Pheraplex cycle - opinions needed.

[msucurt]

Hello all. Long time lurker...posted several times. Anyway, here is my proposed cycle of PP, along with PCT. I have done many, many hours of extensive research and have come up with the following for my cycle. I would appreciate any knowledgeable advice from anyone that has personally done a PP Cycle. I am not going to stack this with anything, as i want to see how my body responds to PP alone.

Just for starters:
age: 32
wt: 205
ht: 5'11
yrs. training : 5yrs
cycle: 1st

Preload
• Milk thistle...hawthorne berry....CoQ10


CYCLE :
wk1. 10 PP
wk2. 20 PP
wk3. 20 PP
wk4. 20 PP (30 maybe, will see how my body reacts)




PCT OPTION #1

Week 5: Nolva(40mg)….RXT(75mg)…AX PCT (4 caps)…fenugreek(1.8g)
Week 6: Nolva(40mg)….RXT(50mg)…AX PCT(4 caps)….fenugreek(2.4g)
Week 7: Nolva(20mg)….RXT(25mg)…AX PCT(2 caps)….fenugreek(3.0g)
Week 8: Nolva(20mg)….RXT(25mg)….AX PCT(2 caps)…fenugreek(3.6g)

PCT OPTION #2

Week 5: nolva(40mg)....ATD(75mg)....activate....fenugreek(3g)
Week 6: nolva(40mg)....ATD(50mg)....activate....fenugreek(2.5g)
Week 7: nolva(30mg)....ATD(50mg)....activate....fenugreek(2.0g)
Week 8: nolva(20mg)....ATD(25mg)....activate....fenugreek(2.0g)

PCT OPTION #3

SUGGESTIONS??





SUPPS WHILE ON CYCLE:
• AX perfect cycle
• Hawthorne berries
• Milk thistle
• Fish oils
• Multivitamin
• Red yeast rice
• Saw palmetto
• CoQ10
• Policosinol
• Fenugreek
• Celery seed(BP)
• Odorless garlic
• Vit. B (acne)

would love some feedback on this complete cycle. I want to make sure everything is in order before i begin...because i will not start this until i am very confident that this cycle is correct and i have all supplements needed...even PCT supplements. I am ordering everything now.

thanks in advance:nutkick:
msucurt

 

[bda55]

I did 4 weeks 20mg PP and was very happy with it, I gained 15.5lbs, kept about 12 of em after PCT.

IMO PCT option #1 is definately overkill, even option 2.. Hell, from what I see, there's people using less stuff after a 12 week AAS cycle and still recovering good.


I think 3 weeks PCT is enough, something like this:

Week 5 - 40mg Nolva + 25mg RXT + 2.5g Fenugreek
Week 6 - 30mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek
Week 7 - 20mg Nolva + 75mg RXT + 3.5g Fenugreek

EDIT: here's a link to DR.D's explanation of why to ramp down the SERM and ramp up the AI: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/306567-post11.html

PS: I had zero sides from PP, I LOVED it

 

[jonny21]

PCT OPTION #1

Week 5: Nolva(40mg)….RXT(75mg)…AX PCT (4 caps)…fenugreek(1.8g)
Week 6: Nolva(40mg)….RXT(50mg)…AX PCT(4 caps)….fenugreek(2.4g)
Week 7: Nolva(20mg)….RXT(25mg)…AX PCT(2 caps)….fenugreek(3.0g)
Week 8: Nolva(20mg)….RXT(25mg)….AX PCT(2 caps)…fenugreek(3.6g)

Definitely not this one. A SERM +2 AI's is not necessary.

