Is CED59 being stupid...? TRT/Bridge Discussion

CEDeoudes59

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Disclaimer: I know I'll catch hell for this, but I have researched - I ask to least consider what I am proposing before shooting it down. Still don't like it, shoot it down. ;)

A little background:
Just finished a 19 week cycle.
It was my first cycle.
211lbs to ~240lbs, estimated 2-3% BF Gain.

1-4 Dbol
1-17 Test E (500mg - upped to 750mg halfway)
1-16 EQ (400mg - upped to 600mg halfway)
17-19 Test Prop 150mg ED
1-19 HCG (250ius x 2week)
19 ATD (50mg)

PCT
Clomid 300,150,100,100
ATD 50,50,75,75,50, 50


Here is my proposal: I lower the Test E dose to 250mg and cruise on that. Continue to use HCG x 2times a week. This is SWALE's TRT Protocol (only the test is somewhat higher).
Still do the Clomid Therpy and PCT as planned. Get bloodwork after 6weeks. Get more bloodwork for after another 4-6weeks. CONTINUE to Cruise from there if everything is okay.

*Swale [believes] that low doses of HCG (250-500ius) will not desensitize LH cells. Only much larger doses for extended periods will do this. Swale, headdoc, and others believe light HCG doses will be commonplace in all TRT/HRT protocols.


Why do I want to do this???
I've recently found a training partner and we really push each other. I didn't have that this summer. I actually starting gaining again at the end of the cycle. Unreal. Anywho, I believe I can make serious gains if I continue. It's not just an addiction.

Background on him: he can't drink yet - but not a teenager. He went from 160 to 235 (7% BF) in ~20months with LEGAL HRT and a couple of cycles. 15" arms to 19" in that period too.


please give me your honest thoughts....
and get at me with any information or thoughts that you don't think I've fully considered.

thank you AM.
 
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lifted

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CED, if you decide to cruise, then do the 250mg + 250IU HCG twice/week. That's fine and all, but ditch the PCT until you come off completley...unless this is what you meant?

There is no reason to do clomid/ATD PCT if you're still on...unless I am confused on what you typed? How long were you thinking about cruisng for?

*** Although, this is your first AAS cycle....and a long one at that, so if it were me, take the appropriatte time off and get your bloodwork and then you can jump on again. But if you'd rather milk it, then do like I said above.
 
CEDeoudes59

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hey thanks lifted...

The reason for the PCT is well, some research I found.
The expert would say shoot 1.5grams of test for 8weeks, taper to 250mg for 4weeks (and run a PCT), go back up to 1.5grams for another 12 weeks. And then come off completely.

He merely says, PCT while still on is considered a waste by most, but it helps to some degree... it's like a Mini-PCT. It will restore the cardio profile (probably) if nothing else.
 
lifted

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Well, I still don't agree with it because clomid will not be able to increase LH sensitivity because there is still exo-T being administered....and at that 250mg is still a pretty high dose. What he means is that SERMS cannot begin to work until T levels are in the normal to high normal level...and I assure you, 250mg/week is defintaley past that...lol.

But if you can afford the ancillaries, then better safe than sorry, I agree. Might as well do all you can there. I think that as long as you keep an eye on all of your bloodwork, this can still be safe to do...but expect to be REALLY shutdown when all is said and done. I'm sure you already know that though. ;)

Maybe use some IGF-1 or something of that sort to help in the recovery process after you do decide to come back off. Good luck w/ everything, and play it safe. :cool:
 
CEDeoudes59

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thanks again lifted, good honest thoughts.

recently I posted about continuing HCG @ 250ius into PCT. A lot of bros claim its makes PCT a breeze. Most would freak out and remind me that HCG is suppressive, which it is - but not enough at a low dose to warrant dropping it until the cessation of PCT apparently....
 
jmh80

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I gotta agree w/ Lifted. Drop the PCT if you want to cruise. Those compounds won't work at all with extrogenous testosterone.
 

rhinochaser48

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I think the theory your bringing up here has more to do with the androgen receptor than with lipids.

In the presence of high levels of testosterone, androgen receptor upregulate temporarily, and by about the 10 week mark, begin to downregulate. This is where the bridge theory takes off.

By keeping androgen levels low for an extended period of time, you can allow them to upregulate on their own before you begin all over again.

I don't know how valid this is, but it explains why most people stop gaining quickly at about the 10-12 week mark, maybe earlier.

In the past, clomid was believed to work like HCG. They thought it mimicked LH. It doesn't though. That knowledge has been proved wrong.
 

rhinochaser48

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Also worth mentioning, starting and stopping SERM's and aromatase inhibitors throughout a cycle is a bad idea. It could cause an estrogen rebound.
 

size

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You are a young guy. Come off the drugs and train clean for awhile.
 
