Pro hormone Cycle Basics

[Brandon25]

Hey guys, it's been over a year since I ran a cycle of 1-andro 4-andro and epiandro, and I can't exactly remember how i handled using exemstane and how I handled pct with clomid. A couple years ago I ran an 8 week cycle of 1/4 andro and everything went smooth. Last year I ran a 8 week cycle of 1/4/epi and I thought everything went smooth, but a few months after I finished up, I noticed that i had a small bump under my nipple (about the size of a dime that was not visible but you could feel it. I went and got it checked out and it was gyno. For a month or two that area would be really sensitive but it seems to have gone back to normal as far as sensitivity is concerned, but i can still feel a small spot beneath my nipple, but like i said it's not visible at all so it doesn't bother me. During my cycles I ran 330 of 1/4 and I believe i just had exemestane on hand for emergency. For PCT I used clomid at 50/25/25/12.5/12.5. The whole gyro thing freaked me out a while, and I wanna make sure that I do things the right way this time around (because I definitely thought I did the last time). I loved the results, but don't wanna get gyro. My brother ran the same cycle and I know he didn't PCT correctly and was perfectly fine.

 

[The Express 42]

So what are your thoughts for a cycle? Sounds like you had a bit of rebound gyno. You could also low dose exemestane every 3 days on cycle. Something like 6.25mg E3D and then start Exem back up in pct. I like 6.25mg EOD and I always run it 2-3 weeks longer than my Serms to prevent rebound

 

[Toren]

Ditch the Clomiphene and substitute it with Tamoxifen (for PCT and as a possible on-cycle aid). They are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to dealing with gyno or gyno-like symptoms. Tamox does a great job of boosting T as well. Toremifene would even be a better choice than Clomiphene in this instance.

Now that you have developed a lump, there's a good chance you will always have to manage it while on cycle. A low dose of exemestane (@ 6.25mg 2-3 x per week) might be a good starting point. If you are running mostly dry compounds (as is the case with a 1/4/Epi cycle), and using a mild AI dose, and are still having these issues, elevated or out-of-range Estradiol is likely not your problem. At this point in time you have a problem with T:E being out of balance, a lack of proper competition for the ER receptor (antagonism), and thus a binding and over-expression issue. I won't even get into possible upregulation of the ER.

If you are having the above-mentioned issues, inspite of AI usage, adding in Tamox (or Ralox or Torem) at a low dose will likely keep the problem at bay or temporarily eliminate it while on cycle.

 

[Brandon25]

Thanks for the help! Sorry for the delayed response. So what would a proper on cycle and pct look like for me? exemestane 6.25 E3D while on cycle? How would my PCT look?

 

[210LBS]

Ditch the Clomiphene and substitute it with Tamoxifen (for PCT and as a possible on-cycle aid). They are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to dealing with gyno or gyno-like symptoms. Tamox does a great job of boosting T as well. Toremifene would even be a better choice than Clomiphene in this instance.

Now that you have developed a lump, there's a good chance you will always have to manage it while on cycle. A low dose of exemestane (@ 6.25mg 2-3 x per week) might be a good starting point. If you are running mostly dry compounds (as is the case with a 1/4/Epi cycle), and using a mild AI dose, and are still having these issues, elevated or out-of-range Estradiol is likely not your problem. At this point in time you have a problem with T:E being out of balance, a lack of proper competition for the ER receptor (antagonism), and thus a binding and over-expression issue. I won't even get into possible upregulation of the ER.

If you are having the above-mentioned issues, inspite of AI usage, adding in Tamox (or Ralox or Torem) at a low dose will likely keep the problem at bay or temporarily eliminate it while on cycle.

You don't think he can get away with something like formestane on cycle?

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

At this point in time you have a problem with T:E being out of balance, a lack of proper competition for the ER receptor (antagonism), and thus a binding and over-expression issue. I won't even get into possible upregulation of the ER.

I have never heard of these things you mentioned. Would you mind explaining more in depth? Or directing me somewhere i could learn more about it?