 

[msucurt]

thanks bda. Im thinking of this option #3 now. What do you and anyone else think of the 3 options

PCT OPTION #3

week 5: nolva 40....RXT 75....Fenugreek 2g
week 6: nolva 30....RXT 50....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST --->(HOW MUCH??)
week 7: nolva 20....RXT 25....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST
week 8: nolva 10....RXT 25....Fenugreek 3g.......DieselTEST

*********************OR******************************

week 5: nolva 40.....RXT 25....fenugreek 2.5g....DIESELTEST---->(HOW MUCH?)
week 6: nolva 30.....RXT 50....fenugreek 3.0g....DIESELTEST
week 7: nolva 20.....RXT 75....fenugreek 3.5g....DIESELTEST

 

[c-los 21]

PCT OPTION #3

week 5: nolva 40....RXT 75....Fenugreek 2g
week 6: nolva 30....RXT 50....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST --->(HOW MUCH??)
week 7: nolva 20....RXT 25....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST
week 8: nolva 20....RXT 25....Fenugreek 3g.......DieselTEST

This one looks good, add an anti-cortisol. There are many great ones out there, such as AX Retain. I have not loss 1lbs of strength or LBM after doing this PCT.

NOLVA 40/30/20/20
RXT 50/50/25/25
Retain 3/3/3/3

FOOD and TRAINING should be your focus as well. You will most likely lose everything(gains) if these two factors have flaws.

Also, Don't stay on 20mg of PP for so long. I'm pretty sure you'll feel confident to increase the dosage to 30mg.

Good Luck

 

[msucurt]

thanks c-los. Ive read many of your posts. U seem very knowledgeable.

thanks bro

 

[Bigfishy]

You might want to consider some hairloss prevention, I used spiro/Nizrol and still lost a noticeable anount of hair. Never had hair problems with any other PH.

 

[UnicronSpawn]

thanks bda. Im thinking of this option #3 now. What do you and anyone else think of the 3 options

PCT OPTION #3

week 5: nolva 40....RXT 75....Fenugreek 2g
week 6: nolva 30....RXT 50....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST --->(HOW MUCH??)
week 7: nolva 20....RXT 25....Fenugreek 2.5g....DieselTEST
week 8: nolva 10....RXT 25....Fenugreek 3g.......DieselTEST

*********************OR******************************

week 5: nolva 40.....RXT 25....fenugreek 2.5g....DIESELTEST---->(HOW MUCH?)
week 6: nolva 30.....RXT 50....fenugreek 3.0g....DIESELTEST
week 7: nolva 20.....RXT 75....fenugreek 3.5g....DIESELTEST

Either of theese looks good to me. Doing the 4th week of pct is mostly a matter of how much money you feel like spending in the name of "insurance". Ive noticed that PCT is quite indvidual, and a regimen that allows one person to keep all their gains might be insufficient for another person. But since this is your first cycle I doubt a 4 wk PP cycle will suppress you bad enough to require more than what you have listed here as long as you remain mindful of your training and nutrition, wich Im sure you will be cuz you'll be psyched about keeping your new gains. (wich are almost always substantial on a first cycle.)
I wish you the best of luck with your first cycle and hope you have good things to report to us in a few weeks......(Mattris)

 

[msucurt]

ok. thanks all. I have a few questions:

1. should i ramp the RXT up or down?
2. what should my dosage be on the DIESELTEST?

thanks

 

[milwood]

ok. thanks all. I have a few questions:

1. should i ramp the RXT up or down?
2. what should my dosage be on the DIESELTEST?

thanks

I used to ramp the ATD up, but now I think I'd run it like this:
(PCT WEEKS)
1. clomid 100, RXT 25
2. nolva 40, RXT 25
3. nolva 30, RXT 25
4. nolva 20, RXT 25

 

[c-los 21]

ok. thanks all. I have a few questions:

1. should i ramp the RXT up or down?
2. what should my dosage be on the DIESELTEST?

thanks

NEVER RAMP UP the RXT dosages.
Always down....75/50/25/25.

 

[PVSkyHigh]

Lean Xtreme by Designer Supplements is another good cortisol blocker, and ActivaTe is also another good alternative to the Diesel Test. I am just giving you other options; there are always two roads to get to the same place....well almost ha!

 

[B5150]

I am not going to stack this with anything, as i want to see how my body responds to PP alone.



