Anabolic Extreme's "PCT"??

[labambawarrior]

Has anyone tried "Anabolic Extreme's PCT" for pct after a SD cycle? It sounds to be a little better than RXT. Is there any other pct options after a SD cycle (other than Nolva or Clomid which I absolutely cannot get) ? Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

 

[Pioneer]

its Ultra Hotter(or is it hot?) from ALRI, just different name by a different company.

 

[somewhatgifted]

I also cannot get clomid or novaldex so im interested to find out how effective rebound xt and Pct are alone without serms.

 

[BMW]

what do you mean you cant get nolva or clomid? 2 sponsers here sell it:wtf:

 

[CarryOnTheChaos]

what do you mean you cant get nolva or clomid? 2 sponsers here sell it:wtf:

BMW is right man...
:gotsearch

 

[labambawarrior]

Its not that I cant get it. I could if I wanted to, but I must stay legal.

 

[Grunt76]

They aren't illegal for your rat/dog/cat. And if you ingest any, by mistake, or for tasting, then that's not really illegal, it's just a personal choice.

I do agree that more feedback comparing PCT /Uher VS ATD would be good though. I'll be able to give my impressions when I use PCT but it will be compared to Novedex XT which isn't exactly ATD. But close. Feedback?

 

[robbah99]

There seems to be an issue with ATD in the PCT for SD. A lot of people have gotten delayed gyno months after PCT.
Big Cat and some others are discussing it heavily on another board.

 

[Beelzebub]

There seems to be an issue with ATD in the PCT for SD. A lot of people have gotten delayed gyno months after PCT.
Big Cat and some others are discussing it heavily on another board.

alot of ppl? or 2 or 3?

from my experience, rebound (ATD) with lean extreme was the best PCT ever. i don't really see how you could expect more.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

^ exactly!

 

[Grunt76]

What do you boys think of the idea of a SERM declining, "pct"/ATD increasing PCT regimen, with eventual low-dose SERM & "pct"/ATD treatment if ever a rebound shows up? Sounds solid, right?

 

[Beelzebub]

kinda like Dr.D's outline?

 

[Grunt76]

kinda like Dr.D's outline?

Er... I'm not sure I read it, but if Dr. D is reccommending something like that... 'nuff said

 

[Pioneer]

Er... I'm not sure I read it, but if Dr. D is reccommending something like that... 'nuff said

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/422337-post4.html

 

[Grunt76]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/422337-post4.html

I'mma frame that post and put it on my office wall.

 

[Big Cat]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/422337-post4.html

That is the dumbest recommendation I ever heard.

Nolva only masks and an AI doesn't ? Nolva stops estrogen from acting at the Hypothalamic and pituitary levels, when it is withdrawn the estrogen acts again.

With an AI its no different, estrogen is stopped, and when withdrawn, instantly a large amount of test is converted to it again and it acts again. Its basically the same thing. Except :

With an AI you get estrogen depletion and with that both upregulation of the ER and the aromatase enzyme. The result is that you get much more estrogen produced for the same amount of substrate (which lowers test and T:E ratio) and at the same time you are more sensitive to the effects of estrogen.

More importantly the AI may hinder your recovery, whereas nolva aids it more, in other sites of negative feedback. After an androgen cycle, SHBG is depressed, this is a form of negative feedback as SHBG splice variant is needed for sertoli and leydig cell function, and SHBG is needed for conversion of androstenedione to testosterone (that's why we call it HPTA and not HPA). Nolva, because it acts like an estrogen in other tissues, will restore SHBG, while an AI could further reduce SHBG.

Not only will an AI not help, it will likely hinder recovery and prolong it compared to nolva, and it could potentially have side-effects like delayed gyno in a small percentage of people.

 

[BodyWizard]

so, are you down on AIs across the board, or only as a SERM alternative?

 

[Big Cat]

so, are you down on AIs across the board, or only as a SERM alternative?

For me its across the board, but mostly based on experiences I've had in regards to long term increased sensitivity over multiple cycles and because gyno is a rare occurence (not every sensitive nipple is gyno) with normal use of steroids. If it does occur, treatment with a SERM will suffice, so I only deem AI's necessary when a previous cycle demonstrate an over-sensitivity.

But on cycle that is mostly conjecture, I've found no scientific evidence for this prolonged sensitivity, so it pretty much depends on your arguments whether you deem on cycle use of AI's is warranted or not.

