Should You Run Aromasin In PCT?

[210LBS]

I have heard some people say AIs can be suppressive and should be avoided during PCT, but then I read this from steroidal:

Finally, in addition to these benefits from Aromasin, it is very clear that Aromasin holds the ability to increase Testosterone levels in males as demonstrated by studies. For example, one particularly notable study selected 12 healthy young male test subjects, and were administered random Aromasin doses of 25mg and 50mg for a 10 day period, and not only was Estrogen suppressed by a significant amount (38%), but Testosterone levels in the test subjects were observed to have increased by an incredible 60%[10].

So, why not run exemestane during PCT? Say maybe 12.5 mgs twice a week or 6.25mgs three times a week? Other than the effects on lipids, what would be the downside to running aromasin as part of PCT? It seems like clomid + exemestane might be the best bet to boost test and keep gyno at bay for PCT. Am I missing something?

 

[DennisC1986]

Subbed for info

 

[Toren]

The downsides? It's a prescription drug and can have side-effects. Also, most people don't get bloodwork and usually have no idea what their actual Estrogen levels are. People only tend to know when their levels are overly elevated or suppressed.

I use exemestane during my PCT at 6.25mg 2-3 x per week depending on what point in the PCT I am at. This works for me but I have also done PCTs without an AI and have been fine as well.

Exemestane lowers E and the body compensates by trying to raise T to also bring up those low levels of E. Another reason why an AI can be beneficial during PCT is the fact that elevated levels of E can act as a negative-feedback in the production of T. High E can signal the body to slow down production of T. The degree or rate at which it does that, I'm not sure, but is certainly person-dependent.

Stacking SERMs and using high doses of those same drugs can elevate E levels very quickly. The body usually does a good job of metabolizing E but if there were pre-existing estrogen issues (prior to PCT), subsequent use of high doses of SERMs, without the concomitant use of an AI, could potentially lead to estrogen-related issues after the PCT period.

Having said all of that, overly supressing or blocking estrogen/aromatase for extended periods of time may lead to a 'rebound' of estrogen (after cessation of AI usage).

 

[Toren]

Keep in mind, the longer you manipulate your hormones, and the more drugs you choose to do so with, the longer it will take for your body to find homeostasis, and the harder it may be for it to get there. The body has a tendency over time to learn and adapt to what you are teaching it.

 

[210LBS]

Another interesting read Toren. Seems like it could be good to add in PCT... but not necessarily...

 

[Toren]

Indeed it could be beneficial but if you had a successful cycle with no E issues, and have no prior disposition to elevated estrogen or gyno, it isn't necessarily a must. Lighter cycles that indicate for mild or half-dose PCTs are probably less likely to need the assurance of an AI during the PCT period. Again, it may still have benefits though, if used properly. In "milder" scenarios, an OTC AI or even a a compound that helps to metabolize estrogen in a healthy manner (Diindolylmethane [DIM]) may be a better choice.

Honestly, bloodwork and individual trial and error will always trump bro science and even some specific human science that may only indicate towards a propensity for something based upon a small sample size.

 

[rgurleyjr]

Would be good for after pct to prevent rebound gyno....

 

[Evan Bageris]

Yes. Estrogen dominance following a cycle has more to with suppressed androgen level than the compounds you were on during a cycle. You could have a successful cycle with no E issues by stacking MethylTren with Halotestin and Superdrol. Non aromatize. I think you might have some suppression though. Aromasin is the best choice of AI’s because it increases IGF-1, will help you get your endogenous test levels back to normal and as they go up make sure they don’t convert to Estrogen. You could try DIM if you wanted to, but make sure you throw in some Chysin and flax seeds. Boron and Smilax in conjunction is overboard, I think, but you could use your PCT to put on muscle. Did I say the right thing? Just make sure you do a reasonable cycle. Most bodybuilders are pretty reasonable so I probably don’t need to remind you of that.

