SARM cycling strategy

mrhappyoz

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I’m nearly 5 weeks into a SARM cycle, with really great results and no negatives so far:

YK-11, 5mg x 2 BID (0.5mL each)
RAD-140 20mg x 1 (1mL each)
Aromasin 12.5mg x 1 (0.5mL each)

My original plan for off-cycle was:
4 weeks PCT
Clomid
Nolvadex

All fairly standard stuff, so far. I was thinking that there may be some logic in switching “levers” during the off-cycle, ie. adding a secretagogue like MK-677 or similar and then switching back to on-cycle.

Has anyone tried this before, or can see something stupid about this approach?
 

user567

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Mk677 is not going to do much unless you run it straight for 4-6 months
 
mrhappyoz

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Why are you using aromasin?
Good question. It’s because YK-11 is not well documented in the published literature. When I looked at the structure of it, I see what appears to be a steroid backbone. It looks like a DHT derivative with a bolt-on myostatin inhibitor effect.

IMG_5172.JPG


Given the amount of conflicting information in the anecdotal space, I err on the side of caution. I like boobs, when attached to other people. :)
 
NoAddedHmones

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Good question. It’s because YK-11 is not well documented in the published literature. When I looked at the structure of it, I see what appears to be a steroid backbone. It looks like a DHT derivative with a bolt-on myostatin inhibitor effect.

View attachment 161319

Given the amount of conflicting information in the anecdotal space, I err on the side of caution. I like boobs, when attached to other people. :)
Haha wut?
 
Giovannuzzo

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Can you log your cycle? I want do a similar cycle but I'm very undecided (cut/recomp)
 
mrhappyoz

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Okay, but why are you using an AI?
Because I’d like my titties to remain masculine. :)

Literature suggests this -

(I can’t link yet)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2943941/

Online forums suggest the opposite. When in conflict, I go with the literature and/or safest option.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Because I’d like my titties to remain masculine. :)

Literature suggests this -

(I can’t link yet)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2943941/

Online forums suggest the opposite. When in conflict, I go with the literature and/or safest option.
How does that study extrapolate in the slightest to your current circumstances, let alone an in-vivo model? What's being converted to estrogen when you T is tanked from the SARM and no base?
 
mrhappyoz

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How does that study extrapolate in the slightest to your current circumstances, let alone an in-vivo model? What's being converted to estrogen when you T is tanked from the SARM and no base?
What makes you think I have no base? I just haven’t mentioned it. :)
 
mrhappyoz

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Can you log your cycle? I want do a similar cycle but I'm very undecided (cut/recomp)
Well I’m 5 weeks in, but I have a huge amount of data collected and photos.

Eating at maintenance levels and training as my body has signalled for me to behave yielded significant gains.

(I can’t post links yet)

Photos - start from the image marked as baseline.
imgur.com/gallery/eNMlA

Weight charts -
imgur.com/a/cWpkq

Gains were mostly dry - I’d guess at 4:1 ratio of lean mass to fat, before the recomp.

Training levels >2 hours per day, 7 days. No rest day for 4 weeks. My resting heart rate was climbing all month and when I finally took a rest day, it dropped again. My normal resting heart rate is 58, but is elevated by my supplements and activities-

imgur.com/a/EF0o7

Comments -
Loving it. I would do this 365 days a year if it was possible. Gains would have been even higher if I had eaten more, but I’d rather not have huge bulk / cut cycles. I’m more than happy with the results, so far. No negatives.
 
mrhappyoz

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Oh and to clarify, cycle started 1st of Feb. The January gains are diet changes, only.
 
mrhappyoz

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Thumbs up broski
Wow. It’s actually just occurred to me that by stacking YK-11 with RAD-140, I probably didn’t need the standard test base, as if YK-11 truly is a DHT derivative, it should fill that requirement anyway?

This may explain why it stacks so well? :)
 
Nac

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What makes you think I have no base? I just haven’t mentioned it. :)
You mentioned the AI youre using, but not the "test base"? Looks a bit like youre backpeddling lol but meh wateva
 
mrhappyoz

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You mentioned the AI youre using, but not the "test base"? Looks a bit like youre backpeddling lol but meh wateva
Here, to put this to bed once and for all, here’s another thread from a few days ago, where I was talking about it.

anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/301041-trt-tribulis-interesting.html#post5961090

Can we get back on topic now please? :)
 
mrhappyoz

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Soooo... Tribulus is your test base?
Oh for ****s sake, already..