I can only truly oppose use of AI's in PCT for aforementioned reasons, which can be proven. They are bad in PCT regardless, worse if they are a replacement for correct PCT as suggested here, but also not advisable in conjunction with PCT. Their benefit is redundant to the effects of SERMS, and at the same time they will have a negative effect in other points in the HPTA.

 

[Pioneer]

wohoo im confused. i think n4cer believes in something like that too.

 

[Nate Dawg]

Nolva, because it acts like an estrogen in other tissues, will restore SHBG, while an AI could further reduce SHBG.

So wouldnt an AI be a benefit since it is reducing SHBG, which is the protein that binds up your testosterone making it "unavailable" to the body, right? So if it is reducing SHBG, you should have more free test in your body I thought....

 

[Big Cat]

So wouldnt an AI be a benefit since it is reducing SHBG, which is the protein that binds up your testosterone making it "unavailable" to the body, right? So if it is reducing SHBG, you should have more free test in your body I thought....

1.The SHBG splice variant is important in leydig and sertoli cell function.

2.SHBG is needed to convert androstenedione to testosterone.

3.SHBG does not bind testosterone just to inactivate it, it buffers testosterone. If not enough SHBG is present testosterone metabolizes. This is also seen when you administer HCG instead of pulsatile HCG, you get a much higher increase in estrogen, compared to testosterone because the substrate is not buffered. That means it will metabolize into DHT or estrogen, both will supress you further, and into hydroxylated substances that are conjugated and excreted.

After a cycle, as the result of androgen use, SHBG will already be extremely low. This is a form of testosterone induced negative feedback as well.

Nolva works in many ways to reduce negative feedback, partially because it increases SHBG.

 

[Nate Dawg]

Thanks for explaining that Big Cat.

 

[swole210]

So wouldnt an AI be a benefit since it is reducing SHBG, which is the protein that binds up your testosterone making it "unavailable" to the body, right? So if it is reducing SHBG, you should have more free test in your body I thought....

I was thinking the same thing. When I read Big Cats statement, I was like like..."HUH?". As far as I know, a decrease in SHBG would increase free test. Wait, but know I remember reading somewhere that If you decrease SHBG enough, and get a big spike in free test, this would also cause down regulation...OK, I'm confused now!:think:

 

[Nate Dawg]

Im confused as hell too...with so many people having successfull recovery during pct and many having the best and fastest recovery they have ever had when using an AI like ATD, I just dont really see how it can be a bad thing.

I have seen several studies showing an increase in testosterone levels when given an AI such as adex or letro, these studies were not done on individuals who were already shutdown, but there was a very significant increase in test levels when an AI was administered. Personally I am running a pct right now with nolva/clomid/adex, if its a bad idea using the arimidex I dont know, but I have talked to several that have used this pct and they really liked it so it was worth a shot to me.

 

[Big Cat]

Im confused as hell too...with so many people having successfull recovery during pct and many having the best and fastest recovery they have ever had when using an AI like ATD, I just dont really see how it can be a bad thing.

I have seen several studies showing an increase in testosterone levels when given an AI such as adex or letro, these studies were not done on individuals who were already shutdown, but there was a very significant increase in test levels when an AI was administered. Personally I am running a pct right now with nolva/clomid/adex, if its a bad idea using the arimidex I dont know, but I have talked to several that have used this pct and they really liked it so it was worth a shot to me.

The same holds true for nolvadex, that also demonstrated an increase in testosterone in normal individuals. In both counts the increase was not enough to cause significant changes in body composition, and for neither was the duration of the effect evaluated. As such reduction in SHBG and an increase in test and DHT could lead to a reduction in test over prolonged periods of time.

 

[swole210]

1.The SHBG splice variant is important in leydig and sertoli cell function.

2.SHBG is needed to convert androstenedione to testosterone.

3.SHBG does not bind testosterone just to inactivate it, it buffers testosterone. If not enough SHBG is present testosterone metabolizes. This is also seen when you administer HCG instead of pulsatile HCG, you get a much higher increase in estrogen, compared to testosterone because the substrate is not buffered. That means it will metabolize into DHT or estrogen, both will supress you further, and into hydroxylated substances that are conjugated and excreted.

After a cycle, as the result of androgen use, SHBG will already be extremely low. This is a form of testosterone induced negative feedback as well.

Nolva works in many ways to reduce negative feedback, partially because it increases SHBG.

Is this the reason why some people get gyno while administering hcg? I was under the impression that it was just simply because you increase your test levels to a really high natural level, thus more test to be converted into estrogen. I did not now this fact about SHBG!

 

[jmh80]

I don't want to start a war here, but I take Cat's words with a grain of salt after his repeated assertion that Superdrol was a piece of **** and didn't work. And also that it was extrodinarily toxic.
(There was a thread on BB.com about it.)

