Who Has real Proof Halodrol has DMT in it?

[Dr. Death]

I have heard all these rumors that Halodrol has 50% DMT. Some say 25% DMT. Where is the proof? Is there a link of a lab test that was done or is this all hear say?

 

[yeahright]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901636.html?nav=rss_sports

 

[Dr. Death]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901636.html?nav=rss_sports

I have seen that article before but it does not reveal the percentage or the actual lab test.

 

[yeahright]

I have seen that article before but it does not reveal the percentage or the actual lab test.

No it doesn't give details on the percentage....but the lab used and the lab tester are the most sophisticated in the world. They are the ones that sports federations go to when trying to identify previously unidentified substances. We may not agree with their perspective on whether people should be allowed to use these substances, but there is no denying that their science is top notch.

 

[Alpine]

Regardless of what % it was that was the FIRST BATCH (a small one). Didnt you notice the supply lag? It was cross-contamination at the chinese chem source. We would probably all be amazed to see all the **** that ends up in half of these "sourced" compounds we are taking. Do you have any idea of the shitholes these companies are sourcing this stuff from? Obviously not, its not some super hi-tech chem lab here in the states. Think china, malyasia, brazil... I think its safe to assume the problem has since been rectified or at least reduced to negligible levels. Gaspari payed a major public price for it. They arent going to repeat this again. I dont see what all the fuss is about anyway. Ya its an oopsy, ya its been fixed. DMT works too, its not like a god damn filler or carcinogen. Worst case scenerio? 30mg of the actual OT-like precursor and 20mg of DMT - wow doesnt sound that bad to me. Just like stacking it with PP. I highly doubt it was even close to that anyway.

Get over it.... its not even an issue anymore. I get the bad feeling half of you are either idiots or under 21. Either way, you shouldnt be fucking with AAS (make no mistake, these are AAS).

Flame Away!

 

[jonny21]

Get over it.... its not even an issue anymore. I get the bad feeling half of you are either idiots or under 21.
Flame Away!

Ok. I guess you feel your advanced age of 23 makes you some kind of expert about anything. I have read numerous posts that you have made and to be honest I think maybe you need to get the hampster that died up your ass out of there. You are consistently rude, arrogant and for the most part misinformed.

There is no need to say **** like that about people just looking for information. There are no stupid questions just stupid people, and you are definitley case in point. Please try treating people on this board with a little more respect regardless of their inexperience or what for you appear to be stupid posts.

 

[Dr. Death]

Regardless of what % it was that was the FIRST BATCH (a small one). Didnt you notice the supply lag? It was cross-contamination at the chinese chem source. We would probably all be amazed to see all the **** that ends up in half of these "sourced" compounds we are taking. Do you have any idea of the shitholes these companies are sourcing this stuff from? Obviously not, its not some super hi-tech chem lab here in the states. Think china, malyasia, brazil... I think its safe to assume the problem has since been rectified or at least reduced to negligible levels. Gaspari payed a major public price for it. They arent going to repeat this again. I dont see what all the fuss is about anyway. Ya its an oopsy, ya its been fixed. DMT works too, its not like a god damn filler or carcinogen. Worst case scenerio? 30mg of the actual OT-like precursor and 20mg of DMT - wow doesnt sound that bad to me. Just like stacking it with PP. I highly doubt it was even close to that anyway.

Get over it.... its not even an issue anymore. I get the bad feeling half of you are either idiots or under 21. Either way, you shouldnt be fucking with AAS (make no mistake, these are AAS).

Flame Away!

First of all i hope you were not calling me a idiot. Second of all i am over ten years older than you. Third i did not buy this product to use dmt. If i wanted dmt i would have bought pheraplex. 50% dmt is alot. That is like 25 mgs. OT is not androgenic. Dmt is.

 

[ryano]

Ok. I guess you feel your advanced age of 23 makes you some kind of expert about anything. I have read numerous posts that you have made and to be honest I think maybe you need to get the hampster that died up your ass out of there. You are consistently rude, arrogant and for the most part misinformed.

There is no need to say **** like that about people just looking for information. There are no stupid questions just stupid people, and you are definitley case in point. Please try treating people on this board with a little more respect regardless of their inexperience or what for you appear to be stupid posts.

Jeez what jonny said...

