Formasin

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    Formasin


    IM very impressed with this stuff...its working great to control the perky nips and excessive bloating on my T1 cycle. I take two formasin, and 3-4 hours later the symptoms have subsided.

    BigVrunga

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    where can you get it?
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    Originally posted by 2cAnnons
    where can you get it?
    I suspect it is pretty widely carried by Internet retailers. Two I know of that do are 1fast400.com and MuscleShoppe.com. Slightly cheaper at MuscleShoppe.
    •   
       

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    ************.com has it for a good price as well, thats where I got it.
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    thats good im glad to hear this because i havent heard many reviews on it and i was planning on trying it myself.
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    I hadn't heard any reviews either, so I figured Id put a post on on its effictiveness. I took 2 Formasin 2 days in a row,then took 2 days off and just today the 4AD bloat returned.

    Its also supposed to exert a minimal anabolic effect, but I dont know how noticeable that would be with the 1test/4AD in your system.

    Its good stuff, definately worth consideration.

    BigV
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    Thanks BigV, I've been thinking about it for a high dose 4-AD cutting cycle, but haven't heard much of anything about it so far. I'm interested in it for bloat control, and after reading the massive arguments between Bill L and Pat A over at BB.com....well you just end up more confused than when you started. Could be very promising, as well as Aromazap.
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    dosing


    What's the best dosing for taking Formasin?

    2 tablets per day? Only to be used during the cycle or ok afterwards?
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    I havent read any of those arguments I try to stay out of it Those guys are brilliant and have brought us many great products, but they're both in business to make money, you know?

    I havent checked out Aromazap yet, that's from Syntrax, right? I have some of their FUZU to use post cycle alongside 6-oxo/Nolva, I have heard good things about it.

    I think it was Wardog who mentioned using Viratase to control bloat on a 1200mg/day 4AD cycle for cutting. He said it worked great, and from what Ive read Formasin is supposed to be more effective.

    On that much 4AD, Id be have some nolva on hand too...

    Later
    BigVrunga
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    Re: dosing


    Originally posted by CableMan67
    What's the best dosing for taking Formasin?

    2 tablets per day? Only to be used during the cycle or ok afterwards?
    its only to be used during cycle.. not post cycle
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    Originally posted by BigVrunga
    I havent read any of those arguments I try to stay out of it Those guys are brilliant and have brought us many great products, but they're both in business to make money, you know?

    I havent checked out Aromazap yet, that's from Syntrax, right? I have some of their FUZU to use post cycle alongside 6-oxo/Nolva, I have heard good things about it.

    I think it was Wardog who mentioned using Viratase to control bloat on a 1200mg/day 4AD cycle for cutting. He said it worked great, and from what Ive read Formasin is supposed to be more effective.

    On that much 4AD, Id be have some nolva on hand too...

    Later
    BigVrunga
    Yeah, they are both nuts I try not to read their posts anymore, I usually end up with a headache or chuckling.

    Aromozap is Syntrax, yes. Haven't heard anything on it yeat, either. Wardog is who gave me the idea for the cycle, and if formasin works better than viratase than this could be a good summer cut cycle (no bloat and ready to hump any woman in sight) I'm thinking around the same doses, maybe 1000 or 1200 mg/day. It's either that or this 7-keto/1-test brew in the R&D section (or maybe some odd combo of both, who knows). Definitely nolva, gotta love liqua-solutions
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    Yeah, they are both nuts I try not to read their posts anymore, I usually end up with a headache or chuckling.

    Aromozap is Syntrax, yes. Haven't heard anything on it yeat, either. Wardog is who gave me the idea for the cycle, and if formasin works better than viratase than this could be a good summer cut cycle (no bloat and ready to hump any woman in sight) I'm thinking around the same doses, maybe 1000 or 1200 mg/day. It's either that or this 7-keto/1-test brew in the R&D section (or maybe some odd combo of both, who knows). Definitely nolva, gotta love liqua-solutions
    Either one sounds like a good idea. I havent read too much on 7-keto/1test though. Ill have to check it out. If I remember correctly, Wardog really liked the 4AD cutting cycle...it seems like a great idea. Simple, too.
    I hear you on the 4AD libido boost. My god man! Ive always been an active kinda guy, but this stuff is pushing me over the edge! 400mg/day with 200mg/day 1test, and Im chasing my girlfriend all over the house, like every hour! Sheeit, I had to bump my diet up by 500 calories just to make up for the energy expenditure

    Molecular nutrition also sells 4-hydroxyandrostendione(Formasin ) as 'Formastat', check it out:

    bodybuilding.com/store/mn/form.html

    They even say that viratase '...can't even come close'

    Im not going to cut for a while, Ive kind of maintained a 'comfortable' bulking BF% and Im going to stay this way and keep growing until Im sure when I cut down Ill be ripped and over 205lbs.
    Definately considering the 4AD route (with possibly a very small amount of 1test) when I get there.

