BEST CYCLE SUPPORT SUPPLEMENT

[Punkrocker]

specifically for heart/cholesterol. We all know how to keep our livers in check. I am currently doing a dymethazine cycle and using talos v2 cycle support because a guy on here told me it's a good product and his cholesterol levels while on cycle seemed pretty decent. Now I've been reading about n2guard and how that's supposedly the best. GUYS, what's the best cycle support supplement that can specifically hold good cholesterol levels?? Anyone have experience using something with blood work?? TELL ME! thanks

 

[Chados]

Cardarine was made to control cholesterol and it's great at it.

 

[Punkrocker]

Cardarine was made to control cholesterol and it's great at it.

I'm looking for the best cycle support supplement. Not a sketchy research chemical that gives lab mice cancer

 

[greg916]

I'm looking for the best cycle support supplement. Not a sketchy research chemical that gives lab mice cancer

Haha I’m with ya man. It’s seems like CEL cycle assist has a pretty good reputation here. I’m sure some others are out there as well.

 

[mad_canada]

Red yeast... I am using ar1macare but don't think I need it as I'm just on rad 140

 

[Chados]

I'm looking for the best cycle support supplement. Not a sketchy research chemical that gives lab mice cancer

Let me see. Mice getting a (natural) disease at (old) age while being dosed with cardarine at ten times the recommended dosage. That would be like you getting cardarine until you're 60-80 and overdosing it. A compound not supposed to be taken by mice but by humans.

Cardarine helps with cholesterol
steroids gives you had cholesterol
Cardarine helps with fatty liver disease
Steroids is toxic to the liver

Cardarine has no studies to prove it's dangerous or that it gives cancer, it arguably helps with it.

Steroids has studies behind it proven to be hurtful to your health.

Bottom line, you're taking something you know can kill you and are afraid of something that could potentially give you natural disease at 80 years old by overdosing it.

 

[mad_canada]

Let me see. Mice getting a (natural) disease at (old) age while being dosed with cardarine at ten times the recommended dosage. That would be like you getting cardarine until you're 60-80 and overdosing it. A compound not supposed to be taken by mice but by humans.

Cardarine helps with cholesterol
steroids gives you had cholesterol
Cardarine helps with fatty liver disease
Steroids is toxic to the liver

Cardarine has no studies to prove it's dangerous or that it gives cancer, it arguably helps with it.

Steroids has studies behind it proven to be hurtful to your health.

Bottom line, you're taking something you know can kill you and are afraid of something that could potentially give you natural disease at 80 years old by overdosing it.

Fwiw, the human equivalent when dosed properly it is around 40mg a day, it isn't 10x the dose.

There is a great thread on reddit that explains this. I'll post the text here.

In animal trials, there are*dose equivalence*calculations you have to do first. Since rats were used in the study you have to divide their dosage by 6.2 for the human equivalence. So the 5 mg/kg/day for males and 3 mg/kg/day for females works out to 0.806 mg/kg/day and 0.484 mg/kg/day, respectively. For example,*a 115 lb female would have an equivalent dosage of ~25 mg.*That's a whole lot closer to the doses some of you are taking.
In the study, cancer was seen even in rats on the lowest dosage. For all we know, they could have gotten cancer at lower doses too.

GW501516, a non-genotoxic PPARδ agonist, was assessed for carcinogenic potential by daily administration (oral gavage) to Han Wistar rats for a period of 104 weeks. Males were given 0, 5, 15 or 30 mg/kg/day for the first 6 weeks of the study. For the remainder of the study males were given 0, 5, 20 or 40 mg/kg/day. Females were given 0, 3, 10 or 20 mg/kg/day for the entire study. GW501516 produced test article-related neoplastic findings in multiple tissues at all doses. Increased mortality was seen with females given GW501516 at all doses and uterine endometrial adenocarcinoma contributed to death in a high proportion of these animals. Neoplasms considered test-article related occurred in the liver (hepatocellular adenoma at ≥ 10 mg/kg/day), urinary bladder (transitional cell carcinoma in males given 20 and 40 mg/kg/day), thyroid (follicular cell adenoma*at ≥*3 mg/kg/day*and carcinoma in males at ≥ 20 mg/kg/day), tongue (squamous cell papilloma*in males at*5 mg/kg/day*and 40 mg/kg/day), stomach (squamous cell papilloma*in males at ≥*5 mg/kg/dayand a female at 20 mg/kg/day, and*carcinoma*in a male at 40 mg/kg/day and a female at*3 mg/kg/day), skin (inverted squamous cell papilloma*in males at ≥*5 mg/kg/day*and females at*3*or 20 mg/kg/day), Harderian glands (adenoma*in males at ≥*5 mg/kg/dayand adenocarcinoma in a male at 40 mg/kg/day), testes (interstitial cell adenoma at 40 mg/kg/day), ovary (Sertoli cell adenoma at ≥ 10 mg/kg/day) and uterus (polyp and endometrial adenocarcinoma*at ≥*3 mg/kg/day). Some of the tumor types observed in this study have not been reported with either PPARα or PPARγ agonists and may reflect tumor promotion mediated through PPARδ agonism. Source: PS 895*https://web.archive.org/web/20150504013406/http://www.toxicology.org/AI/PUB/Tox/2009Tox.pdf

 

[Chados]

Fwiw, the human equivalent when dosed properly it is around 40mg a day, it isn't 10x the dose.

No its not and that's still twice the amount recommended. (Twice) that's like taking aspiring at twice the amount, only different is that you might die.

You don't have to take it but I find it strange when people take steroids and are afraid if the worst study ever made that has been debunked already.

 

[mad_canada]

No its not and that's still twice the amount recommended. (Twice) that's like taking aspiring at twice the amount, only different is that you might die.

You don't have to take it but I find it strange when people take steroids and are afraid if the worst study ever made that has been debunked already.

Right, I clarified and showed the math via an edit.

BTW, I tend to agree with you, but the idea that it was 10x the dose a human would use is incorrect and leads to the conclusion someone needs 200-300mg a day to see a risk.

Risks are there. Assess them. Do or do not.

