NO TEST information summery

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  1. NO Test All The Info You Need


    I Think This subject needs to be divided into 2 sections....1 the subject of pinning steroids without a test base or with a test replacement and 2 running oral and TD only designer steroids and PH. I did my best to rank them in order. I also tried to only include steroids that can be obtained some are still not on the Joe shmoe UGL shopping list but a good lab or connect has these or will make a special order.

    1 You can run zero test on certain compound cycles and you can run test replacements on other compounds. Many compounds can be ran without test as long as you are fine without labido, can boost your lethargy, and can keep a positive mood. I personally have no problem going without labido for a few months while focused on training...My girlfriend on the other hand would not allow that for even 1 week. Then their are compounds that need test in order to fully achieve maximum results and this is the majority of steroids. You can run Deca without test but if you run even just a small amount of test your results will be much better you have to imagine Deca 700mg alone=7....Test 300mg alone=3
    But Deca 700mg/Test 300mg = 14 instead of 10 because they compound each other's effects.

    Test replacements depending on the other compounds:
    Primo----Primo and Mast is a great combo for thick lean gains
    2-Delta---Desoxytestosterone is probably the single best test replacement as for it's gains but also it can be added to nearly anything. It is essentially a far stronger version of Primo but with some side effects where as Primo is very mild with almost 0 sides
    DHB------Dihydroboldenone and Deca is equal or better than Test
    EQ--------EQ as a test base with Tren actually combines with Tren better than Test
    Trest-----Low-mid dose Trest can be exilent with DHT derivatives like Mast, Mestanalone, Winstrol Depot, Others with heavy AI use
    Dbol-----Was used as a Test base from 70's-90's has a very high estro conversion so AI and a estro inhibiting steroid would be best combo
    Proviron--Probably the weakest of the Test replacements but also very low side effects

    Obviously you can run any of the test replacements on their own but here are some compounds that will have some draw backs but for the most part can run alone without Test:
    Trest/ MENT- can be ran alone with good results as long as you have Letro, Aromasin, Nolvadex for bloat and gyno, and Reloxifen for gyno
    Deca/ NPP-Was ran alone in high MGs in old days. It will work without Test but your labido will be gone, however lethargy and depression are lessthan other compounds without Test. Caber or Prami is a must along with low dose Aromasin
    Dienolone-Has also been ran alone it's a 19-nor so caber/prami however your results are greatly increased with a test base.
    Masterone-As long as you have low body fat you will get decent dense gains and cut up also better results with test
    Dianabol-you will need similar support supps as MENT but you will not have near the results of MENT
    Superdrol-Most powerful DHT derivative orals can give really good results alone but still a small test base will help with lethargy these include all
    the greats like Anadrol to Halo to Msten no need to list them all

    Using SERMS as a test base
    This is an ineffective way to just confuse your HTPA, and possibly cause a very hard recovery. Think about this scenario.[Its very simplified for a reason] Your ERβ receives the signal telling Pgland release LH while your testicles are near dormant. Then it immediately receives the opposite signal to halt LH production and this happens over and over. Also you have more androgens telling your brain to halt LH rather than to produce it. How are your dormant testicles going to respond to small very short pulses of LH when it takes 4 weeks of large amounts of SERM to get your testicles to wake up and. This may [I don't know] really mess up your PCT because you have been introducing a SERM that has just been confusing and short circuiting your HTPA?

    2. Oral and TD only Designer Steroids and PH Testosterone replacements and compounds that can be run without test
    MENT- probably the best Test replacement since it not only enhances any additional compounds as a test replacement MENT alone gives great gains unfortunatly lower doses are needed to be able to control estro even with Letro, Asin, Nolva, and Relox
    TD Trest- Almost identical to MENT but I've heard that the estro sides are easier to control. Maybe TD gives a more gradual release of Trest.

    The fallowing are really only effective for adding just a bit of Test replacement if your target compound benefits from just a low Test base
    4-Andro- This is a very weak PH as far as conversion but you can get away with reg dose if other compound needs little Test like DMZ
    Epiandro- This would be less effective version of 4-Andro essentually a very weak weak version of Proviron
    Dermacrine-This is a weak test alternative almost like adding 15mg Test/week while completley shutdown when TRT is 150-200mg/week
    Stano- As far as I know this is almost useless but I may be wrong