    BigV
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    Originally posted by BigVrunga

    Definately considering the 4AD route (with possibly a very small amount of 1test) when I get there. 
    I feel that 1-test is better for lean gains than 4AD, considering the water gain from 4ad has to be blocked somehow,(hence the reasons for this thread, aye?)..

    My personal opinion: I wouldn't use 4AD to cut, even though I never had an issue of estrogen build-up.. Straight 1-test all the way, or trenbolone..

    MOO!
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    I feel that 1-test is better for lean gains than 4AD, considering the water gain from 4ad has to be blocked somehow,(hence the reasons for this thread, aye?)..
    From what Ive read and experienced with the two I would agree with you - but if you are sensitive to 1test's sides (like hair loss), then 4AD w/anti e might be a viable alternative - if the goal was just to help retain the lean mass that you already have.

    The majority of people who experience hair loss with 1test seem to see it the 2nd time they cycle it...it would suck to get lean and mean, only to get lean, mean, and BALD!

    Im going to stay this way and keep growing until Im sure when I cut down Ill be ripped and over 205lbs.
    By the time i get here, PHs of all sorts will probably be banned, so I wont have to worry about it anyway.

    BigVrunga
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    But, I look good bald...

    I got ya, brother.. Makes sense..
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    Originally posted by bigpetefox
    [B]But, I look good bald...
    I think that I would My brother does and we have the same shaped head

    Ive been in touch with the guys at wholesalehairproducts.com, and they say that users of 1test/4AD that are using 2%spiro/azelic acid/minoxidil5%/Nizoral are even regrowing hair ON CYCLE.

    If that's the case, a mild dose of 1test would definately be preferrable.

    BigV
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    Just thought I'd chime in here, I'm getting ready to try a transdermal preparation of Formestane(drug in Aromazap, Formasin, Formastat).

    In studies, Formestane has been shown to be rather ineffective when taken orally. Yet, much more effective when injected intramuscularly(a simple search of PubMed would turn up these studies). Of course, IM and transdermal share these beneficial qualities!

    Of note, I do believe Formestane has a molecular weight of 302. But, then again, that data was obtained from a "chinese chem lab" so, you can be the judge of that! But, if they're correct, Formestane should be capable of being administered transdermally successfully and at much lower quantities than its oral counterpart! I'll give you guys some feedback of real-world results soon though...

    Likewise, end of my current cycle, I'm going to run a 6-oxo transdermal as well. Last time I ran 6-oxo orally and I broke out moderately on my shoulders/traps, so I'll let that be the judge of the efficacy of the transdermal administration!(so scientific, I know, but it should suffice!)
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    That sounds like some interesting research, chosen5! Definately keep us posted on the results!!

    2 weeks into cycle, and the Formasin taken orally is still proving to be effective at controlling the excess estrogen sides...especially the bloating.

    I have no idea how effective it would be at controlling gyno-related problems. But, if thats a concern, then having nolvadex on hand would really be the best (and only) option.

    The transdermal application sounds very interesting, as it could be mixed right into a bottle of T4 (once the proper dosage is calibrated), for a estrogen-side free cutting cycle.

    Have you tried it orally at all?

    Thanks for the post!
    BigVrunga
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    Originally posted by BigVrunga
    Have you tried it orally at all?
    Yes, I've tried it orally in dosages ranging from 100mg to 250mg(min-max recommended dosages fyi).
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    Chosen5, where are you getting the raws for 6-oxo and formestane?
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    Originally posted by jweave23
    Chosen5, where are you getting the raws for 6-oxo and formestane?
    Somehow I knew this question was going to come up

    I'm just going to pour the contents of the capsules into some bdc gel.
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    Originally posted by chosen5

    Somehow I knew this question was going to come up

    I'm just going to pour the contents of the capsules into some bdc gel.
    ok, I wouldn't recommend that though because of the fillers used in encapsulating, Chemo has some good posts regarding 6-oxo powder from caps, I'm not sure which forum they went to though, I'll look.
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    Originally posted by chosen5
    I'm just going to pour the contents of the capsules into some bdc gel.
    If you are going to do this, I recommend filtering the filler from the caps, before adding to the topical gel.

    I have done this with 6-OXO, and have been running it topically for the past 2 weeks. It is working quite well.