In animal trials, there are*dose equivalence*calculations you have to do first. Since rats were used in the study you have to divide their dosage by 6.2 for the human equivalence. So the 5 mg/kg/day for males and 3 mg/kg/day for females works out to 0.806 mg/kg/day and 0.484 mg/kg/day, respectively. For example,*a 115 lb female would have an equivalent dosage of ~25 mg.*That's a whole lot closer to the doses some of you are taking.
In the study, cancer was seen even in rats on the lowest dosage. For all we know, they could have gotten cancer at lower doses too.

 

[greg916]

I thought they test those doses on the rats/mice because they can metabolize and process the drug in and out of their system a lot quicker that humans can. Thus, they have to use a higher dose.

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered reading this somewhere.

 

[mad_canada]

I thought they test those doses on the rats/mice because they can metabolize and process the drug in and out of their system a lot quicker that humans can. Thus, they have to use a higher dose.

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered reading this somewhere.

All the studies are flawed. The rats are also genetically engineered in a way I can't recall but in a way we sure as heck are not.

Then as was stated here it showed tumor shrinkage in some cancer types.

 

[Chados]

Some mice at low dosage got cancer. The other study was at a higher dosage and no cancer was discovered.

Cancer
There has been many forum comments expressing the concerns of GW501516 and it’s relationship to cancer and tumor development. The hypothesis for this controversy stems from GW’s ability to improve Angiogenesis in the body at an extremely high rate and the rate of cancer growth in the colons of lab mice.

This is a common occurrence among endurance athletes and children going through adolescence. Scientists had speculation that if there were tumor cells active in the body, that they would be especially susceptible to angiogenesis and cause the tumor to grow at a much faster rate. Since 2004 many experiments have been done to prove this hypothesis, but so far, all of them have been largely unsuccessful.

A study published in 2004 by the American Association of Cancer Research stated that PPAR agonists have.


WRITEUPS
GW 501516 (Cardarine)
Last updated Jan 18, 2018 27
Chemical Name: C21H18F3NO4S2
Other Name(s): Cardarine, GW50156, Endurobol
Half Life: 20-24 hours
What is GW 501516 (Cardarine)?
GW 501516 (or Cardarine), is a research chemical developed in the 1990s to prevent and cure tumor formation in the colon, prostate, and breasts. Studies done in the early 2000s have found that GW 501516 and other PPAR agonists have also been able to stop metabolic disorders such as obesity and diabetes through specific gene expressions.

As research continued to grow, bodybuilders quickly caught on to GW 501516, calling it “the ultimate endurance enhancing supplement.”

Plus, Cardarine’s ability to burn off excess fatty tissue, enhance recovery, and dramatically increase endurance has made this product a staple in every athlete’s cycle and PCT. With no harmful side effects found in the past 20 years, no wonder why GW 501516 has become a legend in the world of sports and athleticism.

Let’s take a closer look…

How It Works

GW 501516 is is a PPARδ agonist and NOT a SARM, but does work in very similar ways. In this case, GW 501516 targets the androgen receptors that stimulate glucose uptake and skeletal muscle tissue. Currently, it is being suggested as a potential treatment for obesity by rapidly melting through through what’s called “fatty acid oxidation“.

Also, Cardarine is said to increase HDL by an average of 79% (good cholesterol) and decrease LDL (bad cholesterol) in current Phase II trials.

These help increase your HDL levels from an enhanced expression of the cholesterol transporter ABCA1.

The Benefits of GW 501516

The benefits of Cardarine seem to be endless, both in medical science and in the gym. Many studies have been done on GW 501516 showing numerous positive effects during trial, despite minimum side effects.

That is part of the reason why Cardarine has recently become so popular.

Below are a list of the most powerful benefits that you could experience while taking a cycle of GW 501516 (compiled from much research and study)

The Ultimate Endurance Supplement
GW 501516 is literally the best it gets when it comes to endurance, energy, stamina, and performance enhancement of any kind.

It is used by elite athletes for a reason, from cyclists to elite bodybuilders. In fact, WADA has even addded GW 501516 to their list of banned substances because of it’s competitive advantage.

You can expect insane levels of intensity in the gym, shorter recovery times, and be able to bust through plateaus like never before.

Also, the energy you get from Cardarine is not experienced as jittery or anxious. It’s not a stimulant, and you won’t crash hours later.

In fact, many users even report feeling an overall sense of well being and calmness.

Some of the other benefits include:

Rapidly melts fat and NON catabolic.
Provides noticeable results on the first dose.
The ability to run for as long as 8-12+ weeks.
Is versatile and can be stacked with anything.
Can be used while cutting OR bulking.
No side effects, liver toxicity, or suppression have been reported.
No need for a PCT
Cardarine: The Cure for Obesity?
THE PRIMARY ROLE is GW’s ability to rid the body of unwanted fatty tissue and it has become almost LEGENDARY. The chemical compounds in this particular PPAR agonist functions in differentiation of adipocytes.

Much like growth hormone, GW 501516 generates proinflammatory markers in adipose tissue and decreasing the activity of genes involved in lipogenesis. This means that the body is able to block fatty acid chains from forming and being stored as fat.

A study from Scientific Reports published in 2015 stated:

“GW501516 acts on PPAR beta cells that exclusively use body fat as energy in the same way the body would when going through “starvation mode”.
The study is quoted stating: “physiological and pathophysiological functions of PPAR and generated novel strategies to treat metabolic diseases”.

The activation of these particular genes in the body have been seen to burn body fat at such an alarming rate that it is being coined “the cure to obesity”.

There were absolutely no adverse side effects detected in the last 20 years of study and it was extremely rare to see muscle wasting at any point during the research.

Cardarine’s Effects on Muscle Fibers
The 2015 study by Wei Chen, PhD and his colleges has also found that dramatic increases in the PPAR gene in slow twitch muscle fibers increases oxygen usage and greatly increases endurance. The enhanced endurance was seen in lab mice with a normal oxygen supply and those with oxygen restrictions which provided significant evidence that GW501516 targets and enhances skeletal muscle endurance and recovery time to a supraphysiological level.

Lab_mouse_mg_3263

A study titled “A metabolomic study of the PPARδ agonist GW501516 for enhancing running endurance in Kunming mice” stated that BCAA were spared during trials of intense exercise which allowed the mice to have a greater rate of recovery in muscle tissue and neurotransmitters.

These rats had even lost weight while maintaining a high fat diet, suggesting it could potentially prevent obesity and help manage weight regardless of diet or lifestyle.

Side Effects

Not to say that there are none, but in the last 20 years no side effects have been seen by anyone studying the drug.

