NO TEST BASE?!?!

[YoungThor]

Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?

 

[mase1]

So you feel good and are fully functional. Libido and energy are important to me.

 

[Smont]

Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?

Because some time back it was made a "must". I think ppl should but with real test. There have been plenty of successful cycles without it. I've done it myself but it definitely makes a difference in how you feel. I can run hdrol no test, dbol no test, eq no test. All were experiment but test is best

 

[210LBS]

It's pretty much the standard rule around here in order to keep libido, prevent lethargy etc. But you're right, they didn't use test bases back in the day and the steroids certainly seemed to work for them. My guess would be that it can be very much person dependent. Some people may be able to tolerate cycles with no test base. I think it probably depends on the cycle too. Some are more suppressive than others. But can you run proviron or MENT instead? I don't see why not but maybe more people can chime in and give you a better answer.

I've heard people say that they didn't use test back in the day because it wasn't available.. but how is that possible? Didn't they still have some sort of TRT even back then? Wasn't methyltestosterone being used even before then for low testosterone?

 

[Renew1]

It's pretty much the standard rule around here in order to keep libido, prevent lethargy etc. But you're right, they didn't use test bases back in the day and the steroids certainly seemed to work for them. My guess would be that it can be very much person dependent. Some people may be able to tolerate cycles with no test base. I think it probably depends on the cycle too. Some are more suppressive than others. But can you run proviron or MENT instead? I don't see why not but maybe more people can chime in and give you a better answer.

I've heard people say that they didn't use test back in the day because it wasn't available.. but how is that possible? Didn't they still have some sort of TRT even back then? Wasn't methyltestosterone being used even before then for low testosterone?

I'm almost positive that Test was available back then.

Did Arnold say he did not use Test??

 

[210LBS]

I'm almost positive that Test was available back then.

Did Arnold say he did not use Test??

I've definitely read that none of them used test back then. I never really got a good answer as to why though. Most of them just say that is wasn't accessible, but I don't understand how that is possible.

 

[Nac]

Test bases tend to add to a cycle, in many ways. Theres so many available. Why wouldnt you run one?

People used to get by without using preworkouts or protein shakes either.

HTH

 

[210LBS]

Test bases tend to add to a cycle, in many ways. Theres so many available. Why wouldnt you run one?

People used to get by without using preworkouts or protein shakes either.

HTH

You ever see what Arnold's protein shake looked like? If I remember correctly, he basically just put the kitchen in a blender.

 

[Nac]

You ever see what Arnold's protein shake looked like? If I remember correctly, he basically just put the kitchen in a blender.

Ugh, Ive tried sh1t like that, too thick

 

[210LBS]

Ugh, Ive tried sh1t like that, too thick

When I was younger I tried the supposed protein shake he drank. I got the recipe somewhere online so who even knows if it was even legit, but I remember it was a bunch of milk, ice cream, bananas, peanut butter, etc etc etc. Sounds tasty but it was the worst 4000 calories I ever had.

 

[The Express 42]

You do understand that a test base is recommended to keep libido and energy up. Lethargy can get real when your test starts to get suppressed. Can you use other ph’s and steroids and still make great gains? Of course! The base is just making sure you maintain a state of well being on cycle which is in my opinion very worth it. It doesn’t really “add” to your gains unless you’re using test or trest at a decent dose.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

It’s not “mandatory” but it definitely would make the cycle better. My first two cycles I ran no test base and felt fine; my third cycle I also ran no test base, but I eventually felt the lethargy and it really killed the potential of the cycle. I had no energy in the gym and wasn’t able to get great workouts.

 

[Nac]

Consider the cows, for example. The vets load them up with tren, no test base, and those poor fukers are lethargic as fuk. They prolly see their horse buddies in the next paddock getting loaded with EQ, and think "those lucky bastards".

 

[RickyBlobby]

There are 2 sides to the test is best coin

Side 1: Maintain energy, libido on longer cycles. Additional gains from the added hormones.
Side 2: You will be shut down more when you come off due to the increased amount of androgens, therefore making it harder to recover and making you feel worse and lose more gains during your PCT.

Its a double edged sword; that said, I think on longer cycles (longer than 4) I would prefer to have a test base, trestolone is another very viable option however will make recovery afterwards even more difficult because your testosterone production will be even more suppressed.

Dbol was the "test base" of the old school bodybuilders, it seems. It aromatises, 5A reduces, and basically gives your body everything test would, correct me if I'm wrong. I wouldn't be scared to run Dbol 12 weeks solo. With a SERM of course to limit-eliminate suppression.