You sound like a fart smeller
I mean a smart fellow...maybe just a little lacking in social skills... ease up a little. :saw:

 

[yeahright]

First of all i hope you were not calling me a idiot. Second of all i am over ten years older than you. Third i did not buy this product to use dmt. If i wanted dmt i would have bought pheraplex. 50% dmt is alot. That is like 25 mgs. OT is not androgenic. Dmt is.

Exactly....and not to mention the fact that this causes some unintentional methyl stacking....AND we don't know what batch the Washington Post tested. All we know is that it was from the first run.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We're all taking this stuff TRUSTING that it's not actually Chinese rat poison. The companies putting it out need to do their own quality control before capping the raws they receive AND IF THEY DON'T (or worse, overlook bad test results to make a quick profit), they should be hounded out of the supplement business alltogether.

We had the tanning booth operator come out of nowhere to suddenly be selling Promagnon-25.

We now have a similar situation with the new Board Sponsor Generic Labz. They come out of nowhere with clones of well-known ALRI products at higher doses and lower prices. When asked to provide lab results for their products - they respond with "WINK WINK, we're well connected, we get our raws directly from ALRI." OK, this is probably true and I'm assuming there are people in the know of this board who have confirmed this, BUT MY GOD, can we get a little sanity here!?! Even if these products ARE what they claim to be, they do powerful things to the body and SOMEONE should be doing some batch testing and posting the results because sooner or later, something terrible is going to slip through the sloppy atmosphere we're operating in, someone is going to get hurt bad or killed, and then the government boom is going to drop. This industry needs to police itself if it doesn't want the government to come kicking doors in.

 

[megadose]

Exactly....and not to mention the fact that this causes some unintentional methyl stacking....AND we don't know what batch the Washington Post tested. All we know is that it was from the first run.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We're all taking this stuff TRUSTING that it's not actually Chinese rat poison. The companies putting it out need to do their own quality control before capping the raws they receive AND IF THEY DON'T (or worse, overlook bad test results to make a quick profit), they should be hounded out of the supplement business alltogether.

We had the tanning booth operator come out of nowhere to suddenly be selling Promagnon-25.

We now have a similar situation with the new Board Sponsor Generic Labz. They come out of nowhere with clones of well-known ALRI products at higher doses and lower prices. When asked to provide lab results for their products - they respond with "WINK WINK, we're well connected, we get our raws directly from ALRI." OK, this is probably true and I'm assuming there are people in the know of this board who have confirmed this, BUT MY GOD, can we get a little sanity here!?! Even if these products ARE what they claim to be, they do powerful things to the body and SOMEONE should be doing some batch testing and posting the results because sooner or later, something terrible is going to slip through the sloppy atmosphere we're operating in, someone is going to get hurt bad or killed, and then the government boom is going to drop. This industry needs to police itself if it doesn't want the government to come kicking doors in.

i agree but it's all about the money isn't it

 

[Alpine]

Ok. I guess you feel your advanced age of 23 makes you some kind of expert about anything. I have read numerous posts that you have made and to be honest I think maybe you need to get the hampster that died up your ass out of there. You are consistently rude, arrogant and for the most part misinformed.

There is no need to say **** like that about people just looking for information. There are no stupid questions just stupid people, and you are definitley case in point. Please try treating people on this board with a little more respect regardless of their inexperience or what for you appear to be stupid posts.

No, im not trying to be elitest or pretend im an expert. Im just saying use your fucking head. I'm tried of reading moronic posts. You can be 37 and still be a fucking idiot. We have many shining examples of that. Call me an ass...sorry. Its been discussed a million times and its a dead subject now. If one actually wanted the answers they were available here at at many other boards. It's been discussed a lot. To top it off the % doesnt even matter since its highly unlikely anyone who bought any after like Dec. 25 is getting that first questionable batch anyway. My tone was a lil harsh.... sorry. Im not attacking anyone specifically. Just chill, your precious cyber egos are safe.

 

[ryano]

Clueless

 

[jonny21]

Im just saying use your fucking head. I'm tried of reading moronic posts. You can be 37 and still be a fucking idiot....

Everybody just chill the **** out. Your cyber ego is safe....

It is obvious you have very little control over your emotions. If you find the questions, posts, thoughts of another member moronic simply move onto the next thread. There is no need to use expletives and call people idiots.

