Strongest product that won’t cause shutdown

Wildcat528

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Hello, as it says I’m curious about the strongest possible compound/dose you can run that won’t induce shutdown and require PCT. I have read that low dose 11-oxo at 300mg ED may not require PCT. However, I know that nothing that fits this requirement will even come close to a standard cycle. I figured it’s worth asking instead of tossing money down the drain at “natty anabolics”. I’m not expecting a huge effect either, just something that *may* expedite my recomp phase. Thanks for the help y’all I really appreciate it!
 

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7keto TD could help with recomp and have only minimal effect on hormones. And as you mentioned there's a lot of guys who run/have run 11oxo/11keto with minimal PCT. But it's generally tough to say what won't need a PCT for you. Remember when sarms were first getting big and everyone said they were didn't need a PCT? Lots of people tried it without PCT and some of them were fine . . . but some of them weren't. I think there are more compounds you can get away with an OTC PCT than people usually recommend, vujade had a thread where he came back from a long trest cycle with BLR products, so I would imagine you could get away with andros and a solid OTC PCT but then again, you could just as easily be genetically unlucky and shutdown hard and fast, the only way to know is with bloodwork.
 
Nac

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At the end of the day Im not sure theres going to be much diff between natty anabolics and weak PHs. I dont think theres any getting around this: any decent anabolic will impact the HPTA to some degree.

Inb4 protein
 

Anabaholic

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Oh sorry I forgot to mention that I'm a big fan of phosphotadic acid supplements, just add 1-2 tablespoons of soy lecithin granules to your protein shake and after a week or so you'll get hungrier making it easier to get in calories, plus there's other health benefits. You won't see huge results with it, but it's enough to notice and only costs around 10 bucks a month.
 
mikeymike85

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Just like NAC said, you might as well stay natural...nothing on the lower level of PH's is worth it. Run Hdrol, shutdown wasn't that bad on it- and you will actually see results. If you're scared, then stick to egg whites and BCAA's.
 
Wildcat528

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Dang, I was hoping there may have been something I wasn’t thinking of. Oh well, but thanks for the insight and advice y’all. If anyone else has an opinion on the matter feel free to reply as well
 
mikeymike85

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Dang, I was hoping there may have been something I wasn’t thinking of. Oh well, but thanks for the insight and advice y’all. If anyone else has an opinion on the matter feel free to reply as well
You're only other choice is Anavar... very very mild and can yield amazing lean gains/strength. I know people that run it 4-5 months straight.
 
Whisky

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I’d be looking at the best natty stuff bro, everything I’ve read on any anabolic stuff suggests that even the milder ones will impact (shutdown) some people at lose doses.

Maybe look at vector - I’ve not tried it but lots of AM members seem to be getting good results.....
 

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300mg 11 oxo stacked with MK-677 should do the trick, especially for recomp or cut.
 
TheBigJS

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Anything that has the potential to increase natty test levels or perform the same function as test must have the potential for surpression/shutdown/gyno/MPB/acne etc.

Given that fact you may as well take something that definately works.
 
justhere4comm

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Dang, I was hoping there may have been something I wasn’t thinking of. Oh well, but thanks for the insight and advice y’all. If anyone else has an opinion on the matter feel free to reply as well
Follidrone 2.0 and Vector Stack is what you are looking for.
 

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200mg of laxogenin with 30mg mk677 for 12 weeks (MK ongoing) that would yield nice gains
 

ericos_bob

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Don't want your balls to take a hike...Take a look at HGH.
 
YoungThor

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HGH.

I have a theory that you could run an AAS that’s notorious for sides and suppression, like dbol, at a really low dose for a longer amount of time, while having little issues. Maybe 5-10 mg a day for 10 weeks. Or maybe do the same thing with a weaker compound like tbol or anavar. I think low dose tbol wouldn’t shut you down completely and would yield good results. But this is all theory.
RickyBlobby might be able to chime in on this. I know he mentioned his bro ran some dbol and didn’t pct.
 
RickyBlobby

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HGH.