For a 4-6 week PH cycle, I probably wouldn't worry about test, just a SERM. Once you get into pinning test, its pointless to run 4 to 6 weeks cycles in my opinion because that's when the test starts really kicking in. When yo start pinning test, IT should be your main cycle compound with the oral used to "kickstart" the gains.

But if youre worried about your test levels tanking and feeling lethargic, and don't want to do test, I'd just run clomid at 25mg/day throughout the cycle, ramping up to a max of 50mg if you notice nutt shrinkage.

That's just one of many takes on this subject.

 

[YoungThor]

There are 2 sides to the test is best coin

Side 1: Maintain energy, libido on longer cycles. Additional gains from the added hormones.
Side 2: You will be shut down more when you come off due to the increased amount of androgens, therefore making it harder to recover and making you feel worse and lose more gains during your PCT.

Its a double edged sword; that said, I think on longer cycles (longer than 4) I would prefer to have a test base, trestolone is another very viable option however will make recovery afterwards even more difficult because your testosterone production will be even more suppressed.

Dbol was the "test base" of the old school bodybuilders, it seems. It aromatises, 5A reduces, and basically gives your body everything test would, correct me if I'm wrong. I wouldn't be scared to run Dbol 12 weeks solo. With a SERM of course to limit-eliminate suppression.

For a 4-6 week PH cycle, I probably wouldn't worry about test, just a SERM. Once you get into pinning test, its pointless to run 4 to 6 weeks cycles in my opinion because that's when the test starts really kicking in. When yo start pinning test, IT should be your main cycle compound with the oral used to "kickstart" the gains.

But if youre worried about your test levels tanking and feeling lethargic, and don't want to do test, I'd just run clomid at 25mg/day throughout the cycle, ramping up to a max of 50mg if you notice nutt shrinkage.

That's just one of many takes on this subject.

Great info. I believe proviron can also be used as a test base, as someone mentioned above. This could be a good option for anyone who doesn’t pin for whatever reason.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Great info. I believe proviron can also be used as a test base, as someone mentioned above. This could be a good option for anyone who doesn’t pin for whatever reason.

Yes proviron would help with energy and libido, you would have to watch it with a dry compound however as your estrogen levels would tank. Your SERM should keep estrogen level in check though. I don't see any reason no to run one during ANY cycle.

 

[booneman77]

Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?

it depends what you run, how long, and how bad the sides are... I've personally run a few cycles of dry ph's without and had minimal issues (some lethargy but nothing intolerable)... very much "personal preference".

 

[Godstrength]

People use a test "base" for one reason... To feel better on cycle. If you want that then test is best (there's td versions out there if you don't want to pin). If you don't want to use that you can find trest oral or td and if you don't want to use that there's 4andro.

You can do without but why would you? Spend the extra money even 4 andro at 2-300mg/day makes a huge difference in energy, well being and libido. To me its worth the extra money but that's just me.

 

[Kratom267]

I was talking to PA about running a test base during my upcoming DMZ cycle, he had this to say:
"Lethargy from methylated oral such as DMZ is rarely caused by low testosterone. It is almost always caused by the drug itself, which means there is usually nothing you can do to get rid of it...if it even effects you this way to begin with. Not everyone experiences this side effect. Most people that experience this side effect start to feel it within 3-10 days...and no amount of testosterone is going to get rid of it."

 

[Kratom267]

Just a guess, but wouldn't most of the lethargy from PH's be from how it effects your liver (and not your test levels)? I'm assuming that's what PA was talking about...

 

[RickyBlobby]

I think it CAN be from s combo. For instance, a dry compound alone will kill your test levels, and estrogen namely. You will feel off with no estrogen. And then compound toxicity can play a part at the same time, making you feel worse.

But I agree, the majority of the time it Is likely the compounds' toxicity making you feel ill, for the most part. Seems like wet compounds tend to make you feel better than dry compounds though. Could have something to do with estrogen.

 

[Kratom267]

I think it CAN be from s combo. For instance, a dry compound alone will kill your test levels, and estrogen namely. You will feel off with no estrogen. And then compound toxicity can play a part at the same time, making you feel worse.

But I agree, the majority of the time it Is likely the compounds' toxicity making you feel ill, for the most part. Seems like wet compounds tend to make you feel better than dry compounds though. Could have something to do with estrogen.

