First Cycle Advice
- 07-25-2005, 09:23 AM
- 07-25-2005, 09:37 AM
I think most will tell you that test enanthate would be a better choice than sust. For a first cycle run 500mg every week for 10-12 weeks. According to Beelzebub sust is effective if injected every other day or every couple of days. Thats what what he said in another thread if I remember correctly and the dude knows his stuff. I'll try to find it for you. Anyways point being you don't want to pin a couple of times a week if you can get away with doing it once. And if you are going to pin more than once prop. would be a better option than sust.
Edit: found this from another thread, Beelzebub quote "because of the prop ester in sustanon, you have to inject EOD. meaning, if you're going to inject EOD anyway, might as well go with prop, it's cheaper. sust is generally more expensive than enanthate as well."
Go with enanthate. That is what I am doing for my first cycle in a month.
- 07-25-2005, 09:50 AM
thanks for the advice
i have read that with enthanate one can put on alot of size but you loose alot of muscular defination
many people have also said to use this compound so it is still very much an option
so do you inject 250mg twice or can it go all at once?
is it best to combine with something like dbol also?
07-25-2005, 10:11 AM
well here is how my cycle looks roughly.
wks1-5 dbol 30mg ed
wks 1-12 t enan 500 mg every week
pct will be 4 weeks ralox 120/100/60/30
will have arimidex on hand for bloat and will also use trib and zma during post cycle
will use typical stuff on cycle to help manage bp and cholesterol as well
maybe drop the deca as well. If you are going to use it use it longer than 4 weeks and get
yourself some hcg. You'll need it. Check out the stickies cycles for the newbie. Some good things
in there. Pick one and maybe tweak it a bit. For mine I extended it from 10 wks to 12, and took the
a-dex out. Taking away the bloat takes away from your gains. I will only use the a-dex if the bloat is way
out of control. IMO save the deca for later. Run some test and jumpstart it with d-bol or even superdrol
if you would rather stay dry.
07-25-2005, 11:09 AM
For the bodybuilder, the water retention that goes hand in hand with Testosterone enanthate cuts both ways. Certainly, one gets rapidly massive and strong; however, one's reflected image after a few weeks often shows completely flat, watery, and puffy muscles. The muscles appear as if they have been pumped up with air to new dimensions, yet during flexing nothing happens.
07-25-2005, 11:16 AM
If thats what you are worried about use some arimidex. Where did you get that quote from Bovey? Just so you know when you get off cycle your water retention will go away. You also can control bloat with diet as well. i hope wherever you got that the person isn't claiming that all your gains are water.
Sustanon 250 is a unique blend of 4 different esters of testosterone. The principle purpose of attaching an ester to a steroid is to make it more lipophillic, so that when injected intra-muscularly it can remain in the adipose tissue longer and is released in the blood-stream over time. The longer an ester, the more lipophillic it is. Sustanon 250 contain 1 short, 1 long and 2 medium length esters that are all delivered over time, which gives a quick release, but a durable one as well. You may think that this is a positive thing, and to patients requiring testosterone therapy this probably is, but to a steroid user its really not.
A steroid user will use a long-acting testosterone and inject it once a week. The end of a week is usually the time when a long-acting (7 or 8 carbon) ester has tapered down to its original level and threatens to drop below that level, giving sub-par amounts of testosterone beyond that point (eventhough the compound stays somewhat active for 3-4 weeks). With sustanon, that equal amount is divided much differently. Imagine a hypothetical situation where one take either 270 mg of a an ester that lasts 6 days, or 270 mg of a blend of different esters, 90 mg each, that release over respectively 2, 4 and 6 days, analog to sustanon. With the first one, an even amount of testosterone is released on each day. With the second one the entire first ester, half the second ester and 1/3rd of the last ester is released within the first two days. The result here is clear : the first two days one gets 165 mg, the next two one gets 75 mg and the last 2 days one gets a mere 30 mg. The levels peak much sooner, and drop off sooner, leaving you with less than adequate androgen levels as the week draws to a close. So for use as one would use another long-acting testosterone, I find sustanon to be poor value. The price is roughly the same so I really don't see the affinity people seem to have for it. Respectively cypionate and enanthate are much better choices. I can understand the need for a fast-acting component to front-load and kick-start gains, but even then, testoviron (200 mg testosterone enanthate and 50 mg testosterone propionate) is a much better choice. Speaking of front-loading, for this express purpose sustanon may be very suited. One could probably obtain results faster If one were to use 500 mg of sustanon on day 1, then again 5 days later on day 6 and start a cycle of enanthate/cypionate at 500 mg/week on day 11. That avoids the major crash at the end of the week and makes maximum use of the fast acting esters to saturate the system.