 

[210LBS]

Yes. Estrogen dominance following a cycle has more to with suppressed androgen level than the compounds you were on during a cycle. You could have a successful cycle with no E issues by stacking MethylTren with Halotestin and Superdrol. Non aromatize. I think you might have some suppression though. Aromasin is the best choice of AI’s because it increases IGF-1, will help you get your endogenous test levels back to normal and as they go up make sure they don’t convert to Estrogen. You could try DIM if you wanted to, but make sure you throw in some Chysin and flax seeds. Boron and Smilax in conjunction is overboard, I think, but you could use your PCT to put on muscle. Did I say the right thing? Just make sure you do a reasonable cycle. Most bodybuilders are pretty reasonable so I probably don’t need to remind you of that.

From what I've read, aromasin would be the only real viable option for an AI in PCT. I keep a bottle of letro on hand as I've heard it is strong and can knock out estrogen very quick, but it comes with stronger sides than exemestane. It's a little tempting to run it in PCT at like 6.25mgs X 3 times per week and then taper down to 2X and then 1X. But I don't know. I may play it by ear. I have some OTC AIs I may just run instead. Perhaps I'll see how I feel.

 

[210LBS]

Would be good for after pct to prevent rebound gyno....

Post PCT is when I'd like to get off the rx stuff and start moving to OTC.

 

[DennisC1986]

Post PCT is when I'd like to get off the rx stuff and start moving to OTC.

Right but exemestane is suicidal, so the idea is to run it a little bit past your pct to avoid rebound, no?

What about abieta? More specifically, I'll probably have some left over arimacare pro, what about running that into my pct, at least until it runs out?

 

[210LBS]

Right but exemestane is suicidal, so the idea is to run it a little bit past your pct to avoid rebound, no?

What about abieta? More specifically, I'll probably have some left over arimacare pro, what about running that into my pct, at least until it runs out?

Maybe you can run it a little past PCT, but like Toren said, your body is trying to find homeostasis and so how long do we really want to prolong the use of prescription drugs? Now we're talking about cycle + PCT + post PCT. I don't know enough about abieta, but I think it's very weak. I've ran inhibit e couple times and didn't feel much from it. Just my experience.

 

[Cscott622]

Shewwww.. inhibit e dried me up but killed my libido

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

The downsides? It's a prescription drug and can have side-effects. Also, most people don't get bloodwork and usually have no idea what their actual Estrogen levels are. People only tend to know when their levels are overly elevated or suppressed.

I use exemestane during my PCT at 6.25mg 2-3 x per week depending on what point in the PCT I am at. This works for me but I have also done PCTs without an AI and have been fine as well.

Exemestane lowers E and the body compensates by trying to raise T to also bring up those low levels of E. Another reason why an AI can be beneficial during PCT is the fact that elevated levels of E can act as a negative-feedback in the production of T. High E can signal the body to slow down production of T. The degree or rate at which it does that, I'm not sure, but is certainly person-dependent.

Stacking SERMs and using high doses of those same drugs can elevate E levels very quickly. The body usually does a good job of metabolizing E but if there were pre-existing estrogen issues (prior to PCT), subsequent use of high doses of SERMs, without the concomitant use of an AI, could potentially lead to estrogen-related issues after the PCT period.

Having said all of that, overly supressing or blocking estrogen/aromatase for extended periods of time may lead to a 'rebound' of estrogen (after cessation of AI usage).

would start tapering down AI while introducing a SERM once hitting pct be a smart protocol? Getting down to 0 AI dosage mid PCT, and finishing the rest with only the serm also being tapered

 

[Toren]

Right but exemestane is suicidal, so the idea is to run it a little bit past your pct to avoid rebound, no?

What about abieta? More specifically, I'll probably have some left over arimacare pro, what about running that into my pct, at least until it runs out?