I have a theory that you could run an AAS that’s notorious for sides and suppression, like dbol, at a really low dose for a longer amount of time, while having little issues. Maybe 5-10 mg a day for 10 weeks. Or maybe do the same thing with a weaker compound like tbol or anavar. I think low dose tbol wouldn’t shut you down completely and would yield good results. But this is all theory.
RickyBlobby might be able to chime in on this. I know he mentioned his bro ran some dbol and didn’t pct.
Yeah my bro did run dbol with no PCT. He is also a hard head who doesn't take advice from anyone.

In theory, and in my experience, running a SERM like clomid or torem alongside a moderate dose of steroids will prevent you from getting shut down. Like anavar 50mg alongside 25mg of clomid or 30mg of torem.
 
Wildcat528

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That’s also an option for sure. I guess I just assumed that you’d take the serm solely after your cycle and not during. Is that common to take both simultaneously throughout the duration of the cycle? Thanks for the help btw y’all. It’s certainly appreciated and a big reason why I love this forum.
 
RickyBlobby

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That’s also an option for sure. I guess I just assumed that you’d take the serm solely after your cycle and not during. Is that common to take both simultaneously throughout the duration of the cycle? Thanks for the help btw y’all. It’s certainly appreciated and a big reason why I love this forum.
It is not common but many have tried it with success including myself.
 
heckler7

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what do you consider shutdown, are you basing this off labs, cause all steroids will affect your lab results
 

pureburl

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Save your money and just lift and diet. Or do a test cycle lol
 
Wildcat528

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Sadly I didn’t get much out of stacking those products at all. Although I did gain a little weight as the vector made me super hungry. But no observed benefits other than maybe a little better recovery which I attributed to the stack and/or just a result of the increase in calories. I try to analyze supplements in the same way that TheSolution does, in a scientific manner. Maintain all variables constant to the best of your ability and only alter/add in the supplement under review. Personally I just didn’t notice any real benefit but I rarely seem to respond to natty products. Overall though they just end up helping your wallet lose weight for minimal gains which could potentially/likely be identical to those you’d get from a proper diet, training program, and effective staple supplements. And by effective I mean where peer reviewed studies were conducted on humans. But as far as natty products go I would say that BLR is one of, if not the very best company/product line. They just didn’t happen to really do anything or make any real difference for me. Bad luck perhaps!
 
jameschoi

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Sadly I didn’t get much out of stacking those products at all. Although I did gain a little weight as the vector made me super hungry. But no observed benefits other than maybe a little better recovery which I attributed to the stack and/or just a result of the increase in calories. I try to analyze supplements in the same way that TheSolution does, in a scientific manner. Maintain all variables constant to the best of your ability and only alter/add in the supplement under review. Personally I just didn’t notice any real benefit but I rarely seem to respond to natty products. Overall though they just end up helping your wallet lose weight for minimal gains which could potentially/likely be identical to those you’d get from a proper diet, training program, and effective staple supplements. And by effective I mean where peer reviewed studies were conducted on humans. But as far as natty products go I would say that BLR is one of, if not the very best company/product line. They just didn’t happen to really do anything or make any real difference for me. Bad luck perhaps!
Did you ever try x-gels?
 

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Sadly I didn’t get much out of stacking those products at all. Although I did gain a little weight as the vector made me super hungry. But no observed benefits other than maybe a little better recovery which I attributed to the stack and/or just a result of the increase in calories. I try to analyze supplements in the same way that TheSolution does, in a scientific manner. Maintain all variables constant to the best of your ability and only alter/add in the supplement under review. Personally I just didn’t notice any real benefit but I rarely seem to respond to natty products. Overall though they just end up helping your wallet lose weight for minimal gains which could potentially/likely be identical to those you’d get from a proper diet, training program, and effective staple supplements. And by effective I mean where peer reviewed studies were conducted on humans. But as far as natty products go I would say that BLR is one of, if not the very best company/product line. They just didn’t happen to really do anything or make any real difference for me. Bad luck perhaps!
In the hundreds of comments on this board and elsewhere, your literally the first non responder to Vector I have heard of. Its the holy grail of natural anabolics as far as I am concerned - much better than Osta and more in line with Andros, but I feel great running it. Too bad it did not work for you.
 

