Oral Solutions: Var, Winny, DBL, Anadrol, & M1T.

[SprtNvolcoM]

My previous post regarding powder capping or suspension into oral solutions:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolics/36217-capping-var-winny-dbl-anadrol-quick-question-new-post.html

I've continued my searches (found tons of info), but there seems to be a number of members who suggest PEG300 and a number who suggest PEG400 regardless of the hormone powder used. I read that there isn't much difference between PEGs with the exception of the density, consistancy, whats the word I'm looking for ... ? You get what I'm saying. So which PEG will work best for the gear I have described? I'm also going to purchase some everclear from the local liquir store down the street.

Now, It seems to me that people are having better luck with PEG 400, & all PEGs are the same price. So my thought is to just go with PEG400 (it seems obvious). But if its that easy, why are people using PEG300?

lol, sorry for the questions. I just need to get this straight before I invest the time and $$ into oral solutions.

Thanks,
Sprt

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

Last couple questions, I promise...

I want to suspend these hormones into the follwoing concentrations. Let me know if its possible.

Winny: 50mg/ml
Anavar: 40mg/ml
DBol: 25mg/ml to 50mg/ml
Anadrol: 25mg/ml to 50mg/ml
M1T: 10mg/ml

As mentioned I'm going to use PEG300 or 400 and everclear to suspend. Is it possible to achieve these concentrations using the PEG and EC?

Lastly, I've also read that Winny will someitmes clump unless you use polysorbate 80 (used eleviate the clumping). Is it necessary in an oral solution?

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

Oops, in the wrong forum. If some one would kindly move it, i would appreciate it.

PS: I think I just successfully suspended DBL in 151 for the first time. We'll find out in a couple days.

Until then,
Sprt

 

[DR.D]

Which PEG really doesn't matter. In fact, if your solution is designed for oral use, then I'd use water or oil to make a suspension. Oral solutions just taste so nasty and have no advantage over an aqueous suspension. Also, you hormones are more stable if they are not in solution.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

Which PEG really doesn't matter. In fact, if your solution is designed for oral use, then I'd use water or oil to make a suspension. Oral solutions just taste so nasty and have no advantage over an aqueous suspension. Also, you hormones are more stable if they are not in solution.

OK, now that comment totally threw me off. Why is everyone using PEG or EC then? If it is so easy using water, why doesnt everyone just do it?

 

[jonny21]

Which PEG really doesn't matter. In fact, if your solution is designed for oral use, then I'd use water or oil to make a suspension. Oral solutions just taste so nasty and have no advantage over an aqueous suspension. Also, you hormones are more stable if they are not in solution.

Hey Dr. D, do you think if you suspend in oil you have a better chance to bypass liver via lymphatic system and avoid some first pass deactivation.

Sprt.,
I am not 100% positive but I think using solvents is for a more even dispersal of solute thru solution. I have not seen water used in recipes but have seen oil. You just have to shake prior to use.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

I see ... I plan on using the recipes I've gotten from this site, which all call for PEG and EC.

Unfortunetaly, I cant get EC in cali. I can, but only at 151 proof grain. I'd have to go out of state to get 190 proof grain.

Will this 151 proof grain EC work just in place of the 190 for winny and anadrol? The recipes I have only call for 190 proof. I'd hate to fluff something up and waste my product.

Thanks,
Sprt

 

[DR.D]

Hey Dr. D, do you think if you suspend in oil you have a better chance to bypass liver via lymphatic system and avoid some first pass deactivation...

Yes, if it's a non-alkylated hormone, because some will actually be in solution probably. Otherwise, most 17a-methly orals would not need this for normal absorption.

Also, it's like you said about the aqueous suspension. I think most folks are just too lazy to shake their stuff before each use! But that's all it takes to get a homogenous suspension for accurate dosing. Once you try dbol, letro or nolva in an aqueous or oil suspension, you'll never go back to those nasty tasting solutions! What's the point? I just think most people don't understand or something.

 

[DR.D]

I see ... I plan on using the recipes I've gotten from this site, which all call for PEG and EC.

Unfortunetaly, I cant get EC in cali. I can, but only at 151 proof grain. I'd have to go out of state to get 190 proof grain.

Will this 151 proof grain EC work just in place of the 190 for winny and anadrol? The recipes I have only call for 190 proof. I'd hate to fluff something up and waste my product.

Thanks,
Sprt

It's not a problem. If you want to use "wet" alcohol, you just have to dry it out first. Get a desiccant like MgSO4 (common epsom salt). Dry it at 400'F for at least 4-6 hours and put it in a few coffee filters. Then slowly pour your alcohol over it while it's in a funnel. The salts catch the water and the dehydrated alcohol runs through. It's a sinch.

