LGD 4033 PCT

[dohey1995]

So I've been running MK-677 at 25mg ED now for a couple of months and I'm loving the results I'm seeing!
I'm planning on starting an 8 week cycle of LGD-4033 consisting of 5/5/5/5/10/10/10/10mg. I'll be continuing my daily dose of 25mg MK-677 while doing this.

Using LGD-4033 is the first time I'll be trying a proper anabolic, and although I've done my research I'm looking for advice on a PCT.

Would Nolva 40/40/20/20 and Clomid 50/50/25/25 be OK? Or is this overkill for LGD?

I'm 23yrs old and I'm worried about f*cking up my hormones

 

[Smont]

First off, 5mg of lgd is a total waste unless your a female. 10mg minimum and I'd suggest bumping up to 15-20. Around the 2nd week you might start feeling ****ty, lgd does that to some ppl. Pick one , nolva or clomid, you don't need both.

 

[YoungThor]

I would run it at 0 mg for 8 weeks and then skip the pct. seriously, I’m looking forward to seeing if it does anything more than shut you down. I know ostarine has four main effects. For one it is really good at damaging your liver. Two, it can help you bald faster. Three it shuts you down. And finally it can help prevent muscle wasting. I have heard people say lgd can help you gain up to 5 lbs of lean mass, maybe a little more, but is 5 lbs worth risking your health and getting shut down over? Might as well take oral AAS.

 

[Smont]

I would run it at 0 mg for 8 weeks and then skip the pct. seriously, I’m looking forward to seeing if it does anything more than shut you down. I know ostarine has four main effects. For one it is really good at damaging your liver. Two, it can help you bald faster. Three it shuts you down. And finally it can help prevent muscle wasting. I have heard people say lgd can help you gain up to 5 lbs of lean mass, maybe a little more, but is 5 lbs worth risking your health and getting shut down over? Might as well take oral AAS.

Higher doses of lgd, 15mg+ can have results similar to oral steroids. My little bro had awesome results at 20mg a day. Saw nothing till he got past 10mg

 

[YoungThor]

Higher doses of lgd, 15mg+ can have results similar to oral steroids. My little bro had awesome results at 20mg a day. Saw nothing till he got past 10mg

Did he bulk, cut, or recomp with it? I hear bulking is it’s main use. Not many people go that high with the mg so maybe it’s pretty effective at that dose. I’m ready to just move past SARMS cause I’m seeing more and more terrible blood work and I’ve struggled to find one before and after picture where there’s a meaningful difference or where the guy looks changed enough that he couldn’t have achieved the results naturally.

 

[Kratom267]

Might consider running Torem or Clomid while ON cycle...the idea being that you wont be shut down quiet as much, making PCT easier.
Seems like LGD can be very suppressive.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Might consider running Torem or Clomid while ON cycle...the idea being that you wont be shut down quiet as much, making PCT easier.
Seems like LGD can be very suppressive.

This. Why shut down your system at all if you don’t have to? Run clomid or torem (preferably) throughout and continue for 4 weeks after. 2 weeks after would probably for a compound with a relatively short half life do but unless you get bloods i’d go 4 weeks just to be safe.

And... since you don’t have previous steroid experience you may get some moderate gains off 5-10 mg if LGD. But if you can afford to run it at 20mg you’ll get much better results than 10mg. I will be running it at 40.

 

[Smont]

Put on 10lbs and looked much bigger in 6 weeks. I'm not a fan of sarms at all by the way. I prefer what I know works and long term sides. Sarms are 2 New but lgd at the right dose is fairly strong. Id love to see someone do 50mg a day. Ppl take that dose of dbol or anadrol all the time so y not with lgd? If someone was to say that dose is crazy there basically saying it's stronger and more toxic. It shouldn't be so y not. Price is the only reason I wouldn't make that experiment

 

[Robert11]

Might consider running Torem or Clomid while ON cycle...the idea being that you wont be shut down quiet as much, making PCT easier.
Seems like LGD can be very suppressive.