    These are the DS anf PH that you can get 80%-100% results without Test or Test replacement, they are listed in a decent order of ranking
    Pheraplex/DMT-Probably the lowest side effect best single oral to run without test Desoxymethyltestosterone is just king
    Superdrol- All of your very strong DHT derivitives will still be very effective without test. Think like running Masterone by it's self
    Halodrol - From all accounts really gives the same effect without any Test
    Msten- Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results
    DMZ -Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results. Also seems to have worse sides without Test base
    Epistane- You will get cut and add just a tiny bit of muscle without Test, mostly a hardener
    Trenavol- Will work a little without a Test base as it's a PH to Tren, but alone it has either a weaker conversion or just weaker effect. Spawn
    [Trenavol & Epistane] was extremely effective because Tren needed that DHT derivative to act as a test base or a boldenone base to really shine
    All the DHEAs alone are worthless


  2. Really guys??? I spent a lot of time to make this cuz it was obviously a topic many ppl wanted to know about
    •   
       


  3. I'm in.
    Pro God, Pro Gun, Pro Life.

  4. Interesting!
    "It's the human condition to always lust, to always lust for more
    Searching in the dark, it's time to tame your wandering heart."
    •   
       


  5. Quote Originally Posted by FRITZBLITZZ View Post
    I Think This subject needs to be divided into 2 sections....1 the subject of pinning steroids without a test base or with a test replacement and 2 running oral and TD only designer steroids and PH. I did my best to rank them in order. I also tried to only include steroids that can be obtained some are still not on the Joe shmoe UGL shopping list but a good lab or connect has these or will make a special order.

    1 You can run zero test on certain compound cycles and you can run test replacements on other compounds. Many compounds can be ran without test as long as you are fine without labido, can boost your lethargy, and can keep a positive mood. I personally have no problem going without labido for a few months while focused on training...My girlfriend on the other hand would not allow that for even 1 week. Then their are compounds that need test in order to fully achieve maximum results and this is the majority of steroids. You can run Deca without test but if you run even just a small amount of test your results will be much better you have to imagine Deca 700mg alone=7....Test 300mg alone=3
    But Deca 700mg/Test 300mg = 14 instead of 10 because they compound each other's effects.

    Test replacements depending on the other compounds:
    Primo----Primo and Mast is a great combo for thick lean gains
    2-Delta---Desoxytestosterone is probably the single best test replacement as for it's gains but also it can be added to nearly anything. It is essentially a far stronger version of Primo but with some side effects where as Primo is very mild with almost 0 sides
    DHB------Dihydroboldenone and Deca is equal or better than Test
    EQ--------EQ as a test base with Tren actually combines with Tren better than Test
    Trest-----Low-mid dose Trest can be exilent with DHT derivatives like Mast, Mestanalone, Winstrol Depot, Others with heavy AI use
    Dbol-----Was used as a Test base from 70's-90's has a very high estro conversion so AI and a estro inhibiting steroid would be best combo
    Proviron--Probably the weakest of the Test replacements but also very low side effects except for the methylation.

    Obviously you can run any of the test replacements on their own but here are some compounds that will have some draw backs but for the most part can run alone without Test:
    Trest/ MENT- can be ran alone with good results as long as you have Letro, Aromasin, Nolvadex for bloat and gyno, and Reloxifen for gyno
    Deca/ NPP-Was ran alone in high MGs in old days. It will work without Test but your labido will be gone, however lethargy and depression are lessthan other compounds without Test. Caber or Prami is a must along with low dose Aromasin
    Dienolone-Has also been ran alone it's a 19-nor so caber/prami however your results are greatly increased with a test base.
    Masterone-As long as you have low body fat you will get decent dense gains and cut up also better results with test
    Dianabol-you will need similar support supps as MENT but you will not have near the results of MENT
    Superdrol-Most powerful DHT derivative orals can give really good results alone but still a small test base will help with lethargy these include all
    the greats like Anadrol to Halo to Msten no need to list them all

    Using SERMS as a test base
    This is an ineffective way to just confuse your HTPA, and possibly cause a very hard recovery. Think about this scenario.[Its very simplified for a reason] Your ERβ receives the signal telling Pgland release LH while your testicles are near dormant. Then it immediately receives the opposite signal to halt LH production and this happens over and over. Also you have more androgens telling your brain to halt LH rather than to produce it. How are your dormant testicles going to respond to small very short pulses of LH when it takes 4 weeks of large amounts of SERM to get your testicles to wake up and. This may [I don't know] really mess up your PCT because you have been introducing a SERM that has just been confusing and short circuiting your HTPA?

    2. Oral and TD only Designer Steroids and PH Testosterone replacements and compounds that can be run without test
    MENT- probably the best Test replacement since it not only enhances any additional compounds as a test replacement MENT alone gives great gains unfortunatly lower doses are needed to be able to control estro even with Letro, Asin, Nolva, and Relox
    TD Trest- Almost identical to MENT but I've heard that the estro sides are easier to control. Maybe TD gives a more gradual release of Trest.