Bloodwork and results on AM seem to strongly refuted those statements about SD.

And there have been a few guys on here that really like Dr. D's PCT protocol. Beelzebulb used ATD + Lean Xtreme, not sure if Nolvadex/Clomiphene were included but an AI was definately included.

All that notwithstanding, have a nice day Cat.

 

[bpmartyr]

Subscribed, I gotta follow this.

 

[swole210]

I say I am confused, but then again, I did try Rebound and LX successfuly after my SD run. Even though I eventually lost a lot of the gains because I stopped training and eating right. Also if what Big Cat says is true,then ActivaTe would also cause down regulation also. I am not saying that what he is saying is incorrect(cause **** I don't know!) BUt if down regulation happens w/ these Pct supps, then we would not recoupe at all! Any one else?

 

[Big Cat]

Is this the reason why some people get gyno while administering hcg? I was under the impression that it was just simply because you increase your test levels to a really high natural level, thus more test to be converted into estrogen. I did not now this fact about SHBG!

When you use exogenous testosterone you raise levels of testosterone much more, and yet gyno is really rare. This is because of gradual release allowing it to be buffered. With HCG, despite lower test levels, that is not the case, causing an unequal rise in estrogen. The same is seen with testosterone suspension, but there the spike in test is still considerably larger.

 

[Big Cat]

I don't want to start a war here, but I take Cat's words with a grain of salt after his repeated assertion that Superdrol was a piece of **** and didn't work. And also that it was extrodinarily toxic.
(There was a thread on BB.com about it.)

I'll try not to take offense, but excuse you ? I never said that. I posted a real superdrol write-up for steroid users to be able to give SD a place comparative to real steroids. I never said it was a piece of **** or didn't work. Merely that it was overhyped and feedback from consumers who never before touched steroids and are nowhere near a natural limit is not valid feedback. Prohormone stacks back in the day had reports of up to 15-20 lbs in a few weeks as well.

Based on ACTUAL RESEARCH that was available concerning its structure I elucidated its true origin and potency.

And yes I did comment on some safety issues, but that is an issue for all designer steroids. That's why despite being known for over 40 years these steroids were never pursued pharmaceutically and others were. The ones that were have a better gains to side-effect ratio.

And there have been a few guys on here that really like Dr. D's PCT protocol. Beelzebulb used ATD + Lean Xtreme, not sure if Nolvadex/Clomiphene were included but an AI was definately included.

All that notwithstanding, have a nice day Cat.

Initially there were some people who though methoxy, ecdysterone and cell-tech were great too. The fact is, unless you compare this both in regards to blood work and well-being to a proper PCT, that sort of response isn't worth a whole lot.

That just to tell you that if this is what you base your assertion to take this with a grain of salt on, you have a sincerely skewed vision of things.

Being skeptical is a good thing, don't get me wrong, verify for yourself before you believe, by all means, but be sure you do so for the right reasons.

 

[Big Cat]

I say I am confused, but then again, I did try Rebound and LX successfuly after my SD run. Even though I eventually lost a lot of the gains because I stopped training and eating right. Also if what Big Cat says is true,then ActivaTe would also cause down regulation also. I am not saying that what he is saying is incorrect(cause **** I don't know!) BUt if down regulation happens w/ these Pct supps, then we would not recoupe at all! Any one else?

We have had the discussion on SHBG several times on CEM, with Jb, JGUNS and nandi (god rest his soul). In fact nandi himself stated he recommended starting nolva immediately after the cycle for PCT because it would bring SHBG back up.

And yes, activate during PCT is not a good idea. This is an issue that was dealt with several weeks ago on bodybuilding.com, when the person who claims to have invented activate bailed, saying he would have to look things over before he could adress me, and never returned.

All this information is freely available to all of you if you are willing to look.

 

[jmh80]

Hi Cat.

Here are some logs by 3 of our mods on a Superdrol knock-off - Revenge SDX. They are certainly more experienced than I when I ran SD.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/38023-revenge-sdx-log-ryansm.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/38070-revenge-shall-mine.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/37918-revenge-sdx-log-jminis-style.html

Ryan has taken SD 3 or 4 times and is over 300 lbs. so if you want to look at the effect of SD on a non-newb he should be giving real feedback.

BTW - I took tamoxifen citrate only for PCT of my SD cycle.

And yes, I agree that my statement on Dr. D's protocol is not even remotely scientific.