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Sadly I didn’t get much out of stacking those products at all. Although I did gain a little weight as the vector made me super hungry. But no observed benefits other than maybe a little better recovery which I attributed to the stack and/or just a result of the increase in calories. I try to analyze supplements in the same way that TheSolution does, in a scientific manner. Maintain all variables constant to the best of your ability and only alter/add in the supplement under review. Personally I just didn’t notice any real benefit but I rarely seem to respond to natty products. Overall though they just end up helping your wallet lose weight for minimal gains which could potentially/likely be identical to those you’d get from a proper diet, training program, and effective staple supplements. And by effective I mean where peer reviewed studies were conducted on humans. But as far as natty products go I would say that BLR is one of, if not the very best company/product line. They just didn’t happen to really do anything or make any real difference for me. Bad luck perhaps!
Never got anything from natty anabolics either. Perhaps it's because we're skeptics. Most people running a hyped product will finally get their training/diet/rest on point while doing so which no doubt is going to give them improved gains. Not necessarily attributed to the product itself. Really, you shouldn't be changing any variables while testing a new product but it's hard not to given the power of placebo. Once the hype dies down we'll see just how effective it is.
 
Jinsun

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1. Low dose var at 25mg ed
2. Low dose primo 200-400mg /week
3. Dboll only on workout days, especially if you train in the morning
4. 50-100mg proviron ed

Add a low dose serm to all of this and you'll be golden. I would do 25mg var + 30mg torem or 10mg nolva. If laabs look good after a few weeks then upp the dose of var towards 50mg.
 
Jinsun

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And the most potent stack would probably be cjc1295dac 6mg e5d + 15mg MK677. This woul put your igf in the 400 mark. No hpta suppression with this one at all. But it's the most expensive.
 

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Never got anything from natty anabolics either. Perhaps it's because we're skeptics. Most people running a hyped product will finally get their training/diet/rest on point while doing so which no doubt is going to give them improved gains. Not necessarily attributed to the product itself. Really, you shouldn't be changing any variables while testing a new product but it's hard not to given the power of placebo. Once the hype dies down we'll see just how effective it is.
I have been running hyped products for over 35 years bro. Vector is the Sh1t.
 
mikeymike85

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Lmao why does Vector make its way on to 90% of the posts on here, like give it a rest. Reminds me of someone pedaling snake oil
 
Wildcat528

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Never got anything from natty anabolics either. Perhaps it's because we're skeptics. Most people running a hyped product will finally get their training/diet/rest on point while doing so which no doubt is going to give them improved gains. Not necessarily attributed to the product itself. Really, you shouldn't be changing any variables while testing a new product but it's hard not to given the power of placebo. Once the hype dies down we'll see just how effective it is.
This. Absolutely. And then the placebo effect expands when you hear how “awesome” this product was for others. And I know multiple people who didn’t respond to vector, and those are ones that also controlled all other variables. If the product didn’t have such a strong appetite spike to it then I’d believe it did something maybe. But a lot of people who have ran it noted a significant increase in appetite. So don’t tell me that their gains in muscle, strength, recovery, etc. were from the compounds in vector. I need to look up the ingredients again but off the top of my head I can’t recall any ingredient proven in a controlled study IN HUMANS. Don’t talk to me about rat or mouse studies. As a scientist that’s a joke to be honest. At first I gained a little strength and weight, but that was because I craved food and increased calories. Once I got that under control after about a week and returned to my controlled constant diet then I noticed absolutely nothing at all. Few people want to say it on here but in general natty anabolics are simply junk and a waste of money. I used to LOVE the idea of them. What could be better? They’re legal, they dice you up, they make you super strong, they don’t affect hormones, they’re safe, etc. well that’s wishful thinking and in general some of those are mutually exclusive in my opinion. Take a look at the solutions current log of major gains. Anyone who controlled all variables has noticed no significant benefit with that “military grade natty anabolic”
 
YoungThor

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Products that are sold as natty anabolics are a scam. I like taking natural products that have been proven through human studies to boost testosterone levels but even this boost is minor. It won’t make you gain a bunch of muscle but the test increase is noticeable in some ways, like it’ll get your ding dong hard as a rock and make your loads huge. Royal jelly actually makes your balls weigh more haha, and that’s not a joke! It contains trace amounts of testosterone. And yeah, I said ding dong.
 