It also appears that it is your ego that feels threatened hence the need to show everyone that they are wrong using a hammer. So take your own advice.

Why don't you try to help people understand? all you had to do is state what you just did:
"The % doesnt even matter since its highly unlikely anyone who bought any after like Dec. 30 is getting that first questionable batch anyway"

finis, peace

 

[swole210]

It is obvious you have very little control over your emotions. If you find the questions, posts, thoughts of another member moronic simply move onto the next thread. There is no need to use expletives and call people idiots.

It also appears that it is your ego that feels threatened hence the need to show everyone that they are wrong using a hammer. So take your own advice.

Why don't you try to help people understand? all you had to do is state what you just did:
"The % doesnt even matter since its highly unlikely anyone who bought any after like Dec. 30 is getting that first questionable batch anyway"

finis, peace

WORD! Exactly what Jonny said:clap2:!

 

[Alpine]

jonny21: point taken. I need to work on being "nicer".

Wading through horseshit to read the decent posts has just worn my patience thin. I made quit a few unkind posts last night. I'm more calm now I think this is as good as it gets though. Again, sorry for snapping.

btw, I dont think my posts are that bad. Maybe a lil short sometimes . I've made some good posts (trying to help) besides these lately. Well, except for that Ross jackass and his magic non supressing D-var. lool. I'll continue to flame someone for posting misinformation as fact. I do it for the children - I swear!

 

[ryano]

jonny21: point taken. I need to work on being "nicer".

Wading through horseshit to read the decent posts has just worn my patience thin. I made quit a few unkind posts last night. I'm more calm now I think this is as good as it gets though. Again, sorry for snapping.

Must be all those steroids:rofl:

 

[Beau]

This board is great. The people are really informed and helpful.

There is an enormous amount I don't know, I'm smart enough to know that. Thus, I reach out to those that know more that me. When I know something that might help others, I offer it. If I have some type of Steve Martin-esque stupid comment to something that is a bit odd, I offer that too - believing a little levity is a good thing.

When people look for information, they are trying to expand their knowledge; in my mind, also a good thing.

Rather than bash someone, I would ignore a post that I find either misguided, or covers something I am all too familiar with.

If people asking well-intended questions or raising thought-provoking issues/converns irritates you - you mighht opt to find another forum; one better suited to what you are looking for, and comprised only of great intellects.

I, for one (in addition to using the search function) will ask whatever I think meaningful and hope for a response from someone receptive.

 

[delta314]

Must be all those steroids:rofl:

You mean they actually affect your personality???hehehe:twisted:

 

[delta314]

This board is great. The people are really informed and helpful.

There is an enormous amount I don't know, I'm smart enough to know that. Thus, I reach out to those that know more that me. When I know something that might help others, I offer it. If I have some type of Steve Martin-esque stupid comment to something that is a bit odd, I offer that too - believing a little levity is a good thing.

When people look for information, they are trying to expand their knowledge; in my mind, also a good thing.

Rather than bash someone, I would ignore a post that I find either misguided, or covers something I am all too familiar with.

If people asking well-intended questions or raising thought-provoking issues/converns irritates you - you mighht opt to find another forum; one better suited to what you are looking for, and comprised only of great intellects.

I, for one (in addition to using the search function) will ask whatever I think meaningful and hope for a response from someone receptive.

I've said this before; :The only stupid question is one you didn't know the answer too, and were to ignorant to ask..."

 

[ryano]

jonny21: point taken. I need to work on being "nicer".

Wading through horseshit to read the decent posts has just worn my patience thin. I made quit a few unkind posts last night. I'm more calm now I think this is as good as it gets though. Again, sorry for snapping.

btw, I dont think my posts are that bad. Maybe a lil short sometimes . I've made some good posts (trying to help) besides these lately. Well, except for that Ross jackass and his magic non supressing D-var. lool. I'll continue to flame someone for posting misinformation as fact. I do it for the children - I swear!