Preload
• Milk thistle...hawthorne berry....CoQ10


SUPPS WHILE ON CYCLE:
• AX perfect cycle
• Hawthorne berries
• Milk thistle
• Fish oils
• Multivitamin
• Red yeast rice
• Saw palmetto
• CoQ10
• Policosinol
• Fenugreek
• Celery seed(BP)
• Odorless garlic
• Vit. B (acne)

would love some feedback on this complete cycle.

For goodness sake man. Spend your money on some bloodwork instead of all of this other stuff you will be tossing down your throat. You have everything AND the kitchen sink in that list. You will have no way of having a clue of how your body will respond to PP ALONE...because you have way too much other stuff going on in your body.

My advice:
DROP: Hawthorne berries, Milk thistle, Red yeast rice, Saw palmetto, CoQ10, Policosinol, Fenugreek, Celery seed(BP), Odorless garlic, Vit. B (acne)
ADD: ALA, NAC
PRE-CYCLE: Blood Test.
POST-CYCLE: Blood Test.

If your blood work shows you have pre existant issues don't cycle, or at the very least take some appropriate precautions. If your bloodwork shows no issues then cycle with the anti-o's I recommended. If along the way you experience issues with BP or something else THEN supplement to suppress conditions. If after cycle you find that you have an issue with extreme lipid, prostate or liver in your post cycle test results THEN supplement accordingly.

It has become an epidemic with all of these supplements people are taking. I use ALA, NAC, (Milk Thiste in PCT if oral cycle) and have had no issue at all regarding any bloodwork results.

For goodness sake spend your money on bloodwork.

 

[msucurt]

Ok, i think im going to go with this one. Instead of the DIESELTEST, im going to substitute ACTIVATE. Also may add a cortisol blocker such as RETAIN. If doing this, how would exactly implement in this PCT.

PCT OPTION #3

week 5: nolva 40....RXT 75....Fenugreek 2g
week 6: nolva 30....RXT 50....Fenugreek 2.5g....activate --->(HOW MUCH??)
week 7: nolva 20....RXT 25....Fenugreek 2.5g....activate
week 8: nolva 10....RXT 25....Fenugreek 3g.......activate

where and dosage amount for the retain?

thanks for all the help.

(may get some bloodwork beforehand also)

 

[LCSULLA]

NOLVA 40/30/20/20
RXT 50/50/25/25
Retain 3/3/3/3

I like C-los's plan personally. And I think B5150 has a good point: don't start with the kitchen sink.

 

[msucurt]

NOLVA 40/30/20/20
RXT 50/50/25/25
Retain 3/3/3/3

Ok, may just go with this PCT. So, no fenugreek correct? This option seems the easiest and most thorough IMO....anything else?

 

[msucurt]

think i have decided to go with this PCT. Maybe im wrong, but ive done alot of research and seems alot of people like this particular pct.

Week 5: nolva(40)....RXT(75)....fenugreek(2.0g)
Week 6: nolva(40)... RXT(50)....fenugreek(2.5g)
Week 7: nolva(20)....RXT(25)....fenugreek(2.5g)...activate
Week 8: nolva(10)....RXT(25)....fenugreek(3.9g)...activate

*****INCLUDED IN PCT*****
A.BULK CEE
B.ALL ACCESSORY SUPPLEMENTS
C.HARD TRAINING
D.CLEAN FOOD

* how does this look?
* any other suggestions would be much appreciated

thanks
msucurt

 

[UnicronSpawn]

Looks good to me. Only thing I can think of is you might consider the fenugreek starting at the high and going down so it will be highest when you most need the GnRH, LH, and test stimulation, and maybe even do the first 2 weeks for the activate instead of the last 2. But, I've never used either of the 2 so maybe some past users can chime in to confirm or refute my idea.

