2 methyl products at the same time? Why a problem ?

[sirpsycho]

I understand that methyls are hard on the liver. I also have read many logs where people are using 20 mg. & 30 mg. of Superdrol on a cycle and also using similar doses of E-Max (but not at the same time) on cycle.

Now I admit that I have limited knowledge as far as PH's go (I have learned over the years how to cycle PH's and run a good PCT after, all with great results, 5 cycles total).

But my question is, if someone can run 30 mg. of a methyl (say Superdrol) everyday for a short period (seems like 3 weeks is the norm), what would the harm be to run a cycle of the following ? :

Superdrol 10 mg. a day
E-Max 10 mg. a day


My thoughts are that you are running only 20 mg. total of two methyls instead of running 30 mg. total of one methyl.

Again, I am admiting ahead of time that my knowledge is limited when it comes to the mechanics that makes these products work, but if anybody could answer this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kristopher]

oh god not again

 

[milwood]

look up the word "synergism" for one. Second, understand that 10mg of one methyl might be far more hepatoxic than 50mg of another. Combos are extra toxic, and many variables come into play. Search for threads on the subject here and at Avant, I think.

 

[Boss_K]

I'm not gonna argue cuz its been said and done before, but depending on the substance, stacking 2 methyls may not be as bad as taking a high dose of one.

 

[jmh80]

Bobo has a great post explaining this somewhere.

For your health, SEARCH!!!!

 

[sirpsycho]

I will do another search, specifically for Bobo's post on the subject.

My first search only resulted in one good thread about four or five pages in, Designer talked about it a little in a thread with a poll at the beginning.

If I remember correctly, he said that he didn't really encourage the practice, but if one was to do it, he recommended not taking them together, but taking one for three weeks, then the other for the next three weeks, obviously with proper PCT to follow, and bloodwork before and after.

 

[w_llewellyn]

There should be no reason two methyls would have "toxic synergy". It is about cumulitive exposure to hepatotoxic agent. If Steroid X is taken at 10mg, and is equally as tosic as "Y" mg for mg, you should theoretically be able to cut the dose of X in half and add 5mg of Y and have the same level of exposure.

No, you don't have definitive ways to calculate this, but we don't when taking one steroid at a time either. We just do the best we can given what we know. If it were me I'd just take a little care when planning the cycle, and I wouldn't worry about it much.

 

[milwood]

There should be no reason two methyls would have "toxic synergy". It is about cumulitive exposure to hepatotoxic agent. If Steroid X is taken at 10mg, and is equally as tosic as "Y" mg for mg, you should theoretically be able to cut the dose of X in half and add 5mg of Y and have the same level of exposure.

No, you don't have definitive ways to calculate this, but we don't when taking one steroid at a time either. We just do the best we can given what we know. If it were me I'd just take a little care when planning the cycle, and I wouldn't worry about it much.

I think that's the problem; the various methylated PS's seem to have different levels of toxicity mg for mg. So people ask things like "if I want to take M1T and M4OHN instead of just M4OHN, and I normally take 40mg of M4OHN, I'll just do 20mg of M1T and 20mg of M4OHN, and I should be fine." Well, you might be, but anyone with experience knows you're gonna take a hell of a beating with option #2, comparatively.

 

[jmh80]

Bill - I respect your opinion, but the problem with these new PH's (or whatever they are called) is that we don't know the toxicity. M1T we (AM) really knows because SuperSoldier had so many bloodtests done.

 

[Sky9]

Reading material for ya SirP
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31770

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I will do another search, specifically for Bobo's post on the subject.

My first search only resulted in one good thread about four or five pages in, Designer talked about it a little in a thread with a poll at the beginning.

If I remember correctly, he said that he didn't really encourage the practice, but if one was to do it, he recommended not taking them together, but taking one for three weeks, then the other for the next three weeks, obviously with proper PCT to follow, and bloodwork before and after.

Here it is.....goood info that was new to me.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=343908&postcount=22

There are intermediate stages in which sometimes the metabolite produced is harsher than than the parent hormone. Dbol is a great example because 17 methyl estradiol is much more potent than dbol itself. THe problem is that with the majority of the new substances the metabolites are unknown and you could very easily being introducing a fairly potent metabolite even though the paretn hormone is relatively weak/less toxic.

Its not really about one parent hormone or one enzyme. ITs about mutiple horones and multiple enzymes at various stages. At varisou time the the conversion of hormones into less and/or more substances causes the production of free radicals. YOu also have to understnad htat the liver does numerous tasks (packagin of HDL/LDL/ etc..., serves as the main glucose buffer, converst lactic acid to an important fule rather than a toxic substance, etc...the list goes on and on) so by stressing the liver can easily effect other areas. I remember many people reporting a feeling of hypoglycemia on M1T and Sdrol and this easily could be a results of its effects on the liver and its functioning as being the main glucose buffer (preventing to high or too low glucose levels).

So in the process's of oxidation, reduction, and hydrolysis which converts toxic checmicals into less toxic chemicals the risk of increased free adical products which can easily damage hepatocytes is raised. THis in turn can cause a host of problem with the above mentioned tasks that the liver can perform.

What you are describing specifically is caused induction, where one pathway is overloaded and you can have a buildup of toxins occur. The problem with this is that the majority of those toxins are fat soluble and will accumulate in fatty parts of the body, the main being the brain and hormonal glands. Accumulatin in these areas can cause brain dysfunction and hormonal inbalances in the long run.

 

[Sky9]

Here it is.....goood info that was new to me.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=343908&postcount=22

haha, beat ya to it :saw:




j/k

 

[kwyckemynd00]

haha, beat ya to it :saw:




j/k

LOL....wellt he quote is in my post, so how u like dat biotch?

:chainsaw:

 

[Sky9]

LOL....wellt he quote is in my post, so how u like dat biotch?

:chainsaw:

I know, your format is better :frustrate:

 

[max-rot98]

good info

 

[sirpsycho]

Sky9 and Kwyckemynd00, thanks for the information guys, good reading.

Also, thanks to Bill Llewellyn for chiming in.

I am going to continue to research this, as I still think there is a safe way to run a low dose double methyl cycle without any real harm beyond a normal 1 methyl cycle, but until I see and hear more evidence this type of cycle will be on the sidelines.

By the way Bill L., I still have the X-Factor you sent me and will be running it in the very near future as I just came off a Superdrol cycle and have been running PCT and been downing Flax and whatnot to get my lipids back to normal. I will let you know how things go when I run it.