Is an AI REALLY necessary on cycle?

[KnewB]

I've done my research and I know a lot of ppl say run an ai during cycle(maintain estrogen and whatnot) but I am just curious, is it REALLY necessary? ..

Say you have nolvadex on hand(which you should have something for sides), would you be fine just having that if estrogen gets too much, or is running an ai really that much of a necessity?

Thanks for any input, again, I've done my research, just curious as to what others say..

 

[Bintherduntht]

I've done my research and I know a lot of ppl say run an ai during cycle(maintain estrogen and whatnot) but I am just curious, is it REALLY necessary? ..

Say you have nolvadex on hand(which you should have something for sides), would you be fine just having that if estrogen gets too much, or is running an ai really that much of a necessity?

Thanks for any input, again, I've done my research, just curious as to what others say..

IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!:

No. Nolva was enough.

For a lot of guys on here, they will tell you yes.

 

[DePunisher]

I'd say yes, better safe then sorry.

 

[Nac]

Depends on the cycle, of course, and you.

"Necessary" is a pretty strong word. Strictly speaking, in this context it implies that achieving some goal is impossible without using one. So, depends on the goal.

Goal 1: prevent gyno

Goal 2: lower estrogen

Goal 3: reduce sexual dysfunction

Goal 4: reduce estrogen sensivity

Goal 5: reduce aromatase

Goal 5: increase bench max

The point here is not me making this more difficult than it need be, but to try and point out how the OP question is kinda silly in being so non-specific.

Anyway, I think an AI is probably a better "all round" ancilliary for on-cycle than just about anything else.

 

[Whisky]

Just from my limited experience I’d have said this depends on both the individual and the cycle.

If your gyno prone and running something that aromatises heavily then you’d probably want an ai (is it essential - probably not but personally I don’t like the man titty look).

Lots of cycles probably wouldn’t need one as a default but having one on hand to deal with issues if they arise seems like the smart play in my mind.

Personally I’d want all the tools at my disposal to get the best possible outcomes....

 

[YamahaC76]

I mean, prior to the cycle this was my biggest concern. I have everything on hand. I started dosing ADEX @ .25mg E3D and that was too much...this turned into every 5th day...and so on. At this point it's really when I can just tell my estrogen is too high, or really just .25mg E10D.

Point is, that "I" really don't "need" an AI, in the context you are using "need" (my interpretation). However, for preventing any gyno, and just good practice of lowering my estrogen to keep things where they should be on paper, you should get one.

I mean, have you even read the anabolic's section on this board...half of them are gyno posts. What if you're the guy that gets itchy nips 2 weeks in...In this sense, it's impossible to know where you fall in the spectrum, so to me, it would be non-negotiable, regardless if you "needed" it or not.

I'm not saying you specifically OP, but I'd question anybody looking to save $40-50 on an AI for a cycle when a gyno surgery is significantly more than that. The posts titled "do I need this" tend to be masquerading as saving a few $ imo... also Nolva doesn't eliminate aromatase (your estrogen), you're just moving the problem somewhere else for the time being, you may even hate how you feel on nolva, they do different things from AI's.

 

[heavylifter33]

I've done my research and I know a lot of ppl say run an ai during cycle(maintain estrogen and whatnot) but I am just curious, is it REALLY necessary? ..

Say you have nolvadex on hand(which you should have something for sides), would you be fine just having that if estrogen gets too much, or is running an ai really that much of a necessity?

Thanks for any input, again, I've done my research, just curious as to what others say..

For what type of cycle lol? Just asking if it's necessary is not answerable. For a weak PH cycle? Probably not. For an injectible cycle it is 100% needed. For a strong oral cycle, 100% needed. This isn't a matter of opinion.

 

[Newth]

I've done my research and I know a lot of ppl say run an ai during cycle(maintain estrogen and whatnot) but I am just curious, is it REALLY necessary? ..

Say you have nolvadex on hand(which you should have something for sides), would you be fine just having that if estrogen gets too much, or is running an ai really that much of a necessity?

Thanks for any input, again, I've done my research, just curious as to what others say..