Not good enough...

you must hurt yourself now:frustrate

 

[Alpine]

Not good enough...

you must hurt yourself now:frustrate

:icon_lol:

 

[delta314]

:icon_lol:

Hey Alpine, He really meant it! We want digital pictures of you hurting yourself:gore:

 

[Alpine]

Hey Alpine, He really meant it! We want digital pictures of you hurting yourself:gore:

Lets not get carried away. I said I was sorry for not wearing my kitten handling gloves.

delta314: http://ponchsays.ytmnd.com lool

 

[delta314]

Lets not get carried away. I said I was sorry for not wearing my kitten handling gloves.

delta314: http://ponchsays.ytmnd.com lool

hehehe:twisted:

 

[delta314]

delta314: http://ponchsays.ytmnd.com lool

Only for you sweetie:FUfinger:

 

[meowmeow]

...Wading through horseshit to read the decent posts has just worn my patience thin. I made quit a few unkind posts last night. I'm more calm now I think this is as good as it gets though. Again, sorry for snapping.

I'm sorry son, but it turns out that life is all about wading through horseshit until your patience is worn thin all the while maintaining the resolve to remain calm without snapping.

 

[Beau]

Actually, the expression is “kid gloves”, not kit, kitten or even kitten handling.

"Kid gloves" are made from the skin of a young goat or lamb or similar. These gloves were softer and finer than gloves made from harder leathers, and became a symbol of elegance and gentility in the early 1800s. The term "handle with kid gloves" thus means to be very gentle or tactful. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term was first used in that sense (or written, anyway) in the 1830s.

So, rather than bash the mistaken or uninformed, I think it makes more sense to help out - even if it means a little wading is required.

 

[swole210]

Actually, the expression is “kid gloves”, not kit, kitten or even kitten handling.

"Kid gloves" are made from the skin of a young goat or lamb or similar. These gloves were softer and finer than gloves made from harder leathers, and became a symbol of elegance and gentility in the early 1800s. The term "handle with kid gloves" thus means to be very gentle or tactful. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term was first used in that sense (or written, anyway) in the 1830s.

So, rather than bash the mistaken or uninformed, I think it makes more sense to help out - even if it means a little wading is required.

:blink: .......LOL!

 

[delta314]

Maybe he does have "kitten handling gloves",...those cats can be dangerous!!!!!!:icon_lol:

 

[BodyWizard]

I'm sorry son, but it turns out that life is all about wading through horseshit until your patience is worn thin all the while maintaining the resolve to remain calm without snapping.

it's called 'grace under pressure' - more and more, it's a survival skill.

 

[BKneller]

I have seen that article before but it does not reveal the percentage or the actual lab test.

Finally! Someone with a shred of sanity and intelligence enough to ask for a verifiable lab report before repeating a bunch of horseshit! You bros. would do well to follow Dr. D's example here. He's not saying H-50 is gold or good or even not "contaminated with 86% DMT". All he is asking for is "proof of if and how much" which is a pretty simple thing to ask and is something everyone should be asking the next time they go apopleptic over this. What is "significant"? 0.5%? 5%? 50%? Can't sue someone if they use a vague adjective. If they found 0.0001% DMT in it well, in their eyes that might be "significant" where I would laugh it off as a f*cking joke!

Ever wonder why no specific percentage or milligram amount was given?

I have an original, SEALED box of H-50 and I am waiting for Rich to send me a box from the new lot (sealed - although does it matter? I mean, how can I "fake" a tablet that has been blister packed anyhow?). Then...off to the lab to check them out for DMT contamination and the results, good or bad, will be made available to anyone who wants it. Sam from NP will get results as will one of the bigger distributors who I met with and asked us to do this.

Unbiased lab results. Don't get any clearer than this, does it?:study:

BK

 

[Dr. Death]

Finally! Someone with a shred of sanity and intelligence enough to ask for a verifiable lab report before repeating a bunch of horseshit! You bros. would do well to follow Dr. D's example here. He's not saying H-50 is gold or good or even not "contaminated with 86% DMT". All he is asking for is "proof of if and how much" which is a pretty simple thing to ask and is something everyone should be asking the next time they go apopleptic over this. What is "significant"? 0.5%? 5%? 50%? Can't sue someone if they use a vague adjective. If they found 0.0001% DMT in it well, in their eyes that might be "significant" where I would laugh it off as a f*cking joke!

Ever wonder why no specific percentage or milligram amount was given?