Based on various bloods I’m seeing I fail to see how clomid/PCT can have any effect with LGD/Ostarine. I’d like to know how that got started. These SARMS do supress you significantly. But I don’t think anyone understands the mechanism at all. Unlike AAS which aromatise thus reduce FSH and LH leading to supression and shutdown, I’ve see various bloods on the compounds where test is supressed, e2 is normal, and FSH and LH are completely normal. What’s even crazier is libido will be fine or even better. It’s almost like the testes are still working but total test is somehow being converted, destroyed, or eliminated.

So since the way clomid works is by blocking estrogen receptors in order to stimulate FSH and LH levels back to normal to stimulate testes into making test, it’s entirely useless and pointless with these compounds as LH, FSH, and e2 are already at normal levels. There is something else at play here keeping test levels low.

 

[Robert11]

This. Why shut down your system at all if you don’t have to? Run clomid or torem (preferably) throughout and continue for 4 weeks after. 2 weeks after would probably for a compound with a relatively short half life do but unless you get bloods i’d go 4 weeks just to be safe.

And... since you don’t have previous steroid experience you may get some moderate gains off 5-10 mg if LGD. But if you can afford to run it at 20mg you’ll get much better results than 10mg. I will be running it at 40.

I don’t think we fully understand how these SARMS are causing supression. It’s not like aas where the pituitary stops LH and FSH. so clomid is useless.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Based on various bloods I’m seeing I fail to see how clomid/PCT can have any effect with LGD/Ostarine. I’d like to know how that got started. These SARMS do supress you significantly. But I don’t think anyone understands the mechanism at all. Unlike AAS which aromatise thus reduce FSH and LH leading to supression and shutdown, I’ve see various bloods on the compounds where test is supressed, e2 is normal, and FSH and LH are completely normal. What’s even crazier is libido will be fine or even better. It’s almost like the testes are still working but total test is somehow being converted, destroyed, or eliminated.

So since the way clomid works is by blocking estrogen receptors in order to stimulate FSH and LH levels back to normal to stimulate testes into making test, it’s entirely useless and pointless with these compounds as LH, FSH, and e2 are already at normal levels. There is something else at play here keeping test levels low.

Link to said studies/ bloodwork? If that was the case ostarine in PCT would keep you shut down, which is not the case when using clomid alongside ostarine..

 

[Robert11]

Link to said studies?

Not studies. That’s just it there are no studies I’ve seen showing the mechanism of shutdown. I’m talking about rats here posting their bloods and showing this. Just look around or better yet have your rat take a blood test a few weeks into lgd or Ostarine and see for yourself.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Not studies. That’s just it there are no studies I’ve seen showing the mechanism of shutdown. I’m talking about rats here posting their bloods and showing this. Just look around or better yet have your rat take a blood test a few weeks into lgd or Ostarine and see for yourself.

So LH and FSH are within normal range? And total T is low, correct? How many sets of bloodwork have you seen like this and how far into cycle?

 

[Wobmarvel]

Did he bulk, cut, or recomp with it? I hear bulking is it’s main use. Not many people go that high with the mg so maybe it’s pretty effective at that dose. I’m ready to just move past SARMS cause I’m seeing more and more terrible blood work and I’ve struggled to find one before and after picture where there’s a meaningful difference or where the guy looks changed enough that he couldn’t have achieved the results naturally.

You see this all the time with AAS cycle logs too though. The only time you will see a huge transformation is usually with someone that has been in amazing shape at some point then let them self go and use peds to get back in shape over an 8 to 12 week period.

 

[Robert11]

So LH and FSH are within normal range? And total T is low, correct? How many sets of bloodwork have you seen like this?

Several here and one first hand. This may explain why so many guys bounce back fine with just otc pct (which is not doing anything). Though I have not seen many bloods to confirm that but I think the OP in the mk-677/Ostarine high liver enzyme threads did bounce back after about a week...gotta go back and check that one.

 

[YoungThor]

Several here and one first hand. This may explain why so many guys bounce back fine with just otc pct (which is not doing anything). Though I have not seen many bloods to confirm that but I think the OP in the mk-677/Ostarine high liver enzyme threads did bounce back after about a week...gotta go back and check that one.