Maybe you can run it a little past PCT, but like Toren said, your body is trying to find homeostasis and so how long do we really want to prolong the use of prescription drugs? Now we're talking about cycle + PCT + post PCT. I don't know enough about abieta, but I think it's very weak. I've ran inhibit e couple times and didn't feel much from it. Just my experience.

If I'm using an AI in PCT, I like to use it for a week or two beyond my SERM usage. If you've managed your estrogen properly throughout the PCT, you can likely get away without it, but using it (Exemestane) @ 6.25mg 2x weekly isn't that big of a deal. I'll usually use it @ 6.25mg 3x weekly for the first half of the PCT and then 6.25mg 2x weekly for the last 2-3 weeks. I taper my SERM and my AI throughout PCT. Some will argue this isn't necessary but I think it's best to lower blood plasma levels of both as you go. I've seen people stop PCT while using SERMs at high doses, with no taper and E control, and have issues after the fact. SERMs elevate T and E at the same time.

The idea is to keep estrogen in check, not crush it. Estrogen is just as important as Testosterone for overall health....and muscle building as well!

As far as 'rebound' goes, it can happen post PCT for a number of reasons. Using a suicidal AI like Exemestane should help to lower the "rebound-effect" of estrogen, but it does not mean you can't end up with gyno-like symptoms months after PCT.

 

[Toren]

would start tapering down AI while introducing a SERM once hitting pct be a smart protocol? Getting down to 0 AI dosage mid PCT, and finishing the rest with only the serm also being tapered

It could work but that really depends on the hormonal environment of the individual during each PCT. I prefer to stop both at the same time or run my AI just beyond the SERM by a week or two.

Trial and error and bloodwork is where things get individually fine-tuned.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

It could work but that really depends on the hormonal environment of the individual during each PCT. I prefer to stop both at the same time or run my AI just beyond the SERM by a week or two.

Trial and error and bloodwork is where things get individually fine-tuned.

In my understanding, the SERM blocks estrogen selectively on the breast tissue. If a SERM is in the estrogen receptor, there is no room for estrogen to attach to the cell. If estrogen isn't attached to a breast cell, the cell doesn't receive estrogen's signals to grow and multiply. So the elevated E levels shouldnt result in gyno as they wont be able to bind in that tissue.

Meaning once you drop the AI, even if its arimidex (non suicidal) the SERM should be doing its job to help you avoid any gyno sides...

Thats what i though regarding stopping with the AI mid PCT... because you still have that SERM there "protecting" you.

AFAIK, which I may be completely wrong here to be honest, theres a higher chance of rebound from arimidex than a serm like nolva. So the idea would be drop the arimidex while you are still using nolva, which should be binding to the brest tissue and taper the nolva to minimize rebound as well... (if using exemestane like you mention, then maybe this wouldnt matter though)

Also maybe start with an OTC AI to help keep estro in check like DIM, I3C and urtica dioica or abieta by the end of PCT + post pct just to be on the safe side, help metabolize E and manage things while the natural balance is being restored

I dont know... just some thoughts on how to make things transition as smooth as possible. What do you think?

 

[Toren]

In my understanding, the SERM blocks estrogen selectively on the breast tissue. If a SERM is in the estrogen receptor, there is no room for estrogen to attach to the cell. If estrogen isn't attached to a breast cell, the cell doesn't receive estrogen's signals to grow and multiply. So the elevated E levels shouldnt result in gyno as they wont be able to bind in that tissue.

Meaning once you drop the AI, even if its arimidex (non suicidal) the SERM should be doing its job to help you avoid any gyno sides...

Thats what i though regarding stopping with the AI mid PCT... because you still have that SERM there "protecting" you.

AFAIK, which I may be completely wrong here to be honest, theres a higher chance of rebound from arimidex than a serm like nolva. So the idea would be drop the arimidex while you are still using nolva, which should be binding to the brest tissue and taper the nolva to minimize rebound as well... (if using exemestane like you mention, then maybe this wouldnt matter though)

Also maybe start with an OTC AI to help keep estro in check like DIM, I3C and urtica dioica or abieta by the end of PCT + post pct just to be on the safe side, help metabolize E and manage things while the natural balance is being restored

I dont know... just some thoughts on how to make things transition as smooth as possible. What do you think?