    The fallowing are really only effective for adding just a bit of Test replacement if your target compound benefits from just a low Test base
    4-Andro- This is a very weak PH as far as conversion but you can get away with reg dose if other compound needs little Test like DMZ
    Epiandro- This would be less effective version of 4-Andro essentually a very weak weak version of Proviron
    Dermacrine-This is a weak test alternative almost like adding 15mg Test/week while completley shutdown when TRT is 150-200mg/week
    Stano- As far as I know this is almost useless but I may be wrong

    These are the DS anf PH that you can get 80%-100% results without Test or Test replacement, they are listed in a decent order of ranking
    Pheraplex/DMT-Probably the lowest side effect best single oral to run without test Desoxymethyltestosterone is just king
    Superdrol- All of your very strong DHT derivitives will still be very effective without test. Think like running Masterone by it's self
    Halodrol - From all accounts really gives the same effect without any Test
    Msten- Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results
    DMZ -Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results. Also seems to have worse sides without Test base
    Epistane- You will get cut and add just a tiny bit of muscle without Test, mostly a hardener
    Trenavol- Will work a little without a Test base as it's a PH to Tren, but alone it has either a weaker conversion or just weaker effect. Spawn
    [Trenavol & Epistane] was extremely effective because Tren needed that DHT derivative to act as a test base or a boldenone base to really shine
    All the DHEAs alone are worthless
    While I agree that test is not necessarily and your assessment on individual compounds without test. I feel you are way off base with serms.

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    Use code RUTHERFORD30 to save 30%
    http://olympus-labs.com?rfsn=1265109.3d3526

  7. Interesting read. There’s loads of experienced users inclined to agree that some of the stronger 19-Nors function quite well without a test base, I’d go one step further and say that running over a TrT dose of Test only with some of them only aggravates their dreadful sides..

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Matthersby View Post
    Interesting read. There’s loads of experienced users inclined to agree that some of the stronger 19-Nors function quite well without a test base, I’d go one step further and say that running over a TrT dose of Test only with some of them only aggravates their dreadful sides..
    It's for this very reason I was planning on running my test e at 150/wk instead of 300 with tren. Acne got me like a maaafukker.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by rtmilburn View Post
    While I agree that test is not necessarily and your assessment on individual compounds without test. I feel you are way off base with serms.
    I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by FRITZBLITZZ View Post
    I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.
    Totally agree. It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

    Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.

  11. Even though I wasn’t tagged ( probably for the reason I’m about to post) I’ll be the one to be a negative Nancy.

    I stopped reading after your first paragraph an chalked everything up to broscience.
    I see no sources listed referencing data based research. Yes anecdotal evidence has its place, but only in addition to data. There’s plenty of research on steroids.
    I don’t advise anyone to read this and instead do your research from the following:
    Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”
    William Llewelyn “anabolics” (w/e latest edition is)
    Julius vida androgenic anabolic agents: chemistry and pharmacology.

    If you’re going to be using anabolics, don’t be a cheap ass and invest in this so you really know wtf your doing/talking about.

    Then of course reading up on post from users such as Patrick Arnold, henryV, brymaster, etc.
    SNS/CEL REP My UNPSONSORED Higenamine log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/304029-sns-higenamine-log.html#post6039062

  12. Quote Originally Posted by rtmilburn View Post
    Totally agree. It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

    Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.
    Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
    Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
    A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.
    SNS/CEL REP My UNPSONSORED Higenamine log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/304029-sns-higenamine-log.html#post6039062

  13. Quote Originally Posted by brofessorx View Post
    Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
    Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
    A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.
    Well there is a study showing that you can keep normal LH levels on cycle with clomid.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by brofessorx View Post
    Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
    Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
    A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.
    Also I have not seen any evidence that suggest either of us is correct here. It's all broscience with this, so to make assumptions like this and state them as fact is definitely misleading. Now this could very well be the case no doubt.

    However, hcg has its problems as well. It upregulates aromatase, possible desensitization in lyding cells, and it's insanely delicate compound—that can be hard to source the drug, that maintained high enough potency to sell for actual pharmacies, let alone for online— so I think using hcg on cycle is just as big of a risk as trying a clomid or torem on cycle, to maintain LH levels.

    Give it a shot and see for yourself, I liked it I've known others who liked it. Also known some that won't do it again, because they felt mentally off the whole cycle.

  15. Good read. I think guys over complicate this guys are running all these different compounds peptides sarms when theyd grow more just off a gram of test. All these compounds does anyone hit the stage? I compete and am around top competitor's and believe me none of them are running and of this stuff. Its simple . Plus if your not going on stage or have a sponcer why take all these things when its not needed 500mgs of test training hard and eating should be plenty for most.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by brofessorx View Post
    Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
    Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
    A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.
    I am not disagreeing with you as I stated "what little I could find on the subject" meaning real science articles. Could you expand your idea with more detail as far as LH desensitization?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by brofessorx View Post
    Even though I wasn’t tagged ( probably for the reason I’m about to post) I’ll be the one to be a negative Nancy.