DHEA - 250mg
4-DHEA - 800mg
Tribulus Terrestris - 6g
Fenugreek - 1250mg
D-Aspartic Acid and a whole bunch of the other usual suspects.

IMG_5192.JPG


Are we all happy now?
 
Nac

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Well a normal person prolly woulda mentioned in te OP that, along with a pharma AI, they were also taking 800mg of 4-dhea. Dont you think maybe that was slightly kinda pertinent and relevant to your exchange with noaddedhmones? Instead of all that other guff you waffled on about?
 
mrhappyoz

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Well a normal person prolly woulda mentioned in te OP that, along with a pharma AI, they were also taking 800mg of 4-dhea. Dont you think maybe that was slightly kinda pertinent and relevant to your exchange with noaddedhmones? Instead of all that other guff you waffled on about?
“Woulda coulda shoulda..” sigh.

Lesson learned - I honestly didn’t think anyone would want to talk about that, as it wasn’t the focus of the OP. All in all, I’m taking about 30 pills a day, plus 3 shakers full of protein + various other powders. These all have functions for anti-inflammatory effects, anti-ageing, nutritional support and various protein synthesis hacks.

I’m more than happy to chat about any/all of that, but didn’t want to divert attention away from my primary question.

Back to that, since everyone is here, what is everyone’s best strategy around PCT and either preventing losses or continuing to gain?

I’m looking at other mechanisms like ppar agonists and secretagogues, etc
 
Wobmarvel

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Running mk wouldn't do any harm. It shouldn't interfere with the suppression recovery. Like someone has said though it's more of a long term supplement. I would also add that it makes you very hungry so can psychologically interfere with staying lean. I wouldn't run any other sarm throughout or even immediately after pct. Not even ostarine. "off" really needs to mean "off". The reason why people are questioning your test base is because if you were on trt for example you could pretty much do whatever you like because suppression would not be an issue.
 
mrhappyoz

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Running mk wouldn't do any harm. It shouldn't interfere with the suppression recovery. Like someone has said though it's more of a long term supplement. I would also add that it makes you very hungry so can psychologically interfere with staying lean. I wouldn't run any other sarm throughout or even immediately after pct. Not even ostarine. "off" really needs to mean "off". The reason why people are questioning your test base is because if you were on trt for example you could pretty much do whatever you like because suppression would not be an issue.
Thanks! There seems to be so much conflicting information out there for the best PCT strategies. I’m still weighing up Mk-677, as poking ghrelin is likely to make me an unhappy camper all day.

I’ve read suggestions about using Osta + cardarine, aromasin and the usual clomid/nolvadex combo, such as here:
evolutionary.org/sarms-for-the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy

Where they claim osta is non-suppressive, but that seems unlikely to me?

Running the AI while on-cycle would potentially change the ballgame a little and I am now seriously scratching my head about the implications of YK-11 being built on a DHT-like backbone.

..It’s a fun area to research, as the existing literature is weak.
 
Wobmarvel

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Thanks! There seems to be so much conflicting information out there for the best PCT strategies. I’m still weighing up Mk-677, as poking ghrelin is likely to make me an unhappy camper all day.

I’ve read suggestions about using Osta + cardarine, aromasin and the usual clomid/nolvadex combo, such as here:
evolutionary.org/sarms-for-the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy

Where they claim osta is non-suppressive, but that seems unlikely to me?

Running the AI while on-cycle would potentially change the ballgame a little and I am now seriously scratching my head about the implications of YK-11 being built on a DHT-like backbone.