GW501516 has not only been tested in healthy subjects, but also those with simulated “real life” habits (such as drinking alcohol, stimulant narcotics, and the use of tobacco products). It is uncertain if there are long term ramifications, but no research has been published stating otherwise.

This is what makes Cardarine so incredibly popular and usable over long periods of time. In certain studies, there have even been signs showing the reversal of diabetes, obesity, Dyslipidemia and many other diseases.

Liver Damage
In contrast to popular belief, GW501516 doesn’t promote damage of liver cells. The chemical has actually been known to promote healthy liver function and faster healing properties to the skin and muscle tissue. In essence, you will not heal rapidly like Wolverine from the X Men movies, but you will shorten the your recovery time from scratches, blisters, and injured muscles by a significant amount.

Cancer
There has been many forum comments expressing the concerns of GW501516 and it’s relationship to cancer and tumor development. The hypothesis for this controversy stems from GW’s ability to improve Angiogenesis in the body at an extremely high rate and the rate of cancer growth in the colons of lab mice.

This is a common occurrence among endurance athletes and children going through adolescence. Scientists had speculation that if there were tumor cells active in the body, that they would be especially susceptible to angiogenesis and cause the tumor to grow at a much faster rate. Since 2004 many experiments have been done to prove this hypothesis, but so far, all of them have been largely unsuccessful.

A study published in 2004 by the American Association of Cancer Research stated that PPAR agonists have:

…Shown to have no effect on the proliferation of colorectal cancer cells and “…under normal culture conditions, PPAR activation has no effect on cell growth”.
Keep in mind that this study was done in rats given amounts of 400 mg a day and was abused and ran for hundreds of weeks to top it all off. Time and time again this study has been refuted and shown to be deeply flawed and inaccurate.

In a 2008 experiment done on human breast cancer and colon cancer cells, not only did the PPAR agonist GW 501516 prove to be safe for use, it has proven to inhibit cancer cell growth. The National Institute of Health has confirmed without a reasonable doubt that GW 501516 inhibits a multitude of cancers in human cells.

Over a decade of research studies on human PPAR beta (the primary target of GW) has only proven a decrease in cancer cells with extended use (up to two years). The confusion for these previous allegations of cancer growth were from results published in 1996 and have long since been abandoned due to new clinical research. The chemical compound has been dosed in human PPAR for a number of years and has only provided positive results on cancer treatments, liver function, and metabolic efficiency.

In all of the human studies done so far, there were no noticeable side effects at all while running GW.

 

[mad_canada]

There's always a risk. Even squatting heavy causes an increase in GH, and GH in turn can cause growth in a pre-existing tumors.

Therefore, squatting gives you cancer.

You heard it here first.

 

[Chados]

There's always a risk. Even squatting heavy causes an increase in GH, and GH in turn can cause growth in a pre-existing tumors.

Therefore, squatting gives you cancer.

You heard it here first.

All this aside it's good people are cautious but we're taking steroids here. There hasn't been a study proving any damage from cardarine in 20 years. It is extremly effective at lowering cholesterol and that's really why I decide to take it with something like tren. Stamina I can get by myself..

 

[mad_canada]

All this aside it's good people are cautious but we're taking steroids here. There hasn't been a study proving any damage from cardarine in 20 years. It is extremly effective at lowering cholesterol and that's really why I decide to take it with something like tren. Stamina I can get by myself..

There was one guy that ran 60mg for twelve months straight, he actually did get cancer but who was to say if he wasn't genetically predisposed to start with.

 

[Chados]

There was one guy that ran 60mg for twelve months straight, he actually did get cancer but who was to say if he wasn't genetically predisposed to start with.

Yeah and thats just way too much. People do 1gr of test and I just find that insane even though the majority will survive. Maybe we should see it as cigarettes, take 1 package a year and you're not gonna get cancer, take 5 packages each day and your a lucky if you don't get it.

Weed is now getting legalized everywhere and before people thought you could overdose it.

 

[mad_canada]

There was one guy that ran 60mg for twelve months straight, he actually did get cancer but who was to say if he wasn't genetically predisposed to start with.

Sorry no. Ran it 8 months of the year for 2 years.

I had to remove the link, but this guy got*stage 3 colon cancer after running this **** for 2 years, 8 months per yearand he's still running it and recommending it to people. Sure it won't give everyone cancer, but realize that you're taking a risk by taking this.

personally I run cardarine daily but take a months break after 60 days been doing it since 2010.
Being fit wont stop cancer bro but I can give you an edge. Cardarine gives you an endurance edge, so yes you will get fitter "quicker" but you have to put in the work and be able to maintain it. As for being healthy/fit and it stopping cancer not true bro.*I was prime shape and got diagnosed with severe UC and stage 3 colon cancer in 2012,*after 3 chemo sessions said **** it cut the **** out. However if it wasn't for the dedication I put forth into my years of working out prior to that I don't think I would have mentally tackled it as well as I did.

Actually great resource here
https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/6477mr/compound_experience_saturday_gw501516_cardarine/

 

[Punkrocker]

Some mice at low dosage got cancer. The other study was at a higher dosage and no cancer was discovered.

Cancer
There has been many forum comments expressing the concerns of GW501516 and it’s relationship to cancer and tumor development. The hypothesis for this controversy stems from GW’s ability to improve Angiogenesis in the body at an extremely high rate and the rate of cancer growth in the colons of lab mice.

This is a common occurrence among endurance athletes and children going through adolescence. Scientists had speculation that if there were tumor cells active in the body, that they would be especially susceptible to angiogenesis and cause the tumor to grow at a much faster rate. Since 2004 many experiments have been done to prove this hypothesis, but so far, all of them have been largely unsuccessful.

A study published in 2004 by the American Association of Cancer Research stated that PPAR agonists have.


WRITEUPS
GW 501516 (Cardarine)
Last updated Jan 18, 2018 27
Chemical Name: C21H18F3NO4S2
Other Name(s): Cardarine, GW50156, Endurobol
Half Life: 20-24 hours
What is GW 501516 (Cardarine)?
GW 501516 (or Cardarine), is a research chemical developed in the 1990s to prevent and cure tumor formation in the colon, prostate, and breasts. Studies done in the early 2000s have found that GW 501516 and other PPAR agonists have also been able to stop metabolic disorders such as obesity and diabetes through specific gene expressions.

