My second cycle

[Skeptik]

A lot of pills

 

[LeanEngineer]

Are you logging this cycle or just sharing what you're currently running?

 

[Skeptik]

Are you logging this cycle or just sharing what you're currently running?

Logging it

 

[Skeptik]

So, took 2 furuza pills equal 100mg plus 100mg 7oxo and 200mg transdermal 11oxo before my workout, five hours later took 2 pills furuza plus 100 mg 7oxo later I will take 100 11oxo pill huh too much pills.
Workout was biceps back and forearms(I will call it pull day later). Tomorrow I will post my diet plan. Here we go again

 

[Skeptik]

Here is my blood work, it's the same as one on the end of my first cycle. There you can see my before and after blood work. In the end of the cycle I'm posting bw too.
And picture of myself

 

[AntM1564]

Where's the SERM?

 

[Skeptik]

Where's the SERM?

Nowhere

 

[AntM1564]

Nowhere

So you started a cycle without proper PCT on hand, not smart.

 

[AntM1564]

Nowhere

So you started a cycle without proper PCT on hand, not smart.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Lol at nowhere. Un****ingbelievable

 

[Skeptik]

So you started a cycle without proper PCT on hand, not smart.

I did the first one, with blood work and ended with more test than before . If I'm taking mild compounds I think I don't need them

 

[Skeptik]

Lol at nowhere. Un****ingbelievable

Lol

 

[Chados]

I did the first one, with blood work and ended with more test than before . If I'm taking mild compounds I think I don't need them

Haha your name really adds up with your philosophy

 

[Skeptik]

Haha your name really adds up with your philosophy

I mean we'll see right if I'm wrong, keep on mocking, let me become that dude on forum "everybody told him to use serms"
They told me for first cycle and I didn't use them, and ended up with higher testosterone levels than before cycle

 

[Chados]

I mean we'll see right if I'm wrong, keep on mocking, let me become that dude on forum "everybody told him to use serms"
They told me for first cycle and I didn't use them, and ended up with higher testosterone levels than before cycle

Dude listen. Don't take what I said to heart the fact is that you're arguing against something that's been proven thousands of times. Steroids = side effects and you are absolutely right that the body can start producing again. Problem is that one time it won't and it's individual. The other thing that's just as obvious is the cortisol problems after a cycle making it impossible to keep gains. You can be sceptical but I think it's worth listening to people who've done way more cycles and some even ended up on trt. I am not trying to make you look like an idiot (can't speak for others) I am just trying to make you realize that you don't have a clue which is fine. I didn't In the beginning and I made my mistakes. so from one fool to another, think one more time before you end up hurting yourself.

 

[Skeptik]

So did triceps, shoulder and chest today. Feeling energetic a little, probably excitement. My calorie intake will be 2000—2500
Lower carbs higher fat intake. I'm training legs biceps back forearms than chest shoulders and triceps another day, Sunday is rest day. I will up a cardio a little bit.

 

[Skeptik]

Tomorrow I will try to get clomid or nolva, so we'll see.

 

[The Express 42]

This is the same fool who just got off 11kt and didn’t use a serm

 

[210LBS]

This is the same fool who just got off 11kt and didn’t use a serm

I don't really buy the premise that you need a SERM for 11-KT. This forum has clearly overblown the suppression of that compound (if there is any). His test levels actually increased after 11-KT, which may be more common than people think. If the main purpose is lower cortisol then lower cortisol could increase test.

I've never used Furuza but from what I've read it is extremely mild and some people don't use a SERM at low doses, but now you're combining compounds and not taking enough time between cycles to fully recover. Personally, I would have either used a SERM for this cycle or at least taken more time off in between cycles.

 

[Chados]

I don't really buy the premise that you need a SERM for 11-KT. This forum has clearly overblown the suppression of that compound (if there is any). His test levels actually increased after 11-KT, which may be more common than people think. If the main purpose is lower cortisol then lower cortisol could increase test.

I've never used Furuza but from what I've read it is extremely mild and some people don't use a SERM at low doses, but now you're combining compounds and not taking enough time between cycles to fully recover. Personally, I would have either used a SERM for this cycle or at least taken more time off in between cycles.

Yes but we're all different. I mean you want blood test to know right? So you skip nolva and clomid and you got nothing if you're supressed. There's nothing that says go 40 mg nolva , maybe you can go 10 even. Point is more to make sure you have it no matter what you run just so you can keep your gains cause order it during pct might be a bit late. I don't know this compound well enough and I'm also on the more skeptik side to how much we actually get supresses from certain things but I would always keep it at home. You don't have to be supressed the first time but you could the second.