The SERM will block some of the action of Estrogen at the receptor, not all of it. When you use SERMs, especially at high doses, you have some protection against the rise in Estrogen that the SERM is also causing. Your SERM may put your E at very high levels and when you end your SERM usage (and thus protection), your E levels may still be drastically elevated. Using an AI in this scenario keeps E in Check while still allowing T to rise at the same time.

As I mentioned before, if you have managed your E levels properly during cycle and PCT, your chances of rebound are less likely.

Yes, the SERM will still offer some protection if you stop AI usage prior to stopping the SERM. The hope though is that you properly managed your E and it is not elevated beyond what the body can quickly deal with after the SERM is finished. Keep in mind though that these SERMs have long half-lives and will likely be artificially raising T, and thus E, for weeks after your stop using them. Plenty of people use SERMs without an AI and are fine. Everyone is different. What I always say is if you use an AI, use it in mild doses (to start with), unless you know what you are doing or are veryifying your estrogen levels with bloodwork.

I don't recommend the use of Anastrazole for PCT purposes. Always taper your AI and SERM, I do this regardless of suicidal or non-suicidal AI, and regardless of what SERM I am using. If you properly manage your E levels throught the cycle and PCT, you could stop your AI just before, at the same time, or even after finishing your SERM. Too many factors to weigh. Without bloodwork, I err on the side of caution and run my AI just past my SERM.

If you've tapered properly and had no issues throughout, I wouldn't worry about adding in OTC AIs after the fact.

DIM and I3C are not AIs, they just help to skew the metabolism of estrogen into the healthier forms of it. They will not block the aromatase enzyme as far as I can recall. As I metioned before, DIM can be a solid addition to a PCT, even with your Rx AI or OTC AI. OTC AIs can absolutely be great for on cycle and PCT. It really just depends on the circumstances.

In the end, I think using less drugs is better. If you can PCT with a SERM and no AI and have great recovery, that's awesome. If you can PCT with a SERM and an OTC AI, great as well. Trial and error.....

 

[rgurleyjr]

Good stuff here. I will definitely run aromasin a little past pct because I have read enough stories of gyno rebound.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Aromasin definitely wouldn’t hurt during pct, but you’d want to stick to lower doses of it to avoid crushing estrogen obviously.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

The SERM will block some of the action of Estrogen at the receptor, not all of it. When you use SERMs, especially at high doses, you have some protection against the rise in Estrogen that the SERM is also causing. Your SERM may put your E at very high levels and when you end your SERM usage (and thus protection), your E levels may still be drastically elevated. Using an AI in this scenario keeps E in Check while still allowing T to rise at the same time.

As I mentioned before, if you have managed your E levels properly during cycle and PCT, your chances of rebound are less likely.

Yes, the SERM will still offer some protection if you stop AI usage prior to stopping the SERM. The hope though is that you properly managed your E and it is not elevated beyond what the body can quickly deal with after the SERM is finished. Keep in mind though that these SERMs have long half-lives and will likely be artificially raising T, and thus E, for weeks after your stop using them. Plenty of people use SERMs without an AI and are fine. Everyone is different. What I always say is if you use an AI, use it in mild doses (to start with), unless you know what you are doing or are veryifying your estrogen levels with bloodwork.

I don't recommend the use of Anastrazole for PCT purposes. Always taper your AI and SERM, I do this regardless of suicidal or non-suicidal AI, and regardless of what SERM I am using. If you properly manage your E levels throught the cycle and PCT, you could stop your AI just before, at the same time, or even after finishing your SERM. Too many factors to weigh. Without bloodwork, I air on the side of caution and run my AI just past my SERM.

If you've tapered properly and had no issues throughout, I wouldn't worry about adding in OTC AIs after the fact.