I have an original, SEALED box of H-50 and I am waiting for Rich to send me a box from the new lot (sealed - although does it matter? I mean, how can I "fake" a tablet that has been blister packed anyhow?). Then...off to the lab to check them out for DMT contamination and the results, good or bad, will be made available to anyone who wants it. Sam from NP will get results as will one of the bigger distributors who I met with and asked us to do this.

Unbiased lab results. Don't get any clearer than this, does it?:study:

BK

Thanks Bruce. I have a few of the original boxes and i would like to know the percentage before i take the stuff. Let us know when you have the results.

 

[swole210]

Finally! Someone with a shred of sanity and intelligence enough to ask for a verifiable lab report before repeating a bunch of horseshit! You bros. would do well to follow Dr. D's example here. He's not saying H-50 is gold or good or even not "contaminated with 86% DMT". All he is asking for is "proof of if and how much" which is a pretty simple thing to ask and is something everyone should be asking the next time they go apopleptic over this. What is "significant"? 0.5%? 5%? 50%? Can't sue someone if they use a vague adjective. If they found 0.0001% DMT in it well, in their eyes that might be "significant" where I would laugh it off as a f*cking joke!

Ever wonder why no specific percentage or milligram amount was given?

I have an original, SEALED box of H-50 and I am waiting for Rich to send me a box from the new lot (sealed - although does it matter? I mean, how can I "fake" a tablet that has been blister packed anyhow?). Then...off to the lab to check them out for DMT contamination and the results, good or bad, will be made available to anyone who wants it. Sam from NP will get results as will one of the bigger distributors who I met with and asked us to do this.

Unbiased lab results. Don't get any clearer than this, does it?:study:

BK

I never for a second even beleived a shred of what that Washingtone post bullshit said. I mean who the hell knows what they tested, and as you stated Bruce, what is a "significant" amount to them?! Any how, I really question the valididty of their tests, being it that that bitch..ooopps, lady reporter over there is on some agenda to help sensationalize stroids as the most evil thing on the face of this planet which is going to ruin and kill all the kids! So you producing test results is a great thing, not tooo mention that it shows you have pure confidence that your product is legit, and that it is good. Well, DMT or not, I loved the stuff:twisted: ! THANKS!

 

[Bigfishy]

I was a little sketchy of gaspari due to PA tounge lashings early on, but the more I see the more i like. Nice work on the lab tests and congrats on several great products (sizeon and halodrol). Keep up the good work Bruce!

 

[Beowulf]

It is ironic that the very same Post article that everyone so profoundly despised is also being used as credibility for contamination claims.

 

[swole210]

It is ironic that the very same Post article that everyone so profoundly despised is also being used as credibility for contamination claims.

What is your whole take on this Beowulf?

 

[yeahright]

It is ironic that the very same Post article that everyone so profoundly despised is also being used as credibility for contamination claims.

Well, I for one despised the political spin of the article but I have no doubt whatsoever in the validity of the testing done. Those folks who did the testing are the best in the world and they have no incentive to fudge them (to them DMT and OT are equal evils) - and their testing did nail down a pretty darn good description of the main active in Halodrol.

The DMT contamination could have happened anywhere along the supply chain from the chinese chemical house on. Many of these companies use the same supplier, distributers, cappers, etc. Now, we don't know whether the contamination was vanishingly trivial or high enough to make everyone take pause because they didn't print that in the article.

It's a mistake to discount someone's technical expertise because we disagree with their political perspective.

 

[BKneller]

It's a mistake to discount someone's technical expertise because we disagree with their political perspective.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and as soon as you can provide me with a quantitive statement regarding EXACTLY what "significant" means as either a percentile or absolute in mg I will drop the issue from the boards.

FYI - Gaspari is sending me out a box of "new H-50" to send off to SRCS or AAE to "test for DMT" along with the old batch (different lot#'s).

BK

 

[Beowulf]

Well, I for one despised the political spin of the article but I have no doubt whatsoever in the validity of the testing done. Those folks who did the testing are the best in the world and they have no incentive to fudge them (to them DMT and OT are equal evils) - and their testing did nail down a pretty darn good description of the main active in Halodrol.

The DMT contamination could have happened anywhere along the supply chain from the chinese chemical house on. Many of these companies use the same supplier, distributers, cappers, etc. Now, we don't know whether the contamination was vanishingly trivial or high enough to make everyone take pause because they didn't print that in the article.