Also did this guy do blood test at the right time to know?

 

[210LBS]

Yes but we're all different. I mean you want blood test to know right? So you skip nolva and clomid and you got nothing if you're supressed. There's nothing that says go 40 mg nolva , maybe you can go 10 even. Point is more to make sure you have it no matter what you run just so you can keep your gains cause order it during pct might be a bit late. I don't know this compound well enough and I'm also on the more skeptik side to how much we actually get supresses from certain things but I would always keep it at home. You don't have to be supressed the first time but you could the second.


Also did this guy do blood test at the right time to know?

I understand what you're saying. I agree I would at least have it on hand as well. I don't really know enough about this compound either, but I'm sure it has to be stronger than 11-KT. I just don't think it's fair to immediately criticize people for not using a SERM in PCT for every single compound - specifically regarding 11-KT.

 

[Chados]

I understand what you're saying. I agree I would at least have it on hand as well. I don't really know enough about this compound either, but I'm sure it has to be stronger than 11-KT. I just don't think it's fair to immediately criticize people for not using a SERM in PCT for every single compound - specifically regarding 11-KT.

People jump on conclusions fast because it's a rule on forums like this to be an expert and follow a routine but there's always new compounds we dont know about. I've been sort of hyping ostarine unintentionally during pct because I am more on the side that it works than that the potential supression will outwork clomid and nolva, I tend to believe it's the other way around and I'm gonna run it to see for myself.

I think the main problem with this guy and again no offense we've all been there. He doesn't seem to understand how steroids and pct work and might be considered a bit reckless so whatever he chose to do is up to him but we can chose wether to help or to make fun of the person.

 

[210LBS]

People jump on conclusions fast because it's a rule on forums like this to be an expert and follow a routine but there's always new compounds we dont know about. I've been sort of hyping ostarine unintentionally during pct because I am more on the side that it works than that the potential supression will outwork clomid and nolva, I tend to believe it's the other way around and I'm gonna run it to see for myself.

I think the main problem with this guy and again no offense we've all been there. He doesn't seem to understand how steroids and pct work and might be considered a bit reckless so whatever he chose to do is up to him but we can chose wether to help or to make fun of the person.

I understand. 11-OXO was used by people in PCT too for cortisol, but then some people thought that if they used too much of it then it might cause some suppression. Now people are taking it to the point where if they run 11-OXO or 11-KT solo they need to run a SERM following it? Eh... I am not saying people shouldn't use SERMs, but every compound is different. If I go on vacation and binge on alcohol and trans fats for the weekend I am not going to come back and run a SERM to try to boost my testosterone levels back up.

The one good thing I will say about OP is that he is getting blood work done. But I don't know how suppressive Furuza is going to be, so if he gets shutdown and doesn't have a SERM, then it can be very problematic.

 

[Chados]

I understand. 11-OXO was used by people in PCT too for cortisol, but then some people thought that if they used too much of it then it might cause some suppression. Now people are taking it to the point where if they run 11-OXO or 11-KT solo they need to run a SERM following it? Eh... I am not saying people shouldn't use SERMs, but every compound is different. If I go on vacation and binge on alcohol and trans fats for the weekend I am not going to come back and run a SERM to try to boost my testosterone levels back up.

The one good thing I will say about OP is that he is getting blood work done. But I don't know how suppressive Furuza is going to be, so if he gets shutdown and doesn't have a SERM, then it can be very problematic.

I recognize the sames but I don't know much about them. Interesting the cortisol thing though.. need to look that up

 

[Cgkone]

I'd like a log or two with some unconventional techniques.

Chados I'm thinking 5mg of osta in pct wouldn't be that bad at all.
I wouldn't do it....but it might be just fine.

OP is planning on logging this for us so I'm excited about the results of a recovery no SERM

I may run EQ all the way till July
At 450 mg 250 test 5iuGH
Then blast the EQ 900 mg for 2 months max out all lifts
That's 8 months of EQ
1 pint of blood every 7 weeks and bloods every 4 weeks

But variety is cool
Plus I like the experimental aspect

Yes SERM is advised
OP knows this.
OP is a grown up

I'm in for the end results

 

[Chados]

I'd like a log or two with some unconventional techniques.