..It’s a fun area to research, as the existing literature is weak.
I think the logic with ostarine is that it's so "mild" that if you run a dose of 5mg or less during pct it will help you hold onto muscle and help keep your strength up. It has been shown in studies to be suppressive at as low as 3mg per day however so the logic is definitely flawed. You would probably be better running it during a cut over many months at a low dose whilst taking supps that boost natural test as this way in theory when you start taking it you are already at relatively high natural test levels. To take it when you are already suppressed from a cycle I believe would seriously go against the grain of your pct protocol even if serms were being utilised.
 

jdm23

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I just got bloodwork back on ostarine and it is definitely suppressive. I went from 397-143 in 6 weeks. No other effects on kidney, liver, or heart markers though. But as wobmarvel said it's been shown to be suppressive at very low doses and would therefore be counterproductive. Imho lol
 
jameschoi

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I just got bloodwork back on ostarine and it is definitely suppressive. I went from 397-143 in 6 weeks. No other effects on kidney, liver, or heart markers though. But as wobmarvel said it's been shown to be suppressive at very low doses and would therefore be counterproductive. Imho lol
What are your symptoms. Lethargic? How do you feel in the gym.
 
Wobmarvel

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The thing about low test is that it's not always obviously noticeable. Some men in their middle age and beyond live with low test for years and don't even know it. They still have sex, maybe feel generally tired but put it down to age. Unless your test is virtually zero then it's not always obvious. I have heard many more horror stories about guys who pound AIs due to the fear of gyno or simply thinking that less estrogen will create more test and alpha male feelings etc. They don't realise that it's estrogen which plays a huge part in sex drive and muscle building. If you crash your estrogen you feel a million times worse than you do with low test imo.
 
Wobmarvel

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That is definitely interesting. So you have been taking 12.5 mg aromasin per day for 5 weeks?
 
mrhappyoz

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That is definitely interesting. So you have been taking 12.5 mg aromasin per day for 5 weeks?
So, looking at this, apparently Ostarine only starts suppressing after 4 weeks @ <25mg.

This looks like a viable strategy:

Taper off RAD+YK over the last week. Keep the AI running.

Get blood work.

Add Osta and GW w/nolvadex and clomid. Run as PCT for 4 weeks, while reducing the AI gradually over that time.

Get blood work.

If all is well, restart cycle.

Seems like it would be worth doing it just for the data, if nothing else?
 
Wobmarvel

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It's always fun to experiment. What I would say though is that ostarine does not show suppression under 4 weeks but that's based on someone who hasn't been running a cycle, who isn't already suppressed taking ostarine and nothing else for 4 weeks. If you are already heavily suppressed then that's a completely different story. Let's say that over a 4 week period osta will keep natural test axactly where it is then start suppressing then if you try using it as part of pct then it will seriously affect your recovery. There have been no tests done on whether or not osta will affect serms activity during pct.
 
Wobmarvel

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Very interesting. Kind of need two controls, one with the clomid only and one with osta only to see the true effects. And both the controls need to be you because everything acts slightly different in other people.
 
mrhappyoz

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Check out my thread on the topic. I did low dose Ostarine coming off LGD cycle
Thank you for sharing this! :)

So, how well did it work as far as preventing back-sliding / muscle loss?
 
Meatballs

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Oh for ****s sake, already..

DHEA - 250mg
4-DHEA - 800mg
Tribulus Terrestris - 6g
Fenugreek - 1250mg
D-Aspartic Acid and a whole bunch of the other usual suspects.

View attachment 161386

Are we all happy now?
I’m so confused because Tribulus does absolutely nothing, why do guys bother with it?
 
mrhappyoz

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I’m so confused because Tribulus does absolutely nothing, why do guys bother with it?
I’ve read a few studies. Tribulus doesn’t raise T levels directly. It helps the conversion efficiency.

Additionally, the studies where it didn’t work, such as with the Australian footballers in 2014, they under-dosed them by >10x. :)

It also has a nice anti-inflammatory effect and is a mild analgesic. In higher doses, it inhibits gluconeogenesis, so is helpful for muscle tissue sparing during cutting.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931200/
 

user567

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Thank you for sharing this! :)

So, how well did it work as far as preventing back-sliding / muscle loss?
Seemed to do well but I dont get that much out of LGD. 4-5 pounds if Im lucky. I would say I kept most if not all of it but when your talking a few pounds its hard to say. I will say this if I have Osta laying around I will use it in 5mg in PCT every time.
 

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