How do they do it?

[radio]

Can somebody explain, how non-stop users like top level amateurs and pro BB-ers taking large amounts of AAS, year in year out, and still have kids, and sucsesfuly come off steroids one day and live a normal life without being seriously ill?

 

[Beelzebub]

i highly, highly doubt they come off completely. HRT comes to mind. also, low sperm count isn't a definate for everyone, just a probability just like anything else. deoudes posted a few studies a month or so ago where fertility was restored with high doses of HCG.

also, one thread is enough brutha.

 

[Beelzebub]

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61. Related Articles, Links


Comment in:
• Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.

Menon DK.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

 

[Beelzebub]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1985 Oct;61(4):746-52. Related Articles, Links


Male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism: factors influencing response to human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin, including prior exogenous androgens.

Ley SB, Leonard JM.

Although testosterone (T) therapy is sufficient for maturation and maintenance of secondary sex characteristics in hypogonadal men, gonadotropins are required for stimulation of spermatogenesis. Thirteen men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism received treatment with hCG, followed in 12 by the addition of human menopausal gonadotropin (hMG). All initially had undetectable serum LH and FSH and low T levels and were azoospermic with small testes. During therapy, all achieved normal male levels of T. Twelve of 13 had marked and continuous increase in testicular volume. Three men had sperm in the ejaculate with hCG treatment alone. All but 1 patient developed sperm in their seminal fluid during combined hCG and hMG therapy. Two men achieved three pregnancies, and 2 more had semen that produced hamster oocyte penetration assays in the fertile range during the protocol period. Four of 5 who achieved sperm densities greater than 1 million/ml while receiving combined therapy maintained or increased sperm production while receiving continued hCG therapy after hMG was withdrawn. We examined the response to gonadotropin therapy of men who had received previous T therapy and those who had not. There were no differences in rapidity or degree of response, as assessed by rise in serum T, increase in testis volume, or maximal sperm density achieved. Multiple pituitary deficits and cryptorchidism were negative prognostic factors. In summary, the prognosis for successful stimulation of spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism treated with hCG/hMG is good and not adversely affected by prior androgen treatment. Despite undetectable serum FSH levels, hCG treatment was sufficient to both initiate and maintain spermatogenesis in some patients

 

[Beelzebub]

Urology. 2000 Oct 1;56(4):669. Related Articles, Links


Acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism presenting as decreased seminal volume.

Tash JA, McGovern JH, Schlegel PN.

James Buchanan Brady Urology Foundation, Department of Urology, The New York Presbyterian Hospital-Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, New York, USA.

A 32-year-old man with decreased ejaculatory volume was found to have acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Initial evaluation demonstrated castrate levels of testosterone with low serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels. Semen analysis revealed a volume of 0.35 cc and severe oligospermia. Administration of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) did not effect an increase in LH or FSH, indicating a pituitary defect. Magnetic resonance imaging revealed a partially empty sella turcica. Treatment with human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) alone resulted in normalization of testosterone levels, sperm concentration, and semen volume, as well as the successful conception and delivery of a healthy baby girl. The findings from this case demonstrate the importance of considering low serum testosterone levels in the evaluation of low semen volume, as well as the role of hCG alone as an infertility treatment for acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

 

[Rocky82]

Can somebody explain, how non-stop users like top level amateurs and pro BB-ers taking large amounts of AAS, year in year out, and still have kids, and sucsesfuly come off steroids one day and live a normal life without being seriously ill?

It's Russian Roulette like anything else bro. If you look in the current issue of Flex with Johnnie Jackson on the cover you'll see two stories of bodybuilders dying in their 30's. Andreas Munzer died at 31 due to internal bleeding (the roids, GH, and insulin destroyed his liver and since your liver is responsible for manufacturing clotting factors, no clotting factors = hemorrhage) and some guy they called "Momo" died at 33 backstage at a contest due to diuretic abuse (Lasix depletes potassium --> hypokalemia --> deadly arrythmias).

