Lethargy on TRT

[Brain5ick]

So I’ve been on TRT for 5 weeks now at 80mg a week (cyp) and I’m tired all through the day and not really sleeping at night, only able to just lay there with my eyes closed for the night, no sleep. My doctor has changed his stance on this today and said he wants to get my free test up to 75 and my serum doesn’t matter (WHAT?). I took labs before my shot today so I should know what my levels are in about 4 days but my doc said he doesn’t see a reason I’d have to go over 100mg per week. This is the same doc that said he wanted my levels between 900 and 1100ng/dL. What should I do? What’s going on with my energy and sleep???

 

[drejb]

What’s your E2 level? Are you also on HCG or Adex?

 

[Brain5ick]

My I only have labs from the day of my first appointment (before my first shot) my E2 was 7, Test was 178ng/dL. I’m not on either of those. I’m pushing for HCG but he doesn’t see it as necessary just yet, no Arimidex either.

 

[Renew1]

I'm also wondering how high your Estrogen is.

 

[Brain5ick]

I'm also wondering how high your Estrogen is.

Yeah I only have those readings right now. I’ll post the new ones as soon as I get them.

 

[Brain5ick]

These are from before my first shot. IGF1 is high, idk what pro-insulin is though.

 

[JoePaul39]

I'm also wondering how high your Estrogen is.

No way to tell without test, but with a dosage of test at only 80 mg a week and an initial estrogen reading pre trt at only 7 I would doubt it is high. I am in range of normal on estrogen and taking more than twice that dosage test at 175 mg a week. 200 mg test a week put my estrogen too high so I had the test dosage lowered to 175 a week to avoid taking Arimidex. Of course everyone is different. If it were me I would seek a doctor that shoots to at
get test ranges at optimal around 800 to 950.

 

[Renew1]

Yeah I only have those readings right now. I’ll post the new ones as soon as I get them.

Ok, thanks bro.

Estrogen levels that are out of range (either way) can make you feel really bad.

 

[Brain5ick]

Ok, thanks bro.

Estrogen levels that are out of range (either way) can make you feel really bad.

What do you think about the IGF-1 and other hormones?

 

[Renew1]

What do you think about the IGF-1 and other hormones?

I'm not an expert on IGF-1 levels. But like you said.... These are "before" numbers anyway.

 

[Codybenz]

My personal opinion is that I don't think your estrogen is getting high enough to cause those problems with only 80mg a week.

I said it on your original post and I will say it again, your dose is too low. And if your doc thinks he is going to get you in the 900ng/dl range with 100mg or less a week. You need to get you another doctor.

I bet your total test number hasn't risen that much over your baseline. I'm guessing in the 300's your body has started shutting down natural test production.

Some people feel fine in the 3-500 range. Some people don't. I'm guessing you need to be higher

Now estrogen being low can cause those problems. That may be more of the issue which means you don't have enough total test in your body for it to convert to estrogen. Again your test dose needs to be upped

 

[Brain5ick]

My personal opinion is that I don't think your estrogen is getting high enough to cause those problems with only 80mg a week.

I said it on your original post and I will say it again, your dose is too low. And if your doc thinks he is going to get you in the 900ng/dl range with 100mg or less a week. You need to get you another doctor.

I bet your total test number hasn't risen that much over your baseline. I'm guessing in the 300's your body has started shutting down natural test production.

Some people feel fine in the 3-500 range. Some people don't. I'm guessing you need to be higher

Yeah this all needs to change. My primary care doc wanted me on TRT but I decided to go through this doctor since he’s a “specialist” but this just isn’t working out well.

 

[Brain5ick]

Oh, other thing I’ve noticed, all my joints are super stiff and feel dry. Shoulders, elbows, knees, hands, etc. not sure if that has to do with this though.