 

[Ubiquitous]

I... think.... I love you... dr. D.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

It's not a problem. If you want to use "wet" alcohol, you just have to dry it out first. Get a desiccant like MgSO4 (common epsom salt). Dry it at 400'F for at least 4-6 hours and put it in a few coffee filters. Then slowly pour your alcohol over it while it's in a funnel. The salts catch the water and the dehydrated alcohol runs through. It's a sinch.

I think ... euuuuuuuuh ... what? Wet alcohol? What are you talking about? Please elaborate. And why must you dry it? Everything is a liquid anyway. You totally lost me with that one.

The recipes just call for PEG and EC. I'm not concerned with the taste. So if PEG and EC work, why wouldnt I just use them?

Lastly, would BA or BB (or both) work better then 151 proof EC?

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

It's not a problem. If you want to use "wet" alcohol, you just have to dry it out first. Get a desiccant like MgSO4 (common epsom salt). Dry it at 400'F for at least 4-6 hours and put it in a few coffee filters. Then slowly pour your alcohol over it while it's in a funnel. The salts catch the water and the dehydrated alcohol runs through. It's a sinch.

I'm an idoit!! I get what your saying ... tell me if I'm correct ... The epsom salt will take out the "wet" from the alcohol, leaving me with 200 proof (or close to it) grain alcohol, right?

If so, then how much epsom salt will you need for say ... a 750ml bottle of 151 proof everclear??

And yes ... Dr. D is a fucking genuis!!!

 

[DR.D]

I... think.... I love you... dr. D.

I don't see no ring on these fingers! lol

 

[DR.D]

... The epsom salt will take out the "wet" from the alcohol, leaving me with 200 proof (or close to it) grain alcohol, right?

If so, then how much epsom salt will you need for say ... a 750ml bottle of 151 proof everclear??

Yes Sir! You are correct. 750ml of 151pf alcohol (75.5%) will yield 566.3ml of absolute, dehydrated alcohol (200pf). That means 183.7ml H2O must be removed. Each mole of MgSO4 can hold 7 moles of water, which corresponds to slightly over it's molecular weight or 105% it's weight in water (assuming it is totally dry) so roughly 175g of dried salts. I'd use about 300g though because it makes it much easier when you don't have to achieve 100% efficiency, that would get slow toward the end. You have to make a drying tube like I instructed you (a big funnel) and pour the alcohol in 2 equal portions over ~150g of salt each. Unless you have an enormous funnel, I'd just do 100ml alcohol at a time and then recharge the system with new filters and salt before the next round. The surface of the salts will get hard as it collects water. Occasionally you may need to break up the salts and mix them around in the funnel (about 4 coffee filters being used). Just don't puncture the paper when you do this. BTW, I'm not really a genius, but thanks for saying so! I'm just a chemist.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

So after all is done, I plan to make a couple simple solutions. Here is an example of my first:

4wks worth of DBL @ 40mg/ml

40mg/ml DBL -- (1.120, 40mg/ml):
- 1.120x1000 = 1120mg / 40mg = 28ml (is the total solution)
- 28ml-1.120mg = 26.88ml (solvent neded - EC)

Should yield 28ml @ 40mg/ml

Do my calculations look correct?

 

[DR.D]

It looks accurate to me bro. I don't know that you'll really end up with 28.0ml, there is usually not much volumetric expansion with low concentrations like this. I'd probably use ~27.5ml solvent. Or, at the end of the 28 days, just make note if you were short and by how much and you can fine toon it for next time. Best of gains my friend.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

You've been very helpful. I appreciate it. Thank you...

Thanks,
Sprt

Oh, and not that it matters (cuz I give a f*ck bout rep points and power), but for some reason I was just given one ... it was negative and said "Scammer." WTF is that all about?

Late!!

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

PS: Winny will some times clump unless you use polysorbate 80 (which is used to eleviate this clumping). Is it necessary in an oral solution?

 

[DR.D]

PS: Winny will some times clump unless you use polysorbate 80 (which is used to eleviate this clumping). Is it necessary in an oral solution?

With PEG or absolute alcohol? I doubt it. Only if water is present in the solution. If you use 151 without dehydrating it it wouldn't hurt though.