Personally I see no reason to be on all the time. I take about 4-6 months off a year and I'm going to be competing soon. And even friends of mine that compete and take almost no time off are smaller and weaker than me. The only thing that non-stop use seems to afford them is they stay a little leaner. But to be honest, I had some bloodwork done recently and it was downright scary. There's a history of heart disease in my family so I'm finishing up this last week of AAS and just running a few more months of GH. Just to give some perspective, AAS ABUSE is probably the worst thing you can do for your cardiovascular health. It drops your HDL (good chol), raises your LDL (bad chol), raises triglycerides, etc. Hi estrogen states (i.e. using lots of test,anadrol, deca without an AI) lead to hypercoagulable states (blood clots easier --> easier to get a heart attack or stroke), but if you think you're clever and use an AI or something that doesnt aromatize like Tren, this leads to the aformentioned dyslipidemia. So its 6 in one, half dozen in the other in terms of how you want to damage your heart.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that this BBing game is a crap shoot. Unfortunately, if taken to the extreme, you can end up paying with your life. So I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you dont plan on competing, bag the AAS. It's simply not worth it. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Yes...but I've made my own decisions and I feel obligated to share what I've learned. Without getting into details, the one thing that I am 100% sure of is that AAS use is not for everyone, its not for the guys that wanna look good on the beach, its not for young athletes to use so they can please their low life coaches...Its serious stuff and I just happen to feel that the risks are not worth it unless you're making a living off of your bodybuilding efforts/modeling/etc.

Just my $.02

 

[PipeCharger]

No such thing as coming off steroids successfully, and “No” many of us do not live normal lives. I’ve got a room full of trophies, and along with my 15 minutes of fame, I also obtained hardening of the arties, liver and kidney problems, low sperm count, and a hosed-up pituitary gland. But it was one hell of a ride!

 

[Beelzebub]

It's Russian Roulette like anything else bro. If you look in the current issue of Flex with Johnnie Jackson on the cover you'll see two stories of bodybuilders dying in their 30's. Andreas Munzer died at 31 due to internal bleeding (the roids, GH, and insulin destroyed his liver and since your liver is responsible for manufacturing clotting factors, no clotting factors = hemorrhage) and some guy they called "Momo" died at 33 backstage at a contest due to diuretic abuse (Lasix depletes potassium --> hypokalemia --> deadly arrythmias).

Personally I see no reason to be on all the time. I take about 4-6 months off a year and I'm going to be competing soon. And even friends of mine that compete and take almost no time off are smaller and weaker than me. The only thing that non-stop use seems to afford them is they stay a little leaner. But to be honest, I had some bloodwork done recently and it was downright scary. There's a history of heart disease in my family so I'm finishing up this last week of AAS and just running a few more months of GH. Just to give some perspective, AAS ABUSE is probably the worst thing you can do for your cardiovascular health. It drops your HDL (good chol), raises your LDL (bad chol), raises triglycerides, etc. Hi estrogen states (i.e. using lots of test,anadrol, deca without an AI) lead to hypercoagulable states (blood clots easier --> easier to get a heart attack or stroke), but if you think you're clever and use an AI or something that doesnt aromatize like Tren, this leads to the aformentioned dyslipidemia. So its 6 in one, half dozen in the other in terms of how you want to damage your heart.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that this BBing game is a crap shoot. Unfortunately, if taken to the extreme, you can end up paying with your life. So I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you dont plan on competing, bag the AAS. It's simply not worth it. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Yes...but I've made my own decisions and I feel obligated to share what I've learned. Without getting into details, the one thing that I am 100% sure of is that AAS use is not for everyone, its not for the guys that wanna look good on the beach, its not for young athletes to use so they can please their low life coaches...Its serious stuff and I just happen to feel that the risks are not worth it unless you're making a living off of your bodybuilding efforts/modeling/etc.

Just my $.02

rocky, i see the point you're trying to make but you're taking extreme examples to enforce it. we all know damn well the pros take enormous amounts of everything to get on stage and comparing them to what the average cycle is on the boards is ludicrous. achieving a low bf level for that period of time cannot be healthy for anyone. diuretics and abuse of orals is what is killing fools, not injecting a moderate dose test or deca. everything in moderation. hell, you can take too much of damn near anything and keel over, but just like anything, yes, it's dangerous.

lee priest: "is race car driving dangerous, rock climbing, skydiving, riding a motor bike everyday, driving to work, smoking, drinking? more people die every year doing this then in bodybuilding. funny that more people have died driving to the gym than actual people training and using AAS."

filling heads with horror stories of gargantuate (sp?) amounts of AAS will frighten anyone. but the fact is, only a handful of guys in this lifestyle have gotten ill from it, and those were from extreme cases. even masswithclass R.I.P.(competitor that used to hang on the boards) admitted to his reckless usage of orals, diuretics, and stimulants.

the only safe thing to do in life is to sit at home and hope you don't go insane. but that's not living. everything we do involves risk and i believe this lifestyle is the least of our concerns. the least we can do is derive a little happiness and joy for the unknown time that we have here. if taking a little test makes me happy, then **** it, i'll risk it.