If your thinking of the thread I saw, the guy was about 50% of the way back to normal after 6 days off osta with no SERMS in PCT. His liver values were still way to high but only half as bad as when the cycle just ended.

If you mess your liver up like that for 8 weeks and then heal after about two weeks off, do you think that 8 week beating will still have long term consequences?

 

[YoungThor]

His test levels I believe were back to being on the lower end of the normal range. I’ll have to check the thread to be sure.

 

[Smont]

Link to said studies/ bloodwork? If that was the case ostarine in PCT would keep you shut down, which is not the case when using clomid alongside ostarine..

No1 ever shows, the bloodwork, they all say numbers but never actually show the paperwork. Anabolic minds is going downhill. Every time someone asks to see the person who has the bloodwork to show never show it and makes up a story for y they can't.

 

[Smont]

Thousands of ppl are supposed to be somewhere in this site who use steroids and get bloodwork but only 1 out 100 show the paperwork. It's ridiculous

 

[Robert11]

His test levels I believe were back to being on the lower end of the normal range. I’ll have to check the thread to be sure.

I checked and he was back in normal after a week. I believe similar number to where he was at before cycle.

No, I agree, 8 weeks of liver stress is not good. I don’t know if his case is isolated as far as that, but I can tell you I’ve seen bloods with lgd and mk-677 with no impact on liver.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Several here and one first hand. This may explain why so many guys bounce back fine with just otc pct (which is not doing anything). Though I have not seen many bloods to confirm that but I think the OP in the mk-677/Ostarine high liver enzyme threads did bounce back after about a week...gotta go back and check that one.

Well I've been wrong before...Once. lol. I am quite familiar with AAS but not so much SARMS.

I don't see how SARMS could affect the testes though, it doesn't make sense. And if SERMS did nothing to fight SARM based suppression, no one would ever recover when using osta for PCT. And I know ive read up on several logs showing full recovery using osta. Not saying you're wrong

 

[Robert11]

Well I've been wrong before...Once. lol. I am quite familiar with AAS but not so much SARMS.

I don't see how SARMS could affect the testes though, it doesn't make sense. And if SERMS did nothing to fight SARM based suppression, no one would ever recover when using osta for PCT. And I know ive read up on several logs showing full recovery using osta. Not saying you're wrong

I’ve seen those too, but isn’t that low dose Ostarine? Maybe doesn’t have that effect at lower doses?

 

[YoungThor]

I’m on 10mg osta a day and it’s almost 6 at night but I still haven’t taken my daily dose because I swear I could actually feel a dull ache in my liver all day yesterday (still feels a little strange today). Maybe I’m sensitive to the stuff. And sorry Smont, I do not current have blood work to prove my potential liver issue. I think this stuff is probably toxic crap. If you have links to threads that show blood work after osta for people who experienced no liver issues then I need to see them.

As for lgd, I don’t know how hepatotoxic it is.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I’ve seen those too, but isn’t that low dose Ostarine? Maybe doesn’t have that effect at lower doses?

I have no idea. If I weren't on TRT I would do blood work on my upcoming LGD/S23 cycle just to see though

 

[SwolHippie]

Based on various bloods I’m seeing I fail to see how clomid/PCT can have any effect with LGD/Ostarine. I’d like to know how that got started. These SARMS do supress you significantly. But I don’t think anyone understands the mechanism at all. Unlike AAS which aromatise thus reduce FSH and LH leading to supression and shutdown, I’ve see various bloods on the compounds where test is supressed, e2 is normal, and FSH and LH are completely normal. What’s even crazier is libido will be fine or even better. It’s almost like the testes are still working but total test is somehow being converted, destroyed, or eliminated.

So since the way clomid works is by blocking estrogen receptors in order to stimulate FSH and LH levels back to normal to stimulate testes into making test, it’s entirely useless and pointless with these compounds as LH, FSH, and e2 are already at normal levels. There is something else at play here keeping test levels low.

This is good to know.. haven’t read anything bad about lgd until this post so glad to hear that I should take extra precaution or do some more reading before considering this. Confirmation bias? Only finding what I want to see? Quite possibly so.