 

[Toren]

I have never heard of these things you mentioned. Would you mind explaining more in depth? Or directing me somewhere i could learn more about it?

The balance of the endocrine system within the body is incredibly complicated but the forced imbalance very simply can lead to an array of side-effects. The body likes to keep itself in a fairly narrow range of hormonal "homeostasis" and has various mechanisms (feedback loops) that seek to re-balance what has become imbalanced.

To simplify the many processes for the purpose of this discussion, when the body has too much Testosterone (T), it upregulates the conversion to Estrogen (E) to "suppress" some of the T. When we lower T, the body will seek to make more of it by increasing (aka upregulating) various hormones or enzymes that will eventually lead to an increase in T. When E becomes too low, the body will create more enzymes that convert T to E (aromatase), and so on and so forth. It's a dance and the body is always trying to maintain the same dance partners.

When this same balance is disrupted, certain hormones may play a larger role than they did before (agonism vs. antagonism) and thus create an environment whereby different cellular processess take place (to some degree). If DHT is an antagonist (enemy) of E, it will in essence "compete" with it for control of estrogen receptor sites (hormone docking stations), among other things. If we were to drastically lower DHT, for instance by taking finasteride (a 5aR inhibitor), we would then create an environment whereby we had more T (up to ~ 10%) because of a lower ability to convert to DHT, and also more E because the body will then have more T available to convert to E. This imbalance (when exagerated) can often times lead to gynecomastia because there is less male (as well as more female) hormones within the body. If E is more available, and has less competition for the estrogen receptor (ER), we then know that upregulation of cellular processes or increased expression (cellular activation/transcription) occurs, causing more "estrogen-like" processes to take place throughout the body. In essence, the ability for Estrogen to "bind" to it's receptor and activate transcriptional process has increased. Levels of enzymes like aromatse, SHBG, 17bHSD, 5aR (and many others) may all be varied to allow for the body to "check" these imbalances and try to re-gain that homeostasis.

All of the hormones within the body have a sort of syngerism with eachother - far beyond just the often-discussed T,E and DHT. There are so many hormones and enzymes within the body that there is no way to know how changing the balance will ultimately affect any one particular individual when compared to the next. This is why cycles vary so much, and the measures we take (AI/SERM/etc.) to control that balance can change drastically from person to person. Cycle guidelines are great but by no means do they make for a set-in-stone cycle.

"Steroids" are not just benign compounds that only affect muscle and bone. They affect the brain, organs, hair, our personality, cellular proliferation and apoptosis, as well as many other processes. When we change who, what, where and when, we have the answer to "why".

 

[Toren]

You don't think he can get away with something like formestane on cycle?

Sure could. It isn't quite as potent as Exemestane oral vs. oral and mg vs. mg but is a solid AI nonetheless. Formestane is also said to act as an antagonist in the conversion of T to DHT by inhibiting the 5aR enzyme. I don't believe it to likely be a strong inhibitor, though.

 

[210LBS]

Sure could. It isn't quite as potent as Exemestane oral vs. oral and mg vs. mg but is a solid AI nonetheless. Formestane is also said to act as an antagonist in the conversion of T to DHT by inhibiting the 5aR enzyme. I don't believe it to likely be a strong inhibitor, though.

Oh that's interesting! I'm learning something new from each of your posts.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

When E becomes too low, the body will create more enzymes that convert T to E (aromatase), and so on and so forth. It's a dance and the body is always trying to maintain the same dance partners.

I guess thats what you were refering in your initial post? OP possibly tanking his E with high AI dosage and creating that imbalance? Then creating a rebound scenario? Thats why you recommend low doses?

Sorry this is all a bit confusing. Im trying to make out the reason why you mentioned about this in your initial post, and how it relates to this thread/the OP.

So basically, in the end, too much AI can induce gyno just as well as too little/none?

 

[Toren]

I guess thats what you were refering in your initial post? OP possibly tanking his E with high AI dosage and creating that imbalance? Then creating a rebound scenario? Thats why you recommend low doses?

Sorry this is all a bit confusing. Im trying to make out the reason why you mentioned about this in your initial post, and how it relates to this thread/the OP.