 

[drejb]

E2 is quite low. You’re one of the lucky ones. My test was low and estrogen was high BEFORE starting TRT. So just be thankful you probably won’t need arimidex. I was on 130mg test, .5adex for 6 months and felt like ****. Levels were at around 850-900. It wasn’t until I hopped on 1000iu if HCG that my energy levels / libido / etc started feeling great. I’m now on 120test E. .75 adex and 1000hcg

Levels are 1300 / 1400 test (peaked). 135e2 and I feel pretty great. I will probably be lowering my test to around 100 because I’d like to peak at around 1000-1100

I couldn’t tell you why. But Maybe adding HCG to protocol would help like it did for me? It’s probably a good idea anyway especially if you still want to have kids (not sure about your age or situation there). Also it’ll probably raise your E2 levels as well

Cheers

 

[Brain5ick]

E2 is quite low. You’re one of the lucky ones. My test was low and estrogen was high BEFORE starting TRT. So just be thankful you probably won’t need arimidex. I was on 130mg test, .5adex for 6 months and felt like ****. Levels were at around 850-900. It wasn’t until I hopped on 1000iu if HCG that my energy levels / libido / etc started feeling great. I’m now on 120test E. .75 adex and 1000hcg

Levels are 1300 / 1400 test (peaked). 135e2 and I feel pretty great. I will probably be lowering my test to around 100 because I’d like to peak at around 1000-1100

I couldn’t tell you why. But Maybe adding HCG to protocol would help like it did for me? It’s probably a good idea anyway especially if you still want to have kids (not sure about your age or situation there). Also it’ll probably raise your E2 levels as well

Cheers

I’m 23 with 1 kid already, but still want to have more. My doc said test would actually help me have a kid, and wouldn’t harm my chances. I feel the information on this one is off on his part so we just have to disagree.

 

[drejb]

I’m 23 with 1 kid already, but still want to have more. My doc said test would actually help me have a kid, and wouldn’t harm my chances. I feel the information on this one is off on his part so we just have to disagree.

I would definitely be a little weary of that advice.

 

[Codybenz]

Oh, other thing I’ve noticed, all my joints are super stiff and feel dry. Shoulders, elbows, knees, hands, etc. not sure if that has to do with this though.

He didn't put you on any type of estrogen blocker too did he? That sound like low estrogen with the dry joints

 

[Brain5ick]

He didn't put you on any type of estrogen blocker too did he? That sound like low estrogen with the dry joints

He did not, said there was no need for one

 

[Codybenz]

He did not, said there was no need for one

No that's good, at that dose you shouldn't need one

 

[drejb]

No that's good, at that dose you shouldn't need one

I started adex at a 80mg test E dose. But I also started TRT at 165 E2. Was definitely needed in my case. Wish I didn’t need to take it

 

[Brain5ick]

I started adex at a 80mg test E dose. But I also started TRT at 165 E2. Was definitely needed in my case. Wish I didn’t need to take it

The less stuff I have to take the better tbh. I wouldn’t mind it, but if I don’t have to remember to take it then that’s fine by me lol. Hoping my doc increases my dose. If my bloodwork says it needs to be higher, I may get a second opinion. I may already go to another doc for HCG.

 

[Brain5ick]

So my labs came back.
Estrodiol 16pg/ml
Test serum 424ng/dL
Free test is 86.9pg/ml
Fsh 0.8 mIU/ml
LH 1.0 mIU/ml

 

[Codybenz]

Tell him to double your test dose, prescribe an AI just in case you need it and then enjoy that 900 range test level. Try to keep estogen in the 20-30 range and have him recheck you again soon.

That's my trt 2 cents

 

[Brain5ick]

Tell him to double your test dose, prescribe an AI just in case you need it and then enjoy that 900 range test level. Try to keep estogen in the 20-30 range and have him recheck you again soon.

That's my trt 2 cents

I called him today and asked about it and he said he likes my numbers where they are, which is disappointing to say the least.

 

[JoePaul39]

Tell him to double your test dose, prescribe an AI just in case you need it and then enjoy that 900 range test level. Try to keep estogen in the 20-30 range and have him recheck you again soon.

That's my trt 2 cents

Think if the doctor did that dose you recommend he would test at a 900 even after 7 days out? I take 175 mg a week and test in the low 600s 7 days after my shot, but I think I am the exception rather than the rule.

 

[JoePaul39]

I called him today and asked about it and he said he likes my numbers where they are, which is disappointing to say the least.

I would definetly get a different doctor then!

 

[JoePaul39]

So my labs came back.
Estrodiol 16pg/ml
Test serum 424ng/dL
Free test is 86.9pg/ml
Fsh 0.8 mIU/ml
LH 1.0 mIU/ml

Test is low for optimal trt range. Estradiol is too low whenever under 20. Any level under 20 for estradiol puts you at risk for osteoporosis.