    I haven't tried it with formestane, but I have successfully filtered both 3-Alpha caps and Viratase caps (both by Molecular), so I would guess that it should work just fine.
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    Originally posted by ShadowJack


    If you are going to do this, I recommend filtering the filler from the caps, before adding to the topical gel.

    I have done this with 6-OXO, and have been running it topically for the past 2 weeks. It is working quite well.

    I haven't tried it with formestane, but I have successfully filtered both 3-Alpha caps and Viratase caps (both by Molecular), so I would guess that it should work just fine.
    All that there is to filter out is the micro crystalline cellulose and i thought that the gel had been corrected so as to compensate for the filler.

    This thread deals with the topic of fixing T-Gel to compensate for the binders/fillers: http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...&threadid=1715

    This thread deals with an actual user's issue with binders/filler:
    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...&threadid=1166
    Last edited by chosen5; 04-02-2003 at 04:45 PM.
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    Originally posted by ShadowJack
    I haven't tried it with formestane, but I have successfully filtered both 3-Alpha caps and Viratase caps (both by Molecular), so I would guess that it should work just fine.
    Why would you even filter 3-Alpha, I'd suppose for transdermal administration? 3-Alpha has a 40%+ bioavailability and the gel is roundabouts there at best guestimates.
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    Originally posted by ShadowJack
    If you are going to do this, I recommend filtering the filler from the caps, before adding to the topical gel.

    I have done this with 6-OXO, and have been running it topically for the past 2 weeks. It is working quite well.
    Just out of curiousity, what means did you use to filter and do you happen to know the approx yield? I'd suppose you could/would lose a substantial amount of active if you filtered through a coffee filter and not a whatman.
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    Originally posted by chosen5

    All that there is to filter out is the micro crystalline cellulose and i thought that the gel had been corrected so as to compensate for the filler.
    Iím not certain what the filler that is used in the 6-OXO caps actually is. It looks a lot like a rice bran filler, though.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    This thread deals with the topic of fixing T-Gel to compensate for the binders/fillers: http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...;threadid=1715

    This thread deals with an actual user's issue with binders/filler:
    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...;threadid=1166
    I have read these threads that you have posted. To me, it is not a question of whether you can get the solution to gel properly with the filler left in.

    It is an issue of better absorption. Removing the filler will decrease the amount of powder that has to be dissolved in the gel, and will increase solubility.

    For example, the contents of a 6-OXO capsule weigh ~0.50g. And they are 100mg caps. So, the filler is ~80% of the contents. If the filler is filtered out first, you can dissolve more actual 6-OXO in the gel without over-saturating it.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    Why would you even filter 3-Alpha, I'd suppose for transdermal administration?
    Yes. I ran it topically with 1-test on a 4-week cycle. I'm using the 6-OXO topical for post-cycle.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    3-Alpha has a 40%+ bioavailability and the gel is roundabouts there at best guestimates.
    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.

    BTW, I never mixed Viratase into a topical. I only filtered some as I had part of a bottle remaining, to experiment with filtering a PH, as I had only filtered UA and SU up until that point.


    Originally posted by chosen5

    Just out of curiousity, what means did you use to filter and do you happen to know the approx yield? I'd suppose you could/would lose a substantial amount of active if you filtered through a coffee filter and not a whatman.
    I just used an ordinary coffee filter and iso.

    I canít accurately say what the yield was, but I will give you an estimate. When I first started experimenting with filtering caps, I filtered 2g of SU with some iso, through a coffee filter and into a glass jar (which I weighed beforehand). I then completely evaporated the iso, to the point that the SU was stuck/dried to the bottom and sides of the glass jar. I then weighed this and came up with a difference of 1.9g. At the time, I was using a scale that has only 0.1g accuracy, so the test was far from ideal. But it did give me the confidence that the filtering was 90%+ accurate.

    I didnít repeat the weighing process when I filtered the SU, as I never evaporated the iso. I used the iso/filtered 6-OXO mixture as the base for the topical gel. I guess I am assuming that the 6-OXO filtering is similar to the SU that I filtered in yield, as the actual filtering process went about the same.

    I have since obtained a scale with 0.01g accuracy, so perhaps I will repeat this experiment in the future to try to achieve more accurate numbers.
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    Originally posted by ShadowJack


    Iím not certain what the filler that is used in the 6-OXO caps actually is. It looks a lot like a rice bran filler, though.



    I have read these threads that you have posted. To me, it is not a question of whether you can get the solution to gel properly with the filler left in.

    It is an issue of better absorption. Removing the filler will decrease the amount of powder that has to be dissolved in the gel, and will increase solubility.