Beelzebub

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You are a young guy. Come off the drugs and train clean for awhile.
sorry deoudes, but i'm gonna have to agree with size here. you gained damn near 30lbs and trying to push it further at this point is not smart at all.

IMO, get off, do your PCT, come back later with a strong cycle and quit playing around with cruising methods before you end up a permanent HRT patient like your 20y/o TP.
 
kwyckemynd00

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Beelze: The T/P was already on TRT beforehand. He just decided to up his TRT dose from 100-250mg/wk. Luck of the draw for him...got the short end of the stick naturally.


Deo:
I don't have any input on the 250mg/wk cruise though, deo...well, not gonna get a "yay" or "nay" from me.

Its something I've been very interested in and that has very little literature on it, and maybe slightly more user input.

Personally, health is my only concern. TRT is okay with me so long as health is good--I'm not planning on having kids, just house maids :twisted:

One thing I WILL suggest for sure is that if you do experiment with this TRT thing, I'd suggest still coming off just to see how recovery is from the low dose test production.

Considering shutdown is proportional to test dose and has a setpoint that differs from person to person based on natty test levels (HPTA sees > natty ONLY and decides to shut off).

Again, this is just uncharted water. I've got a friend who ran a long cycle and is now on TRT and then a few more who have been on for YEARS straight and come off having kids and keeping normal natty test levels.

If you're going to be a guinea pig, be a smart one :)

Oh, and put your fame-suit on....:lol:
 

chasec

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I'd say to come off completely. let your body regain homeostasis before you go back on cycle. Their is never a guarantee that you will come back 100% after a cycle, so why push your luck even farther than we allready do by taking androgens? their are too many risks with not enough upside to continue your cycle. At the worst if you stop now you will lose a few lbs and some strength. So what? in the scheme of things your health is so much more important than a 5 lb swing in LBM. You've got plenty of time for more cycles in the future.
 
CEDeoudes59

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll come off.
Now 'how-to' do it?
Last Enan Shot (250mg) was last wednesday. -- simply 2 weeks from this point?
 
CEDeoudes59

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Thanks again guys.
Guess i'll have to find natty ways to keep that TEST high in the meantime...


Now 'how-to' do it?
Last Enan Shot (250mg) was last wednesday. -- simply 2 weeks from this point?

shoot prop in the meantime... Damn it that stuff kills.
 
ryansm

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Good choice, you have to sit down and ask yourself sometimes what the right direction is to take. I believe you were considering to cruise b/c of the wrong reasons I am glad you chose this path.
 
CEDeoudes59

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hi bobo :burger:
i await your response
 
kwyckemynd00

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Dose / Before / After / Change / p-value
25 mg / 593 ± 48 / 253 ± 66 / 340 ± 85 / 0.0029
50 mg / 566 ± 78 / 306 ± 58 / 260 ± 64 / 0.0037
125 mg / 553 ± 53 / 570 ± 75 / 57 ± 75 / 0.7425
300 mg / 653 ± 50 / 1,345 ± 139 / 691 ± 143 / 0.0005
600 mg / 632 ± 63 / 2,370 ± 150 / 1,737 ± 156 / 0.0001


Taken From:

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.











Maybe shutdown is not so dose dependent? Hmmm...........well...........I dunno......ALR told me otherwise, now I"m confused again........... *bah* i hate learning ****. :(
 
CEDeoudes59

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credit on that chart to Seth Roberts, as well ;)
 
kwyckemynd00

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And cedeoudes59.....i found that chart on one of that guys posts....who is he? :think:
 
Dwight Schrute

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In the presence of high levels of testosterone, androgen receptor upregulate temporarily, and by about the 10 week mark, begin to downregulate. This is where the bridge theory takes off.

By keeping androgen levels low for an extended period of time, you can allow them to upregulate on their own before you begin all over again.

I don't know how valid this is, but it explains why most people stop gaining quickly at about the 10-12 week mark, maybe earlier.
Don't know where you got that from but research suggests otherwise. Testosterone administration actually upregulates the AR for a very long time. Doses given to men showed upregulation of up to 6 months before any type opf down regulation ocurred and even then it never went below baseline.

You have to look at other genetic factors on why people stop responding (probably diet anyway).


I don't understand the point of cruising in a normal healthy man. You are only going to increase the chances of lower test production in the long run.
 
Dwight Schrute

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CEDeoudes59

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Thanks for the reply

Perhaps I buy into the hype too much, but I don't neccessarily look at TRT as a bad thing once you eclipse the age of 30-35. If that is my thinking then dimishing natty Test levels are not truly a big deal.