07-25-2005, 11:20 AM
Now a little on enanthate
Like testosterone cypionate, enanthate is a single-ester and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. To me, its slightly better value for money than the aforementioned because its ester is only 7 instead of 8 carbons in length. Where that doesn't really change much in terms of release and blood concentration for users who inject on a weekly basis, that does mean that less of the weight is ester and more of it is testosterone. When taking an amount of an esterified steroid, that amount in terms of weight is a combination of the ester and the steroid. Naturally the longer the ester is, the more of the weight it takes up. So its safe to state that 500 mg of enanthate contains more testosterone than does 500 mg of cypionate. Not that this slight difference will be noted on a weekly pattern really, but its enough for me to give it a slight edge if given the choice. Although, as stated with cypionate, your choice between enanthate and cypionate is best based on availability. These are a much better choice than sustanon 250 or omnadren, which are blends of different testosterone esters, due to their irregular release. Nonetheless these versions still appear to be more popular with most users for some reason. Before you compare these to shorter esters under the pretense that even more of the weight would be testosterone, for bulking purposes the release pattern and injection pattern of an enanthate or cypionate is more fitting than that of say, a propionate ester. Enanthate and cypionate are very close in those terms, hence the comparison is possible.
A long-acting testosterone ester may be the best for all your mass-building needs, but its not an easy product to use. Because of the extreme length of action (3-4 weeks) one cannot easily solve occurring problems by simply discontinuing the product, as it will continue to act and aggravate side-effects over extended periods of time. In regards to damage control and post-cycle therapy, some familiarity with the use of ancillary drugs is required prior to using a long-acting testosterone product. Nolvadex and Proviron will come in very handy in such cases and post-cycle HCG and clomid or Nolvadex will be required as well to help restore natural testosterone. Frequency of side-effects is probably highest with this type of product. While most will tell you it's a waste to not use testosterone, as it will take ages longer to build proper mass, these are all points to take into consideration. Testosterone is a product that is heavily used by beginners and veterans alike and justly so. Those who fear they may never understand the proper use of ancillary drugs, may want to suck it up and invest in some propionate or suspension testosterones instead. These are much shorter acting and easier to control, but they do need to be injected once every two days, whereas this type of ester will impart great gains with a single weekly injection. Something to keep in mind.
Just so you know this info is from here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteroids.htm
07-25-2005, 11:29 AM
This is where i got that quote but the full article
TESTOSTERONE ENANTHATE BASICS:"Testosterone enantate is an ester of the naturally occurring androgen, testosterone. It is responsible for the normal development of the male sex characteristics. In the event of insufficient testosterone production an almost complete balance of the functional, anatomic, and psychic deficiency symptoms can be achieved by substituting testosterone". These lines clearly describe what an important and effective hormone testosterone is.