    For example, the contents of a 6-OXO capsule weigh ~0.50g. And they are 100mg caps. So, the filler is ~80% of the contents. If the filler is filtered out first, you can dissolve more actual 6-OXO in the gel without over-saturating it.



    Yes. I ran it topically with 1-test on a 4-week cycle. I'm using the 6-OXO topical for post-cycle.



    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.

    BTW, I never mixed Viratase into a topical. I only filtered some as I had part of a bottle remaining, to experiment with filtering a PH, as I had only filtered UA and SU up until that point.




    I just used an ordinary coffee filter and iso.

    I canít accurately say what the yield was, but I will give you an estimate. When I first started experimenting with filtering caps, I filtered 2g of SU with some iso, through a coffee filter and into a glass jar (which I weighed beforehand). I then completely evaporated the iso, to the point that the SU was stuck/dried to the bottom and sides of the glass jar. I then weighed this and came up with a difference of 1.9g. At the time, I was using a scale that has only 0.1g accuracy, so the test was far from ideal. But it did give me the confidence that the filtering was 90%+ accurate.

    I didnít repeat the weighing process when I filtered the SU, as I never evaporated the iso. I used the iso/filtered 6-OXO mixture as the base for the topical gel. I guess I am assuming that the 6-OXO filtering is similar to the SU that I filtered in yield, as the actual filtering process went about the same.

    I have since obtained a scale with 0.01g accuracy, so perhaps I will repeat this experiment in the future to try to achieve more accurate numbers.
    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation ShadowJack, very appreciative! I will filter the 6-oxo(hadn't gotten my scale yet to weigh out how much filler was actually in the product. I hadn't assumed it'd be so high, but as such, I will filter the active for the reason/s you've stated!) Once again a big thank you and I will give feedback on how the 6-oxo and formestane perform as topicals!

    Another question, what dosages of 6-oxo are you running topically ShadowJack?
    Last edited by chosen5; 04-03-2003 at 12:40 AM.
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    Originally posted by chosen5

    Another question, what dosages of 6-oxo are you running topically ShadowJack?
    I filtered one bottle of 6-OXO and made it into a 240ml gel. I am running that over 30 days. One bottle contains 6g of 6-OXO, so that works out to ~200mg per day (using no yield loses in the filtering process).

    Just to compare, PA's study posted on M&M used on oral dosage of 600mg of 6-OXO per day. Now we don't know the exact bioavailability of 6-OXO, but again, I have seen no reason to believe that it is any higher than 4-AD.

    So using 4-AD as a comparison, with an oral bioavailability of ~5%, and a topical absorption of ~30%+, I generally estimate that topical application is ~6x more effective than oral dosing.

    So, the 200mg of 6-OXO per day applied topically would equate to a dosage level of 1200mg/day taken orally, using the above logic. That is twice the dosage that the subjects from PA's study were using, which showed a (more than) doubling of testosterone over a 3-week period.
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    Originally posted by ShadowJack
    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.
    Curious again, what doses did you run of the topical 3-alpha, what did you stack it with, and what were the results? Would you consider buying raw 3-alpha powder from BAC?(beyond-a-century.com), a much cheaper alternative to filtering molecular 3-alpha, or is BAC not "trustworthy."?
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    How was that 3-alpha on your hairline shadowjack?
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    3Alpha was a wonderful supp but it was hard on my prostate. My hair line was not affected.
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    How can you tell when you're having prostate problems from an androgen, ww7? Is it painful urination, etc? Did you take Saw Palmetto while on the 3alpha?

    BigVrunga
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    Originally posted by chosen5

    Curious again, what doses did you run of the topical 3-alpha, what did you stack it with, and what were the results?
    I had a post on this on another board. After reading the following post, if you have any other questions, I will be happy to try to answer them.

    I am currently running a 1-test/3-Alpha topical, that may be of some interest. Systematic, of course. I wish I was smart enough to figure out a localized carrier. 6g of 1-test and 6g of 3-Alpha, applied over a total of 30 days. 200mg of each per day. I've been running it for 3 weeks so far, and I have 1 week left.

    Strength gains have been good, though they have slowed in the last week. I was lifting at maximal loads when I started, however, so I guess I shouldn't expect dramatic increases. It's also been about 3 months straight of 6-day per week lifting, without a week off, so I'm a little burned out, as well. After I get through the final week of this cycle, and 3-4 weeks for post-cycle recovery, I will be taking a week off from lifting, and start something new. I'll be using a 6-OXO topical for post-cycle, with no other anti-e, so it should prove to be a good test of how well 6-OXO works when applied topically. I have used it post-cycle orally in the past, so I have something to compare it to. I'll also be running a 7-Keto DHEA topical, to go along with the 6-OXO.