Chados I'm thinking 5mg of osta in pct wouldn't be that bad at all.
I wouldn't do it....but it might be just fine.

OP is planning on logging this for us so I'm excited about the results of a recovery no SERM

I may run EQ all the way till July
At 450 mg 250 test 5iuGH
Then blast the EQ 900 mg for 2 months max out all lifts
That's 8 months of EQ
1 pint of blood every 7 weeks and bloods every 4 weeks

But variety is cool
Plus I like the experimental aspect

Yes SERM is advised
OP knows this.
OP is a grown up

I'm in for the end results

Its recommend during pct I think 5-15mg and this is the company saying that. The internet says 25mg. This osta should not exceed more than 4 weeks due to supression. Now people say yeah the internet says.. Well look at this forum, epistane might say take 3 pills and we take 6. Anyways my plan is to go all in at 25 and besides that supression might occur I think since I've ran quite a few cycles I will know for sure wether it helped my recovery and keeping the gains. Not sure I've seen anyone going over 800 on eq and for that long, you're logging it?

 

[MrKleen73]

I mean we'll see right if I'm wrong, keep on mocking, let me become that dude on forum "everybody told him to use serms"
They told me for first cycle and I didn't use them, and ended up with higher testosterone levels than before cycle

The problem here is that you are already wrong. Proof is in your last cycle blood work which apparently nobody wanted to do a conversion on to see how the two measurements compared to one another... I am gonna break it down for ya.

Your pre-cycle bloods on your first cycle were 12.5nmol/l when you convert that to ng/ml it is 5.2ng/l
Your post cycle bloods were 3.81ng/ml. When you convert that to nmol/l it is 9.35.

So either way you look at it your Testosterone dropped over 3 units of measurement from 12.5nmol/l to 9.35nmol/l
or 1.4ng/l going from 5.2ng/l down to 3.81ng/l from your last cycle.

That was using a relatively mild cycle. This one is going to be bigger and stronger. Now you do not NEED a PCT, but you could very well lose a good bit of your gains without one on this cycle.

Either way though I felt like I was responsbile to let you know that your bloodwork was not as positive as you originally thought and that you should possibly make some changes to your planning regarding your recovery.

 

[Cgkone]

Its recommend during pct I think 5-15mg and this is the company saying that. The internet says 25mg. This osta should not exceed more than 4 weeks due to supression. Now people say yeah the internet says.. Well look at this forum, epistane might say take 3 pills and we take 6. Anyways my plan is to go all in at 25 and besides that supression might occur I think since I've ran quite a few cycles I will know for sure wether it helped my recovery and keeping the gains. Not sure I've seen anyone going over 800 on eq and for that long, you're logging it?

450 mg for 6 months 900 for 2 months total of 8 months. I'm only really interested in maybe logging the two months where I max out on lifts but I'll constantly report my blood work every 4 weeks. I've been on EQ 300 mg for about a month-and-a-half. I just started 450 milligrams today going to stay that way until July. The slow and steady gains of EQ is what makes me want to stay on for that long with a blast at the end of reward myself

 

[Cgkone]

Just experimenting that's all

 

[MrKleen73]

Its recommend during pct I think 5-15mg and this is the company saying that. The internet says 25mg. This osta should not exceed more than 4 weeks due to supression. Now people say yeah the internet says.. Well look at this forum, epistane might say take 3 pills and we take 6. Anyways my plan is to go all in at 25 and besides that supression might occur I think since I've ran quite a few cycles I will know for sure wether it helped my recovery and keeping the gains. Not sure I've seen anyone going over 800 on eq and for that long, you're logging it?

Trust me no one is taking 6 15mg epistane from legit source and feeling good. Hell running 30mg of legit stuff is pretty damn intense. I can promise I have used a few of the big name guys epi and dmz products around here over the last several years and most of them are underdosed by a good margin. I would say close to half of what is on the label.

 

[Chados]

Trust me no one is taking 6 15mg epistane from legit source and feeling good. Hell running 30mg of legit stuff is pretty damn intense. I can promise I have used a few of the big name guys epi and dmz products around here over the last several years and most of them are underdosed by a good margin. I would say close to half of what is on the label.

I wasn't talking about epistane at first. Ostarine 5-15mg that is.

 

[Chados]

Just experimenting that's all

Yeah I like eq better than most steroids.

 

[Cgkone]

Yeah I like eq better than most steroids.

