Poll: Which offers the best longterm mass gains?

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Test/Deca v.s. Test/Tren

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    Test/Deca v.s. Test/Tren


    Ok, test/deca is usually considered the cycle for bulking, while test/tren is viewed as more of a clean lean mass gain/cutter cycle. However, lately, I've been getting good feedback on the pct maintenance of weight gained on a test/tren cycle. Which do you think offers the best longterm gains in mass, test/deca or test/tren?

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    I dunno if it has to do with the GH im stacking it with, but as soon as I added tren to my test/eq/HGH cycle my weight jumped 7 lbs from where it had been for a week and has stayed there. Strength is off the charts too. Deca is a little bit easier on your HPTA and while it shuts you down, it doesnt do so as hard as tren. But honestly there's no comparison between tren and anything else. IMO, theres really no reason to use anything but tren and test. Your diet and cardio will determine whether its a bulker or cutter.
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    What part of San Diego are you from the42nd?
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    Deca is a little bit easier on your HPTA and while it shuts you down, it doesnt do so as hard as tren
    From what Ive read, Deca still shuts you down pretty hard. In addition to being detectable in your system for up to a year.

    BV
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    a little bit of everywhere, but currently, encinitas
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    Quote Originally Posted by the42nd
    a little bit of everywhere, but currently, encinitas
    I'm over in San Marcos myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    From what Ive read, Deca still shuts you down pretty hard. In addition to being detectable in your system for up to a year.

    BV
    yeah but how how long is tren detectible? I haven't heard how long for tren but ive heard up to 18 months for deca
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    Quote Originally Posted by NevrEnuf
    yeah but how how long is tren detectible? I haven't heard how long for tren but ive heard up to 18 months for deca
    I've heard that for tren ace it's only a 4-5 week detection time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    From what Ive read, Deca still shuts you down pretty hard. In addition to being detectable in your system for up to a year.

    BV
    Absolutely not, the reason that Tren and Deca shut you down so hard are the progesterone sides. They are both progesterone derivatives and both shut you down harder for that reason alone. And ya Tren Ace is around 4 weeks and Nandrolone Decanoate is approx 18months.
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    Tren is the god of all AS, Test is king... NOTHING beats Test/Tren/Dbol IMO...
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    wow im doing that cycle test tren and dbol cant wait with winny in the end i cant wait im pumped
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    There is a perfectly good reason to use Deca as opposed to Tren:

    Joints

    Deca lubricates joints and typical doses for Deca cycles increase collagen synthesis by almost 300%. That means your joints actually increase in strength. Those two combined will allow you to move heavier weights with less risk of injury.

    THAT is the reason to use Deca over Tren. Tren, conversely, will dry you out, and I have never seen anything attributing Tren to increased collagen synthesis or enhanced joint repair.


    At a certain point, you HAVE to pay attention to your joints, and if you really are serious about training and diet, you will reach that point rather quickly. Joint injuries mean a whole lot of muscle lost and sometimes can end careers. For bulking, a time when I really want to hit the weights heavy and hard, Deca will be king as far as I'm concerned. Tren may have it's place here and there, but Deca will be at the forefront of every bulking cycle for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    There is a perfectly good reason to use Deca as opposed to Tren:

    Joints

    Deca lubricates joints and typical doses for Deca cycles increase collagen synthesis by almost 300%. That means your joints actually increase in strength. Those two combined will allow you to move heavier weights with less risk of injury.

    THAT is the reason to use Deca over Tren. Tren, conversely, will dry you out, and I have never seen anything attributing Tren to increased collagen synthesis or enhanced joint repair.


    At a certain point, you HAVE to pay attention to your joints, and if you really are serious about training and diet, you will reach that point rather quickly. Joint injuries mean a whole lot of muscle lost and sometimes can end careers. For bulking, a time when I really want to hit the weights heavy and hard, Deca will be king as far as I'm concerned. Tren may have it's place here and there, but Deca will be at the forefront of every bulking cycle for me.
    interesting point, good input
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    Shouldnt bromocriptine help with the sides associated with tren?

    Any thoughts on taking an oral with tren ace? Such as 1-AD, Pheraplex, ergomax, superdrol?
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    Quote Originally Posted by unitas27
    Shouldnt bromocriptine help with the sides associated with tren?