HOW TO USE TESTOSTERONE ENANTHATE:One of the many testosterone substances is the testosterone enanthate. In a man it is normally used to treat hypogonadism resulting from androgen deficiency and anemia. Surprisingly, in medical schools testosterone enanthate is also used in women and children. Boys and male youth take it as growth therapy and women take it as an "additive treatment for certain growth forms of the nipples during post-menopause". In bodybuilding, however, it is THE "mass building steroid." No matter what you think of Dianabol, Anadrol and others, when it comes to strength, muscle mass, and rapid weight gains, testosterone is still the "King of the Road." Testosterone enanthate is the European counterpart to Testosterone cypionate which is predominantly available in the U.S.. Testosterone enanthate, as most trade names already suggest, is a long acting depot steroid. Depending on the metabolism and the body's initial hormone level it has duration of effect of two to three weeks so that theoretically very long intervals between injections are possible. Although Testosterone enanthate is effective for several weeks, it is injected at least once a week in bodybuilding, powerlifting, and weightlifting. This, by all means, makes sense since Testosterone enanthate has a plasma half life time in the blood of only one week.
TESTOSTERONE ENANTHATE DOSAGE:The decisive advantage of Testosterone enanthate, however, is that this substance has a very strong androgenic effect and is coupled with an intense anabolic component. This allows almost everyone, within a short time, to build up a lot of strength and mass. Rapid and strong weight gain is combined with distinct water retention since a retention of electrolytes and water occurs. A pleasant effect is that the enormous strength gain goes hand in hand with the water retention. Weightlifters and powerlifters, especially in the higher weight classes, appreciate this characteristic. In this group, Testosterone enanthate, Testosterone cypionate, and Sustanon are the number one steroids; this is also clearly reflected in the dosages. Dosages of 500 mg, 1000 mg or even 2000 mg per day are no rarity - mind you, per day, not per week. Sports disciplines requiring a high degree of raw power, aggressiveness, and stamina offer an excellent application for Depot -Testosterone. The distinct water retention has also other advantages. Those who have problems with their joints, shoulder cartilages or whose intervertebral disks, due to years of heavy training, show the first signs of wear, can get temporary relief by taking testosterone.
For the bodybuilder, the water retention that goes hand in hand with Testosterone enanthate cuts both ways. Certainly, one gets rapidly massive and strong; however, one's reflected image after a few weeks often shows completely flat, watery, and puffy muscles. The muscles appear as if they have been pumped up with air to new dimensions, yet during flexing nothing happens. Those who do not believe this should bother to go visit the so-called "bodybuilding champions" during the OFF-season when these exaggerated quantities of "Testo" come in. A look at the now defunct bodybuilding magazine WBF makes it even clearer. An additional problem when taking Testosterone enanthate is that the conversion rate to estrogen is very high. This, on one hand, leads the body to store more fat; on the other hand, feminization symptoms (gynecomastia) are not unusual. However, it must be clearly stated that this depends on the athlete's predisposition. By all means, there are athletes who even with 1000 mg +/week do not show feminization symptoms or fat deposits and who suffer very low water retention. Others, however, develop pain in their nipples by simply looking at a Testoviron Depot ampule. Yet the additional intake of Nolvadex and Proviron should be considered at a dosage level of 500 mg +/week. As already mentioned, Testo is effective for everyone, whether a beginner or Mr. Olympia. Testosterone enanthate also strongly promotes the regeneration process. This leads to distinctly shorter overcompensation phases, an increased feeling of well being, and a distinct energy increase. This is also the reason why several athletes are able to work out twice daily for several hours six times a week and continue to build up mass and strength. Those who can work out again two hours after a hard leg workout know that Testo works. Athletes who take Testosterone enanthate report an excessively strong pump effect during training. This "steroid pump" is attributed to an increased blood volume with a higher oxygen supply and a higher quantity of red blood cells. Those who take megadoses of Testosterone enanthate will already feel an enormous pump in their upper thighs and calves when climbing stairs. Despite this we recommend that steroid novices stay away from all testosterone compounds. To make it very clear: Those who have never taken steroids do not yet need any testosterone and should wait until later when the "weaker" steroids begin to have little effect. For the more advanced, Testosterone enanthate can either be taken alone or in combination with other compounds.