 

[msucurt]

After reading quite a few posts here and on other sites, i have a question. I am reading contradictory info. on how to treat the nolva & RXT.

some say this is how it should be done (ramping the RXT up)

nolva 40....RXT 25
nolva 40....RXT 25
nolva 20....RXT 50
nolva 10....RXT 75


some say this is how it should be done.....

nolva 40....RXT 75
nolva 40....RXT 50
nolva 20....RXT 25
nolva 10....RXT 25

what is the consensus? Just want to make sure, and yes, im doing tons of research on this before i conclude this PCT...

thanks
msucurt

 

[bda55]

You'll have to decide for yourself.. I personally had good results with ramping down the nolva and ramping up the RXT, and I did this because of DR.D's reasoning in the post I linked to earlier.

AX recommends to always ramp down the RXT (even when combined with nolva), and if it wasn't DR.D who recommended to ramp it up, I would ramp down myself...

I still think 4 weeks PCT consisting of a SERM + AI for this particular cycle is overkill, but thats just me..

 

[msucurt]

thanks bda55. I think im gonna ramp up the RXT like dr.D says. something like this...

Week 5 - 40mg Nolva + 25mg RXT + 2.5g Fenugreek
Week 6 - 30mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek
Week 7 - 20mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + activate
Week 8 - 20mg Nolva + 75mg RXT+ 3.5g Fenugreek + activate

Im gonna throw in some RETAIN also.

too much? Just want to be safe. I may make the PCT 3 weeks...not sure yet.

thanks

thanks

 

[c-los 21]

thanks bda55. I think im gonna ramp up the RXT like dr.D says. something like this...

Week 5 - 40mg Nolva + 25mg RXT + 2.5g Fenugreek
Week 6 - 30mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek
Week 7 - 20mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + activate
Week 8 - 20mg Nolva + 75mg RXT+ 3.5g Fenugreek + activate

Im gonna throw in some RETAIN also.

too much? Just want to be safe. I may make the PCT 3 weeks...not sure yet.

thanks

thanks

I'm not stating that Dr,D is wrong, nor have I read his views on ramping up RXT. Dr.D might be right, but under these circumstances and after MANY logs andreviews I have clearly determined that yous should ramp down the RXT. MANY other members here and in other forums agree with me. I strongly urge you to ramp down. Many of the delayed gyno issues had the ATD ramped up.
Add Activate the last two weeks of PCT, not at the beginning. Retain during PCT at the dosages I stated before. IMO, this PCT is a bit too much for PP. But I would personally run it this length, better to be on the safe side.

 

[Syr]

My suggestion for cycle and pct:

1) Start the AI at mid of the cycle and continue it for just 2 weeks into pct.

2) I always recommend to use a cortisol blocker for pct.

week 3: PP 20-30, ATD 25mg
week 4: PP 30, ATD 50mg
week 5: ATD 50mg, Nolva 40mg
week 6: ATD 25mg, Nolva 20-30mg
week 7: Nolva 20mg
week 8: Nolva 20mg

weeks 5-8: consider LXT or another good cortisol blocker.

 

[Syr]

I'm not stating that Dr,D is wrong, nor have I read his views on ramping up RXT. Dr.D might be right, but under these circumstances and after MANY logs andreviews I have clearly determined that yous should ramp down the RXT.

I always pyramided ATD and never had a problem (no libido issues, no gyno, nothing bad, just back acne = high test).

 

[Syr]

I may make the PCT 3 weeks...not sure yet.

For a 4 weeks cycle dont make the PCT less then 4 weeks, unless is a very mild compound and PP is not.

If you did PP for 3 weeks then 3 weeks pct would be fine.

 

[msucurt]

Week 5 - 40mg Nolva + 75mg RXT + 2.5g Fenugreek + retain(3)
Week 6 - 30mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + retain(3)
Week 7 - 20mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + retain(3) +activate
Week 8 - 20mg Nolva + 25mg RXT+ 3.5g Fenugreek + retain(3) +activate

I finally think this is what i should go with. Yes, it might be a little overkill, but i would rather be safe here as PP is slightly strong.