Yeah on another forum, he mentioned how DMZ especially will crush your estro levels...and how running an AI while on cycle with DMZ is not a good idea.
Maybe i should buy some 4andro and run that, wouldn't that raise estrogen levels a bit? And if so, THEN would i need to run an AI on cycle to level things out a bit? Decisions decisions...
I was planning on running Dermacrine and Stano200 caps, but not sure how that will effect my estrogen levels (if at all). Stano dries you out, correct...but what about Dermacrine...might just leave the Stano out on this cycle.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Yeah on another forum, he mentioned how DMZ especially will crush your estro levels...and how running an AI while on cycle with DMZ is not a good idea.
Maybe i should buy some 4andro and run that, wouldn't that raise estrogen levels a bit? And if so, THEN would i need to run an AI on cycle to level things out a bit? Decisions decisions...
I was planning on running Dermacrine and Stano200 caps, but not sure how that will effect my estrogen levels (if at all). Stano dries you out, correct...but what about Dermacrine...might just leave the Stano out on this cycle.

Not really familiar with 4andro, or dermacrine, sorry. So you're running DMZ solo? For how long?

 

[Kratom267]

Not really familiar with 4andro, or dermacrine, sorry. So you're running DMZ solo? For how long?

32mg for 4 weeks, possibly 5 weeks if sides aren't too bad. I haven't run anything in a few years, so hopefully I will respond well...
Basically just trying to decide on what support supps/test base to use, so many options out there.
I used to always run Stano200 at 800mg a day with my cycle but after searching around and learning how bad DMZ crushes estrogen, I'm thinking maybe no Stano. Ill be running Dermacrine for sure, but not sure about the 4-andro...Or how much to dose.
I cant seem to find any solid info on the conversion rate with 4 andro either...I'm guessing that while it does raise estro a bit, its not a substantial amount. I would really rather avoid running an AI on cycle, I never have in the past, but i don't remember exactly how i responded to DMZ alone.

 

[RickyBlobby]

32mg for 4 weeks, possibly 5 weeks if sides aren't too bad. I haven't run anything in a few years, so hopefully I will respond well...
Basically just trying to decide on what support supps/test base to use, so many options out there.
I used to always run Stano200 at 800mg a day with my cycle but after searching around and learning how bad DMZ crushes estrogen, I'm thinking maybe no Stano. Ill be running Dermacrine for sure, but not sure about the 4-andro...Or how much to dose.
I cant seem to find any solid info on the conversion rate with 4 andro either...I'm guessing that while it does raise estro a bit, its not a substantial amount. I would really rather avoid running an AI on cycle, I never have in the past, but i don't remember exactly how i responded to DMZ alone.

Why dermacrine instead of trest? Made me feel like a king

 

[Kratom267]

Why dermacrine instead of trest? Made me feel like a king

Trest kinda scares me a bit...though i don't know much about it, other than estro levels are a concern with it. I have no idea where to buy it anyhow, if you can point me in the right direction with basic info and source, it would be most appreciated!

 

[Kratom267]

Found this...though not sure how reliable the info is...
The best Test Base Depends on your Goal
Here’s a fairly simple explanation when the top four “test base” compounds/products might best suit your goals.
Dermacrine or Topical DHEA – This is best used if you simply want to use a topical product (some people like rubbing themselves), or if you have previous experience with DHEA and experience the cognitive benefit, and feeling of well-being it provides some users. Overall it is the least effective “test base”.
4-AD (4-DHEA) – 4-AD is a two step prohormone that converts to actual testosterone. The problem with 4-AD is that at some point it causes a negative feedback loop (the body recognizes increased levels of testosterone) and begins aromatizing to estrogen at a greater degree. That means there is a proverbial ceiling on how much you can increase testosterone. In my years of use, and extensive experience with 4-AD, I believe you can replace endogenous testosterone to about 25-50% of your normal levels. That means you won’t get a “testosterone high” but it can certainly help maintain your libido, energy, and decrease or limit lethargy.
Stano (epiandrosterone and/or androsterone) – This a prohormone to dyhydrotestosterone (DHT). Another major metabolite of its use is an aromatase inhibitor. Unlike 4-AD, stano will be very dry, and it will lower estrogens to a mild degree. This is greater for avoiding gyno. It also provides users fairly reasonable levels of energy, and some report fat loss benefits (probably just lowered water retention). Again stano, like 4-AD, is not going to result in supraphysiological levels of testosterone, so it will not result in greater on cycle gains, but it will help mitigate some of the previously mentioned side effects.Note – An extremely good stack (for a test base) is a combination of both 4-AD and Stano. It attacks the steroidogenic pathway on both sides of the pendulum.
Trestolone (or MENT) – Trestolone, unlike all the previous mentioned testosterone bases is actually powerful enough to illicit gains on top of whatever you are already stacking it with. It generally causes large increases in libido, and energy levels. It comes at a cost of greatly reducing sperm count (as it was originally created as a male contraceptive), but this seems to return to normal levels after discontinuing its use. Until recently oral MENT was the only thing available. It was okay, however its use was somewhat limited by its extremely short half-life (under 3 hours). Now there are transdermal trestolone options available, which will provide a sustained delivery of trestolone over the course of the day, making this the most powerful “test base” available to prohormone users today.
Hopefully the above helps you narrow down your decision, and remember that a “test base” isn’t absolutely needed. In fact, for many guys in contest prep, they avoid such compounds.