For adding mass Testosterone enanthate combines very well with Anadrol, Dianabol and Deca-Durabolin. As an example, a stack of 100 mg Anadrol/day, 200 mg Deca-Durabolin/ week, and 500 mg Testosterone enanthate/week works well. After six weeks of intake the Anadrol, for example, could be replaced by 40 mg Dianabol/day. Principally, Testosterone enanthate can be combined with any steroid in order to gain mass. Apparently a synergetic effect between the androgen, Testosterone enanthate, and the anabolic steroids occurs which results in their bonding witli several receptors.Those who draw too much water with Testosterone enanthate and Dianabol or Anadrol, or who are more interested in strength without gaining 20 pounds of body weight should take Testosterone enanthate together with Oxandrolone or Winstrol. The generally taken dose - as already mentioned - varies from 250 mg/week up to 2000 mg/day. In our opinion the most sensible dosage for most athletes is between 250-1000 mg/week. Normally a higher dosage should not be necessary. When taking up to 500 mg/week the dosage is normally taken all at once, thus 2 ml of solution are injected. A higher dosage should be divided into two injections per week. The quantity of the dose should be determined by the athlete's developmental stage, his goals, and the quantity of his previous steroid intake. The so-called beach and disco bodybuilders do not need 1000 mg of Testosterone enanthate/week. Our experience is that the Testosterone enanthate dosage for many, above all, depends on their financial resources. Since it is not, by any means, the most economic testosterone, most athletes do not take too much. Others switch to the cheaper Omnadren and because of the low price confinue "shooting" Omnadren.
Testosterone enanthate has a strong influence on the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis. The hypophysis is inhibited by a positive feedback. This leads to a negative influence on the endogenic testosterone production. Possible effects are described by the German Jenapharm GmbH in their package insert for the compound Testosteron Depot:"In a high dosed treatment with testosterone compounds an often reversible interruption or reduction of the spermatogenesis in the testes is to be expected and consequently also a reduction of the testes size." Consequently, after reading these statements, additional intake of HCG should be considered. Those who take Testosterone enanthate should consider the intake of HCG every 6-8 weeks. An injection of 5000 I.U. every fifth day over a period of 10 days (a total of 3 injections) helps to reduce this problem. At the end of the testosterone treatment the administration of HCG, Clomid, Nolvadex and Clenbuterol is now quite common. To some extent the use of these compounds helps absorb the catabolic phase and helps elevate the endogenic testosterone level. By this method the strength and mass loss which occur in any event can be reduced. Those who go off Testosterone enanthate "cold turkey" after several weeks of use will wonder how rapidly their body weights and former voluminous muscles will decrease. Even a slow tapering off phase, that is reducing the dosage step by step, will not prevent a noticeable reduction. The only options available to the athlete consist of taking testosterone stimulating compounds (HCG, Clomid, Cyclofenil), anticatabolic substances (Clenbuterol, Ephedrine), or the very expensive growth hormones, or of switching to milder steroids (Deca-Durabolin, Winstrol, Primobolan). Most can get massive and strong with Testosterone enanthate. However, only very few are able to retain their size after discontinuing the compound. This is also one of the reasons why really good bodybuilders, powerlifters, weightlighters, and others take the "stuff " all year long.
The side effects of Testosterone enanthate are mostly the distinct androgenic effect and the increased water retention. This is usually the reason for the frequent occurrence of hypertony. Those who have a predisposition for high blood pressure or whose blood pressure is elevated when they begin taking Testosterone enanthate should have it periodically checked by a physician. If necessary the intake of an antihypertensive drug such as Catapresan is advisable. Many athletes experience a strong acne vulgaris with Testosterone enanthate which manifests itself on the back, chest, shoulders, and arms more than on the face. Athletes who take large quantities of Testo can often be easily recognized because of these characteristics. It is interesting to note that in some athletes these characteristics only occur after use of the compound has been discontinued, which implies a rebound effect. In severe cases the medicine Accutane can help. The already discussed feminization symptoms, especially gynecomastia, require the intake of an antiestrogen. Sexual overstimulation with frequent erections at the beginning of intake is normal. In young athletes, "in addition to virilization, testosterone can also lead to an accelerated growth and bone maturation, to a premature epiphysial closing of the growth plates and thus a lower height". Since mostly taller athletes are successful in bodybuilding, young adults should reflect carefully before taking any anabolic/androgenic steroids, in particular, testosterone.