DIM and I3C are not AIs, they just help to skew the metabolism of estrogen into the healthier forms of it. They will not block the aromatase enzyme as far as I can recall. As I metioned before, DIM can be a solid addition to a PCT, even with your Rx AI or OTC AI. OTC AIs can absolutely be great for on cycle and PCT. It really just depends on the circumstances.

In the end, I think using less drugs is better. If you can PCT with a SERM and no AI and have great recovery, that's awesome. If you can PCT with a SERM and an OTC AI, great as well. Trial and error.....

Thanks! Highly appreciate the input brother.

I was not under the impression or trying to say OTC stuff had much/any action over the aromatize enzyme. Only that they work slightly as anti-estrogens even though through a different mechanism of action and could potentially be introduced somehow into a pct.

cheers

 

[DennisC1986]

Sort of off topic but not really, and I'd like to see what Toren has to say about this. If someone were to run a ralox gyno reversal protocol, this would pretty much crush estrogen, right? So does that mean for those weeks or months or however long, you won't really be building any muscle? Cause it's constantly being said on AM (even on this thread) that estrogen is just as needed for muscle building and health as testosterone

 

[rgurleyjr]

Sort of off topic but not really, and I'd like to see what Toren has to say about this. If someone were to run a ralox gyno reversal protocol, this would pretty much crush estrogen, right? So does that mean for those weeks or months or however long, you won't really be building any muscle? Cause it's constantly being said on AM (even on this thread) that estrogen is just as needed for muscle building and health as testosterone

One site said Raloxifene does not serve to reduce total Estrogen levels in the body, but merely serves to block Estrogen’s activity in select tissues like breasts. Research shows this looks to sound about right so I wouldn't worry.

 

[Toren]

Sort of off topic but not really, and I'd like to see what Toren has to say about this. If someone were to run a ralox gyno reversal protocol, this would pretty much crush estrogen, right? So does that mean for those weeks or months or however long, you won't really be building any muscle? Cause it's constantly being said on AM (even on this thread) that estrogen is just as needed for muscle building and health as testosterone

Raloxifene by itself will not crush estrogen. It should actually raise circulating levels of estrogen in the body. If that protocol includes and AI like exemestane, then yes one could potentially 'crush' their estrogen depending on their AI dose.

I would assume that as long as there is still adequate or even increased stimulation of the androgen receptor, one could still accrue new muscle tissue even in a drastically lowered state of estrogen. It would just be more difficult to gain mass because E plays a vital role in the release of GH and IGF-1. A healthy lipid profile also depends on having some available estrogen (liver).

Raloxifene lowers GH to a much lesser degree than does Tamoxifen and doesn't seem to negatively affect IGF-1 levels like Tamoxifen does, so that would make it the better choice. It's marginally better at being an ER antagonist in breast tissue versus Tamoxifen.

There is also literature out there that suggest estrogen plays a vital role in complimenting an anabolic state through various mechanisms. I can't remember the full details.

My suggested gyno reversal protocol includes a SERM (Ralox or Nolva) and light use of an AI, not heavy use. Each circumstance (level of gyno) is different though so what works for one person may not work for the next.

 

[Toren]

There is also literature out there that suggest estrogen plays a vital role in complimenting an anabolic state through various mechanisms. I can't remember the full details.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jdr/2015/916585/

http://www.basskilleronline.com/anti-estrogen-good-bad.html

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2014/02/10/jbc.M113.529990

 

[DennisC1986]

Awesome, I was kinda worried about that. Thanks

 

[210LBS]

I've also read that exemestane is slightly androgenic compared to the other AIs. On a side note, I wish someone would make a transdermal formestane product already. The orals are still being produced but not the transdermals. I wonder why Brawn discontinued their TD formestane.

 

[The Express 42]

I thought Virtus by Iron Legion was amazing but it’s been out of stock everywhere for almost a year now. Heard they’re having trouble with customs