So basically, in the end, too much AI can induce gyno just as well as too little/none?

If you are using anabolics or PCT drugs, your hormones are already out of balance from where they would normally be. In regards to the T:E balance (ratio), in an ideal world, your T and E levels would go up and down in unison. This doesn't necessarily happen though. Any type of imblance can create issues.

Killing your estrogen on cycle is not a good idea. Estrogen is just as important as Testosterone for energy, libido, lipid health, muscle growth, etc. Suppressing estrogen for long periods of time can create an environment where rebound is more likely to occur after the fact.

I would not say that too much AI can induce gyno, just that creating huge imbalances for extended periods of time, one way or the other, can increase the likelihood for issues down the road. When you crush your estrogen, your body will do things to try and bring those levels back to where they would normally be. Whether that be by increasing (upregulating) the amount of aromtase enzyme in the body or by increasing the density or sensitivity of estrogen receptors. Both of those scenarios create the potential for a faster rise in E or more aggressive binding/transcription at the receptor (cellular actions).

As far as using an AI on cycle. You can drastically lower your E yet still have issues with gyno or gyno-like symptoms. I've seen it happen before where guys are using huge doses of their AI but are still dealing with lumps - this is where you have that "binding or over-expression issue". This is when you would introduce a SERM like Tamoxifen to block some of the actions of estrogen at the receptor. My philosophy is to use light AI doses (when using aromatizing compounds) and adjust up to moderate doses if necessary. If this is not eliminating your "nipple issues", at this point in time you would add in the SERM at a mild dose and then adjust that dose upwards until negative symptoms resolve or are under control. I don't believe in using heavy doses of just one or the other. I believe light doses of both are better.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

If you are using anabolics or PCT drugs, your hormones are already out of balance from where they would normally be. In regards to the T:E balance (ratio), in an ideal world, your T and E levels would go up and down in unison. This doesn't necessarily happen though. Any type of imblance can create issues.

Killing your estrogen on cycle is not a good idea. Estrogen is just as important as Testosterone for energy, libido, lipid health, muscle growth, etc. Suppressing estrogen for long periods of time can create an environment where rebound is more likely to occur after the fact.

I would not say that too much AI can induce gyno, just that creating huge imbalances for extended periods of time, one way or the other, can increase the likelihood for issues down the road. When you crush your estrogen, your body will do things to try and bring those levels back to where they would normally be. Whether that be by increasing (upregulating) the amount of aromtase enzyme in the body or by increasing the density or sensitivity of estrogen receptors. Both of those scenarios create the potential for a faster rise in E or more aggressive binding/transcription at the receptor (cellular actions).

As far as using an AI on cycle. You can drastically lower your E yet still have issues with gyno or gyno-like symptoms. I've seen it happen before where guys are using huge doses of their AI but are still dealing with lumps - this is where you have that "binding or over-expression issue". This is when you would introduce a SERM like Tamoxifen to block some of the actions of estrogen at the receptor. My philosophy is to use light AI doses (when using aromatizing compounds) and adjust up to moderate doses if necessary. If this is not eliminating your "nipple issues", at this point in time you would add in the SERM at a mild dose and then adjust that dose upwards until negative symptoms resolve or are under control. I don't believe in using heavy doses of just one or the other. I believe light doses of both are better.

Thanks, this helped clarify a ton.

Regarding the imbalances, i once heard from an irl friend who "knows his ****" about hormones say that its these abrupt imbalances that end up causing unwanted side effects. And that if you taper things, up or down slowly, these issues can be mitigated.

Ive lost contact with him since then, otherwise i would try to ask him to go more in depth on the issue. I know its total bro science putting it like this, but i can see why his point would make sense.

 

[jameschoi]

Thanks, this helped clarify a ton.

Regarding the imbalances, i once heard from an irl friend who "knows his ****" about hormones say that its these abrupt imbalances that end up causing unwanted side effects. And that if you taper things, up or down slowly, these issues can be mitigated.