I'm actually in love with it right now haha
I think low dose paired with GH for 6 months just may magic.

 

[Chados]

I'm actually in love with it right now haha
I think low dose paired with GH for 6 months just may magic.

Haha well it'll be fun to see how the eq works for that long. I wish I could do this with primo but it's way too expensive

 

[Skeptik]

So guys here it is I did first cycle and you can see blood work, I will do another one without serm(I can get it) point is it's illegal, I have problems with law(was reckless with substances) I experiment whit chemicals, f$":k it, I know it's not healthy, now I want to se stuff with steroids, don't get me wrong I'm not junkie or something, but before I started whit anything I red a lot as before with uppers downers and hallucinogens, it was few years ago, I started lifting running and idea popped in my head"try steroids". I read everything I could find plus YouTube (recommended 44onswole, best channel about PEDs). And than I found this forum, I saw a lot of guys asking about serms (they are noobs like I am), so if they are in situation like I am and don't want to risk with serms(legality problems) but can get prohormones, oh why can't I be the guy with guidance with f":';=+g proof that it is safe to go without serms or vice versa. It's not problem I will get serms just in case. About 20ish days I will measure test and e just to see how it goes. I thought what I do is the point of forums.
My philosophy followed by the proof(blood work). So please guys don't judge so much

 

[Skeptik]

Yes but we're all different. I mean you want blood test to know right? So you skip nolva and clomid and you got nothing if you're supressed. There's nothing that says go 40 mg nolva , maybe you can go 10 even. Point is more to make sure you have it no matter what you run just so you can keep your gains cause order it during pct might be a bit late. I don't know this compound well enough and I'm also on the more skeptik side to how much we actually get supresses from certain things but I would always keep it at home. You don't have to be supressed the first time but you could the second.


Also did this guy do blood test at the right time to know?

That's why I do blood work

 

[Skeptik]

The problem here is that you are already wrong. Proof is in your last cycle blood work which apparently nobody wanted to do a conversion on to see how the two measurements compared to one another... I am gonna break it down for ya.

Your pre-cycle bloods on your first cycle were 12.5nmol/l when you convert that to ng/ml it is 5.2ng/l
Your post cycle bloods were 3.81ng/ml. When you convert that to nmol/l it is 9.35.

So either way you look at it your Testosterone dropped over 3 units of measurement from 12.5nmol/l to 9.35nmol/l
or 1.4ng/l going from 5.2ng/l down to 3.81ng/l from your last cycle.

That was using a relatively mild cycle. This one is going to be bigger and stronger. Now you do not NEED a PCT, but you could very well lose a good bit of your gains without one on this cycle.

Either way though I felt like I was responsbile to let you know that your bloodwork was not as positive as you originally thought and that you should possibly make some changes to your planning regarding your recovery.

I think you did it wrong

 

[MrKleen73]

I think you did it wrong

I used a conversion calculator made for the conversion of nmol/l to ng/l. and visa versa. Shouldn't be wrong, you just put how many nmol/l and it spits out the answer, but I don't know the actual math. I will see if I can find another one specific to testosterone but you wouldn't think that would make a difference on the conversion of the measurements. Who knows...

 

[Skeptik]

I used a conversion calculator made for the conversion of nmol/l to ng/l. and visa versa. Shouldn't be wrong, you just put how many nmol/l and it spits out the answer, but I don't know the actual math. I will see if I can find another one specific to testosterone but you wouldn't think that would make a difference on the conversion of the measurements. Who knows...

In us measure 3.81 is381 us measure of test. Convert that to nmol it 13.1 it's 0.6 more than my first measure. First time my estradiol was low now it's in normal range

 

[Skeptik]

I used a conversion calculator made for the conversion of nmol/l to ng/l. and visa versa. Shouldn't be wrong, you just put how many nmol/l and it spits out the answer, but I don't know the actual math. I will see if I can find another one specific to testosterone but you wouldn't think that would make a difference on the conversion of the measurements. Who knows...

Ng|ml not l, measures are in ml in EU in USA in dl my measurements are 3.81 ng|ml not ng|L it is 381 ng|dl (Us measure), before it was lower

 

[MrKleen73]

I think you did it wrong

You are right, either there is a difference in the way testotserone is converted, or that other calculator had a mathematical error in the formula or something.

According to this conversion calculator http://unitslab.com/node/136 you are right that your testosterone went up.
It shows 3.81ng/l as being 13.2nmol/l so up .7nmol.