 

[Kratom267]

4ad and Stano perhaps like the article suggests?

 

[RickyBlobby]

Dermacrine is the weakest test base, and 4-AD only gives you 25-50% of your original test levels. I think a SERM would keep your levels higher than that. Mine was at 450 on a pretty heavy cycle at only 25mg/ day.

Do you have anything against pinning?

 

[Kratom267]

Dermacrine is the weakest test base, and 4-AD only gives you 25-50% of your original test levels. I think a SERM would keep your levels higher than that. Mine was at 450 on a pretty heavy cycle at only 25mg/ day.

Do you have anything against pinning?

Nothing against pinning, but I'm not quite there yet...I was looking into doing a Test-E cycle (500mg/week) for 10 to 12 weeks, but will probably do it next year after this DMZ cycle. Still in early research for me. Sounds f'n amazing though, and look forward to not having to worry about so many sides that come with PH use!
That said, id rather not pin Trest, at this time...

As far as dermacrine goes, ive heard that it mainly helps with keeping things in balance, nothing major though. If it helps some with keeping my mood in check, then its worth it. Hopefully it helps keep lethargy down, to a degree. Might just run low dosed Stano200 (maybe around 600mg) and also 4-ad...not sure on that dosage though.
One of my main goals with this cycle is to keep things simple. And of course...Ive spun outta control a bit haha.
I might just do DMZ solo for a week and see how the sides are and how i feel, then add other supps as needed. For the life of me, i cant remember my last DMZ run, i know I ran Stano with it...but not sure if I loved that cycle or not.

 

[Kratom267]

Cant run clomid on cycle, for whatever reason, clomid seems to enlarge my prostate a bit...so running it with a PH that most likely already effects the prostate wouldn't be a good idea for me. Sucks.
Thinking about buying some Torem, testing it for a couple days and see how the ol' pee stream is. If all good, ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle.
If i do run torem, would I be able to run 4-ad and DMZ with no worries of estro related side effects on cycle?

Id rather not use an AI on cycle, trying to keep things as simple as possible...I figure the less chemically filled capsules i swallow, the better off my liver is!

 

[Nac]

Theres always trade-offs with this stuff.

Dermacrine may be the mildest, as in it wont directly add gainz to your cycle like trest might, but youll also get little grief with it in regards to sides. Its the lowest risk option, for sure. But as noted, the cognitive and well-being effects of it can be all you need to keep feeling at least normal on-cycle.

Id really only recommend trest if you have experience with AI use and/or aromatising compounds, and are somewhat confident you have no existing gyno issues.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Nothing against pinning, but I'm not quite there yet...I was looking into doing a Test-E cycle (possibly 500mg/week) for 10 to 12 weeks, but will probably do it next year after this DMZ cycle. Still in early research for me. Sounds f'n amazing though, and look forward to not having to worry about so many sides that come with PH use!
That said, id rather not pin Trest, at this time...

As far as dermacrine goes, ive heard that it mainly helps with keeping things in balance, nothing major though. If it helps some with keeping my mood in check, then its worth it. Hopefully it helps keep lethargy down, to a degree. Might just run low dosed Stano200 (maybe around 600mg) and also 4-ad...not sure on that dosage though.
One of my main goals with this cycle is to keep things simple. And of course...Ive spun outta control a bit haha.
I might just do DMZ solo for a week and see how the sides are and how i feel, then add other supps as needed. For the life of me, i cant remember my last DMZ run, i know I ran Stano with it...but not sure if I loved that cycle or not.

I'm probably not the pest person to take advice from as far as these new school designer hormones. All I can say is watch who you are getting info from.... If they are reps, or get their info from reps the info may be exaggerated.