Depends, if your sensitive then yes if not the no.

I MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!:

No. Nolva was enough.

For a lot of guys on here, they will tell you yes.

This is exactly how it was for me.Until I was dumb with a short ester.

 

[Chados]

There are more things than gyno that comes with estrogen. Sure you can run nolva or (nothing) at all and be fine with gyno but you can still depending mostly on dosage have high estrogen. I personally don't wanna have high estrogen. Read up on high estrogen and what it does and then decide wether it's worth It..

I'm asking myself what people mean by saying they're fine. Fine because they didn't get boobs or fine because they guess they didn't cause any damage to their body? making the choice of taking something that's harmful to your body and then to decide if you want this to be as healthy for your body as possible or not is something you have to decide.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Just from my limited experience I’d have said this depends on both the individual and the cycle.

If your gyno prone and running something that aromatises heavily then you’d probably want an ai (is it essential - probably not but personally I don’t like the man titty look).

Lots of cycles probably wouldn’t need one as a default but having one on hand to deal with issues if they arise seems like the smart play in my mind.

Personally I’d want all the tools at my disposal to get the best possible outcomes....

I'm extremely gyno prone...
I've had tits since I was a little boy.

I mean with lumps under the nips and everything. Don't anymore.

My point is, never needed am AI

 

[KnewB]

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I did just re-read my post and see how extremely vague I was with my question. Anyways I pretty much got the answer which I was looking for anyhow(which I kinda expected to begin with) but I have ai and nolva, most likely going to run it, the ai that is, just for basic test cycle at 5/wk.. Just got reading into other older forums too much with flip-flopping responses and started overthinking things I already knew from personal research.
Thanks again

 

[pureburl]

Just take an AI lol

 

[KnewB]

Lol roger that

 

[ohiostate2827]

I run an AI as needed. I convert to estrogen easy. Seems so more now that I'm older

 

[DePunisher]

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I did just re-read my post and see how extremely vague I was with my question. Anyways I pretty much got the answer which I was looking for anyhow(which I kinda expected to begin with) but I have ai and nolva, most likely going to run it, the ai that is, just for basic test cycle at 5/wk.. Just got reading into other older forums too much with flip-flopping responses and started overthinking things I already knew from personal research.
Thanks again

Well now we know we rather want to prevent something then cure it. A few years ago we rather cured something then trying to prevent it.
Like someone already mentioned AI arnt that expensive if you look at the price of gyno or you must like men boobs

 

[Spurfy]

I MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!:

No. Nolva was enough.

For a lot of guys on here, they will tell you yes.

This.

A SERM, preferably toremifene, should always be run on cycle. AIs are old-school and not as effective, too hard to dial in, and really just not worth it.

 

[KnewB]

This.

A SERM, preferably toremifene, should always be run on cycle. AIs are old-school and not as effective, too hard to dial in, and really just not worth it.

See there's always such mixed responses. Some say always run an ai during, some say it's not necessary to run depending on the kind of cycle, some say run serms during, some say to just keep an Ai or serm on hand just for combat purposes of problems start.

I suppose it really just boils down to the individual and personal preference/experiences.

 

[DePunisher]

See there's always such mixed responses. Some say always run an ai during, some say it's not necessary to run depending on the kind of cycle, some say run serms during, some say to just keep an Ai or serm on hand just for combat purposes of problems start.

I suppose it really just boils down to the individual and personal preference/experiences.

Thats because everything has its place but doesn't mean its the best.... Just use your mind... Doesn't mean its always smart to do that kind of stuff. People will say use speed while you use steroids so you get laser like focus and a hardcore pump while training or whatever. Sure can be that you get these benefits, doesn't mean its the best and that you should do it

 

[RickyBlobby]

Even on TRT my nips get really sore and developed lumps (turned to gyno under m right nip). I am estro sensitive. BUT I wasn's nearly as sensitive before I did DBOL with no AI. Ever since then, I dunno if I created more estrogen receptors because I was flooded with estrogen, but I have to keep an AI on hand and take a couple times a week or my nips get real sore. Think I might switch to a SERM though.