    Getting back to the 3-Alpha topical, I have never used it orally before, so it is difficult for me to compare. Vascularity and muscle hardness are very good, even though I am on bulking level calories (~5000/day on average). I have gained 10 pounds in the past 3 weeks, and I would say that none of it is water weight. Some of it is fat, of course, although I would say it is limited, as my pants are still fitting very well.

    As far as side effects. Acne is worse than using 1-test alone, or 1-test with 4-AD. Actually, it is the worst acne I have experienced, although it is still not "bad" per se, or anything I would consider to be a major problem. Lethargy is about the same as using 1-test alone. Noticeable, and slightly problematic at times, but nowhere near the major lethargy I get when taking SU or UA.

    The biggest problem that I have had is (workout) stamina. It has gotten worse the longer I have gone in this cycle. It has been very difficult having enough energy to get through a full workout. So, my workouts have taken longer, as I have needed more time in-between sets. Because of this, I have gone to split AM/PM workouts, doing about half each in the morning and at night. This has helped me continue at a high volume and high workout frequency. Recovery between workouts is very good. I'm ready to go again the next day, it's just that during the workout, my recovery in-between sets has not been good.

    Also, joint pain is fairly bad. Worse than I have experienced when using 1-test alone. It hasn't kept me from working out, or forced me to reduce the weights, but near the end of workouts, and definitely right after, it is quite painful at times. The joint pain doesn't last; I'm fine the next day. It is only during and right after lifting. The only time I have experienced worse joint pain is when I was using Viratase on-cycle (with ONE and a 4-AD topical), to eliminate water bloating and itchy nips.

    Blood pressure is definitely up. I haven't actually measured it, but I can tell, as it is normally quite low. Cardio workout stamina is an absolute joke right now. I am having great difficulty getting through HIIT workouts, even at lower duration and intensity than I normally go at. Also, back stiffness is quite bad. I normally get this on-cycle, but it has been worse this time (from the added 3-Alpha?). It's probably as bad at the 3-week point right now, as it has been in the past at the 7-week point on a 1-test/4-AD cycle. So, it has come on sooner than usual for me. The back stiffness is the biggest thing holding me back during HIIT workouts. I'm not really challenging my cardiovascular system to the extent I normally do, because the back pain sets in too quickly for me to reach the intensity that I am used to.

    I think that addresses most of what I have noticed. In conclusion, I like the addition of 3-Alpha. I will be trying it again, but next time during a cutting cycle, as I am presently bulking. Am interested in seeing the results. I may also run 3-Alpha alone, next time, without the 1-test, to get a better feel for what the 3-Alpha can accomplish (by itself). Either way, I will definitely be running it topically, as I have no plans to run 3-Alpha orally.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    Would you consider buying raw 3-alpha powder from BAC?(beyond-a-century.com), a much cheaper alternative to filtering molecular 3-alpha
    BAC sells the 3-beta isomer of 5-AA in bulk powder. Mike (1fast400) has it as well.

    Unfortunately, the only (current) source of the 3-alpha isomer of 5-AA is Molecular, as Bill L. holds a patent on it. Par has posted that he will be offering it soon in bulk powder form. I believe he will be sourcing it directly from Bill.
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    Originally posted by BigVrunga
    How was that 3-alpha on your hairline shadowjack?
    I have been very fortunate in that regard. I have run numerous 1-test cycles over the past year, and not had any adverse effect on the hairline. The 1-test/3-Alpha cycle also did not have a noticeable effect on my hairline.

    This may not apply to everyone though. I'd advise caution if going the 3-Alpha route, especially if you have had any adverse reactions from either 1-test or 4-AD.

    I wouldn't advocate the usage of 3-Alpha as a first PH cycle. Probably better for experienced users, who have a good feel for how PH's effect their system. Also, I wouldn't dose it topically for longer than 4 weeks, due to some of the sides that I mentioned in the post above.
  36. -Dalla Hunga-
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    Also, joint pain is fairly bad. Worse than I have experienced when using 1-test alone. It hasn't kept me from working out, or forced me to reduce the weights, but near the end of workouts, and definitely right after, it is quite painful at times. The joint pain doesn't last; I'm fine the next day. It is only during and right after lifting. The only time I have experienced worse joint pain is when I was using Viratase on-cycle (with ONE and a 4-AD topical), to eliminate water bloating and itchy nips.
    Using Formasin, I havent noticed any joint pain at all. (just as a comparison to the viratase...)

    BigVrunga
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