Other possible side effects are testicular atrophy, reduced spermatogenesis, and especially an increased aggressiveness. Those who transfer this aggressiveness to their training and not their environment do not have to worry. Unfortunately this is not the case in some athletes who take Testosterone enanthate. Testosterone and Finaject are both primary reasons for some eruptions. In particular, high doses are in part responsible for antisocial behavior among its users. One can talk here of a sort of "superman syndrome" that occurs in some users. Although Testosterone enanthate is broken down through the liver, this compound is only slightly toxic when taken in a reasonable dose; therefore, changes of the liver values do not occur as often as with the oral 1 7-alpha alkylated steroids. Further potential side effects can be deep voice and accelerated hair loss.
07-25-2005, 11:30 AM
Just so you know I am not trying to be pushy or a know it all. This is just my understanding and until I see more proof that sust. is a better option which I never have I would rather use enanthate and I am just trying to give you other angles and reasons why I have chosen this.
07-25-2005, 11:39 AM
no i dont think that at allOriginally Posted by max-rot98
Im new to this and any information that I gain I will take on board, its just that one of my mates at the gym suggested I go for sus & deca as I would â€śmake excellent gainsâ€?
To be honest I didnâ€™t like the idea of injecting 2 compounds on my first cycle
Also how painful are the injections?? This same guy reckons that the pain is around 8/9 out of 10???
07-25-2005, 11:41 AM
I have been told that the first one will be sore but the rest are pretty easy. I see beelz is here hopefully he'll chime in. Some of the biggest guys in my gym love sust. and swear by it but have never used enanthate. Big guys at your gym might not know as much as you think.
You will find alot of guys who think solutions to problems is more drugs. Ask those guys about pct and see what they say. You will find most of them very uneducated. Only one guy at my gym really knows what he's talking about the rest no jack ****.
07-25-2005, 11:44 AM
IMO, sust is nothing more than a marketing gimmick to attract guys to the 'unique blend' of 4 different types of test. but when it comes right down to it, test is test. if you're worried about bloat, then examine your diet. would you say glen was bloated when he reached 5% on 500mg/wk of test enanthate? now, don't get me wrong, sust is still test and it'll work fine. but you're going to have to inject EOD to take full advantage of the blend. if you don't, your test levels are going to fluctuate, kinda like a yo-yo effect. save your money, save your time, go enanthate.
07-25-2005, 11:46 AM
07-25-2005, 11:53 AM
i wanna start real soon but dont wanna jump into it without knowing exactly what im doingOriginally Posted by max-rot98
maybe in a couple of months, i was gonna do another cycle of m1t but i might allow that and go straight to test e
i have nolva, will get some clomid will i need hcg?
07-25-2005, 11:54 AM
all these bros are right go with enathate, you'd have to inject eod for sust to really get a good effect on you, and at that rate of injections you would be taking too much for your first cycle go with enathate for now, save the sust for later
07-25-2005, 11:55 AM
07-25-2005, 12:01 PM
HCG isn't a requirement but it's definately recommended to keep the nuts in check. run it for the duration of your cycle at 250iu's 2x/wk. PCT starts 2 weeks after your last enanthate injection. if you're going to use deca as well, stop it one week before you stop the test enanthate. for this reason, i would run it like this:Originally Posted by BOVEY
testenan 500/wk (250mg on mon/thur)
deca 400mg/wk (200mg on mon/thur)
weeks 1-4 (optional, if available)
dbol 30mg ed
HCG 500iu's (250iu's on mon/thur)
07-25-2005, 12:02 PM
Well when it comes to hcg I don't know that is up to you. I am not using it this cycle. I think after this cycle I will try adding deca to the mix and I will def. need it then. That is your call bro. I would like to see what test and dbol are like on their own. If you have a good pct you will be fine IMO. But if you do anything else besides test than you will probably need it. If you have nolva you might want to get some arimidex. Use nolva on cycle if you have gyno and use arimidex if bloat gets out of control. And I would suggest using which one is better for you in regards to nolva or clomid during pct. Have you though of raloxifene?