 

[Max32]

Interesting thread. There certainly are numerous approaches to pct: this theory, Dr. D's, Anth. Roberts, etc...

 

[swole210]

We have had the discussion on SHBG several times on CEM, with Jb, JGUNS and nandi (god rest his soul). In fact nandi himself stated he recommended starting nolva immediately after the cycle for PCT because it would bring SHBG back up.

And yes, activate during PCT is not a good idea. This is an issue that was dealt with several weeks ago on bodybuilding.com, when the person who claims to have invented activate bailed, saying he would have to look things over before he could adress me, and never returned.

All this information is freely available to all of you if you are willing to look.

This is really interesting stuff here! Definately did not know about this role of SHBG during PCT. All good valid points here. What you are saying Cat does make sense if that is the way things go. Not trying to start a war or argument of any sort here, but has any one asked Dr. D to comment on any of this and share some of his knowledge ( on this now very confsing subject of PCT) with us? Thanks for answering these question for me Big Cat!

 

[Big Cat]

This is really interesting stuff here! Definately did not know about this role of SHBG during PCT. All good valid points here. What you are saying Cat does make sense if that is the way things go. Not trying to start a war or argument of any sort here, but has any one asked Dr. D to comment on any of this and share some of his knowledge ( on this now very confsing subject of PCT) with us? Thanks for answering these question for me Big Cat!

Actually I did, on BB.com. He is called Phat Daddy there. I was really outraged when I found out this clown recommended DHEA for PCT as well. That makes him in my opinion an unethical prick with no regard for other people's health, and for all I care, he should be shot or sterilized. Sadly he already has three children, so I hope they have their mothers' smarts. What in christ's name causes anyone to recommend a suppressive hormone like DHEA for PCT ? And what sort of person doesn't stop to think that this could be potentially harmful ? I'm frankly appaled by this.

On top of that this Dr.D is apparently responsible for a whole host of other stupidities. When you start tracing this AI for PCT thing back, it seems he is the one that originated this stupidity. He is also the same person who thought it was innovative to taper off a cycle, when that very idea was abolished early '90's.

His lack of scrupules becomes even more obvious if you know he is affiliated with the company that sells the AI he recommends. He was deliberately endangering people to protect a commercial interest. He has also of late been recommending an SHBG lowering supplement by his own company, basically repeating his hainous crime by recommending products that hamper recovery to boost sales.

This person is in my opinion the lowest of the low. I can't even begin to express just how mad I am now. If he was standing in front of me, I would surely hurt him in a bad, bad way.

My whole life in the BB community has been about making proper steroid use socially and scientifically acceptable, and people like him manage to set that cause back decades with just a few stupid statements nobody bothered to verify.

No, I can't even begin to express my sentiment towards this Dr.D right now ...

 

[Pioneer]

if you like him or not you should just try to disprove his points rather then being an IDIOT (you are in this case) and say he should be shot?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Actually I did, on BB.com. He is called Phat Daddy there. I was really outraged when I found out this clown recommended DHEA for PCT as well. That makes him in my opinion an unethical prick with no regard for other people's health, and for all I care, he should be shot or sterilized. Sadly he already has three children, so I hope they have their mothers' smarts. What in christ's name causes anyone to recommend a suppressive hormone like DHEA for PCT ? And what sort of person doesn't stop to think that this could be potentially harmful ? I'm frankly appaled by this.

On top of that this Dr.D is apparently responsible for a whole host of other stupidities. When you start tracing this AI for PCT thing back, it seems he is the one that originated this stupidity. He is also the same person who thought it was innovative to taper off a cycle, when that very idea was abolished early '90's.

His lack of scrupules becomes even more obvious if you know he is affiliated with the company that sells the AI he recommends. He was deliberately endangering people to protect a commercial interest. He has also of late been recommending an SHBG lowering supplement by his own company, basically repeating his hainous crime by recommending products that hamper recovery to boost sales.

This person is in my opinion the lowest of the low. I can't even begin to express just how mad I am now. If he was standing in front of me, I would surely hurt him in a bad, bad way.

My whole life in the BB community has been about making proper steroid use socially and scientifically acceptable, and people like him manage to set that cause back decades with just a few stupid statements nobody bothered to verify.

No, I can't even begin to express my sentiment towards this Dr.D right now ...

That is absolutely uncalled for and truly sad.


If you didn't know Peter, Dr.D was making recommendations of the sort before he was ever affiliated with anyone. I have even disagreed with him as I do not like AI's at all during PCT but I never in a million years would say the things you just said. That was utterly despicable.


I suggest you follow your own "protocol".