What dosage on the activate should i go with?

thanks

 

[Grunt76]

The only scientifically defendable reason for starting PCT with a high dose of ATD would be because you feel the aromatase enzyme has gone crazy during the cycle. I do believe that testosterone has a tendency to do that, and my personal belief is that Pheraplex doesn't do that, but then again it might. This would be interesting to find out.

Barring a major rise in aromatase during the cycle, the AI properties of ATD aren't needed, but its SARM properties are. Since there is no androgen to compete for the hypothalamus' androgen receptors, a small dose of ATD should be sufficient for HPTA stimulation.

OTOH what good is nolva in such a PCT? Estrogen blocker? Let's see: by all and any logic, your estrogen levels should be lower than usual at the end of a PP cycle. PP doesn't aromatize and even if there is aromatase around, there is not much testosterone to aromatize, so I don't think estrogen is the immediate problem. Clomid would be much more useful IMO because it does stimulate testoterone production. Which nolva does NOT.

If estrogen will be a problem, it will be when testosterone is fully back in production and there is no SERM or AI being administered, thus AFTER PCT. Estrogen in males comes almost completely from aromatization of testosterone, doesn't it?

What I would do is

wk5: Clomid 300/200/100x5 - ATD 25x7
wk6: Clomid 100x4/50x3 - ATD 50x7
wk7: Clomid 50x7 - ATD 75x7
wk8: ATD 100x7
wk9: ATD 25x7

Here I use x7 x4 x3 etc. to indicate the number of days @ dose

The wk9 being only to avoid the so-called "issues" from dropping ATD to zero too quick. You'll also notice that this adds up to 77 ATD caps, leaving you with 13. If you have nolva on hand, that makes you perfectly well-equipped to stave off any "delayed gyno" from a possible hyper-stimulation of the HPTA and concomitant high testosterone and thus estrogen levels.

I'd like to mention that there have been no delayed gyno with PP, only with SD and using ATD as PCT. I do believe that because SD is actually so not androgenic, that by it tends to cause estrogen rebound through a possible increase in sensitivity of androgen receptors responsible for aromatase after receiving no stimulus during SD supplementation and also from ATD supplementation during PCT. But that's another story entirely, isn't it?

Moreover, I feel that a 4-week PCT is a little bit of overkill, so IMO you can be very safe not doing week 8 at all and just doing week 9 instead on week 8. And even that isn't needed, but it should make you feel safer from delayed gyno.

 

[msucurt]

grunt...thanks for the input....could u re-arrange your PCT...im a little confused as what u are saying ...sorry

good points though

thanks

 

[bda55]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grunt76 again....

I owe you some

 

[Grunt76]

Done. I'd like some input on the finer points of my previous post though... Let's see.... Who do we bring into this?

 

[c-los 21]

What dosage on the activate should i go with?

thanks

Members and clients always ask this....not sure why.
Follow the directions stated on the bottle.

 

[sogone2day]

Would anyone recommend this person to use a type of DHT/hairloss preventor such as finerstride.

 

[msucurt]

sorry c-los, was just wanting to make sure because most PCT products dont have a recommended dosage. So, with the PCT i have, do you think its an ok PCT for a 4 week PP cylcle?

thanks for your help (everyone so far)

msucurt

 

[meowmeow]

For goodness sake man. Spend your money on some bloodwork instead of all of this other stuff..

My advice:
DROP: Hawthorne berries, Milk thistle, Red yeast rice, Saw palmetto, CoQ10, Policosinol, Fenugreek, Celery seed(BP), Odorless garlic, Vit. B (acne)
ADD: ALA, NAC
PRE-CYCLE: Blood Test.
POST-CYCLE: Blood Test.

If your blood work shows you have pre existant issues don't cycle, or at the very least take some appropriate precautions. If your bloodwork shows no issues then cycle with the anti-o's I recommended. If along the way you experience issues with BP or something else THEN supplement to suppress conditions. If after cycle you find that you have an issue with extreme lipid, prostate or liver in your post cycle test results THEN supplement accordingly.