Ive lost contact with him since then, otherwise i would try to ask him to go more in depth on the issue. I know its total bro science putting it like this, but i can see why his point would make sense.

Is this the same with sarms on hormone imbalance.

 

[Toren]

Thanks, this helped clarify a ton.

Regarding the imbalances, i once heard from an irl friend who "knows his ****" about hormones say that its these abrupt imbalances that end up causing unwanted side effects. And that if you taper things, up or down slowly, these issues can be mitigated.

Ive lost contact with him since then, otherwise i would try to ask him to go more in depth on the issue. I know its total bro science putting it like this, but i can see why his point would make sense.

You'll certainly feel drastic/acute hormonal changes a heck of a lot sooner. Staying in a chronic state of hormonal imbalance will eventually lead to some form of issues, even if the symptoms are initially somewhat mitigated by a slower ascension or descension to a particular value.

I always advocate for tapering where it might make sense. I believe (in the short-term) it helps the body to adjust to the overall changing environment.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Is this the same with sarms on hormone imbalance.

Im not entirely sure if you were asking me or affirming that?!

In case it was a question, what i know regarding sarms is that since they bind to the androgen receptors, they occupy the "space" where testosterone would bind... therefore leaving you initially with a bunch of testosterone that your body doesnt know what to do with... and ends up converting that to estrogen and testosterone levels drop(also because the sarms are already binded to the receptors and your body thinks there is no need to make more test).

Thats why you see some people get gyno from sarms even though they are non-steroidal and also dont convert to E.

Maybe Toren could prove me wrong or confirm

 

[Toren]

SARMs lower SHBG which makes previously bound Testosterone free to be converted to various hormones, including estrogen. Testosterone and Estrogen, without a receptor to attach to, will eventually be metabolized and excreted.

 

[jameschoi]

SARMs lower SHBG which makes previously bound Testosterone free to be converted to various hormones, including estrogen. Testosterone and Estrogen, without a receptor to attach to, will eventually be metabolized and excreted.

What do you recommend for muscle building.

 

[Toren]

What do you recommend for muscle building.

SARMs, steroids, GH and GHSR agonists (such as Ipamorelin).

All of the above work. All have pros and cons.

I wasn't suggesting not to use SARMs, just explaining what happens with unbound hormones because of SARM (or steroid) use.

Anything that greatly takes the place of testosterone or estrogen at the receptor will cause some sort of hormonal change or imbalance. Being able to temporarily manage those imbalances is the key.

 

[Brandon25]

SARMs, steroids, GH and GHSR agonists (such as Ipamorelin).

All of the above work. All have pros and cons.

I wasn't suggesting not to use SARMs, just explaining what happens with unbound hormones because of SARM (or steroid) use.

Anything that greatly takes the place of testosterone or estrogen at the receptor will cause some sort of hormonal change or imbalance. Being able to temporarily manage those imbalances is the key.

Can you provide me with a breakdown of a proper cycle according to my original post. Just trying to slowly get everything in place before starting in the coming months.

 

[Toren]

Can you provide me with a breakdown of a proper cycle according to my original post. Just trying to slowly get everything in place before starting in the coming months.

Post up a full breakdown (doses + duration) of your previous two 1/4 and 1/4/Epi cycles and PCT and we can go from there.

 

[Brandon25]

First Cycle 1/4
8 weeks
330/330/330 of 1/4
exemsane at 12.5 e3d
PCT was clomid 50/25/25/25/12.5/12.5 exemstane e3d at 12.5 (No sides from this at all)

2nd Cycle 1/4/Epi was exactly same as first cycle, without the exemstane during cycle. PCT was the same. I developed a small spot of gyno a couple months after completing PCT. Just trying to make sure that nothing like that happens again. thanks for the help!

 

[JoePaul39]

Killing your estrogen on cycle is not a good idea. Estrogen is just as important as Testosterone for energy, libido, lipid health, muscle growth, etc. Suppressing estrogen for long periods of time can create an environment where rebound is more likely to occur after the fact.