As research continued to grow, bodybuilders quickly caught on to GW 501516, calling it “the ultimate endurance enhancing supplement.”

Plus, Cardarine’s ability to burn off excess fatty tissue, enhance recovery, and dramatically increase endurance has made this product a staple in every athlete’s cycle and PCT. With no harmful side effects found in the past 20 years, no wonder why GW 501516 has become a legend in the world of sports and athleticism.

Let’s take a closer look…

How It Works

GW 501516 is is a PPARδ agonist and NOT a SARM, but does work in very similar ways. In this case, GW 501516 targets the androgen receptors that stimulate glucose uptake and skeletal muscle tissue. Currently, it is being suggested as a potential treatment for obesity by rapidly melting through through what’s called “fatty acid oxidation“.

Also, Cardarine is said to increase HDL by an average of 79% (good cholesterol) and decrease LDL (bad cholesterol) in current Phase II trials.

These help increase your HDL levels from an enhanced expression of the cholesterol transporter ABCA1.

The Benefits of GW 501516

The benefits of Cardarine seem to be endless, both in medical science and in the gym. Many studies have been done on GW 501516 showing numerous positive effects during trial, despite minimum side effects.

That is part of the reason why Cardarine has recently become so popular.

Below are a list of the most powerful benefits that you could experience while taking a cycle of GW 501516 (compiled from much research and study)

The Ultimate Endurance Supplement
GW 501516 is literally the best it gets when it comes to endurance, energy, stamina, and performance enhancement of any kind.

It is used by elite athletes for a reason, from cyclists to elite bodybuilders. In fact, WADA has even addded GW 501516 to their list of banned substances because of it’s competitive advantage.

You can expect insane levels of intensity in the gym, shorter recovery times, and be able to bust through plateaus like never before.

Also, the energy you get from Cardarine is not experienced as jittery or anxious. It’s not a stimulant, and you won’t crash hours later.

In fact, many users even report feeling an overall sense of well being and calmness.

Some of the other benefits include:

Rapidly melts fat and NON catabolic.
Provides noticeable results on the first dose.
The ability to run for as long as 8-12+ weeks.
Is versatile and can be stacked with anything.
Can be used while cutting OR bulking.
No side effects, liver toxicity, or suppression have been reported.
No need for a PCT
Cardarine: The Cure for Obesity?
THE PRIMARY ROLE is GW’s ability to rid the body of unwanted fatty tissue and it has become almost LEGENDARY. The chemical compounds in this particular PPAR agonist functions in differentiation of adipocytes.

Much like growth hormone, GW 501516 generates proinflammatory markers in adipose tissue and decreasing the activity of genes involved in lipogenesis. This means that the body is able to block fatty acid chains from forming and being stored as fat.

A study from Scientific Reports published in 2015 stated:

“GW501516 acts on PPAR beta cells that exclusively use body fat as energy in the same way the body would when going through “starvation mode”.
The study is quoted stating: “physiological and pathophysiological functions of PPAR and generated novel strategies to treat metabolic diseases”.

The activation of these particular genes in the body have been seen to burn body fat at such an alarming rate that it is being coined “the cure to obesity”.

There were absolutely no adverse side effects detected in the last 20 years of study and it was extremely rare to see muscle wasting at any point during the research.

Cardarine’s Effects on Muscle Fibers
The 2015 study by Wei Chen, PhD and his colleges has also found that dramatic increases in the PPAR gene in slow twitch muscle fibers increases oxygen usage and greatly increases endurance. The enhanced endurance was seen in lab mice with a normal oxygen supply and those with oxygen restrictions which provided significant evidence that GW501516 targets and enhances skeletal muscle endurance and recovery time to a supraphysiological level.

Lab_mouse_mg_3263

A study titled “A metabolomic study of the PPARδ agonist GW501516 for enhancing running endurance in Kunming mice” stated that BCAA were spared during trials of intense exercise which allowed the mice to have a greater rate of recovery in muscle tissue and neurotransmitters.

These rats had even lost weight while maintaining a high fat diet, suggesting it could potentially prevent obesity and help manage weight regardless of diet or lifestyle.

Side Effects

Not to say that there are none, but in the last 20 years no side effects have been seen by anyone studying the drug.

GW501516 has not only been tested in healthy subjects, but also those with simulated “real life” habits (such as drinking alcohol, stimulant narcotics, and the use of tobacco products). It is uncertain if there are long term ramifications, but no research has been published stating otherwise.

This is what makes Cardarine so incredibly popular and usable over long periods of time. In certain studies, there have even been signs showing the reversal of diabetes, obesity, Dyslipidemia and many other diseases.

Liver Damage
In contrast to popular belief, GW501516 doesn’t promote damage of liver cells. The chemical has actually been known to promote healthy liver function and faster healing properties to the skin and muscle tissue. In essence, you will not heal rapidly like Wolverine from the X Men movies, but you will shorten the your recovery time from scratches, blisters, and injured muscles by a significant amount.

Cancer
There has been many forum comments expressing the concerns of GW501516 and it’s relationship to cancer and tumor development. The hypothesis for this controversy stems from GW’s ability to improve Angiogenesis in the body at an extremely high rate and the rate of cancer growth in the colons of lab mice.

This is a common occurrence among endurance athletes and children going through adolescence. Scientists had speculation that if there were tumor cells active in the body, that they would be especially susceptible to angiogenesis and cause the tumor to grow at a much faster rate. Since 2004 many experiments have been done to prove this hypothesis, but so far, all of them have been largely unsuccessful.

A study published in 2004 by the American Association of Cancer Research stated that PPAR agonists have:

…Shown to have no effect on the proliferation of colorectal cancer cells and “…under normal culture conditions, PPAR activation has no effect on cell growth”.
Keep in mind that this study was done in rats given amounts of 400 mg a day and was abused and ran for hundreds of weeks to top it all off. Time and time again this study has been refuted and shown to be deeply flawed and inaccurate.

In a 2008 experiment done on human breast cancer and colon cancer cells, not only did the PPAR agonist GW 501516 prove to be safe for use, it has proven to inhibit cancer cell growth. The National Institute of Health has confirmed without a reasonable doubt that GW 501516 inhibits a multitude of cancers in human cells.