In terms of mechanism of how it shuts down test levels could be related to Receptor sensitivity. Lgd could be a potent androgen receptor stimulator (more so than natural testosterone) and so of course if it’s doing testosterones job Of binding to these receptor in skeletal muscle to stimulate or potentiate growth then why would the body produce its own test For this purpose if it’s being supplemented? The Body is smart like that. Also if TSH/LH levels are normal then it must not be suppressing natural test enough otherwise we would expect those levels to rise, right? Anyways, just my two cents. Glad I’m reading more about SARMS before giving them a go.

 

[Hilltern]

This is good to know.. haven’t read anything bad about lgd until this post so glad to hear that I should take extra precaution or do some more reading before considering this. Confirmation bias? Only finding what I want to see? Quite possibly so.

In terms of mechanism of how it shuts down test levels could be related to Receptor sensitivity. Lgd could be a potent androgen receptor stimulator (more so than natural testosterone) and so of course if it’s doing testosterones job Of binding to these receptor in skeletal muscle to stimulate or potentiate growth then why would the body produce its own test For this purpose if it’s being supplemented? The Body is smart like that. Also if TSH/LH levels are normal then it must not be suppressing natural test enough otherwise we would expect those levels to rise, right? Anyways, just my two cents. Glad I’m reading more about SARMS before giving them a go.

In spite of continuing the resurrection here, I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. From what I understand, not tanking your FSH and LH allows for a quicker / less toxic recovery and negates the use of PCT drugs, namely SERMs, which have their own host of side effects. I did a cycle of LGD @ 2.5-3mg/day for 8 weeks about 2 years ago now and bounced back fine without any PCT and I don’t think that’s an exception to the rule.

I’ll post the bloods later if anyone is interested (just have to remove my personal info) but they confirm what Robert11 was saying. I still don’t understand why everyone is gung-ho on taking SERMs for PCT after a SARM cycle - it doesn’t make sense to me to want to stimulate relatively untouched FSH and LH to recover, but maybe I’m missing something.

 

[Smont]

In spite of continuing the resurrection here, I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. From what I understand, not tanking your FSH and LH allows for a quicker / less toxic recovery and negates the use of PCT drugs, namely SERMs, which have their own host of side effects. I did a cycle of LGD @ 2.5-3mg/day for 8 weeks about 2 years ago now and bounced back fine without any PCT and I don’t think that’s an exception to the rule.

I’ll post the bloods later if anyone is interested (just have to remove my personal info) but they confirm what Robert11 was saying. I still don’t understand why everyone is gung-ho on taking SERMs for PCT after a SARM cycle - it doesn’t make sense to me to want to stimulate relatively untouched FSH and LH to recover, but maybe I’m missing something.

Because you took 2.5-3mg, not a "bodybuilding" dose, a lot of females are taking 5-10mg

Most guys are taking 20-40mg of lgd, because at the higher doses it acts more like a oral steroid, putting you in serm PCT territory.

At 10mg or less, I would not think a serm is 100% necessary. But 20+ it's probably a good idea.

Did you get anything out of 2.5mg?

I saw nothing till I got to 20, I actually wouldn't mind using sarms like lgd and rad @ 30-50mg but then it costs a fortune and I'd rather just take regular orals

 

[Hilltern]

Because you took 2.5-3mg, not a "bodybuilding" dose, a lot of females are taking 5-10mg

Most guys are taking 20-40mg of lgd, because at the higher doses it acts more like a oral steroid, putting you in serm PCT territory.

At 10mg or less, I would not think a serm is 100% necessary. But 20+ it's probably a good idea.

Did you get anything out of 2.5mg?

I saw nothing till I got to 20, I actually wouldn't mind using sarms like lgd and rad @ 30-50mg but then it costs a fortune and I'd rather just take regular orals

Sure, a significantly higher dose may suppress you even further and that only makes sense. Do we have any indication that doses above 10mg would suppress your FSH and LH though?

I got decent strength and mass gains out of 2.5-3mg. I read as much of the clinical studies as I could. It appeared there were too great of diminishing returns after 5mg to make it worthwhile. That being said I have considered taking it at 5mg but I don’t see the point of doses higher than that.