mikeymike85

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This. Absolutely. And then the placebo effect expands when you hear how “awesome” this product was for others. And I know multiple people who didn’t respond to vector, and those are ones that also controlled all other variables. If the product didn’t have such a strong appetite spike to it then I’d believe it did something maybe. But a lot of people who have ran it noted a significant increase in appetite. So don’t tell me that their gains in muscle, strength, recovery, etc. were from the compounds in vector. I need to look up the ingredients again but off the top of my head I can’t recall any ingredient proven in a controlled study IN HUMANS. Don’t talk to me about rat or mouse studies. As a scientist that’s a joke to be honest. At first I gained a little strength and weight, but that was because I craved food and increased calories. Once I got that under control after about a week and returned to my controlled constant diet then I noticed absolutely nothing at all. Few people want to say it on here but in general natty anabolics are simply junk and a waste of money. I used to LOVE the idea of them. What could be better? They’re legal, they dice you up, they make you super strong, they don’t affect hormones, they’re safe, etc. well that’s wishful thinking and in general some of those are mutually exclusive in my opinion. Take a look at the solutions current log of major gains. Anyone who controlled all variables has noticed no significant benefit with that “military grade natty anabolic”
Gold Jerry gold! Well said. Only natty substances I will spend money on are Armistane and Yohimbe/BCAA's/ CEL MTest for the price. Snake Oil I tell ya, and they are getting rich off people buying hype.
 
bill86

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You're only other choice is Anavar... very very mild and can yield amazing lean gains/strength. I know people that run it 4-5 months straight.
I’ve always heard mixed things about running it without test (it seems like it’s generally a good idea to run test along with it). Any thoughts or suggestions in that regard?
 
mikeymike85

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I’ve always heard mixed things about running it without test (it seems like it’s generally a good idea to run test along with it). Any thoughts or suggestions in that regard?
I run it with a base like Dermacrine or Stano and works like a charm
 

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And the most potent stack would probably be cjc1295dac 6mg e5d + 15mg MK677. This woul put your igf in the 400 mark. No hpta suppression with this one at all. But it's the most expensive.
I'm interested in how anabolic GHRPs and GHRHs really are, the only MOA they have is by raising IGF-1 levels to get hyperplasia going, but like testosterone, there has to be an anabolic threshold no? I mean a 20% increase in testosterone won't build muscle, but a 300% increase will. Sooo do you know much igf-1 is needed? I've seen bloodwork showing MK 677 getting IGF-1 to 350 ish... Is that enough for muscle mass? What about GHRP-6 etc
 

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Exactly man, though I'd give ARA a pass... it has human trials behind it and has given gains in logs... plus it makes sense from a biological sense... Obviously inflammation is a necessary part of growing. Annnnnd any other supplement that is anticatabolic, like Leucine etc. A penny saved is a penny earned
 
Jinsun

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I'm interested in how anabolic GHRPs and GHRHs really are, the only MOA they have is by raising IGF-1 levels to get hyperplasia going, but like testosterone, there has to be an anabolic threshold no? I mean a 20% increase in testosterone won't build muscle, but a 300% increase will. Sooo do you know much igf-1 is needed? I've seen bloodwork showing MK 677 getting IGF-1 to 350 ish... Is that enough for muscle mass? What about GHRP-6 etc
Hyperplasia doesn't happen. Igf is anabolic through other pathways. Don't remember how but it's def not hyperplasia.

Mk677 raised my igf to 230 from 170. Can't imagine 350 lol Maybe we have different lab ranges.
 

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Hyperplasia doesn't happen. Igf is anabolic through other pathways. Don't remember how but it's def not hyperplasia.

Mk677 raised my igf to 230 from 170. Can't imagine 350 lol Maybe we have different lab ranges.
Oh okay, so do you consider ghrps and ghrhs anabolic? I mean, there seems to be some debate over this. Like I said, it's a matter of how much IGF1 is released. adding a GHRH like cjc is going to boost that igf a lot right? So I'd be surprised if someone using MK 677 and Cjc didn't build muscle haha
 

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Hyperplasia doesn't happen. Igf is anabolic through other pathways. Don't remember how but it's def not hyperplasia.