You can get transdermal trest form Olympus UK I believe. Probably other UK based companies too. Wish I could help more

 

[RickyBlobby]

Cant run clomid on cycle, for whatever reason, clomid seems to enlarge my prostate a bit...so running it with a PH that most likely already effects the prostate wouldn't be a good idea for me. Sucks.
Thinking about buying some Torem, testing it for a couple days and see how the ol' pee stream is. If all good, ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle.
If i do run torem, would I be able to run 4-ad and DMZ with no worries of estro related side effects on cycle?

Id rather not use an AI on cycle, trying to keep things as simple as possible...I figure the less chemically filled capsules i swallow, the better off my liver is!

DMZ is dry I'm pretty sure...? No AI needed. Torem should be enough to counter any rebound related estro sides in PCT. I would do DMZ, torem, and if you can afford it for peace of mine go for dermacrine or something like that. Or TD trest

 

[Kratom267]

I'm probably not the pest person to take advice from as far as these new school designer hormones. All I can say is watch who you are getting info from.... If they are reps, or get their info from reps the info may be exaggerated.

You can get transdermal trest form Olympus UK I believe. Probably other UK based companies too. Wish I could help more

Naw man, you've been of great help, especially to trade ideas/info with! Good to see helpful and open minded folks on this forum...some more so than others haha.

Ill look in to that transdermal Trest...any idea of a good starting dosage?

...cant wait to do a Test-E cycle! Id rather just jump in to that and skip the PH run...but the lady wont hear of it for now! And ill need her around for the injections

 

[TheBigJS]

Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?

I have a theory that some genetically gifted top pros don't shutdown even with huge levels they take. Lee Priest has spoken about not being a fan of Test, having bloods done just after cycle and being fine. Even now after christ knows how much AAS abuse he's not low T (although he is paying the price)

Try it, just make sure you've got some Test on hand....ideally Test Prop if you want a quick "fix"

 

[RickyBlobby]

Naw man, you've been of great help, especially to trade ideas/info with! Good to see helpful and open minded folks on this forum...some more so than others haha.

Ill look in to that transdermal Trest...any idea of a good starting dosage?

...cant wait to do a Test-E cycle! Id rather just jump in to that and skip the PH run...but the lady wont hear of it for now! And ill need her around for the injections

25mg transdermally 3x a day is what ive done. Swear to God that **** is so potent my voice got super deep in like 3 days. People were like, why are you talking like that, lol. Do NOT start without an AI. I want to believe Spurdy that torem will protect you but just in case your body reacts a certain way I would have AI on hand.

I used topical formestane and got no itchy nips or anything. And I am gyno prone.

I don't know what it is about trest, but it felt like I was on women's radar waaay more when I was on that stuff, it brings about a certain animal magnetism I guess. And I'm not super good looking either lol.

That said, if you have a girl, and you decide to try it, you need to watch it, lol. Slut mode 24/7 For me at least. I was staying up till 3 in the morning every night banging different chicks... every night, like a savage!!! Beating their ass, choking them and sh!t lol....and working 12 hours a day the next day. Man.

 

[Nac]

With TD trest, less than a week and Id have the craziest muscle fullness, esp in the pecs. And lol not te boobz, but upper pecs would just inflate. So good.

 

[RickyBlobby]

And lol not te boobz.

lol

 

[GreekTheBrick]

I ran Adrol solo and I slept all day. Strong and tired af. Worst period I have ever had. Brain fog, no libido at all, tired all day.

 

[Renew1]

Cant run clomid on cycle, for whatever reason, clomid seems to enlarge my prostate a bit...so running it with a PH that most likely already effects the prostate wouldn't be a good idea for me. Sucks.
Thinking about buying some Torem, testing it for a couple days and see how the ol' pee stream is. If all good, ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle.
If i do run torem, would I be able to run 4-ad and DMZ with no worries of estro related side effects on cycle?

Id rather not use an AI on cycle, trying to keep things as simple as possible...I figure the less chemically filled capsules i swallow, the better off my liver is!

If you're trying to avoid Estrogenic type sides, Trest isn't the way to go (although I like it personally). It is one of the worst you'll find in that regard. If DMZ is as dry as stated, Dermacrine would be a great choice (in my opinion). It'll make you feel much better. I used to run it years ago myself.

What the article seems to be saying is that 4ad will start converting to Estrogen after a certain point. But that is true for any external Test...not just 4ad.