 

[thebigt]

I've been on trt close to 10 years. dermacrine really helps with energy level.

 

[Renew1]

Dermacrine should help with your Estradiol as well.

 

[Codybenz]

Think if the doctor did that dose you recommend he would test at a 900 even after 7 days out? I take 175 mg a week and test in the low 600s 7 days after my shot, but I think I am the exception rather than the rule.

Brain get a new doctor man. There is no reason to be taking exogenous test and not get it a lot higher to miximize benefits

Joe paul everybody is different the way they metabolize the ester. I'm on 150mg and that puts me in the upper 900 range. If he is in the 450s and assuming his natural test is already shutdown doubling the dose should almost double his number, lots of variables though which is why bloodwork every few months until the dose is dialed in is best. But if his doctor likes his numbers he needs a new docotr

 

[JoePaul39]

Brain get a new doctor man. There is no reason to be taking exogenous test and not get it a lot higher to miximize benefits

Joe paul everybody is different the way they metabolize the ester. I'm on 150mg and that puts me in the upper 900 range. If he is in the 450s and assuming his natural test is already shutdown doubling the dose should almost double his number, lots of variables though which is why bloodwork every few months until the dose is dialed in is best. But if his doctor likes his numbers he needs a new docotr

Man 900 is a great reading! Is that even 7 days out? Imagine I am a 900, but only a couple days after my shot.

 

[thebigt]

Dermacrine should help with your Estradiol as well.

I use dermacrine year round with only an occasional break, when I do take a break from it I really notice the difference!!!

 

[Renew1]

I use dermacrine year round with only an occasional break, when I do take a break from it I really notice the difference!!!

Nice!
I've only used it a few times on PH/DS cycles, but I definitely felt better when I ran it.
(But I'm not on TRT).

 

[Brain5ick]

I’ll look into dermacrine for sure. I don’t have any other doctors for TRT in the area after I did some looking though. I’m kind of in between places too so my only option is online TRT. Just so expensive though.

 

[Codybenz]

Man 900 is a great reading! Is that even 7 days out? Imagine I am a 900, but only a couple days after my shot.

Yes all the trt readings should be 7 days out. Most good docs want you in the 900-1000 range 7 days after shot. Really good docs like 1000-1100 but depends on if it's regulated by the health board in that state

 

[Brain5ick]

Do you guys have any other online TRT services to throw out there? I know I already posted one but if there’s anything else I could look into it’d be great.

 

[JoePaul39]

Do you guys have any other online TRT services to throw out there? I know I already posted one but if there’s anything else I could look into it’d be great.

Board Sponsor is Entourage Medical. Think it is under $120 a month.

 

[Brain5ick]

Board Sponsor is Entourage Medical. Think it is under $120 a month.

Sadly entourage does not serve my state

 

[Renew1]

Sadly entourage does not serve my state

I'm sorry brother, I forgot what state you're in.

 

[Admin_Error]

I suggest look for a new Doc.

There are a few great clinics out there with excellent Drs and Drs that offer proper protocols and who truly know what there doing. Good places like these don’t try to nickel and dime you for everything etc. Places like these also care about there patients. This is what you should be looking for.

If you google: excelmale how to find a good doctor that can point you to the right direction. I’d go through that forum and do your research. There a few mention of those places on here. So if you google there name + anabolicminds you can find post on here about them. Just a general google about what you find. This should help you out. Then you can come back here on whatever your decision is and we get you a bit more feedback.

Overall you dosage for test should have be higher with twice a week pinning. I would have had you on a lose dose HCG to. Along with a low dose DHEA supplement to start. Your estrogen will follow suite to your testosterone as your levels goes up. Estrogen sensitive test of 20-30+/- is a good number to be at. There no problem being on the higher end of that like 50 and no more then that. As long as you had no high estrogen sides.

Your a low SHBG guy, good chance is the higher test dosage etc going to drop that number. Low SHBG guys require a different protocol vs someone whose higher. I would not be concerned with that just yet. To start you just need a better overall protocol and reevaluate how you feel in 8 weeks with blood work. Then from there make small changes as needed. Changes etc take time.

