Sore, low-energy lately

[PatWheeler]

I'm two months into my first ever cycle. 10mg ED lgd/mk-677. About 4-5 weeks in I started noticing some nice strength gains and was PR'ing weekly. Now for the last two weeks, I've kind of had to drag myself to the gym and push my way through my sessions. Despite the title, I haven't been sore as much as I'm picking up little muscle strains and stuff like that. The kind of stuff that clears up in a couple of days if you don't push it.

Background is 40 years old, 6', 215lbs, probably 15-20% at the moment, trained consistently for 3 years. Diet has been a little "suspicious" lately but nothing too bad and always hitting my protein numbers.

Is this normal? I know lgd can suppress, but I'm on a low dose and still hitting it. Any ideas or am I just getting old??

 

[KingAnt]

I know absolutely zero about those compounds. But usually when people feel the fatigue around that time frame it has something to do with low test or no test base. Some people say it can be a sign of high estrogen as well. Just something to research. I'm sure some of the guys will chime in with better knowledge soon.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Mate LGD is shown to be supressive at 1mg/day. 12mg got my test down to just over 1 nmol when i took it.

Most people run it with a dhea base to keep lethargy at bay.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Like BennyMagoo79 said.
By now your test is low and your estrogen too (sore joints, slow recovery/healing). Can't run LGD for too long without test base.

 

[Jeremyk1]

I wouldn’t say you can’t run without a test base. I didn’t, but I’m weird. Okay, don’t listen to me. I can’t say for aches, but for me, I seem to feel really stiff when taking some SARMs. Kinda hurts sitting up first thing in the morning and I have to spend a little extra time warming up and stretching out a bit before workouts.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

I wouldn’t say you can’t run without a test base. I didn’t, but I’m weird. Okay, don’t listen to me. I can’t say for aches, but for me, I seem to feel really stiff when taking some SARMs. Kinda hurts sitting up first thing in the morning and I have to spend a little extra time warming up and stretching out a bit before workouts.

Dhea mitigates this.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Dhea mitigates this.

Not really, but curbs lethargy to a point. The problem is not the lethargy -or joint pain from lowered e2. The problem is that:

 

[Jeremyk1]

Not really, but curbs lethargy to a point. The problem is not the lethargy -or joint pain from lowered e2. The problem is that:

View attachment 171366

I would argue that little chart is grossly oversimplified, but it definitely makes a good point that most people miss. Personally, I made good gains from 10mg of LGD, and I didn’t even start picking up real steam until several weeks in.

 

[PatWheeler]

Not really, but curbs lethargy to a point. The problem is not the lethargy -or joint pain from lowered e2. The problem is that:

View attachment 171366

 

[hairygrandpa]

This pretty much mirrors my experience. I definitely peaked 2-3 weeks ago and felt like a world beater, which would have been right around the 4-5 week mark. And now things just feel more like a struggle.

So then....kick the lgd and begin pct, or add some short esther base and finish this off? Secondly, I assume it's ok to continue with the MK or am I mistaken?

EDIT:
*doh* Asked the above without taking a moment to think. Seems a lot smarter to run pct first and get test back to normal before starting anything else.

Many thanks for the help.

You theoretically could now double the LGD dose and continue, to keep gaining, LOL. PCT is the sound choice here, you are right. Mk 677 never convinced me to be useful for keeping gains in PCT. It even could be detrimental. It lowers insulin sensitivity over time and has shown to be best used in an anabolic environment. It also may give you cravings for food, not ideal for PCT. At most, it may not hurt taking it -but I doubt it helps.

 

[SDPonce63]

LGD is the culprit. Next time use Dermacrine as a test base. I had no issues with it.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I would argue that little chart is grossly oversimplified, but it definitely makes a good point that most people miss. Personally, I made good gains from 10mg of LGD, and I didn’t even start picking up real steam until several weeks in.

Grossly is an understatement, hehe. But a graph explains it best. I was prepared to respond to an objection, involving anabolic/androgenic ratios. And how much potent LGD supposedly is. I heard of people having gains from LGD cycles -but my personal experience was meh, even with test as a base and a dosing of 20mg/d.

 

[Chados]

You theoretically could now double the LGD dose and continue, to keep gaining, LOL. PCT is the sound choice here, you are right. Mk 677 never convinced me to be useful for keeping gains in PCT. It even could be detrimental. It lowers insulin sensitivity over time and has shown to be best used in an anabolic environment. It also may give you cravings for food, not ideal for PCT. At most, it may not hurt taking it -but I doubt it helps.