 

[poopypants]

It's not a problem. If you want to use "wet" alcohol, you just have to dry it out first. Get a desiccant like MgSO4 (common epsom salt). Dry it at 400'F for at least 4-6 hours and put it in a few coffee filters. Then slowly pour your alcohol over it while it's in a funnel. The salts catch the water and the dehydrated alcohol runs through. It's a sinch.

whoa **** looks like the doc is good for moonshine as well as PH's

 

[DR.D]

whoa **** looks like the doc is good for moonshine as well as PH's

I have a bottle of Bacardi, if that's what you mean, for special occasions! (lol)

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

Last question:

What do I do if my Hormone crashes or wont go/solution??

Add more PEG/Alcohol?
Heat & Shake?
Throw away?
What?

 

[Alexander]

Keep heating. I had this problem with oxymetholone at 50mg/ml in peg300 and everclear. Eventually it stayed in solution.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

Keep heating. I had this problem with oxymetholone at 50mg/ml in peg300 and everclear. Eventually it stayed in solution.

I'm using Lozgood's recipes. I know a couple people have mentioned some trouble with a few of there solutions using his recipes. I few noted (as I read) fixing their troubles with an added ML or two of PEG or EC along with some extra heating. I just wanted to clearify.

Thank you ...
Sprt

 

[AgentOrange]

Also, it's like you said about the aqueous suspension. I think most folks are just too lazy to shake their stuff before each use! But that's all it takes to get a homogenous suspension for accurate dosing. Once you try dbol, letro or nolva in an aqueous or oil suspension, you'll never go back to those nasty tasting solutions! What's the point? I just think most people don't understand or something.[/quote]

TELL ME MORE GREAT ORACLE. I would love to stop dowing dutasteride and tamox... they taste so bad.

Are you saying that I can just dump "x" amount of a compound in with "y" amount of distilled water, shake it up, and voila? Would the compound be suficiently dispersed? Then just measure it with an oral syrige I guess.

I hope that I'm hearing you correctly. Would some sort of preservative be needed, such as BA or BB?

Danke! -AO

 

[DR.D]

AgentOrange,
Yes, it's that simple. You could preserve w/ 5% ethanol if you like or use isotonic saline or just distilled water. I've even used sterile contact lens saline solution! I don't usually use a preservative, but it may not be a bad idea since a little saliva may contact the dropper at times. I've also made water emulsions with around 20% oil, 2% polysorbate 80 and a flavoring agent. When you shake those, they remain suspended several minutes so you don't have to measure as fast, but you really don't have to get fancy. People have been measuring out intramuscular, aqueous winni and test for decades with no problems.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

So I baked my Epsom @ 400 F for exactly one hour. Took it out to mix it around the **** was hard as a rock. lol, wtf! I'm know scraping it away fromt he glass pyrx baking ban I used to bake it in. I could see the wet epsom though under neither the dry top layer of salt. I'm going to let it sit out over night, after I've scraped it all around and then try it again inthe morning at a lower temp.

What do you think?

 

[DR.D]

No! Spread it out in 1 layer on a cookie sheet for max effeciency. 1hr is not long enough either. It will stick together hard like that the more the crystals are touching. Break it up afterward into small chucks (like pebble size or smaller) but don't use the fine powder generated unless you have better than coffee filters, like a Whatman #4 ashless.

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

No! Spread it out in 1 layer on a cookie sheet for max effeciency. 1hr is not long enough either. It will stick together hard like that the more the crystals are touching. Break it up afterward into small chucks (like pebble size or smaller) but don't use the fine powder generated unless you have better than coffee filters, like a Whatman #4 ashless.

lol, nooow you tell me. :0)

I cooked it again this morning again for 2.5hrs. The **** did stick together last night (that **** was harder than some rocks), but I broke them a part this morning already before baking the second time.

I guess I'll go back to the store and buy another box of the stuff. Its less than 2.00 so no biggie. I'd rather do it right then half ass it.

Thanks for the clearification.
Cookie sheet, thin layer, cook for 3-4hr, let set, break up, good to go.
Got it.

Until next time,
Sprt

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

The **** came out cloudy. I guess I didn't strain the little pebbles good enough. I assume some of the finer powdered salt got through the filters. I'm going to X that idea and just stick with the 151 proof EC I have. Or just I'll buy some ethyl alcohol.

lol, :wtf: was I think ....

 

[DR.D]

The **** came out cloudy. I guess I didn't strain the little pebbles good enough. I assume some of the finer powdered salt got through the filters. I'm going to X that idea and just stick with the 151 proof EC I have. Or just I'll buy some ethyl alcohol.

lol, :wtf: was I think ....