07-25-2005, 12:04 PM
07-25-2005, 12:08 PM
without a doubt, test only is great for a first cycle. however, a lot of guys run deca with their first cycle being that it's good for joints/ligaments, etc. the wiser route would be test only to judge effects. next cycle, add deca, judge accordingly......etc.
as for the dbol, it makes the first month more interesting while waiting for the long esters to kick in.
either way, it'll be a great first timers cycle. provided the diet is in check.
07-25-2005, 12:10 PM
its OK to run deca with a first cycle .. but here is why i wouldn't .. deca takes a long time to kick in and you have to run test e a week past the deca so they clear at the same time .. since i wouldn't run deca for anything less than 12 weeks .. you are looking at a 13 week cycle for your first cycle .. which isn't that long but some may only want to go 10 weeks
plus you don't get a good feeling for how you react to test itself since you don't know what to attribute to deca or test
on a side note i will never do another cycle without hcg .. its a god send
07-25-2005, 12:11 PM
07-25-2005, 12:15 PM
07-26-2005, 09:10 AM
07-26-2005, 09:24 AM
pain is usually the worst a day or 2 after and should subside by day 3. The actual injection is nothing, not even like a bee sting. This is assuming of course you dont hit a nerve or decide to inject into a blood vessel lol.Originally Posted by BOVEY
07-26-2005, 09:31 AM
I was told that it hurts when first entering the muscle, stings whilst the oil is being injected and then also on withdrawal would you say this is correct?Originally Posted by Guido
Also you cant tense the muscle as it goes in, this im sure I will find quite difficult
I was told also that it is quite painful afterwards also, what does it feel like? a dead leg or something, how bad is it, does it put you off training?
I will be injecting into my glute
07-26-2005, 09:39 AM
damn bro, whoever told you this must be injecting with a 14G to the nipple. it's nothing like that. on my current cycle, i've been doing nothing but glute shots on mon/thur at 3ml's each with a 25G 1". the only problem i've ran into is how long it takes to inject that much oil through that small of a gauge. untensing the muscle is the easy part, just rest your weight on the opposite leg if standing. you might pretty sore for the first couple of injections but after those, it's just a slight soreness that you can hardly notice. doesn't effect my training at all.
07-26-2005, 09:41 AM
Well if you get a 'dead leg' you've injected into your sciatic nerve so you're in some trouble. There is some pain while you depress the plunger and the oil enters the muscle. As far as the actual needle entering the muscle, a good trick is to give the site a hard slap, as it will exhaust the pain fibers momentarily so you cant feel the pain of the needle entering in. All in all though the main concern is the soreness a few days after. Some brands and preparations are different in this regard. For instance, I shot Golden Triangle's Deca and Sust on Saturday around noon time and now its Tuesday morning and I'm still a little sore. 3 days should be the cap on injection soreness. Anything longer than that and i'd start to get concerned.Originally Posted by BOVEY
Ryan is right about one thing though. It's a pain in the ass pushing something like 3 cc of an oil solution through a 22 G needle (which is what I use, 25 G must be even more of a PITA)
07-26-2005, 09:59 AM
07-26-2005, 10:02 AM
Similar Forum Threads
- By stangman6816 in forum AnabolicsReplies: 2Last Post: 10-11-2005, 12:55 AM
- By Kroms_laugh in forum AnabolicsReplies: 1Last Post: 07-24-2005, 08:27 PM
- By Gbart in forum Weight LossReplies: 7Last Post: 07-16-2005, 09:55 PM
- By Deltmaster in forum AnabolicsReplies: 1Last Post: 09-08-2004, 04:11 PM
- By FOCUS in forum AnabolicsReplies: 5Last Post: 08-15-2004, 08:33 PM