Over a decade of research studies on human PPAR beta (the primary target of GW) has only proven a decrease in cancer cells with extended use (up to two years). The confusion for these previous allegations of cancer growth were from results published in 1996 and have long since been abandoned due to new clinical research. The chemical compound has been dosed in human PPAR for a number of years and has only provided positive results on cancer treatments, liver function, and metabolic efficiency.

In all of the human studies done so far, there were no noticeable side effects at all while running GW.

Sounds too good to be true. I don't care how much jibbajabba you send me. I ain't taking the cancer causer

 

[mikeymike85]

I've ran one to two cycles every year for the last 9-10 years and I always take CEL Cycle Assist. Good company, I trust their stuff as do many here and elsewhere

 

[Chados]

Sounds too good to be true. I don't care how much jibbajabba you send me. I ain't taking the cancer causer

I wasn't sending to you but you asked for the best cholesterol supplement. Since you're so sure it causes cancer even when there's no science to back it up you can just slowly step aside and take the steroids that are proven to give heart attacks. Completely up to you.

 

[Punkrocker]

I've ran one to two cycles every year for the last 9-10 years and I always take CEL Cycle Assist. Good company, I trust their stuff as do many here and elsewhere

Excellent. I'm gonna look into it. What is your opinion of talos cycle support?

 

[Punkrocker]

I wasn't sending to you but you asked for the best cholesterol supplement. Since you're so sure it causes cancer even when there's no science to back it up you can just slowly step aside and take the steroids that are proven to give heart attacks. Completely up to you.

So it's totally coincidental that that guy was taking cardarine for 8 months of the year for 2 years and got colon cancer? Total coincidence?

 

[mikeymike85]

Excellent. I'm gonna look into it. What is your opinion of talos cycle support?

Never taken it. I trust CEL more than anyone.

 

[mikeymike85]

Btw your cholesterol would come down off cycle anyhow. 5 weeks on dmz isnt going to kill your levels permanently.

 

[Chados]

So it's totally coincidental that that guy was taking cardarine for 8 months of the year for 2 years and got colon cancer? Total coincidence?

No you're right.. one man gets cancer and cardarine is the problem. You believe a study that has been debunked but not the 20 years of studies that proves the opposite?.

It's like saying a new study saying tren doesn't cause cardiovascular problems but 20 years of usage has proven that it does, or one guy smoking 10 packages of cigarettes a day for 90 years without getting cancer saying cigarettes doesn't cause cancer. Come on..

 

[mad_canada]

I wasn't sending to you but you asked for the best cholesterol supplement. Since you're so sure it causes cancer even when there's no science to back it up you can just slowly step aside and take the steroids that are proven to give heart attacks. Completely up to you.

Not just that, but super weak valves.
Schwarzenegger just had an emergency surgery for that.

Was it his second or third?

 

[mad_canada]

So it's totally coincidental that that guy was taking cardarine for 8 months of the year for 2 years and got colon cancer? Total coincidence?

He took 60mg every fuxking day for eight months each year for two years.

Do you see the absurtidy in that?

Do what you want to do. There's as much risk in standing in a tanning bed as there is any thing else and millions do this very thing daily.

 

[mikeymike85]

No you're right.. one man gets cancer and cardarine is the problem. You believe a study that has been debunked but not the 20 years of studies that proves the opposite?.

It's like saying a new study saying tren doesn't cause cardiovascular problems but 20 years of usage has proven that it does, or one guy smoking 10 packages of cigarettes a day for 90 years without getting cancer saying cigarettes doesn't cause cancer. Come on..

I think hes more so worried that it's from a RC than a company like Brawn, IML.. etc. Not to say their any better than some ug lab

 

[Punkrocker]

No you're right.. one man gets cancer and cardarine is the problem. You believe a study that has been debunked but not the 20 years of studies that proves the opposite?.

It's like saying a new study saying tren doesn't cause cardiovascular problems but 20 years of usage has proven that it does, or one guy smoking 10 packages of cigarettes a day for 90 years without getting cancer saying cigarettes doesn't cause cancer. Come on..

What are you a cardarine salesman or something? Pfft

 

[Chados]

Not just that, but super weak valves.
Schwarzenegger just had an emergency surgery for that.

Was it his second or third?

Not sure i saw something about it though . Didn't know it was recent

 

[Chados]

What are you a cardarine salesman or something? Pfft

Are you the scientist that knows something we don't? I said before you don't have to take it, you just keep giving bad examples of why you don't wanna take it. If you don't want to take it then don't but stop talking about it so I don't have to reply.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Are you the scientist that knows something we don't? I said before you don't have to take it, you just keep giving bad examples of why you don't wanna take it. If you don't want to take it then don't but stop talking about it so I don't have to reply.

YOU just contradicted yourself. Are YOU the scientist who knows more than the ACTUAL SCIENTISTS who DEVELOPED THE DRUG? THEY, the people with a VESTED INTEREST in the drug decided to COMPLETELY ABANDON development due to the risks, but YOU know better than them, right? What do you know that they don't? They decided that the risks outweighed the benefits. By saying otherwise, YOU are presuming to know more than they do.

Let me see. Mice getting a (natural) disease at (old) age while being dosed with cardarine at ten times the recommended dosage. That would be like you getting cardarine until you're 60-80 and overdosing it. A compound not supposed to be taken by mice but by humans.

Cardarine helps with cholesterol
steroids gives you had cholesterol
Cardarine helps with fatty liver disease
Steroids is toxic to the liver

Cardarine has no studies to prove it's dangerous or that it gives cancer, it arguably helps with it.

Steroids has studies behind it proven to be hurtful to your health.

Bottom line, you're taking something you know can kill you and are afraid of something that could potentially give you natural disease at 80 years old by overdosing it.

Cardarine was not dosed 10x the recommended dose; it was 2-3x the 25mg dose that plenty of people used. Furthermore, it was more than one study that noted increased rates/development of cancer. Furthermore, you're applying absolutely no factor of safety; we don't know if lower doses are safe, we just know that long-term use of those doses probably aren't. We have no idea of regular use of lower doses is safe, as we haven't established a safe dose. Period.

No its not and that's still twice the amount recommended. (Twice) that's like taking aspiring at twice the amount, only different is that you might die.

You don't have to take it but I find it strange when people take steroids and are afraid if the worst study ever made that has been debunked already.