It's OK to use still. The MgSO4 that is making it cloudy is binding the water that's in it, so it's basically still 200pf now and a little magnesium won't kill you. Or, you can filter it through a whatman ashless or whatman syringe filter for clarification. I told you to avoid the fine powder! Granular Na2SO4 works great too, as does silica (diatomaceous earth) if you can find that. Epsom salts are just the cheapest way.

 

[Dare2disturB]

Quick question to sprt, why are you usuing these methods instead of just popping the pills?

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

It's OK to use still. The MgSO4 that is making it cloudy is binding the water that's in it, so it's basically still 200pf now and a little magnesium won't kill you. Or, you can filter it through a whatman ashless or whatman syringe filter for clarification. I told you to avoid the fine powder! Granular Na2SO4 works great too, as does silica (diatomaceous earth) if you can find that. Epsom salts are just the cheapest way.

I should wait for your replys ... lol. After all the baking & all the time I put into making that stuff, I tossed it. Oh well, it was definitly a learning experience ... one I will try again in the near future. I'll look into those other materials you suggested.

I ran the final product through a sifter, trying to eliminate all the finer powder. I guess I didnt get it all. I was going to filter it again, but as you said it would take a special filter, one i didnt have.

Also, can you explain the drying tube once more ... for some reason I have this visual idea that it needs to be quit long tube/funnel and the salt goes in the tubular portion not the top funnel. This doesnt make sense though. If it where true, how would you sterr about the salt when it hardens from the alcohol being poured through it. So how close am I to understanding the drying tube?

Quick question to sprt, why are you usuing these methods instead of just popping the pills?

Have you tried capping 4,000 caps by hand, measuring each cap out individually, and hoping the margin of error is small yet still in your favor?? If you have, you should understand why I am trying to learn other methods. Caps blow.

I went ahead and used the EC 151 and it worked just fine for my M1T and DBL solution. The M1T was a bit stubbern, but it finally gave in and went into solution. I gave both a water bath for some time. This morning, all loosk well.

DBL 50mg/ml & M1T is 10mg/ml, both 100ml each. It took 5min tops. Capping would have taken 2hrs minimum for each compound.

 

[DR.D]

You have the right idea with the drying tube. You know what's easy... just cut the bottom off a 16 or 20oz plastic soda bottle, then double up a coffee filter and fill it 3/4 way up with anhydrous sodium sulfate. Kitchen chemistry at it's finest! For really wet applications (like yours) you have to stop and break it up a lot or else it flows really slow after awhile. You can just pull the hard chucks off the top or move them out of the way as you go. A real glass drying tube looks like a long, thin, vertical funnel and you plug the stem with glass wool usually.

 

[Dare2disturB]

Dr. D, we need to give u the AM Nobel Prize for sure.:thumbsup:

 

[Dare2disturB]

i cannot find the thread with the recipe for suspending, its something i want to further research on, anyone have the link?

 

[DR.D]

Dare2disturB,

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I am not sure that a suspension thread exists, but if it does, it's likely in the homebrew forum. It pretty simple though:

1) Choose your solvent (water, oil, isotonic saline solution, whatever...)
2) Add a preservative (5% ethanol will keep stuff from growing in it)
3) Add your powder and shake each time before you measure

 

[Dare2disturB]

thanks doc, i found a few good links :cheers:

 

[poopypants]

Dr D would you mind giving the "making prostan an injectable" thread a looksy? i think wed stand to benifit from your opinion on it as well as making it a trans derm. thanks man.

 

[DR.D]

o'tay

 

[SprtNvolcoM]

I'm having a little trouble with my Winny. I dont know what I'm doing wrong, I followed Lozgod's recipe exactly. I have hear dof other people having problems wiht this recipe as well though, so I guess I'm not all alone.

I have, on the other hand, successfully converted M1T and DBL using his recipes. Which, even more so, leads me to wonder what it is I could be doing wrong. The only thing I can think of is that i'm using 151pf EC instead of 190pf EC.

As I posted in another post (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolics/36247-oral-solutions-var-winny-dbl-anadrol-m1t-new-post.html), I've been reading over on the conversion board. They suggested using 100% PEG300 and as little EC as possible. They mentioned having no problems with WNY or VAR using 100% PEG300 and even 400 (which took a little extra heat) in some cases.

I guess its worth looking into. Has anyone else used similar methods? If so, when using PEG300 as your main solvent how much EC will be needed to keep stuff growing (remember, according to the fellows on the conversion borad you only need very little EC or alcohol of any sorts at all)? I'm thinking 95% to 97% PEG and 5% to 3% EC ... yes/no?