 

[Beelzebub]

fwiw, there is zero proof that AAS usage had anything to do with munzer's death. if i go and trip over my shoestrings and break my neck, did AAS cause that? i'm using so it must be.

 

[Apowerz6]

Rocky first off the cytadren is what killed Munzer, secondly god bless the dead but Lasix is a game that Momo played with before and played again and lost. its good that you are educating us, but do you educate others on the use and abuse of other illicit substances? or alcohol or smoking? Coming dwon on us and others is not going to change a thing, and with the questions of normal life BB'ing is not a normal type of art or sport, so really what do you expect?

 

[Beelzebub]

oh, let's say munzer did die from AAS usage. this is supposedly his last cycle (how they get this **** i dunno).

who on AM is using this?

his is the last cycle that Andreas Munzer took before he died

Weeks 1-10
ephedrine
aspirin
clenbuterol
valium
captagon-- scheduled 1 drug in the US, meaning no legitimate medical use-- it is an amphetamine-type stimulant--
cytomel

Weeks 1-5
500mg daily of test enanthate
152mg daily of parabolan
150mg daily of dianabol
150mg daily of halotestin
20 IU daily of HGH
20 IU daily of Insulin

Weeks 6-8
300mg daily of masteron
152mg daily of parabolan
250mg daily of winstrol tabs
150mg daily of halotestin
50mg daily of winstrol inj
24 IU daily of HGH

Weeks 9-10
200mg daily of masteron
100mg daily of winny inj
200mg daily of halotestin
400mg daily of winny tabs
24 IU daily of HGH
Insulin daily
IGF-1 daily

Days 1-3 leading up to show
aldactone, lasix

 

[Beelzebub]

Cytadren abuse was a theory, but no autopsy was ever performed. This was the release on his death:

March 1996 Munzer dies at 31.

After departing from a flight that took him from the US back to Germany, popular pro Andreas Munzer went into severe physical distress and died later at a local hospital from almost complete and total organ failure.

Some preliminary reports alleged that Munzer, a known steroid abuser, was taking a drug to thicken his blood (EPO - Erythropietin) in order to appear more vascular on the posing stage. Like blood doping, EPO promotes supercompensation of glycogen in the muscles. Cosmetically this is appe****g to bodybuilders because they can appear as full as possible.

Sadly doctors believe that Munzer allowed himself to become too dehydrated in the process of using the drug. The interactions with other drugs he was taking, coupled with the long flight just made it worse. After landing and beginning to drink water again, his blood could not recover fast enough and it caused extensive organ failure.

Early reports that the 31 year old Munzer's stomach exploded were false.
However, total organ failure, particularly congestive heart failure, causes distorition of body proportions and a distended belly.

 

[Rocky82]

Just as an aside, I wasnt coming down on anyone, I was just offering my take on the AAS game to anybody just reading through the boards thinking of starting.

 

[Apowerz6]

HALO FOR 10 weeks!!! and thanks beelz for clearing that up, I stand corrected. And no one i know is using any of that for any long peoids of time, and i know national level competitiors...

 

[radio]

No such thing as coming off steroids successfully, and “No” many of us do not live normal lives. I’ve got a room full of trophies, and along with my 15 minutes of fame, I also obtained hardening of the arties, liver and kidney problems, low sperm count, and a hosed-up pituitary gland. But it was one hell of a ride!

Can you go into a bit more detail mate? What age are you? How long were you using anabolics for? did you cycle on and off ? What was a typical cycle of yours like? What is actually wrong with your liver kidneys?

 

[donk120k]

have u all ever considered the fact these guys wifes possible cheat on there husbands and get knocked up. just another posibility of how some of them get children.