It's a mistake to discount someone's technical expertise because we disagree with their political perspective.

I was simply making the point that it is ironic. I don't doubt there is DMT in it. How much? (rhetorica)

We all want to learn the same info.

 

[BigP0ppa3]

there are no stupid questions, but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots!

:nutkick:

BP

 

[bearmeat]

Is there an ETA for the lab reports?

Also, I originally read the percentages in a post made by Patrick Arnold on MuscleGurus.

 

[BKneller]

Is there an ETA for the lab reports?

Also, I originally read the percentages in a post made by Patrick Arnold on MuscleGurus.

I have to wait until I get a sample box for the 2nd batch lest someone claim I only tested batch #1 to hide something.

I hope to have it by the end of the week (a box that is).

I will have both batches tested for DMT, THG, and (stupidly just to shut people up) TMG.

The results, whatever they may be, will be made public after that.

I'd like to have them before the Arnold Classic but a lot will depend on when the lab can assay them.

Before March 15th for sure.


Cool?


BK:blink:

 

[BKneller]

Is there an ETA for the lab reports?

Also, I originally read the percentages in a post made by Patrick Arnold on MuscleGurus.

I just got a sealed box of the new (2nd) batch. Thus I have a box of each batch made.

1st (old) is LOT# 82407 with an
EXP.DATE: 10/2007 (these appear on the back between the silver and light blue lines).

2nd (new) is LOT# 82743 with an
EXP.DATE: 01/08 (these appear on the side tab in the dark blue box).

I sent an e-mail to SRCS today asking them to test both for DMT/THG/TMG and I am waiting for them to get back to me.

If anyone does not want me to use SRCS and has a better lab for me to send these two sealed boxes to, please let me know ASAP.

Results will be posted as soon as SRCS agrees to conduct the tests and does them, irrespective of the results, good or bad.

OK?


BK:woohoo:

 

[bigpetefox]

Sounds good, brother!! :thumbsup:

 

[sogone2day]

I can't wait for this.

 

[swole210]

I just got a sealed box of the new (2nd) batch. Thus I have a box of each batch made.

1st (old) is LOT# 82407 with an
EXP.DATE: 10/2007 (these appear on the back between the silver and light blue lines).

2nd (new) is LOT# 82743 with an
EXP.DATE: 01/08 (these appear on the side tab in the dark blue box).

I sent an e-mail to SRCS today asking them to test both for DMT/THG/TMG and I am waiting for them to get back to me.

If anyone does not want me to use SRCS and has a better lab for me to send these two sealed boxes to, please let me know ASAP.

Results will be posted as soon as SRCS agrees to conduct the tests and does them, irrespective of the results, good or bad.

OK?


BK:woohoo:

Awesome Bruce!! Hopefully this will shut a lot of nay sayers up!

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

its great that bruce is doing this but I still dont see the problem with dmt being in halodrol. isnt that a bonus?

 

[KD1]

its great that bruce is doing this but I still dont see the problem with dmt being in halodrol. isnt that a bonus?

Well if it turns out the intended active ingredient does nothing, and all of the gains attributable to the produce were from DMT wouldent you feel somewhat cheated?

 

[yeahright]

its great that bruce is doing this but I still dont see the problem with dmt being in halodrol. isnt that a bonus?

I think the concern is about possible health effects from unintended methyl stacking.

 

[BKneller]

I think the concern is about possible health effects from unintended methyl stacking.

Uhm...no. You're way off here. I understand and agree with your concern about Halodrol "being" Halodrol. But the "methyl stacking" thing is a bunch of horse dookey.

DMT and Halodrol are probably very similar WRT to hepatic insult. DMT is probably a little worse but not significantly.

Stacking 20mg of DMT with 30mg of Halodrol is probably no worse for your liver than 50mg of Halodrol alone.

Bro, do not take this as a personal insult as it is meant for far many more other than you. But when are you going to wake up and separate fact from fiction? Until this happens or unless this happens, people are going to get hurt and this type of freedom of choice and sovereignty over our destinies are going to be severely curtailed under the false guise of "helping us because we are too stupid to help ourselves". I do not think we are too stupid. Just too lazy :nono:


BK