Once your dialed in for a while and you still feel like your missing a bit of energy levels etc. Then we look at any B Vitamins deficiency, iron, pregnenolone, etc and make those adjustments. It would be wise to look at all those blood work or do them and just make one large adjustment in one good or just focus on trt side for now, then address any other issues later on.

 

[JoePaul39]

Your estrogen will follow suite to your testosterone as your levels goes up. Estrogen sensitive test of 20-30+/- is a good number to be at. There no problem being on the higher end of that like 50 and no more then that. .

Is that scale with Labcorp’s Sensitive scale? As long as no Estradiol sides you dr said it is ok to go up to 50? What point number maximum does the test itself consider too high and thus out of range? The reason I ask is because I came back about 3 or 4 points too high (just about a 40) using Labcorp’s Sensitive test so I had them lower my test dosage from 200 mg to 175 mg. I had no sides. Thinking about having upped again if that isn’t too high. I just freaked out that it was “out of range” and have no desire to take an AI so I had the test dosage lowered.

 

[thebigt]

Nice!
I've only used it a few times on PH/DS cycles, but I definitely felt better when I ran it.
(But I'm not on TRT).

try dermacrine off cycle, I think you will like the feel good/energetic affect....use my code THEBIGT and save 25% at both iconicformulations.com and ironlegion.com.

 

[Admin_Error]

Is that scale with Labcorp’s Sensitive scale? As long as no Estradiol sides you dr said it is ok to go up to 50? What point number maximum does the test itself consider too high and thus out of range? The reason I ask is because I came back about 3 or 4 points too high (just about a 40) using Labcorp’s Sensitive test so I had them lower my test dosage from 200 mg to 175 mg. I had no sides. Thinking about having upped again if that isn’t too high. I just freaked out that it was “out of range” and have no desire to take an AI so I had the test dosage lowered.

LabCorp is 35 & Quest is 29 (These are the max #s). There no problem being a 40 on that sensitive test. If you don't have any high estrogen sides then stay. If that number stay constant then stay. I'd say stay under 50 max. I think each person needs to compare for theremself, evelatue there numbers, and then make adjustment if there too low or to high based on sides etc. No need to sweat for @ 5 point increase. Different labs different maxes.


Side note: Standard blood work is like 1200 for TT, there a immunoassay test thats 827 for TT. As you can see there a variation in testing method along with lab. I would say there is no number that to high as long as all your blood work in check and steady like estrogen, cbc (blood #s), etc etc. There no problem sitting above the so called baseline numbers. If you happen to have a 1400 TT and your blood work 100% steady and within range, you feel great, don't have to donate blood etc. Then stay where you at. Everyone different. One may not feel there best that high. So everyone just needs to gauge their own numbers. This is why having a solid good Doctor is best. (I'm not a Dr).

 

[LilPsychotic]

Yeah, that’s way low of a doseage. I’m prescribed 200 mgs/ week 40 test P 160 test C. It works well for me, I just run anastrozole at 0.5 mg / week

 

[thebigt]

Yeah, that’s way low of a doseage. I’m prescribed 200 mgs/ week 40 test P 160 test C. It works well for me, I just run anastrozole at 0.5 mg / week

what is your age?

 

[Brain5ick]

Yeah, that’s way low of a doseage. I’m prescribed 200 mgs/ week 40 test P 160 test C. It works well for me, I just run anastrozole at 0.5 mg / week

You’re actually not too far from me. Do you go to a clinic in Pitt?

 

[Brain5ick]

Yeah, that’s way low of a doseage. I’m prescribed 200 mgs/ week 40 test P 160 test C. It works well for me, I just run anastrozole at 0.5 mg / week

I ask because I’m in town for a little while and I’ll be in Bethel Park sometime this week and next week. If I could get a good reference and an appointment then I’d totally do that because I visit family around here all the time.

 

[LilPsychotic]

I ask because I’m in town for a little while and I’ll be in Bethel Park sometime this week and next week. If I could get a good reference and an appointment then I’d totally do that because I visit family around here all the time.

I live in South Park. Shoot me a PM and I’ll give you the info. They are a good group, and won’t give you any BS. They’ll just write you whatever you want as long as it’s legal

 

[LilPsychotic]

what is your age?

I’m 37

 

[thebigt]

I’m 37

I was hoping you would be older...I started trt around 50 and it's been a rough ride at times.


I wish you all the best and hope your road will be less bumpy than mine!!!