 

[Chados]

See there's always such mixed responses. Some say always run an ai during, some say it's not necessary to run depending on the kind of cycle, some say run serms during, some say to just keep an Ai or serm on hand just for combat purposes of problems start.

I suppose it really just boils down to the individual and personal preference/experiences.

But what he said doesn't make any sense. An ai is to control estrogen nolva is not. So what benefit do you have by using nolva if your estrogen is high? What if you get rebound? I also believe nolva increases estrogen because it blocks receptors which are needed to regulate lh/test levels.

The only thing you do is to prevent gyno while on nolva.


And isn't it the opposite? Nolva is old school..

 

[Spurfy]

But what he said doesn't make any sense. An ai is to control estrogen nolva is not. So what benefit do you have by using nolva if your estrogen is high? What if you get rebound? I also believe nolva increases estrogen because it blocks receptors which are needed to regulate lh/test levels.

The only thing you do is to prevent gyno while on nolva.


And isn't it the opposite? Nolva is old school..

Studies show that SERMs, especially raloxifene, are vastly superior to AIs at reducing gyno. Since gyno is our "worst case scenario", obviously a SERM is the best choice for on-cycle E2 control.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Studies show that SERMs, especially raloxifene, are vastly superior to AIs at reducing gyno. Since gyno is our "worst case scenario", obviously a SERM is the best choice for on-cycle E2 control.

That is a terrible analogy. Its like saying you should use chemotherapy when you go to the beach since skin cancer is the worst case scenario...logic

 

[Chados]

Studies show that SERMs, especially raloxifene, are vastly superior to AIs at reducing gyno. Since gyno is our "worst case scenario", obviously a SERM is the best choice for on-cycle E2 control.

No it's for sure the best for gyno as far as I know but you still have to deal with rebound and high estro sides. It hits everyone differently and I can tell you having been both with low and high estro that I'd take the tits. Short term I could cover them up and long term I wouldn't be able to be an emotional wreck. Also you don't get gyno if you control estro so nolva really isn't needed on a cycle when you can use clomid. I prefer nolva though

 

[Spurfy]

No it's for sure the best for gyno as far as I know but you still have to deal with rebound and high estro sides. It hits everyone differently and I can tell you having been both with low and high estro that I'd take the tits. Short term I could cover them up and long term I wouldn't be able to be an emotional wreck. Also you don't get gyno if you control estro so nolva really isn't needed on a cycle when you can use clomid. I prefer nolva though

SERMs are dosed way too high. Effective E2 control can be had at 10 mg/day of tamoxifen, 25 mg/day clomid, or 30 mg/day torem/raloxifene. At these doses there are no side-effects.

 

[Spurfy]

That is a terrible analogy. Its like saying you should use chemotherapy when you go to the beach since skin cancer is the worst case scenario...logic

Okay. Then don't use it for E2 control.

 

[KnewB]

No it's for sure the best for gyno as far as I know but you still have to deal with rebound and high estro sides. It hits everyone differently and I can tell you having been both with low and high estro that I'd take the tits. Short term I could cover them up and long term I wouldn't be able to be an emotional wreck. Also you don't get gyno if you control estro so nolva really isn't needed on a cycle when you can use clomid. I prefer nolva though

You'd take the tits cuz short term you can cover them up lol what ��

 

[Chados]

You'd take the tits cuz short term you can cover them up lol what ��

In a potential universe where gyno only lasted for a week and high estro also if take the tits haha. Long term there's no doubt I'd rather walk around with tits then having high estro. I was kinda messing around

 

[Lacosanostra]

It's tough because there is a lot of conflicting information. (FYI I'm in your shoes right now) I suppose it's simply the nature of the beast.

My approach is to start with a sensible dosage. In my case, I was aiming for 12.5 mg EOD of Aromasin until I realized I received 25 mg capsules. So my dosing schedule changed to E3.5D with injections.

After one month, I will check E2 through blood work and adjust accordingly. In the meantime, keep on the lookout for gyno, water retention/bloating, and monitor your blood pressure daily.

I decided this was the most prudent approach to begin with, especially with an aromatizing compound like test.