    Any thoughts on taking an oral with tren ace? Such as 1-AD, Pheraplex, ergomax, superdrol?
    1ad is horribly outdated and so mild compared to the others you listed. If you can't get dbol or even if you start your cycle with dbol you can end it with pp or sd to bridge between pct and last injection or use them to start.
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    1ad is out dated because it works i guess when something works there is an old saying if aint broken dont fix it so i say 1 AD IS NOT outdated maybe your advice is outdated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unitas27
    Shouldnt bromocriptine help with the sides associated with tren?

    Any thoughts on taking an oral with tren ace? Such as 1-AD, Pheraplex, ergomax, superdrol?
    Dunno about the others but i wouldnt stack Tren with SD unless you plan on joining the preiesthood. Your soldier wont salute for a good while.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ad man
    1ad is out dated because it works i guess when something works there is an old saying if aint broken dont fix it so i say 1 AD IS NOT outdated maybe your advice is outdated.
    tell me you're jus kiddin around bro, not nockin its value, i know you apparantly must have a strong affection for 1ad as it is your screen name but plain and simple it is a weak prohormone.
    Hell i can walk to the gym, i been walkin forever my legs aint broke, or i could drive there and achieve the same result!!!

    Lets say dudes 200lbs or close to it, hes gonna have to take like minimum of 4-6 pills to see anything at all in 4 weeks, or take 2 sd pills and get results in days, not to mention 1ad only converts to something else once you injest it any so why not cut out the middle man.
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    Tren, tren, tren.....
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    IMO, tren hands down. If I could only use one drug (besides test) tren would be it. Although deca is better for the joints as stated, tren is better for strength and mass gains IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throw2far
    Tren is the god of all AS, Test is king... NOTHING beats Test/Tren/Dbol IMO...
    Yep!
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    I lkove the feeling I get on Test stacked with the Tren!
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    Quote Originally Posted by IFIWAS
    I lkove the feeling I get on Test stacked with the Tren!
    I hate the feeling personally. I can't stand how I feel on Tren. I'm cranky and easily agitated. I get preposterously horrible cystic acne on my upper back and all over my traps and shoulders. I get night sweats.

    It builds muscle, yeah, but you know what? Taking a higher dose of something else would do just as well for building muscle and wouldn't give me the sides. Tren for me will only be useful durin contest prep. Even then, I'm thinking in the future I might go with EQ and Winny instead. The acne on tren has been almost unbearable.
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    I normally never have an acne problem with tren. I guess it effects everyone different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpparts2000
    I normally never have an acne problem with tren. I guess it effects everyone different.
    All the power to you...and in my book thats even more a reason it should be in all your cycles lol j/k...Or am I!!??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throw2far
    Tren is the god of all AS, Test is king... NOTHING beats Test/Tren/Dbol IMO...
    Not true...Tren, Test, Dbol, and GH is one of my favs...Never been bigger or stronger
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    im running both deca and tren with test......i know call me crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by x_muscle
    im running both deca and tren with test......i know call me crazy.
    Be careful and watch the prolactin. I would recommend getting to Cabergoline to have on hand. At the first sign of ANY kind of gyno, run the Cab along with Nolva, and don't stop running the Cab until the end of the cycle.
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    Test+Tren hands down i'm using it for a cutter right now and i'm actually gaining muscle and building strength, it's just plain awesome. I'll have a hard time not including it in every cycle and Test+Tren+d-bol is definetly on my to do list. I can't even imagine the size and strength gains when bulking, and the nicest part is it's all nice quality muscle.
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    Ive heard Tren is for the users wwith much experience with injectables, does everyone agree?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump
    Ive heard Tren is for the users wwith much experience with injectables, does everyone agree?
    tren enanthate only needs to be injected twice a week, but tren acetate needs ed or eod injections..

    I have read that tren really dries out the joints which is why i have shyied away from it thus far...
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    Tren/Deca would be a prolactin/shutdown nightmare then???
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    what about ten and boldenone isnt it better than tren and test
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumbras
    what about ten and boldenone isnt it better than tren and test
    idk man, i wouldn't run anything without test but ask the vets on there, i know i have heard of some guys on here running test/tren/eq tho, crazy gear
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    i am actually in the process of deciding between a test/tren and test/deca cycle.....it will be during the ice hockey season this winter so i'm thinking maybe the deca with the tren joint problems...i am also deciding between anadrol and dbol as my oral kickstart
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    I'd love to see more on the cabergoline/tren connection. What dose of the cab with 75 mgs/day of tren?? Does the cab help with the loss of sex drive??
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    Test/Tren...
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    Never used Deca, i love Tren now, only problem i have is it messes with me sleep.
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    this is taken from the steroid profiles on steroid.com, sorry its a longish but tells you everything you need to know about tren.
    "The drug trenbolone acetate is, without a doubt, the most powerful injectable anabolic steroid used by bodybuilders to gain muscle. However the full properties of the drug are not always fully understood. This profile will separate fact from fiction and help you decide if trenbolone is right for you.