My apologies Sir!

That still does not change my opinion that a SERM if probably a good idea here, but if legality is the issue and you are also concerned that ingesting something illegal might lead you back down a road of using other illegal things then definitely avoid it.

As far as the 11-XT it shouldn't have been suppressive if not taken at very high doses regardless. Between that and it lowering cortisol I can see where an increase there could happen. That is not a likely scenario in this situation. Different products that are known to be suppressive.

Hell since you can't run a SERM I would contemplate some 11XT or 7DHEA or something else to help with cortisol response to lower testosterone after a cycle. If you can manage that aspect which is what causes the most muscle loss in PCT then you will more than likely be able to recover enough midway through PT to stop the cortisol control and perhaps skip out on losing as much as you would if you recovered more quickly WHICH you definitely would with a SERM. So there is a bit of damage control for you if you don't want to run a SERM, and I respect the reason why you feel uncomfortable doing so.

Also people didn't use SERMS back in the day to kick start their HPTA they just lost half the weight they gained then waited for 4-6 months to run another cycle. Sure they didn't keep all of their gains but they still made faster progress than not using at all even with whatever they lost post cycle.

 

[Cgkone]

Exactly
My OG partner is 62 getting ready for a show and can't believe how much stuff we have now
.
He loves mast p

 

[Skeptik]

Thanks dude, I think you didn't red my earlier post I will get serm just in case 20ish days or so I will measure my test and estradiol just to see. Listen I was cought with few substances(forbidden ones), and I have police record. I'm not afraid of popping serms, I'm scared of getting cought with them. I can get them through the guy who nows the guy(my ex pal, mister I can get you whatever you want).
And drugs haha I loved them, it was my decision to go and experiment with them, not abuse, now I'm willing to do same with Peds

 

[Skeptik]

Exactly
My OG partner is 62 getting ready for a show and can't believe how much stuff we have now
.
He loves mast p

Sorry, I don't understand what are you saying

 

[Cgkone]

Sorry, I don't understand what are you saying

Sorry I was just commenting about back in the day people didn't use SERMs.
Sorry off topic

 

[MrKleen73]

Thanks dude, I think you didn't red my earlier post I will get serm just in case 20ish days or so I will measure my test and estradiol just to see. Listen I was cought with few substances(forbidden ones), and I have police record. I'm not afraid of popping serms, I'm scared of getting cought with them. I can get them through the guy who nows the guy(my ex pal, mister I can get you whatever you want).
And drugs haha I loved them, it was my decision to go and experiment with them, not abuse, now I'm willing to do same with Peds

No, I saw it but I agree with you that a SERM is not worth legal issues if you have a record. I misunderstood and thought you mentioned having an issue with drugs, ie you felt like if you had a problem with them and were worried it could transition to this... Not that the issue was simply being in possession of illegal products when you have prior history. In that case avoid it the risk of using one is higher than just not having super optimal recovery...

I also think a SERM after 21 days is kind of too little too late if you needed it. If I were not starting my PCT with a SERM then I would focus more on controlling cortisol. YOu will begin to recover regardless of if you have a SERM or not. By the 3 week mark you should be pretty much out of the danger zone regarding having really low testosterone from the cycle. At that point you will most likely be in the low end of the normal range. That will have your cortisol levels dropping, and your test should be high enough to maintain a decent amount of your gains.

Sorry, I don't understand what are you saying

He is saying his old school homie never used all of the PCT stuff. They just tapered down off the cycle and then waited longer in between cycles to make sure they were recovered. Sure they lost half of everything gained but 2 cycles of 20lb gains and keeping 10 is 20lbs of muscle you would have never had...

Obviously referring to real gear and not PH's with those gains but still it is a 2 steps forward and one step back approach and sure a SERM might increase the ratio from 10/20 to 12/20 but not having a SERM is not the end of the world. It is just not as optimal of a set up.

In your legal situation just leave it behind man. Control cortisol to minimize muscle loss and just take an over the counter PCT that lowers estrogen low enough to help drive recovery. Also I would add in some DAA, and maybe some Longjack or MACA to help free up some testosterone.

 

[210LBS]

The reality that no one here is going to want to admit is that the OP picked a good stack for a cycle without a SERM. 11-OXO + Furuza should be very mild. Not all cycles are equal. I am very interested to see how this works out for you and how the blood work comes back.