Hope this helps.

 

[Chados]

SERMs are dosed way too high. Effective E2 control can be had at 10 mg/day of tamoxifen, 25 mg/day clomid, or 30 mg/day torem/raloxifene. At these doses there are no side-effects.

Sure but forget about the sides.. I'm talking about controlling estrogen and there are other reasons than gyno. You can't control estrogen with nolvadex or clomid

 

[Chados]

It's tough because there is a lot of conflicting information. (FYI I'm in your shoes right now) I suppose it's simply the nature of the beast.

My approach is to start with a sensible dosage. In my case, I was aiming for 12.5 mg EOD of Aromasin until I realized I received 25 mg capsules. So my dosing schedule changed to E3.5D with injections.

After one month, I will check E2 through blood work and adjust accordingly. In the meantime, keep on the lookout for gyno, water retention/bloating, and monitor your blood pressure daily.

I decided this was the most prudent approach to begin with, especially with an aromatizing compound like test.

Hope this helps.

It's not really that complicated. Nolva prevents gyno but your body will still have high estrogen. If you don't want high estrogen (I dont) I use an ai. I also use an ai to prevent rebound gyno during pct and aromasin is the one to go with.

 

[Lacosanostra]

It's not really that complicated. Nolva prevents gyno but your body will still have high estrogen. If you don't want high estrogen (I dont) I use an ai. I also use an ai to prevent rebound gyno during pct and aromasin is the one to go with.

I suppose the question isn't so much if an AI is necessary as much as it's AI vs SERM?

My research going into my first cycle told me that some simply keep AI/SERM on hand, but don't actually use right off the bat out of fears of crashing estro, lipids, sacrificing "gainz", etc.

 

[Chados]

I suppose the question isn't so much if an AI is necessary as much as it's AI vs SERM?

My research going into my first cycle told me that some simply keep AI/SERM on hand, but don't actually use right off the bat out of fears of crashing estro, lipids, sacrificing "gainz", etc.

Well if you go enthanate the test kicks in maybe at week 2 or 3 and there's no reason Starting the ai day one. No it won't hinder gains if you control estrogen. Crushing it is not the Same. .

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Okay. Then don't use it for E2 control.

It isn’t an E2 control, you are selectively agonising/antagonising estrogen receptors in different areas of the body, sure is a great idea to allow estrogen levels to build up uncontrolled and bring along all the unwanted sides (outside of gyno)...

 

[Spurfy]

It isn’t an E2 control, you are selectively agonising/antagonising estrogen receptors in different areas of the body, sure is a great idea to allow estrogen levels to build up uncontrolled and bring along all the unwanted sides (outside of gyno)...

They don't build-up uncontrolled. They reach an equalibrium point, and who cares what E2 levels are if E2 does nothing because "bad" E2 receptors are completely saturated? When you come off cycle E2 levels fall at a logarithmic rate, there's no such thing as "estrogen rebound" with a SERM.

E2 is crucial for muscle growth. Unless you can dial in your AI *exactly* then you're sabotaging gainzzzz.

For 99% of guys who cycle, a SERM is a better choice. The only time an AI is better is if you can get weekly bloods.

 

[Nac]

E2 is crucial for muscle growth. Unless you can dial in your AI *exactly* then you're sabotaging gainzzzz.

Gainz aside, there appears to be conflicting data on "high" e2 being potentially bad in regards to CV/arterial health. Guys who are on "trt", or blast/cruise, would be best trying to keep e2 in-range longterm by utilising an AI?

 

[Spurfy]

Gainz aside, there appears to be conflicting data on "high" e2 being potentially bad in regards to CV/arterial health. Guys who are on "trt", or blast/cruise, would be best trying to keep e2 in-range longterm by utilising an AI?

If need be, but only if getting regular blood work.

SERMs, especiallly toremifene, have very positive cardiovascular effects due to their agonism of ER-beta.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308162
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14746827 (Torem)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049948/ (Torem)

 

[Nac]

Interdasting. What would you consider a therapeutic dose of raloxifene in this context?