You did take a quite large amount though haha.. I haven't bloated or anything and I'm at month 4 at 25mg. I also think one has to run it for a long time for it to be used in pct. Maybe run it 3 months before the cycle even starting and then run it through cycle and pct another 2 or 3 months. Don't think its a miracle but we'll see.

 

[hairygrandpa]

You did take a quite large amount though haha.. I haven't bloated or anything and I'm at month 4 at 25mg. I also think one has to run it for a long time for it to be used in pct. Maybe run it 3 months before the cycle even starting and then run it through cycle and pct another 2 or 3 months. Don't think its a miracle but we'll see.

Don't remember me of my hazardous (failed) self experiments, LOL.
I have enough Ibutamoren in the fridge for a 6 month run. This time not mega dosing it, LOL. One thing is clear to me though, I dropped all SARMS use for good. I thought that their low liver toxicity gave them a small advantage over methylated orals -but nowadays I think they are not worth it at all.

My bet is MK-677 helps recovery and healing, how do you feel on it?

 

[PatWheeler]

You theoretically could now double the LGD dose and continue, to keep gaining, LOL. PCT is the sound choice here, you are right. Mk 677 never convinced me to be useful for keeping gains in PCT. It even could be detrimental. It lowers insulin sensitivity over time and has shown to be best used in an anabolic environment. It also may give you cravings for food, not ideal for PCT. At most, it may not hurt taking it -but I doubt it helps.

Lol come on man...I don't need any help making wrong turns!

thanks again to all for the advice. I liked everything about the sarms except the hunger craving from the mk, those can go straight to hell, but I think I'll probably do a pct then come back again with the recommended dermacrine base. Feeling like a beast in the gym is just way too fun and addictive.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Lol come on man...I don't need any help making wrong turns!

thanks again to all for the advice. I liked everything about the sarms except the hunger craving from the mk, those can go straight to hell, but I think I'll probably do a pct then come back again with the recommended dermacrine base. Feeling like a beast in the gym is just way too fun and addictive.

Look, dermacrine is called a "base" but it surely isn't. Does it work? Yes, I liked it, before discovering other "goodies", like transdermal trestolone.

Thing is, if you once used trest (OL dermatr3st is the BEST, period), you are inches away from pinning gear.

If you don't wanna go the roid route, I recommend to use a SERM, like Torem or Clomid DURING short cycles -and extend their use into PCT. Its the latest, most modern approach. You will find large discussions about it here on AM. I recommended it to several friends, all completed their cycles with good results and had a successful PCT.

Like:
DMZ: 30mg/d 30/30/30/30/30
Torem: 60/60/60/60/60/60/60/60 last 3 weeks is PCT

Edit:

And stop calling MK-677 a SARM, because it isn't.

 

[Chados]

Don't remember me of my hazardous (failed) self experiments, LOL.
I have enough Ibutamoren in the fridge for a 6 month run. This time not mega dosing it, LOL. One thing is clear to me though, I dropped all SARMS use for good. I thought that their low liver toxicity gave them a small advantage over methylated orals -but nowadays I think they are not worth it at all.

My bet is MK-677 helps recovery and healing, how do you feel on it?

Haha apparently it doesn't do much more after 25mg. Sarms can't be compared to aas true, they can only be compared to being natural. I can tell you this, winstrol always makes my fingers hurt and while running mk I get nothing of that.

I really don't feel anything special and I didn't expect it either but I do believe it'll help during pct as long as it has been activated in your body to its full potential which arguably is between 3 months to a year. Running it for 2 months probably won't do anything at all.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Haha apparently it doesn't do much more after 25mg. Sarms can't be compared to aas true, they can only be compared to being natural. I can tell you this, winstrol always makes my fingers hurt and while running mk I get nothing of that.

I really don't feel anything special and I didn't expect it either but I do believe it'll help during pct as long as it has been activated in your body to its full potential which arguably is between 3 months to a year. Running it for 2 months probably won't do anything at all.

No weird "plastic-3d dreams" ? No tingling in hands on waking up? No cravings? No shortened sleep cycles? All those are classic sides of MK-677. I got it all, as I always get ALL the sides from anything, LOL!
Seriously, if you don't have at least 2 of the mentioned sides, consider that your Ibutamoren is bunk.

 

[Chados]

No weird "plastic-3d dreams" ? No tingling in hands on waking up? No cravings? No shortened sleep cycles? All those are classic sides of MK-677. I got it all, as I always get ALL the sides from anything, LOL!
Seriously, if you don't have at least 2 of the mentioned sides, consider that your Ibutamoren is bunk.