 

[CDB]

Weeks 1-10
ephedrine
aspirin
clenbuterol
valium
captagon-- scheduled 1 drug in the US, meaning no legitimate medical use-- it is an amphetamine-type stimulant--
cytomel

Weeks 1-5
500mg daily of test enanthate
152mg daily of parabolan
150mg daily of dianabol
150mg daily of halotestin
20 IU daily of HGH
20 IU daily of Insulin

Weeks 6-8
300mg daily of masteron
152mg daily of parabolan
250mg daily of winstrol tabs
150mg daily of halotestin
50mg daily of winstrol inj
24 IU daily of HGH

Weeks 9-10
200mg daily of masteron
100mg daily of winny inj
200mg daily of halotestin
400mg daily of winny tabs
24 IU daily of HGH
Insulin daily
IGF-1 daily

Days 1-3 leading up to show
aldactone, lasix

I knew he was on something.

 

[Beelzebub]

I knew he was on something.

:lol:

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I see guys all the time with problems due to steroid use. Living in southern florida you see a lot of guys that have been using for 10-20+ years (along with anti-aging clinics everwhere) and the most common problem is with the heart. Guys just keel over in their 50's. When you are constantly above your genetic potential or carry around a lot of weight it taxes your heart more than anything. Couple that with some bulking diets that arne't very clean and its not healthy at all.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

:lol:

Stop posting studies. You are freaking me out



:blink:

 

[Beelzebub]

I see guys all the time with problems due to steroid use. Living in southern florida you see a lot of guys that have been using for 10-20+ years (along with anti-aging clinics everwhere) and the most common problem is with the heart. Guys just keel over in their 50's. When you are constantly above your genetic potential or carry around a lot of weight it taxes your heart more than anything. Couple that with some bulking diets that arne't very clean and its not healthy at all.

would you agree or disagree that if you're getting regular bloodwork (every 3-6 months) that 99% of all problems can be detected before they get out of hand? i would wager that most take their health for granted when using nonstop and since they 'feel' fine, they must be fine. meanwhile, the silent killer (cholesterol) is in the 300-400 range.

 

[Beelzebub]

Stop posting studies. You are freaking me out



:blink:

when my balls are concerned, they do research

 

[CDB]

would you agree or disagree that if you're getting regular bloodwork (every 3-6 months) that 99% of all problems can be detected before they get out of hand? i would wager that most take their health for granted when using nonstop and since they 'feel' fine, they must be fine. meanwhile, the silent killer (cholesterol) is in the 300-400 range.

That's what I would be thinking. I was all for complete OTC legalization of steroids and all other drugs, and still am in principle, until I saw what morons used them and how. I got a friend I've been trying to get off of dianabol for months now because his diet and training suck, he's on blood thinners, had a recent stroke, drinks nonstop, does X and coke, etc. This guy is a walking time bomb which I've tried to explain to him more than once, and he keeps doing dbol cycles. Gives one pause on a lot of things.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

would you agree or disagree that if you're getting regular bloodwork (every 3-6 months) that 99% of all problems can be detected before they get out of hand? i would wager that most take their health for granted when using nonstop and since they 'feel' fine, they must be fine. meanwhile, the silent killer (cholesterol) is in the 300-400 range.

99%? Nope. Most of the long term problems mask themselves as normal "aging". The heart is a very strange organ. You can pass with flying colors all the tests (which bloodwork won't show...you need EKG's, Stress tests, CT scans, and similar tests) then just keel over for no reason due to taxing conditions over time.

Its common sense to me. Increased weight over 10-20 years caused by supraphysiological levels of hormones (even if intermittent) that break genetic limits just isn't healthy for long term health. The weight issue alone throws up red flags.

 

[Beelzebub]

EKG - check
stress test - check
bloodwork - check



the weight thing i can understand though. whether it's muscle or fat, the heart doesn't really give a fvck.

99% was just a number i threw out haphazardly, basically i'm asking if 'most' problems are detectable through proper tests.

note: i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just asking for opinions from the slipknot guy. everyone makes choices, whether smart or not, make your own.

 

[CDB]

99%? Nope. Most of the long term problems mask themselves as normal "aging". The heart is a very strange organ. You can pass with flying colors all the tests (which bloodwork won't show...you need EKG's, Stress tests, CT scans, and similar tests) then just keel over for no reason due to taxing conditions over time.

Its common sense to me. Increased weight over 10-20 years caused by supraphysiological levels of hormones (even if intermittent) that break genetic limits just isn't healthy for long term health. The weight issue alone throws up red flags.