 

[Renew1]

Sure, a significantly higher dose may suppress you even further and that only makes sense. Do we have any indication that doses above 10mg would suppress your FSH and LH though?

I got decent strength and mass gains out of 2.5-3mg. I read as much of the clinical studies as I could. It appeared there were too great of diminishing returns after 5mg to make it worthwhile. That being said I have considered taking it at 5mg but I don’t see the point of doses higher than that.

Written papers and studies are often wrong.

I Love to read and study, and have spent a LOT of time doing it.
But first hand accounts are invaluable.

 

[Smont]

Sure, a significantly higher dose may suppress you even further and that only makes sense. Do we have any indication that doses above 10mg would suppress your FSH and LH though?

I got decent strength and mass gains out of 2.5-3mg. I read as much of the clinical studies as I could. It appeared there were too great of diminishing returns after 5mg to make it worthwhile. That being said I have considered taking it at 5mg but I don’t see the point of doses higher than that.

Idk about diminishing returns, the real muscle building effects don't even start till you get over 20. I'd be willing to bet diminishing returns don't start till well over 50mg

 

[jim2509]

Wonder if at the 20mg-30mg range for Lgd and Rad they elicit bad sides? If that's the case might as run PH's the gains are better and sides similar?

 

[Smont]

Wonder if at the 20mg-30mg range for Lgd and Rad they elicit bad sides? If that's the case might as run PH's the gains are better and sides similar?

I got no negatives from either at those doses. Rad I went up to 30 and from 10-20-30 it just got better, nothing much at 10.

Lgd I did injectable and oral, no negatives from either at those doses as well. If they were cheaper id use higher doses

 

[Smont]

Ppl see 50 mg of rad or lgd and they think it's crazy, its really nothing.

50mg is a fairly low dose of anadrol and that is going to be way stronger and more potential sides then 50 mg of any sarm other then s23.

And there's actual medical data showing anadrol being fairly safe up to 300mg per day

 

[jim2509]

I got no negatives from either at those doses. Rad I went up to 30 and from 10-20-30 it just got better, nothing much at 10.

Lgd I did injectable and oral, no negatives from either at those doses as well. If they were cheaper id use higher doses

That's very interesting info thanks. I have a minor shoulder injury and trying to decide whether to run my sarms triple stack of MK677/lgd/rad or Mk677/Halodrol + Dermacrine or 4-AD/Nano 1-T as the best to plough on through? I know people talk about sarms as good for injuries but are the others just as good....who knows? I suppose it's a good dilemma to have at the moment.

 

[Smont]

Wonder if at the 20mg-30mg range for Lgd and Rad they elicit bad sides? If that's the case might as run PH's the gains are better and sides similar?

I'd run the ph purely because of the cost. If Money is not a problem, high dose sarms can do the same muscle building, but potential have the same sides as some steroids. Your never going to know without trying it. Some guys take 10mg of whatever and get everything bad in terms of sides, someone else might use 50 and get zero sides. No way to know

 

[Smont]

That's very interesting info thanks. I have a minor shoulder injury and trying to decide whether to run my sarms triple stack of MK677/lgd/rad or Mk677/,Halodrol + Dermacrine or 4-AD/Nano 1-T as the best to plough on through? I know people talk about sarms as good for injuries but are the others just as good....who knows? I suppose it's a good dilemma to have at the moment.

All I would say is whatever you run, make sure you have something that converts to estrogen, your joints health, lipid health, gains and libido will all be greater with estrogen in your cycle

 

[jim2509]

I'd run the ph purely because of the cost. If Money is not a problem, high dose sarms can do the same muscle building, but potential have the same sides as some steroids. Your never going to know without trying it. Some guys take 10mg of whatever and get everything bad in terms of sides, someone else might use 50 and get zero sides. No way to know

Yeah Halodrol is cheap as. Sarms a

All I would say is whatever you run, make sure you have something that converts to estrogen, your joints health, lipid health, gains and libido will all be greater with estrogen in your cycle

Hmm could be Halodrol/4 AD or Nano 1-T/4AD then as best bet. Thanks for the tip....will need to look into it a bit more before final decision.