 

[Spurfy]

Interdasting. What would you consider a therapeutic dose of raloxifene in this context?

Same as toremifene -- 30 mg.

 

[Jaylvfts]

I started with 12.5 ED after my 2nd week on dbol amd that was too much for me .them wemt to 12.5 every other day and still too much . Now i just take it E3D when i inject the test

 

[John Smeton]

A serm is a better choice from a health perspective . Ai's lower bad cholesterol. Ive used both, and I overdid the AI making my libido and muscle gains lower. The most painful thing was my joints!!! why? i crushed estrogen

After experimenting for many many years, since 2005, a serm works best for me in preventing gyno. I have an ai just for insurance

If you cant get regular bloodwork on an ai, a few times to make sure numbers are where you want them, I wouldn't risk the sides

 

[Chados]

If need be, but only if getting regular blood work.

SERMs, especiallly toremifene, have very positive cardiovascular effects due to their agonism of ER-beta.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308162
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14746827 (Torem)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049948/ (Torem)

Well if the debate is wether you should use something with no symptoms then no. To control estrogen is a completly different topic. There's not one person on this site that won't have an overload of estrogen on the right cycle. I go extremly low on an ai because I need very little.

 

[John Smeton]

Well if the debate is wether you should use something with no symptoms then no. To control estrogen is a completly different topic. There's not one person on this site that won't have an overload of estrogen on the right cycle. I go extremly low on an ai because I need very little.

That might be a wise choice. maybe a very small dose e3d or eod.

Obviously a lot of it depends on dose.

 

[Chados]

That might be a wise choice. maybe a very small dose e3d or eod.

Obviously a lot of it depends on dose.

Absolutely. It's hard to have perfect control but if I feel no sensitiviy in the gyno area and I don't end up with a ton of pimples im alright but not everyone reacts the same so to get bloods is a perfect way to be as healthy as possible. It really sucks ending up with high or low estro and have no idea why you're feeling sad or tired.

 

[BloodManor]

Subbed

 

[Kratom267]

What has been everyone's experience with DMZ? Most research info says "It does not convert to estrogen and there is little to none water retention, etc"
For all the DMZ users out there, did you use an AI on cycle?

 

[pureburl]

What has been everyone's experience with DMZ? Most research info says "It does not convert to estrogen and there is little to none water retention, etc"
For all the DMZ users out there, did you use an AI on cycle?

Well if you're taking it with test which you should be then I'd say yes, take an ai

 

[John Smeton]

You know my favorite AI of all time is 6-oxo bc the baylor universities studies PA did with it showing it lowered estrogen pretty good and didn't crush it like something like letro. 300 mgs is ideal, although 200 would probably work eod or 300 e3d, or even 100 every day, etc. That and you know its good stuff. First AI I used in 2004 lol didnt crush estrogen both time. ATD crushed my estrogen rock bottom, major sides, sex drive, tired, and worst of all killed my joints, aches etc three times I used it

 

[Bintherduntht]

But what he said doesn't make any sense. An ai is to control estrogen nolva is not. So what benefit do you have by using nolva if your estrogen is high? What if you get rebound? I also believe nolva increases estrogen because it blocks receptors which are needed to regulate lh/test levels.

The only thing you do is to prevent gyno while on nolva.


And isn't it the opposite? Nolva is old school..

From my knowledge, it only increases estro in places that don't affect the typical bodybuilder. Or doesn't really increase it at all.

I remember reading that it does increase estro, but in "good places"

I know I sound retarded lol.

I know for a fact it helps lower bad cholesterol!

I've always used just nolva for all my cycles. That's just me though

 

[Bintherduntht]

What has been everyone's experience with DMZ? Most research info says "It does not convert to estrogen and there is little to none water retention, etc"
For all the DMZ users out there, did you use an AI on cycle?

I had no estro problems on dmz

 

[christ83189]

What has been everyone's experience with DMZ? Most research info says "It does not convert to estrogen and there is little to none water retention, etc"
For all the DMZ users out there, did you use an AI on cycle?

I had no issues with dmz at all except lethargy. That stuff blew me up and leaned me out. Strength went through the roof.