    I stopped reading after your first paragraph an chalked everything up to broscience.
    I see no sources listed referencing data based research. Yes anecdotal evidence has its place, but only in addition to data. There’s plenty of research on steroids.
    I don’t advise anyone to read this and instead do your research from the following:
    Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”
    William Llewelyn “anabolics” (w/e latest edition is)
    Julius vida androgenic anabolic agents: chemistry and pharmacology.

    If you’re going to be using anabolics, don’t be a cheap ass and invest in this so you really know wtf your doing/talking about.

    Then of course reading up on post from users such as Patrick Arnold, henryV, brymaster, etc.
    OK well I can just throw your comments out the window "if you stopped reading" ???
    Half of this is actually based from scientific articles that I have in my Evernotes, another 25% based on knowledgeable AM members like fuiledpassion and others, and another 25% based on reputable steroid sites. The other thing you should have picked up on is... I was not writing a STICKEY that was ten pages log. IE I wrote Test replacements and their best partnered compound in 1 sentence without much info on why....because plenty of people can use google search and the search key on AM!!! This was just a Summery not an in depth guide to everything you need to know about running cycles without Test

  18. Quote Originally Posted by rtmilburn View Post
    Also I have not seen any evidence that suggest either of us is correct here. It's all broscience with this, so to make assumptions like this and state them as fact is definitely misleading. Now this could very well be the case no doubt.

    However, hcg has its problems as well. It upregulates aromatase, possible desensitization in lyding cells, and it's insanely delicate compound—that can be hard to source the drug, that maintained high enough potency to sell for actual pharmacies, let alone for online— so I think using hcg on cycle is just as big of a risk as trying a clomid or torem on cycle, to maintain LH levels.

    Give it a shot and see for yourself, I liked it I've known others who liked it. Also known some that won't do it again, because they felt mentally off the whole cycle.
    I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
    I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.

  19. I don't think proviron is liver toxic..
    Think outside the box

  20. Quote Originally Posted by FRITZBLITZZ View Post
    I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.
    only 25mg/day clomid kept my test level at 450 while on a moderate cycle of 400mg primo/ 50mg Dbol. Spurfy checks his LH and FSH on cycle while on torem, and even though its weaket than clomid his levels are always in normal range.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtmilburn View Post
    It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

    Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.
    Not true. Spurfy verified SERMS keep LH and FSH within range. The pituitary stays fully awake on SERMS
    Quote Originally Posted by brofessorx View Post
    Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
    Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
    A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.
    A SERM does accomplish this. Not an AI.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtmilburn View Post
    Well there is a study showing that you can keep normal LH levels on cycle with clomid.
    Yes there is. And many user reports verifying the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRITZBLITZZ View Post
    I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
    I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.
    The fact that the SERM prevented atrophy attests to the fact that it keeps the HTPA awake
    Think outside the box

  21. Quote Originally Posted by FRITZBLITZZ View Post
    I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
    I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.
    Ya i felt as if using serm on cycle allowed me to bounce back to normal MUCH faster, which help maintain my gains. I did still feel a bit supressed initially coming off, but not as bad as i have in the past; however, this could just be because of different steriods being used.

    Is a serm on cycle superior to hcg? I dont know, and i don't think we will ever truly know the that answer. I can tell you sourcing good hcg is not an easy task, soucring good igf-1 is probably easier.

    Side note who has been on a steady dose of trt, with stable bloodwork, then added hcg? I ask because im curious in the difference in your e2 and total T and shbg levels (shbg should raise with hcg, but i have a suspicious i might). Ive seen some studies but i have bot seen much real world data on this.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by RickyBlobby View Post
    I don't think proviron is liver toxic..
    Its not.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by RickyBlobby View Post
    only 25mg/day clomid kept my test level at 450 while on a moderate cycle of 400mg primo/ 50mg Dbol. Spurfy checks his LH and FSH on cycle while on torem, and even though its weaket than clomid his levels are always in normal range.


    Not true. Spurfy verified SERMS keep LH and FSH within range. The pituitary stays fully awake on SERMS

    A SERM does accomplish this. Not an AI.


    Yes there is. And many user reports verifying the same thing.


    The fact that the SERM prevented atrophy attests to the fact that it keeps the HTPA awake
    For the portion you qouted me on, i think you missed interpreted what I was saying, as i was saying exactly the same thing you did.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by RickyBlobby View Post
    I don't think proviron is liver toxic..
    My bad I got 2 compounds mixed up I'll edit
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