Thing with me is that I dream extremely much and my dreams seems very real but I felt I had more dreams when starting the mk. The tingling I noticed first month but I think it's gone now (my foot just started tingling lol)

No cravings or sleep problems. I am quite the opposite, the only sides I've ever felt was tren anxiety during pct and winstrol makes my fingers hurt a bit. Sure I've had acne and things like that but that's impossible not to experience.. Oh and I crashed my Estro once which made me sleep 3 times a day that was horrible

 

[PatWheeler]

Look, dermacrine is called a "base" but it surely isn't. Does it work? Yes, I liked it, before discovering other "goodies", like transdermal trestolone.

Thing is, if you once used trest (OL dermatr3st is the BEST, period), you are inches away from pinning gear.

If you don't wanna go the roid route, I recommend to use a SERM, like Torem or Clomid DURING short cycles -and extend their use into PCT. Its the latest, most modern approach. You will find large discussions about it here on AM. I recommended it to several friends, all completed their cycles with good results and had a successful PCT.

Like:
DMZ: 30mg/d 30/30/30/30/30
Torem: 60/60/60/60/60/60/60/60 last 3 weeks is PCT

Edit:

And stop calling MK-677 a SARM, because it isn't.

I actually just read a thread the other day about SERMs during cycle. From what I read and at my current level of understanding...common sense said that it may be beneficial, and at worst couldn't hurt anything. Wish I would have read that before I started, but I've already got clomid and will start that today.

Tr3st, eh?...seen lots of threads about that but haven't researched it much. Given what little I've read and a quick scan of costs, I'd probably just go the test route after some research on the right blend. Awesome, a whole new rabbit hole to venture down, lol.

And yeah, I know mk is a gh marker and not technically a sarm, just being lazy since they're usually grouped together in conversations and research websites.

 

[PatWheeler]

No weird "plastic-3d dreams" ? No tingling in hands on waking up? No cravings? No shortened sleep cycles? All those are classic sides of MK-677. I got it all, as I always get ALL the sides from anything, LOL!
Seriously, if you don't have at least 2 of the mentioned sides, consider that your Ibutamoren is bunk.

I had the tingling in hands for the first month but that went away. My sleep and dreams have been great, other than the last two weeks I have woken up every morning at exactly 4am. So weird, and really no explanation other than a side as you mentioned.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Thing with me is that I dream extremely much and my dreams seems very real but I felt I had more dreams when starting the mk. The tingling I noticed first month but I think it's gone now (my foot just started tingling lol)

No cravings or sleep problems. I am quite the opposite, the only sides I've ever felt was tren anxiety during pct and winstrol makes my fingers hurt a bit. Sure I've had acne and things like that but that's impossible not to experience.. Oh and I crashed my Estro once which made me sleep 3 times a day that was horrible

Hm. If I were you, I would get a small batch of Ibutamoren from another source, just to make sure. If you use it long term it couldn't hurt, right?
The dreams on that stuff are totally different from anything I know, no nightmares but like virtual reality googles. Also, at the beginning I had vertigo. All sleep cut short to 5 hours max -but being refreshed anyway. Numb hands on awakening a few weeks in. Later, after month 4 cramps and bloat -but by then I took 50mg/d.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I actually just read a thread the other day about SERMs during cycle. From what I read and at my current level of understanding...common sense said that it may be beneficial, and at worst couldn't hurt anything. Wish I would have read that before I started, but I've already got clomid and will start that today.

Tr3st, eh?...seen lots of threads about that but haven't researched it much. Given what little I've read and a quick scan of costs, I'd probably just go the test route after some research on the right blend. Awesome, a whole new rabbit hole to venture down, lol.

And yeah, I know mk is a gh marker and not technically a sarm, just being lazy since they're usually grouped together in conversations and research websites.

Plain test is way more cost effective, even maybe safer than PH's and SARMS.
The thing with MK not being a SARM is somewhat important, as I mentioned not wasting any money on SARMS anymore -but still considering taking MK.
Well, its not even remotely related to a SARM. I see it as "the poor mans HGH".

 

[Chados]

Hm. If I were you, I would get a small batch of Ibutamoren from another source, just to make sure. If you use it long term it couldn't hurt, right?
The dreams on that stuff are totally different from anything I know, no nightmares but like virtual reality googles. Also, at the beginning I had vertigo. All sleep cut short to 5 hours max -but being refreshed anyway. Numb hands on awakening a few weeks in. Later, after month 4 cramps and bloat -but by then I took 50mg/d.