    Trenbolone is similar to the highly popular steroid nandrolone, in that they are both 19-nor steroids, meaning that a testosterone molecule has been altered at the 19th position to give us a new compound. Unlike nandrolone however trenbolone is an excellent mass and hardening drug with the majority of gains being muscle fiber, with minimal water retention (1) It has an unbelievable anabolic (muscle building) score of 500. When you compare that to testosterone, which itself is a powerful mass builder, and has an anabolic score of 100 you can begin to fathom the muscle building potential of trenbolone. What makes trenbolone so anabolic? Numerous factors come into play. Trenbolone greatly increases the level of the extremely anabolic hormone IGF-1 within muscle tissue (2). And, it´s worth noting that not only does it increase the levels of IGF-1 in muscle over two fold, it also causes muscle satellite cells (cells that repair damaged muscle) to be more sensitive to IGF-1 and other growth factors(3). The amount of DNA per muscle cell may also be significantly increased (3).

    Trenbolone also has a very strong binding affinity to the androgen receptor (A.R), binding much more strongly than testosterone (4). This is important, because the stronger a steroid binds to the androgen receptor the better that steroid works at activating A.R dependant mechanisms of muscle growth. There is also strong supporting evidence that compounds which bind very tightly to the androgen receptor also aid in fat loss. Think as the receptors as locks and androgens as different keys, with some keys (androgens) opening (binding) the locks (receptors) much better than others. This is not to say that AR-binding is the final word on a steroid´s effectiveness. Anadrol doesn´t have any measurable binding to the AR& and we all know how potent Anadrol is for mass-building.

    Trenbolone increases nitrogen retention in muscle tissue (5). This is of note because nitrogen retention is a strong indicator of how anabolic a substance is. However, trenbolone´s incredible mass building effects do not end there. Trenbolone has the ability to bind with the receptors of the anti-anabolic (muscle destroying) glucocorticoid hormones (6). This may also has the effect of inhibiting the catabolic (muscle destroying) hormone cortisol (7).

    Yet another amazing trait of trenbolone that must be noted is its ability to improve feed efficiency and mineral absorption in animals given the drug (8). To help you understand what this means for you, feed efficiency is a measurement of how much of an animals diet is converted into meat, and the more food it takes to produce this meat, the lower the efficiency. Conversely, the less food it takes to produce meat the, higher the efficiency& well you get the idea. Animals given trenbolone gained high quality weight without having their diet adjusted, thus improving feed efficiency. Finding new compounds which can improve feed efficiency is a billion dollar industry, and has spawned many nutritional advances in the bodybuilding world over the last few decades (CLA, Whey Protein, and HMB are compounds which spring to mind as having first been introduced by the livestock industry). What does this translate to for the hard training athlete? The food you eat will be better utilized for building lean muscle, and vitamins and minerals are also better absorbed which may keep you healthier during cycle.

    Trenbolone is also a highly androgenic hormone, when compared with testosterone, which has an androgenic ratio of 100; trenbolone´s androgenic ratio is an astonishing 500. Highly androgenic steroids are appreciated for the effects they have on strength as well as changing the estrogen/androgen ratio, thus reducing water and under the skin. As if the report on trenbolone was not good enough, it gets better; Trenbolone is extraordinarily good as a fat loss agent. One reason for this is its powerful effect on nutrient partitioning (9). It is a little known fact is that androgen receptors are found in fat cells as well as muscle cells(10), androgens act directly on the A.R in fat cells to affect fat burning.(11) the stronger the androgen binds to the A.R, the higher the lipolytic (fat burning) effect on adipose tissue (fat)(11). Since some steroids even increase the numbers of A.R in muscle and fat (11, 12) this fat loss effect would be amplified with the concurrent use of other compounds, such as testosterone.