 

[Skeptik]

No, I saw it but I agree with you that a SERM is not worth legal issues if you have a record. I misunderstood and thought you mentioned having an issue with drugs, ie you felt like if you had a problem with them and were worried it could transition to this... Not that the issue was simply being in possession of illegal products when you have prior history. In that case avoid it the risk of using one is higher than just not having super optimal recovery...

I also think a SERM after 21 days is kind of too little too late if you needed it. If I were not starting my PCT with a SERM then I would focus more on controlling cortisol. YOu will begin to recover regardless of if you have a SERM or not. By the 3 week mark you should be pretty much out of the danger zone regarding having really low testosterone from the cycle. At that point you will most likely be in the low end of the normal range. That will have your cortisol levels dropping, and your test should be high enough to maintain a decent amount of your gains.




He is saying his old school homie never used all of the PCT stuff. They just tapered down off the cycle and then waited longer in between cycles to make sure they were recovered. Sure they lost half of everything gained but 2 cycles of 20lb gains and keeping 10 is 20lbs of muscle you would have never had...

Obviously referring to real gear and not PH's with those gains but still it is a 2 steps forward and one step back approach and sure a SERM might increase the ratio from 10/20 to 12/20 but not having a SERM is not the end of the world. It is just not as optimal of a set up.

In your legal situation just leave it behind man. Control cortisol to minimize muscle loss and just take an over the counter PCT that lowers estrogen low enough to help drive recovery. Also I would add in some DAA, and maybe some Longjack or MACA to help free up some testosterone.

Thanks dude, exactly what 210 ibs is saying I'm hoping of 2kg muscle gain is my maximum for this cycle, my main goal is weight loss,but will see how it goes

 

[MrKleen73]

The reality that no one here is going to want to admit is that the OP picked a good stack for a cycle without a SERM. 11-OXO + Furuza should be very mild. Not all cycles are equal. I am very interested to see how this works out for you and how the blood work comes back.

Yeah, and let's not be alarmist, the real reason why everyone thinks you must have these things on hand is because the supplement market has pushed this PCT thing way out of proportion. Pushing that the PCT is as important as the cycle... it is not where gains are concerned anyway. Now getting some sort of hormonal balance is important. However for keeping muscle, controlling cortisol is more important than getting your test levels back up super fast. Unless you crashed your HPTA or it was weak to begin with you will get up to low end of normal range in 3-4 weeks on its own. For years no such thing as a PCT... test was tapered off to avoid gyno rebound but that was about it.

Thanks dude, exactly what 210 ibs is saying I'm hoping of 2kg muscle gain is my maximum for this cycle, my main goal is weight loss,but will see how it goes

If you have the money since trying to learn something here maybe get blood work the day after the cycle stops then again @ 21 days with no SERM and that will prove your theory if already recovered decently without a SERM.

Now going the other way around I would recommend to most hormone users that they save the money on extra OCT PCT and just get a SERM, it will do more for recovery by itself than all of the OCT stuff combined and is far cheaper than the kitchen sink PCT everyone is doing now.

 

[Skeptik]

Yeah, and let's not be alarmist, the real reason why everyone thinks you must have these things on hand is because the supplement market has pushed this PCT thing way out of proportion. Pushing that the PCT is as important as the cycle... it is not where gains are concerned anyway. Now getting some sort of hormonal balance is important. However for keeping muscle, controlling cortisol is more important than getting your test levels back up super fast. Unless you crashed your HPTA or it was weak to begin with you will get up to low end of normal range in 3-4 weeks on its own. For years no such thing as a PCT... test was tapered off to avoid gyno rebound but that was about it.




If you have the money since trying to learn something here maybe get blood work the day after the cycle stops then again @ 21 days with no SERM and that will prove your theory if already recovered decently without a SERM.

Now going the other way around I would recommend to most hormone users that they save the money on extra OCT PCT and just get a SERM, it will do more for recovery by itself than all of the OCT stuff combined and is far cheaper than the kitchen sink PCT everyone is doing now.

I thought test and blood work 1 or 2 days before my end(furuza and 11oxo_oral)
Than I'm left 10 days with 7 keto dhea and low dose transdermal 11oxo. Nolvadren in my pct has cortisol reduction. After that my arranged at doctor for my complete blood test(because my thyroid levels are slightly higher(SLIGHTLY). I will pay for my hormone levels so this is the plan if my next blood test is OK. If it shows suppression I'm jumping on serms.