It has become an epidemic with all of these supplements people are taking. I use ALA, NAC, (Milk Thiste in PCT if oral cycle) and have had no issue at all regarding any bloodwork results.

For goodness sake spend your money on bloodwork.

msucurt I can not believe that you ignored this excellent, excellent counsel.

 

[msucurt]

i havent ignored this. Actuall was looking into the best way to go about getting bloodwork done. Still researching that

thanks for the input meow

msucurt

 

[msucurt]

last bumb.

looking into some bloodwork now. Still doing some reading on the thread about that. But, overall, i hope the PCT looks good. Im excited about starting my cycle of PP.

msucurt

 

[B5150]

Just wanted to point out that people used SERM's for effective PCT long before RXT, ATD, Retain and the likes were developed and made available. Sometimes less IS more. JMHO.

 

[msucurt]

good pt. 5150. What PCT have you used previously in terms of a cycle such as PP, and that was effective?

just like hearing other thoughts....especially yours and a few others here.

p.s. Although im sure u think my PCT is overdone a bit, what do u think of it?

thanks
msucurt

 

[UnicronSpawn]

If Im not mistaken all SERMS aid in HPTA regeneration. It was long thought that nolva was for gyno, and clomid was for HPTA regeneration, but I think that might have had to do with what aspects of each drug the early studies happened to look at, and that clomid and nolva were for the most part interchangeable. I'll have to look into it again, but the message I took home was that nolva also aids in HPTA because all SERMS block ER binding at the hypothalamus and subsequently make it think that estrogen is too low and thereby inducing an increase in GnRH. Id have to do a pub med search to verify the clinical support to that, but I remember reading that in Bill Lewellyn's Anabolics 2005.
If that's correct then nolva being that it is a more potent SERM than clomid, shold be even better for HPTA regen......... that being said, there is a recent article on meso that explains why the author of the article believes nolva is outdated and should be eliminated from BB'ers arsenal. I dont remember all his points, but I dont remember being very convinced of its alleged uselessness after reading the article.

 

[Grunt76]

You are correct in what you say. My point is that the estrogen levels should be very low at the end of a cycle of a suppressive hormone that does not aromatize. Hence, the utility of a SERM in the way that you point it out is somewhat moot. These new designer steroids behave VERY differently from injectables and prohormones.

I think clomid directly stimulates the testes. I'm not 100% on this, so I guess I'm asking for clarification from Dr. D, but I remember he said something about a clear superiority of Clomid for PCT because of increased testosterone production stimulation.

 

[msucurt]

oh boy.....so, basically what we are saying is that clomid should be used before, after nolva?

 

[Grunt76]

Rather INSTEAD of.

 

[B5150]

good pt. 5150. What PCT have you used previously in terms of a cycle such as PP, and that was effective?

just like hearing other thoughts....especially yours and a few others here.

p.s. Although im sure u think my PCT is overdone a bit, what do u think of it?

thanks
msucurt

I have used nolva exclusively for several years.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par25.htm

I also always use an anti-cortisol (FL7) 7-OXO.

I don't think yours is really overdone. I am just trying to suggest that simplicty may lead to efficiency.

I have used nolva on all of my cycles, from 4AD, 1-T, M1T, SD, etc etc.

EDIT: I have used DHEA on two occasions.

 

[UberPooper1]

im on a PP cycle 4 weeks at 30mg ED. i will be doing a pct that consits of ... Nolva 60/40/20, DHEA 200/200/100, Fenugreek 3g/4g/5g

 

[msucurt]

thanks for all the replies so far. Im gonna stick with this PCT, as it seems to cover everything.

Week 5 - 40mg Nolva + 75mg RXT + 2.5g Fenugreek + retain(3)
Week 6 - 30mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + retain(3)
Week 7 - 20mg Nolva + 50mg RXT + 3.0g Fenugreek + retain(3) +activate
Week 8 - 20mg Nolva + 25mg RXT+ 3.5g Fenugreek + retain(3) +activate