So twice the dose was found not to be safe. We still don't know if the normal dose is safe; all we know is that the higher dose likely isn't. They didn't test lower doses, so you can't say that lower doses are safe. Nothing was "debunked."

All this aside it's good people are cautious but we're taking steroids here. There hasn't been a study proving any damage from cardarine in 20 years. It is extremly effective at lowering cholesterol and that's really why I decide to take it with something like tren. Stamina I can get by myself..

That's because both pharmaceutical companies involved in its development COMPLETELY ABANDONED it. There was no need to do further testing because they deemed the data they had sufficient to say that the risks outweighed the rewards. They would never continue to "see if it causes cancer in humans" if they already know it may in rodents.

 

[Chados]

YOU just contradicted yourself. Are YOU the scientist who knows more than the ACTUAL SCIENTISTS who DEVELOPED THE DRUG? THEY, the people with a VESTED INTEREST in the drug decided to COMPLETELY ABANDON development due to the risks, but YOU know better than them, right? What do you know that they don't? They decided that the risks outweighed the benefits. By saying otherwise, YOU are presuming to know more than they do.

Cardarine was not dosed 10x the recommended dose; it was 2-3x the 25mg dose that plenty of people used. Furthermore, it was more than one study that noted increased rates/development of cancer. Furthermore, you're applying absolutely no factor of safety; we don't know if lower doses are safe, we just know that long-term use of those doses probably aren't. We have no idea of regular use of lower doses is safe, as we haven't established a safe dose. Period.

So twice the dose was found not to be safe. We still don't know if the normal dose is safe; all we know is that the higher dose likely isn't. They didn't test lower doses, so you can't say that lower doses are safe. Nothing was "debunked."

That's because both pharmaceutical companies involved in its development COMPLETELY ABANDONED it. There was no need to do further testing because they deemed the data they had sufficient to say that the risks outweighed the rewards. They would never continue to "see if it causes cancer in humans" if they already know it may in rodents.

First of all I said ten times as much because it was clearly dosed too high and I didn't have the energy to Google it at first, I knew that wasn't right but I also knew it was far above the recommendations. I don't think the amount matters it was way still enough to make the study fall flat.

Cardarine has been around forever and yes it had been debunked. It's still sold legally and there is still not one scientific study proven that it gives cancer. You say there are more studies. I just told you about one with higher dosage which didn't cause cancer. Now show me another that does..

I answer to a guy saying that a study with mice getting a much higher amount than what's said to be safe for 2-3 years when their lifespan is 2-3 years. Nobody has ever used cardarine for 2/3 of a human lifespan and definitely not their whole life cause it's only been around for what? 20 years.

You're saying that twice the amount is not safe? Are you the scientist now? You got this from the study with mice getting an overdose during their whole lifespan getting a natural disease they can get just by aging?

There has not been a single study proven cardarine to be unsafe with recommended dosage for a human being and I dare you to prove me different. There has also not been one study to prove it's dangerous at a high dosage.

You can argue about this forever and yes maybe it can cause cancer in some way but as long as science telling us otherwise that's all we got.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

First of all I said ten times as much because it was clearly dosed too high and I didn't have the energy to Google it at first, I knew that wasn't right but I also knew it was far above the recommendations. I don't think the amount matters it was way still enough to make the study fall flat.
So you were wrong and your justification for making incorrect claims is that you were too lazy? If you don't have time to get the facts right, don't bother posting and getting them wrong. Do you not know what a factor of safety is and how it's supposed to be applied based on animal safety studies? If you think that using 2-3x the human dose means it "falls flat" you clearly know absolutely nothing about scientific studies, so I don't even know why I'm bothering continuing this "debate."

Cardarine has been around forever and yes it had been debunked. It's still sold legally and there is still not one scientific study proven that it gives cancer. You say there are more studies. I just told you about one with higher dosage which didn't cause cancer. Now show me another that does..
No it's not. It's sold on the gray market, without permission from the companies who developed it and COMPLETELY ABANDONED the drug.

I answer to a guy saying that a study with mice getting a much higher amount than what's said to be safe for 2-3 years when their lifespan is 2-3 years. Nobody has ever used cardarine for 2/3 of a human lifespan and definitely not their whole life cause it's only been around for what? 20 years.

You're saying that twice the amount is not safe? Are you the scientist now? You got this from the study with mice getting an overdose during their whole lifespan getting a natural disease they can get just by aging?
Actually, if you knew anything about rodent safety studies, you'd know that human trials are recommended to start with a factor of safety of 10x the safe rodent dose. Given that the equivalent of 50-75mg was found NOT to be safe, that means our highest safe starting dose would have to be LESS than 5-7.5mg. Nice try though.

There has not been a single study proven cardarine to be unsafe with recommended dosage for a human being and I dare you to prove me different. There has also not been one study to prove it's dangerous at a high dosage.

You can argue about this forever and yes maybe it can cause cancer in some way but as long as science telling us otherwise that's all we got.

Response bolded in above quote. Also, read the following summaries of research, and note that there is more than one study that noted increases in cancer/tumors/etc:
https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

There are actually SEVERAL studies.

The companies who developed the drug entirely abandoned it after spending millions of dollars on it. If they thought it was safe at the recommended dose, they wouldn't have completely abandoned it. If they believed that the adverse effects would only occur at higher doses, not at normal human doses, they wouldn't have abandoned development.

I'm not saying I know more than the scientists; I'm saying that they know more than BOTH OF US, and that they clearly ABANDONED IT FOR A REASON. You're the one presuming to know more than them; I'm merely saying that they abandoned it for a reason, as supported by MULTIPLE rodent safety studies.

 

[Chados]

I mean i can just copy what you linked me.

There are no known side effects associated with cardarine use to date. Unlike most fat loss drugs in use, cardarine does not stimulate the nervous system .There were no side-effects reported in the human studies performed, which may be due to short study durations. It may also be due to the small doses used in humans. The side-effects of cardarine from animal studies including its carcinogenicity potential were based on large doses of the drug.

Also..

The known side effects of Cardarine primarily surround increasing the chances of cancer; however, it’s not quite that cut and dry. Studies that showed increased cancer rates in rats used doses of the PPAR-RA far above and beyond what any human would take. Further, additional studies have shown GW-501516 decreased existing cancerous tumors and in effect cured the existing cancer.