I, of course, am hesitant to start anything like this because of my age and lack of endo supervision.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Well its seems ok to you now but when you have to stick yourself for the rest of your life to feel even normal, it becomes a different issue. Priorities change my friend and the more you think now, the better off you'll be when you get older. Believe me, the less you have to worry about when you are older, especially health related issues, the better.

Its just not worth it. Not even close. The cycles like the one you jsut completed get old. Real old.
 
CEDeoudes59

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Well its seems ok to you now but when you have to stick yourself for the rest of your life to feel even normal, it becomes a different issue. Priorities change my friend and the more you think now, the better off you'll be when you get older. Believe me, the less you have to worry about when you are older, especially health related issues, the better.

Its just not worth it. Not even close. The cycles like the one you jsut completed get old. Real old.
I understand what you are saying. How times and perspectives change 180degrees. Years ago I swore I'd never do steroids - and now after my first run - I'm bordering on what some would call abuse.

You think it all gets old huh?

What do you think about my training partner? 20yrs, Legal HRT for life. 155lbs to 235lbs at 6% BF, in 18 months with 2 cycles and HRT @250mg. Curls 135 for 16+. Is he simply an abuser and I don't know it?
 
CEDeoudes59

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I honestly don't really know what he does or doesn't do. I can't believe he went from 15"arms to 19"arms. half an inch every 6months.

The bridge, however, would ultimately be TRT for life i think.
I mean 19weeks on --- Bridge --- then what another cycle?
that would almost be a year 'ON'
 
Dwight Schrute

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I understand what you are saying. How times and perspectives change 180degrees. Years ago I swore I'd never do steroids - and now after my first run - I'm bordering on what some would call abuse.

You think it all gets old huh?

What do you think about my training partner? 20yrs, Legal HRT for life. 155lbs to 235lbs at 6% BF, in 18 months with 2 cycles and HRT @250mg. Curls 135 for 16+. Is he simply an abuser and I don't know it?
That is the path he chooses and if it makes him happy, that is fine. But I can be 235 and 6% naturally if I choose too. Steriods can certianly make it easier but I also know I can do it without it.

That is the diffrerence.


I tihnk you've answered your own question. You have seen your own progression and your point of view change and now you are too the point where you are looking for answeres to solidify your decision to continue cruising then going back on. If you arne't getting paid a lot of money, its not worth it IMO.
 
kwyckemynd00

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I wouldn't be surprised if he (training partner) was nutty.

I've got a 20 yr old buddy who is really seriuos about his BB. He runs 75-100mg of Drol / Dbol through most of his cycles.........thats along with ~1g of Test and a couple other injectables. When things get funky, he takes two weeks off of orals, cruises, and goes back on. ONly time he is OFF is when he runs out of money.

I think its pretty common for people to do totally insane things. Well, more common than we think.
 
CEDeoudes59

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well sir, I'll might just pay next time around you to make me that.

6-0 235lbs 6% is impressive at any age.

You are fully convinced you could do that without AAS now?

Not that you're an old man, or that I'm doubting it - I honestly have no idea but I've heard that test levels decline and that muscle is harder and harder and eventually impossible to come by (perect diet or not)...
 
Dwight Schrute

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Convinced? Hell yeah. I've done it but its VERY tough to maintain. Thats bascially my limit and I don't feel that great when I am that heavy.
 
CEDeoudes59

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well then you'll probably hear from me in the near future.
Unfournately that future is seems so far away.
I've got to find things to do in the meantime for BBing purposes.
 

Mess

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Hey CED, i've read your threads, you sounded realy a smart young man, and you make your actions based on studies and research,right ?

keep acting smart bro, get off the juice, run proper PCT take your time off while you train hard and eat as good, experience natural results again while you still on the time Off then jump to a new awesome cycle and gain even more.

moral of the story, dont **** up your natural test production system, its not worth it bro


I just had to put my 2 cents


Cheers
 

size

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You are on the edge and close to falling off. Do not become dependent on AAS to achieve your goals. If you do, ultimately you will abuse your body, health, and mind with the end result being regret and disappointment.
 
natedogg

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Hey size, do you have any children because you would make a great father. If only you could get your alcoholism under control. :D Just kidding.
 
kwyckemynd00

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Does natedogg want a new daddy? :) Awww....cute :)
 
kwyckemynd00

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Wish I could say the same sometimes.
 
kwyckemynd00

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hhahah....Beelze loves natedogg in gay way...how cute :)
 
natedogg

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*high five*

Hey, hey....I"ve got a great idea for a movie. Tons of action, great sex...."thread crashers". Huh? Whatcha think?
Great sex between whom? I'm out if you think you're getting anywhere near me with that thing.
 

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