 

[Smont]

Im saying the sarms are expensive, prohormones are cheap. 30+mg of lgd or rad for 6-8 weeks will run your pockets

 

[jim2509]

I'd run the ph purely because of the cost. If Money is not a problem, high dose sarms can do the same muscle building, but potential have the same sides as some steroids. Your never going to know without trying it. Some guys take 10mg of whatever and get everything bad in terms of sides, someone else might use 50 and get zero sides. No way to know

Yeah Halodrol is cheap as. Sarms a

All I would say is whatever you run, make sure you have something that converts to estrogen, your joints health, lipid health, gains and libido will all be greater with estrogen in your cycle

Hmm could be Halodrol/4 AD or Nano 1-T/4AD then as best bet. Thanks for the tip....will need to look into it a bit more before final decision.

Im saying the sarms are expensive, prohormones are cheap. 30+mg of lgd or rad for 6-8 weeks will run your pockets

Hell yes. Then again Nano 1-T isnt cheap either that's for sure whereas the Halodrol clone is still cheap.

 

[Smont]

Yeah Halodrol is cheap as. Sarms a

Hmm could be Halodrol/4 AD or Nano 1-T/4AD then as best bet. Thanks for the tip....will need to look into it a bit more before final decision.

Hell yes. Then again Nano 1-T isnt cheap either that's for sure whereas the Halodrol clone is still cheap.

Even hdrol tho, I liked it best at 75,75,100,100,125,125 Or 100 straight through for 6 weeks Gets expensive. How much is nano?

 

[jim2509]

Even hdrol tho, I liked it best at 75,75,100,100,125,125 Or 100 straight through for 6 weeks Gets expensive. How much is nano?

The Nano 1-T is £71.00 bottle...very expensive stuff and if you run it at 2ml a day it ain't gonna last long. Just spoke to mate of mine....he's quite impressed with sarms for stacking and like you didnt get any sides. I'm actually now thinking triple stack as ok the size gains might not be as big as PH's
.....but the sides might not either. To be fair I didnt get many sides from M1-T when I ran that many years ago so could be a winner and with healing benefits thrown in around shoulder.

 

[Smont]

The Nano 1-T is £71.00 bottle...very expensive stuff and if you run it at 2ml a day it ain't gonna last long. Just spoke to mate of mine....he's quite impressed with sarms for stacking and like you didnt get any sides. I'm actually now thinking triple stack as ok the size gains might not be as big as PH's
.....but the sides might not either. To be fair I didnt get many sides from M1-T when I ran that many years ago so could be a winner and with healing benefits thrown in around shoulder.

If m1t didn't give you any side effects I doubt the sarms will, mk677 gives me puffy sensitive nips, that's all I'd watch out for. Maybe add the 4ad or dermacrine at 4-5 pumps to the sarm stack

 

[Hilltern]

Written papers and studies are often wrong.

I Love to read and study, and have spent a LOT of time doing it.
But first hand accounts are invaluable.

Sure, but the info posted from Viking Therapeutics isn’t really that. We’re talking about clinical data, not a theory, and data used with the end goal being to bring a drug to market. I’m not saying that the data is the gospel, drug companies aren’t infallible, but the bias would logically be in the other direction (ie the drug is actually weaker or more harmful than the data shows).

Also, first person experiences are great but ultimately clinical in vivo data is a collection of just that. Not saying 10-50mg doesn’t work or isn’t great, but when the data shows that LBM gains taper off substantially around 5mg+, what’s the point in running it much higher, especially if sides are worse? I’m assuming you guys are tanking FSH and LH at those doses somehow as well?

 

[Renew1]

Sure, but the info posted from Viking Therapeutics isn’t really that. We’re talking about clinical data, not a theory, and data used with the end goal being to bring a drug to market. I’m not saying that the data is the gospel, drug companies aren’t infallible, but the bias would logically be in the other direction (ie the drug is actually weaker or more harmful than the data shows).

Also, first person experiences are great but ultimately clinical in vivo data is a collection of just that. Not saying 10-50mg doesn’t work or isn’t great, but when the data shows that LBM gains taper off substantially around 5mg+, what’s the point in running it much higher, especially if sides are worse? I’m assuming you guys are tanking FSH and LH at those doses somehow as well?