    Trenbolone promotes red blood cell production and increases the rate of glycogen replenishment, significantly improving recovery (13). Like almost all steroids, trenbolones effects are dose dependant with higher dosages having the greatest effects on body composition and strength. Mental changes are a notorious side effect of trenbolone use(15), androgens increase chemicals in the brain that promote aggressive behavior(16), which can be beneficial for some athletes wanting to improve speed and power.

    Trenbolones chemical structure makes it resistant to the aromatize enzyme (conversion to estrogen) thus absolutely no percentage of trenbolone will convert to estrogen. Trenbolone administration would not promote estrogenic side effects such as breast tissue growth in men (gynecomastia, ***** tits) accelerated fat gain, decline in fat break down and water retention trenbolone. Trenbolone is also resistant to the 5- alpha-reductase enzyme, this enzyme reduces some steroid hormones into a more androgenic form, in trenbolones case however this does not matter, trenbolone boasts an androgenic ratio of 500, it can easily cause adverse androgenic side effects in any steroid.com members who are prone cases of hair loss, prostate enlargement, oily skin and acne have been reported. Unfortunately trenbolones potential negative side effects do not end there. Trenbolone is also a noted progestin: it binds to the receptor of the female sex hormone progesterone (with about 60% of the actual strength progesterone) (17). In sensitive steroid.com members this can lead to bloat and breast growth worse still, trenbolones active metabolite17beta-trenbolone has a binding affinity to the progesterone receptor (PgR) that is actually greater than progesterone itself (18). No need to panic though, the anti-estrogens letrzole or fulvestrant can lower progesterone levels, and combat any progestenic sides. The use of a 19-nor compound like trenbolone also increases prolactin& . bromocriptine or cabergoline are often recommended to lower prolatin levels (20). Testicular atrophy (shrunken balls) may also occur; HCG used intermittently throughout a cycle can prevent this. (21) It is also wise for Tren users to closely monitor their cholesterol levels, as well as kidney function and liver enzymes, as Tren has the potential to negatively affect all of those functions. Trenbolone, being a powerful progestin, will also shut down natural testosterone production which even a relatively small dose and keep the testosterone level suppressed for an extended period of time, this can lower libido and cause erectile dysfunction (fina ****). It is essential that you always stack trenbolone with testosterone.

    The acetate ester is a very short-chain ester attached to the trenbolone molecule. It has an active life of 2-3 days but to keep blood levels of trenbolone elevated and steady, daily injections are often recommended. The acetate ester provides a rapid and high concentration of the hormone which is beneficial to those seeking quick gains, coupled with a rapid clearing time the acetate ester can be discontinued on the onset of adverse side effects.

    Evidence suggests that trenbolone when stacked with estrogen promotes more weight gain that trenbolone alone(22), now I´m not telling you to go pop some birth control with your trenbolone but the addition of aromatizing orals such as dianabol and a long estered testosterone such as cypionate or enanthate would produce great gains in a bulking cycle. For a cutting cycle trenbolone is the best choice you have; trenbolones powerful effect on nutrient shuttling allows a user to restrict calories and remain in a state of positive nitrogen balance (remember what that means?). The cortisol reducing effect and binding to the glucocorticoid receptor will greatly reduce the catabolic effects of harsh dieting and excessive amounts of cardio& not to mention that trenbolone itself may burn fat (due to it´s strong AR-binding). A good choice to stack with tren in a cutting cycle is Winstrol. Winstrol has a low binding affinity to the AR and thus will act in your body in vastly different ways than the Tren (i.e. in non-receptor mediated action). In addition, Winstrol is a DHT-based drug and Tren is a 19-nor& throw in some Testosterone (prop), and you´ll have a cutting cycle which takes advantage of all 3 major families of Anabolic Steroids (Testosterone, 19-nor, and DHT), as well as vastly different AR-binding affinities and mechanisms of action.

    Ironically, even though Tren is an excellent contest prep drug, it lowers your thyroid level(23), and this raises prolactin. I recommend taking T3 (25mcgs/day) along with your Tren to avoid elevating your prolactin too high via this route.

    Also, this drug is a poor choice for athletes who rely on cardiovascular fitness to play a sport. Tren, anecdotally at least, reduces many athletes ability to sustain high levels of endurance. Unfortunately, this makes Tren a poor choice for many."

    cheers
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    I guess I would go the deca route.
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