Mk677 raised my igf to 230 from 170. Can't imagine 350 lol Maybe we have different lab ranges.
And yeah, the 350 was from a log on here, MK677 is equal to 4ius of HGH... That log. The guy was using Choline and aminos with MK 677 to lower somastatin, he got his IGF-1 to 350
 
Jinsun

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And yeah, the 350 was from a log on here, MK677 is equal to 4ius of HGH... That log. The guy was using Choline and aminos with MK 677 to lower somastatin, he got his IGF-1 to 350
Well MK boosts igf 40 to 50%. In my case it was 40%. A friend got a 25% boost. So 350 is A LOT. That's like taking Mk with 4mg's of cjc dac a week.

Sure I consider them anabolic. Igf is proven to be anabolic in human studies... It's just the pathway that is not completely known...
 

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Well MK boosts igf 40 to 50%. In my case it was 40%. A friend got a 25% boost. So 350 is A LOT. That's like taking Mk with 4mg's of cjc dac a week.

Sure I consider them anabolic. Igf is proven to be anabolic in human studies... It's just the pathway that is not completely known...
Yeah it is a lot, I guess he was using other supplements to boost MK's effect even higher. Arginine and ornithine with Choline around taking MK had a big effect it seems. What peptide stacks would you recommend for muscle growth? Except MGF and IGF themselves, and cjc dac w/ ghrp
 
Jinsun

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Yeah it is a lot, I guess he was using other supplements to boost MK's effect even higher. Arginine and ornithine with Choline around taking MK had a big effect it seems. What peptide stacks would you recommend for muscle growth? Except MGF and IGF themselves, and cjc dac w/ ghrp
Just Mk and cjc dac :) Nothing more needed... If you are on a cut, remove mk and add a bit more cjc.
 
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I’m gOnna do some research on the gh secertagauges... tried to run some MK months ago but literally couldn’t get 1 min of sleep on it and had to stop it
 

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Just Mk and cjc dac :) Nothing more needed... If you are on a cut, remove mk and add a bit more cjc.
Any cheaper, less effective alternatives? Maybe a lower dose of Cjc with GHRP 2/6? Or hex? I'd like to use ghrp 6 as it's stronger than mk 67 for IGF-1
 

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That's strange mate, MK 677 normally helps sleep. Where did you buy it from?
 

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I had the same issues with MK. Full zombie mode. I hope you didn't start at 25mg or even 10mg. I slowly worked my way up from 5mg. I can now run 25mg ED no problems but after much experimenting with doses I've found 20mg EOD feels best. Great sleep and all the benefits. MK does work but it isn't going to give you steroid like gains. It will allow you to maintain lower bodyfat levels despite all else being equal. That's the biggest benefit.
 
Jinsun

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Any cheaper, less effective alternatives? Maybe a lower dose of Cjc with GHRP 2/6? Or hex? I'd like to use ghrp 6 as it's stronger than mk 67 for IGF-1
Imo mk + cjc dac is kinda the cheapest option. 6mcg x body weight (kg) is optimum for cjc, but you can go lower offcourse.

All other ghrp's when you calculate you see they are not cheaper due to the short half life. And do you really want to pinn 3 times a day?
 
Wildcat528

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Opinions on running low dose anavar along with clomid?
 
RickyBlobby

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That wouldn't be a bad idea. If you don't get sides from clomid. If so torem might be a better compound.
 

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Imo mk + cjc dac is kinda the cheapest option. 6mcg x body weight (kg) is optimum for cjc, but you can go lower offcourse.

All other ghrp's when you calculate you see they are not cheaper due to the short half life. And do you really want to pinn 3 times a day?
Yeah I guess you are right. Say you are 100 kgs and run Cjc at half the optimal dosage, at 3mcg x kg... Just to help costs, along with MK how long do you think you'd need to run it to see significant results? say 5-10 lbs. I'm just trying to get a sense of the price and effect of a cycle.. I see Cjc w/ dac for 30 at mg.... based on that I'm sure its incredibly expensive
 
Wildcat528

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That wouldn't be a bad idea. If you don't get sides from clomid. If so torem might be a better compound.
Agreed, are you thinking maybe 25mg Var/50mg clomid ED for 8 weeks? Or perhaps clomid EOD?
 

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