You know, it will seem odd for some of the guys, seeing me take this stance, as I constantly encourage them to study.
But in reality, there's nothing odd about it at all.
Studying, is INCREDIBLY important.
But nothing beats reliable first-hand accounts.

Nothing.

There's a couple of guys currently who seem to be in agreement with you, that the papers, studies, and trials trump what you can see, feel, touch, and hear.
But that's just wrong.

You mentioned that trials are made up of first-hand accounts.

Exactly.

The difference is ... I don't know and trust the study participants, and paper authors.
But I know Many of the guys whose accounts I take into consideration.
And sometimes one of those guys is me.

 

[Smont]

Sure, but the info posted from Viking Therapeutics isn’t really that. We’re talking about clinical data, not a theory, and data used with the end goal being to bring a drug to market. I’m not saying that the data is the gospel, drug companies aren’t infallible, but the bias would logically be in the other direction (ie the drug is actually weaker or more harmful than the data shows).

Also, first person experiences are great but ultimately clinical in vivo data is a collection of just that. Not saying 10-50mg doesn’t work or isn’t great, but when the data shows that LBM gains taper off substantially around 5mg+, what’s the point in running it much higher, especially if sides are worse? I’m assuming you guys are tanking FSH and LH at those doses somehow as well?

Ok, in real world application, the muscle gains don't even start till well after 5 mg. There is a big difference between a study done on a sedentary person, or the elderly or someone that does not work out at all vs. someone who already works out hard and there goal is to build muscle. Studies are great but you gotta take them with a grain of salt, when you try to bring most of these medical studies into a situation where the individual is already trained and a bodybuilding or powerlifting real life situation, the study is usually not worth the paper it's written on

 

[Smont]

You know, it will seem odd for some of the guys, seeing me take this stance, as I constantly encourage them to study.
But in reality, there's nothing odd about it at all.
Studying, is INCREDIBLY important.
But nothing beats reliable first-hand accounts.
Nothing.

There's a couple of guys currently who seem to be in agreement with you, that the papers, studies, and trials trump what you can see, feel, touch, and hear.
But that's just wrong.

You mentioned that trials are made up of first-hand accounts.

Exactly.

The difference is ... I don't know and trust the study participants, and paper authors.
But I know Many of the guys who accounts I take into consideration.
And sometimes that guy is me.

100% agree

 

[Hilltern]

We are in agreement that the studies won’t apply perfectly to active, trained, and otherwise healthy individuals but I would think that the LBM gains per mg would be greater not less than the studies? If you’re maximizing performance I’m not sure what would lead us to think the doses would result in less gains?

Also, out of genuine curiosity have you guys tried LGD at the lower doses? I can’t speak to the higher doses but I can say the lower doses seemed to track pretty well with what those studies were saying.

 

[Smont]

We are in agreement that the studies won’t apply perfectly to active, trained, and otherwise healthy individuals but I would think that the LBM gains per mg would be greater not less than the studies? If you’re maximizing performance I’m not sure what would lead us to think the doses would result in less gains?

Also, out of genuine curiosity have you guys tried LGD at the lower doses? I can’t speak to the higher doses but I can say the lower doses seemed to track pretty well with what those studies were saying.

The gains in the studies are always far greater because a untrained individual will respond far batter to drugs and training then someone who is already carrying some muscle and or has used performance enhancing drugs. So the trained person is not going to get as good of results as the person in the study. There for more drug required then the study was done on.

 

[Smont]

We are in agreement that the studies won’t apply perfectly to active, trained, and otherwise healthy individuals but I would think that the LBM gains per mg would be greater not less than the studies? If you’re maximizing performance I’m not sure what would lead us to think the doses would result in less gains?

Also, out of genuine curiosity have you guys tried LGD at the lower doses? I can’t speak to the higher doses but I can say the lower doses seemed to track pretty well with what those studies were saying.

I also said multiple times. I really got nothing out of lgd or rad till I hit 20mg. there's no shortage of people complaining that sarms don't work mainly because they use the low doses from the study and don't get results.

 

[Smont]

I'm just going to agree to disagree and move on