Steroid.com claims cardarines dosage on animals is eqviuilent to 500-1000 times the the dosage in humans, wether that holds any truth I dont know.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I mean i can just copy what you linked me.

There are no known side effects associated with cardarine use to date. Unlike most fat loss drugs in use, cardarine does not stimulate the nervous system .There were no side-effects reported in the human studies performed, which may be due to short study durations. It may also be due to the small doses used in humans. The side-effects of cardarine from animal studies including its carcinogenicity potential were based on large doses of the drug.

Also..

The known side effects of Cardarine primarily surround increasing the chances of cancer; however, it’s not quite that cut and dry. Studies that showed increased cancer rates in rats used doses of the PPAR-RA far above and beyond what any human would take. Further, additional studies have shown GW-501516 decreased existing cancerous tumors and in effect cured the existing cancer.


Steroid.com claims cardarines dosage on animals is eqviuilent to 500-1000 times the the dosage in humans, wether that holds any truth I dont know.

Human studies only used 2.5-10mg per day. People are using 20-25mg, which is 2-2.5x the highest dose tested. Furthermore, these studies were very short term, and therefore essentially meaningless in terms of cancer development; if a drug is going to give people cancer within 12 weeks (the duration of the longest human study) it'd be insanely dangerous; that's crazy talk.

Steroid.com is also wrong; plenty of self-proclaimed "gurus" and "experts" who claim that the dose was equivalent to 500-1000 times the human dose are nothing more than morons who don't know what HED is and have no business pretending to know how to interpret a study.

Basically, all the human studies can tell us is that you can likely use up to 10mg/day for up to 12 weeks ONCE. We really don't know anything about dosing higher than 10mg in humans, and we don't know what happens if you run it longer than 12 weeks, or even if you run it periodically in cycles of less than 12 weeks multiple times over the course of years/decades. The animal research lead the developers to conclude that the risks were too high, so they abandoned further development. You make you own decision, but claiming that it IS safe in humans at 20-25mg/day is asinine.

 

[Chados]

I can go on..from your link

In the first experiment, Sprague-Dawley pregnant rats were administered 0, 30 or 100 mg/kg daily dose of GW501516 by gavage from gestational day (GD) 6-17. The current results indicated that maternal oral administration of GW501516 at a dose of 100 mg/kg/day during GD 6 to 17 caused the suppression of maternal body weight and food consumption, and increased foetal death ratio.

In the second experiment, GW501516 was administered as a single dose of 0, 275 or 350 mg/kg to pregnant rats at gestational days 7, 8,9,10, or 11. One female rat died on GD 9 that was exposed to 350 mg/kg GW501516. Rate of post-implantation loss was significantly higher in the 275 and 350 mg/kg GW501516 groups on GD 9, and 350 mg/kg GW501516 group on GD 10. Single oral administration of GW501516 at a dose of 275 and/or 350 mg/kg on GD 8, 9, 10, or 11 induced placental malformation.

Carcinogenicity
In two abstracts published in The Toxicologist, it was shown that when rats and mice were given the drug for two years, there was a significantly increased risk of developing a range of cancers. These carcinogenicity studies were performed as part of the drug approval process

 

[Chados]

I don't know if it's safe but again were taking steroids proven to be dangerous.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I don't know if it's safe but again were taking steroids proven to be dangerous.

So your answer to taking something that we know isn't entirely safe is to take something that may not be safe? So you're just basically rolling the dice and saying, "well, I'm already taking something that can be dangerous, so let's take something that may also dangerous, but it may not be." Now, if it is dangerous, you just doubled up on dangerous compounds you're taking.

If you want to say we don't know if it's safe or not, that's fine, but its incorrect to say that it IS safe, or even if it's most likely safe at the doses people are using it at (20-25mg).

 

[Chados]

So your answer to taking something that we know isn't entirely safe is to take something that may not be safe? So you're just basically rolling the dice and saying, "well, I'm already taking something that can be dangerous, so let's take something that may also dangerous, but it may not be." Now, if it is dangerous, you just doubled up on dangerous compounds you're taking.

If you want to say we don't know if it's safe or not, that's fine, but its incorrect to say that it IS safe, or even if it's most likely safe at the doses people are using it at (20-25mg).

No I'm saying do as you please. Trust science or don't. Take things at recommended dosage no matter what.

You've been trying to prove me wrong and I replied. People do what they want but dont give me these 300mg/kg studies as proof.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No I'm saying do as you please. Trust science or don't. Take things at recommended dosage no matter what.

You've been trying to prove me wrong and I replied. People do what they want but dont give me these 300mg/kg studies as proof.

The highest "recommended dosage" is 10mg/day, and even that isn't "recommended" anymore, as the developers abandoned the drug.

Are you also just going to ignore the doses that were found not safe in various areas of 3mg/kg, 5mg/kg, 10mg/kg, 20mg/kg, 30mg/kg, etc.? You're just going to jump straight to the 300mg/kg dose and ignore everything lower? Read the whole paper/review, don't just cherry pick the high doses.

3mg/kg in rats = 33.6mg for a 70kg human
5mg/kg in rats = 56mg for a 70kg human
etc.

33.6mg is pretty damn close to 25mg, and even that isn't proven to be a safe dose. All we know is that very short term use of 10mg/day is likely safe. 20-25mg is an unknown, and perhaps not safe, particularly for long term research.

Why am I even bothering going back and forth with you if you don't even know how to read what I'm posting? You picked up on the 300mg/kg doses, but missed 3,5,10,20,30,40, etc. 3mg/kg. You were only off by a factor of 100...

 

[Chados]

I don't know why I'm responding to someone going against science. I'm not saying I'm right but few years ago potato chips gave cancer.


Study 1. Year 2007

The authors concluded that ligand activation of PPARδ inhibits the growth of both MCF7 and UACC903 cell lines and provide further evidence that PPARδ ligands are not mitogenic in human cancer cell lines. This study is basically saying it reversed cancer and that it's not mitogenic (tissuegrowth) in humans.


Study 2. 2007

no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX-2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARδ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers

 

[hairygrandpa]

Just to throw that in:

One side I noted from cardarine (at 20mg/d) was hypoglycemia when on a low carb diet.
Almost fainted doing cardio.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I don't know why I'm responding to someone going against science. I'm not saying I'm right but few years ago potato chips gave cancer.