There's a trade off for everything I guess. I'm not a pro, my health is my main concern these days so there's really no reason for me to cycle ever again. I'll stick with my herbals and nonhormonal stuff and be happier for it. And live longer.

Bobo and Beez, what's your opinion of the long term affects of things like IGF and GH? It seems genuine info is even more scarce on their long term effects than for steroids.

 

[Beelzebub]

i haven't come across any long term studies either. bb'ers are guinea pigs for the most part as the two are relatively new to the market (especially IGF).

IMO, things that supposedly cause hyperplasia are bound to have some negative consequences, whether large or small is yet to be determined.

 

[CDB]

i haven't come across any long term studies either. bb'ers are guinea pigs for the most part as the two are relatively new to the market (especially IGF).

IMO, things that supposedly cause hyperplasia are bound to have some negative consequences, whether large or small is yet to be determined.

You would think so. All I could find was a couple studies on animals which if I remember right went for a few months with no negative side effects observed, but since it's the abstracts only I have no idea how far they went in their observations.

 

[CHAPS]

Everyone has made some good points and from what i've read Andreas Munzer died from his epo use, he hoped on a plane to fly home and flying apparently can dehydrate you and this caused his blood to literally go to cottage cheese. I don't think steroid use done right will cause problems but steroid abuse i'm sure it will. The reason you hear pro's dieing most of the time isn't steroids it's the other drugs they use like EPO, insulin, and powerful diaretics. If your getting blood work done a couple times a year and taking the proper support supplements it think you should be ok with minimal ill effects. But we do live a pretty extreme lifestyle and the body can only take so much.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

deoudes posted a few studies a month or so ago where fertility was restored with high doses of HCG.

best studies ever.. changed our lives huh?

fact is, if you are running HCG on cycle (whether that 'cycle' is eternal or not) you sperm count will probably be higher provided that you never shutdown. so, it might actually be the reverse - competitive BBers might actually be at higher risk of impregnating women.

HMG also raises sperm count beyond belief, I basically have come to think infertility is more genetic than anything.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

99%? Nope. Most of the long term problems mask themselves as normal "aging". The heart is a very strange organ. You can pass with flying colors all the tests (which bloodwork won't show...you need EKG's, Stress tests, CT scans, and similar tests) then just keel over for no reason due to taxing conditions over time.

Its common sense to me. Increased weight over 10-20 years caused by supraphysiological levels of hormones (even if intermittent) that break genetic limits just isn't healthy for long term health. The weight issue alone throws up red flags.

makes sense, that's why no orals for me. :wave:

 

[CHAPS]

CED love the avatar bro, lol. That's my favourite movie, that scene alone is worth the price of the dvd, lol.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

so many good lines in it too

 

[glenihan]

i don't believe for a second that was Munzer's real cycle .. just the amount of pokes necessary would be ridiculous .. IMHO just another internet rumor started by some 160lb cybernerd

and beelzey baby i know you weren't claiming its authenticity

 

[Rocky82]

Wait, you guys dont shoot 20 IU of insulin a day precontest while carb depleting???


TBH i believe the variety of drugs is realistic, just not the doses. It makes sense that he was chasing the T3 with benzo's like valium and whatnot, but some of those doses are just stupid.

 

[Beelzebub]

i don't believe for a second that was Munzer's real cycle .. just the amount of pokes necessary would be ridiculous .. IMHO just another internet rumor started by some 160lb cybernerd

and beelzey baby i know you weren't claiming its authenticity

it does look ridiculous but i don't KNOW that it's false. i do know of some insane usage from real-life personal friend of mine who is aiming for his pro-card in 2 weeks. and it's a total different mindset than what we discuss on the boards. to him, it's not "wow, this is a lot of ****", it's more of "this is what i need to take to get what i want". risk doesn't even enter the equation.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

true, we (not I) give people a hard time for taking M1T here.

 

[CHAPS]

And as far as the amount of "pokes" well i've seen an ifbb pro on another board doing something like 30 shots a day between gear, insulin, gh, synthol, igf-1, mgf etc.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

I did 7 shots in one day.. don't ask.

 

[CHAPS]

OUCH, and i'm askin! What were those shots? If your a competitor using site enhancement protocols with synthol and the like then your injections with increase fast, like to use synthol for your chest for example you need to do 9 shots per pec, EACH day!