I've used two different brands and they are both from good sources. I do wake up a little early sometimes but I'm not sure if it's the mk. I felt the dreams in the beginning but as I said I dream very real normally and it's not anything crazy to me. Also granted I'm on a low carb diet which could explain why I don't bloat + the cycle I was on definitely helped.

 

[AntM1564]

I About 4-5 weeks in I started noticing some nice strength gains and was PR'ing weekly.

I think that is your problem. I am going through this as well too. Yes, anabolics will help with muscle recovery, but that doesn't mean you should push yourself every single workout in every week. Remember, your muscles might recover, but your CNS needs to recover as well. If you are going in trying to hit PRs every single workout, or pretty damn close for weeks on weeks on weeks, your CNS is going to be fatigued. Like I said, I think I am having this issue currently on cycle. What I would suggest is cutting back the intensity of your workout. Go back to what your would do off cycle, stick to lighter weights for a week and see how you feel.

 

[Whisky]

Plain test is way more cost effective, even maybe safer than PH's and SARMS.
The thing with MK not being a SARM is somewhat important, as I mentioned not wasting any money on SARMS anymore -but still considering taking MK.
Well, its not even remotely related to a SARM. I see it as "the poor mans HGH".

I’ve run mk just over a year now and imo the healing and recovery is by far the best attribute. Used fusion and dna in that time with no noticeable difference between the two.

It makes me hold water for sure but in turn that seemed to help my joints. Sleeps been hit and miss. I personally never got the tingling hands or increase in hunger (but I’m always hungry anyway).

Going to drop it during my current cycle and take a break for 6 months. Will be interesting to note the difference then....

 

[PatWheeler]

I think that is your problem. I am going through this as well too. Yes, anabolics will help with muscle recovery, but that doesn't mean you should push yourself every single workout in every week. Remember, your muscles might recover, but your CNS needs to recover as well. If you are going in trying to hit PRs every single workout, or pretty damn close for weeks on weeks on weeks, your CNS is going to be fatigued. Like I said, I think I am having this issue currently on cycle. What I would suggest is cutting back the intensity of your workout. Go back to what your would do off cycle, stick to lighter weights for a week and see how you feel.

Yeah that’s part of it, but there was definitely some suppression kicking in because no test base. Coincidentally, I had a deload scheduled right when all this kicked in and still rode the struggle bus.

I quit the lgd and mk Tuesday and started pct the same day and am already feeling better. Still a little sore and tiring quicker than normal, but a lot better than the last couple of weeks.

I’m hunting in the woods the next three days so will get further test, apart from walking all day chasing birds. I hope to be close to normal again when I get back in the gym Tuesday.

 

[Brienn8989]

Look, dermacrine is called a "base" but it surely isn't. Does it work? Yes, I liked it, before discovering other "goodies", like transdermal trestolone.

Thing is, if you once used trest (OL dermatr3st is the BEST, period), you are inches away from pinning gear.

If you don't wanna go the roid route, I recommend to use a SERM, like Torem or Clomid DURING short cycles -and extend their use into PCT. Its the latest, most modern approach. You will find large discussions about it here on AM. I recommended it to several friends, all completed their cycles with good results and had a successful PCT.

Like:
DMZ: 30mg/d 30/30/30/30/30
Torem: 60/60/60/60/60/60/60/60 last 3 weeks is PCT

Edit:

And stop calling MK-677 a SARM, because it isn't.

I was wondering when somebody was going to mention it not being a sarm

 

[Renew1]

did you get things figured out

He hasn't been active on here in a few months. But maybe he'll see a notification, and respond.

 

[Old Witch]

He hasn't been active on here in a few months. But maybe he'll see a notification, and respond.

Maybe he died from taking toremifene and dmz together because cardiac arrest.

Someone pointed out that torem will lengthen the QT ratio (?) which is basically like adding extra time between the lub and dub of a heartbeat or between beats. It means the heart is taking longer to store its electrical charge and release it. It can cause arrhythmias which can then cause sudden heart failure.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Maybe he died from taking toremifene and dmz together because cardiac arrest.

Someone pointed out that torem will lengthen the QT ratio (?) which is basically like adding extra time between the lub and dub of a heartbeat or between beats. It means the heart is taking longer to store its electrical charge and release it. It can cause arrhythmias which can then cause sudden heart failure.

I don't wanna be an alarmist -but when you stop breathing, oxygen to your penis gets low and he turns purple.

 

[Renew1]

I don't wanna be an alarmist -but when you stop breathing, oxygen to your penis gets low and he turns purple.

Oh crap!

See .... People rarely talk about the down-sides to things