Study 1. Year 2007

The authors concluded that ligand activation of PPARδ inhibits the growth of both MCF7 and UACC903 cell lines and provide further evidence that PPARδ ligands are not mitogenic in human cancer cell lines. This study is basically saying it reversed cancer and that it's not mitogenic in humans.


Study 2. 2007

no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX-2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARδ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers

I'm against science? You're the one who "missed" the doses lower than 300mg/kg, and as low as 3mg/kg. You're also the one who clearly doesn't know what a factor of safety is or how to apply it to determine human safety when there is a lack of actual human safety data. Either you're intentionally being disingenuous, or you just didn't read the entire paper (and therefore missed doses lower than 300mg/kg) and don't know what a factor of safety is and how to apply it (as evidenced by you saying that it's ok to use 25mg/day because rodent studies used the equivalent of 50mg/day).

I think we both presented enough information to let people make their own decision, so I think I'm done going around in circles here.

 

[Chados]

Sure we can stop. From what I'm reading the dosage equivalent to human during the cancer study was much higher than you're saying. Wether thats true or not I don't know.

The rats were apparently given cancer and rats develop cancer much easier than us.

Basically the study saying cardarine (gives) cancer is false and wether the dosage was high or low the New studies shows the opposite. That It actually helps against cancer tumours.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No. Just no. I'm done trying to explain this. "From what you're reading." I literally did the HED conversion for you. 3mg/kg x 0.16 (conversion factor for rats) = 0.48mg/kg for humans. Multiply that by 70 for a 70kg human and you get 33.6mg. Do the same for 5mg/kg and you get 56mg for the same 70kg person. You can do this for any dose. You just chose to ignore any dose lower than 300mg/kg for whatever reason. Did you not read the entire review? If you didn't, I have to ask why you're giving your opinion on it before actually reading it. If you did read it, I have to ask how you missed the plethora of mentions of doses less than 300mg/kg. Or do you just not understand HED conversions?

 

[Chados]

No. Just no. I'm done trying to explain this. "From what you're reading." I literally did the HED conversion for you. 3mg/kg x 0.16 (conversion factor for rats) = 0.48mg/kg for humans. Multiply that by 70 for a 70kg human and you get 33.6mg. Do the same for 5mg/kg and you get 56mg for the same 70kg person. You can do this for any dose. You just chose to ignore any dose lower than 300mg/kg for whatever reason. Did you not read the entire review? If you didn't, I have to ask why you're giving your opinion on it before actually reading it. If you did read it, I have to ask how you missed the plethora of mentions of doses less than 300mg/kg. Or do you just not understand HED conversions?

Ive read the study a long time ago. Everywhere on the internet it says different things. We are still looking at a study very long ago and compared to New studies cause science goes forward, it does the opposite.

The other thing that I don't remember reading is that the rats were actually given cancer. In that case with rats developing faster than us 3mg/kg might not be sufficent to treat tumours. Is any of this true?

I still don't see any proof but I'll leave it at that. I copied from (your link) proving the opposite. If you know anything about my last statements by all means tell me.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ive read the study a long time ago. Everywhere on the internet it says different things. We are still looking at a study very long ago and compared to New studies cause science goes forward, it does the opposite.

The other thing that I don't remember reading is that the rats were actually given cancer. In that case with rats developing faster than us 3mg/kg might not be sufficent to treat tumours. Is any of this true?

I still don't see any proof but I'll leave it at that. I copied from (your link) proving the opposite. If you know anything about my last statements by all means tell me.

It doesn't matter what "the internet" says. I literally just did the HED conversion for you.
Verify it yourself:
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidances/ucm078932.pdf

Furthermore, you posted two studies that you said are newer, yet those studies were from 2007, while the one using 3,5,10,20,etc mg/kg was from 2009, and another study that used 10mg/kg was also from 2009. If you do the math, you'll see that 2009 is later than 2007.

The link I posted, if you read the whole thing, which you clearly did not, as you missed the doses lower than 300mg/kg, and missed that the entire point of the article is that we don't know if it's safe or not. You cherry picked the studies that found it to be safe, while entirely ignoring the ones that did not. The entire point of the review is that we don't know, as there is conflicting information. The developers of the drug both abandoned development, so they both clearly viewed the potential risk as too high. Do you know better than they do?

The BEST/MOST you can say is that cardarine may or may not be safe. To claim that it IS safe is flat out wrong. We don't know, and if you got anything besides that from the review posted, you read it wrong.

 

[Chados]

It doesn't matter what "the internet" says. I literally just did the HED conversion for you.
Verify it yourself:
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidances/ucm078932.pdf

Furthermore, you posted two studies that you said are newer, yet those studies were from 2007, while the one using 3,5,10,20,etc mg/kg was from 2009, and another study that used 10mg/kg was also from 2009. If you do the math, you'll see that 2009 is later than 2007.

The link I posted, if you read the whole thing, which you clearly did not, as you missed the doses lower than 300mg/kg, and missed that the entire point of the article is that we don't know if it's safe or not. You cherry picked the studies that found it to be safe, while entirely ignoring the ones that did not. The entire point of the review is that we don't know, as there is conflicting information. The developers of the drug both abandoned development, so they both clearly viewed the potential risk as too high. Do you know better than they do?

The BEST/MOST you can say is that cardarine may or may not be safe. To claim that it IS safe is flat out wrong. We don't know, and if you got anything besides that from the review posted, you read it wrong.

Have I claimed it's safe? Every study has been mice on either high doses or mice given cancer by scientists. Every other study shows the opposite. The equation has nothing to do with this. I'm asking you wether the dosage youre saying was true at 3mg or not. I have yet to see any proof that it's dangerous just the opposite. That being said. again no I'm not saying it's safe but I chose to believe it doesn't cause cancer. The study is ridiculous in so many ways.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Have I claimed it's safe? Every study has been mice on either high doses or mice given cancer by scientists. Every other study shows the opposite. The equation has nothing to do with this. I'm asking you wether the dosage youre saying was true at 3mg or not. I have yet to see any proof that it's dangerous just the opposite. That being said. again no I'm not saying it's safe but I chose to believe it doesn't cause cancer. The study is ridiculous in so many ways.

I’m done here. People can make their own decisions based on what we’ve both said and read the research themselves. You keep changing the goalposts each time I prove your claims wrong, so I’m done. Both developers abandoned development for a reason; not because it’s safe, that doesn’t even make sense.