I would not say that too much AI can induce gyno, just that creating huge imbalances for extended periods of time, one way or the other, can increase the likelihood for issues down the road.
.

Can keeping cycles shorter to say 4 weeks as opposed to running 8 week cycles reduce the possibility of gyno?

 

[DennisC1986]

Six weeks of clomid seems overkill for that cycle imo. Not sure where the late stage gyno would come from.

 

[DennisC1986]

Also, if we're talking Andros here a 4 week cycle will not do much of anything for you.

 

[Toren]

Can keeping cycles shorter to say 4 weeks as opposed to running 8 week cycles reduce the possibility of gyno?

It takes actual gynecomastia time to form so in theory, being in a state of great hormonal flux for shorter periods of time might make lasting negative effects less likely to hold on. Make sense? In reality though, there are so many variables that play a role in developing gynecomastia that an extra week or a few weeks on a cycle doesn't have to make that big of a difference. It all comes down to how you manage your cycle with ancillaries and otherwise. Bottom line, be prepared for all of the negative consequences of cycling "anabolics".

I also am not a big fan of short 4 week cycles if you are using suppressive compounds. In the long run, I just don't see it as being worth it. Gains can be made, but at what cost?

 

[Toren]

Six weeks of clomid seems overkill for that cycle imo. Not sure where the late stage gyno would come from.

Six weeks of Clomiphene with no AI could do it. Having out of range E when hopping off the SERM combined with poor E metabolism, skewed metabolism to more aggressive forms of E, elevated levels of free E (from lowered SHBG) from a PCT product, not to mention 14+ weeks of hormonal imbalance. All are possibilities that may have contrinuted to that outcome. Not to mention there are studies that indicate SERMs can actually upregulate gene expression of certain ERs.

Mother nature usually (although not always) does a pretty good job of managing things before us conscious humans come in and f*ck stuff up.

 

[Mzakif]

If you are using anabolics or PCT drugs, your hormones are already out of balance from where they would normally be. In regards to the T:E balance (ratio), in an ideal world, your T and E levels would go up and down in unison. This doesn't necessarily happen though. Any type of imblance can create issues.

Killing your estrogen on cycle is not a good idea. Estrogen is just as important as Testosterone for energy, libido, lipid health, muscle growth, etc. Suppressing estrogen for long periods of time can create an environment where rebound is more likely to occur after the fact.

I would not say that too much AI can induce gyno, just that creating huge imbalances for extended periods of time, one way or the other, can increase the likelihood for issues down the road. When you crush your estrogen, your body will do things to try and bring those levels back to where they would normally be. Whether that be by increasing (upregulating) the amount of aromtase enzyme in the body or by increasing the density or sensitivity of estrogen receptors. Both of those scenarios create the potential for a faster rise in E or more aggressive binding/transcription at the receptor (cellular actions).

As far as using an AI on cycle. You can drastically lower your E yet still have issues with gyno or gyno-like symptoms. I've seen it happen before where guys are using huge doses of their AI but are still dealing with lumps - this is where you have that "binding or over-expression issue". This is when you would introduce a SERM like Tamoxifen to block some of the actions of estrogen at the receptor. My philosophy is to use light AI doses (when using aromatizing compounds) and adjust up to moderate doses if necessary. If this is not eliminating your "nipple issues", at this point in time you would add in the SERM at a mild dose and then adjust that dose upwards until negative symptoms resolve or are under control. I don't believe in using heavy doses of just one or the other. I believe light doses of both are better.

This information were extensive and useful but I’m a bit confused therefore it would be great if u advise me about the following cycle:

Cycle length will be 8 weeks
1 and 4 @ about 470mg
Epi will be 1000-1250 1 st 4 weeks then I might increase it to 1500

I’m planning to use arimcare pro

And the question here arimcare prof contains
- 50mg of Androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione
- 100mg of Abieta-8,199,13-trien-18-oic acid (extracted from Colophony) (min. 95% purity by HPLC)

Would these increase Gyno rebound

I’ll be using Sup3r PCT FOR 4 weeks
And I’m thinking of nolva

Will I need test booster with Sup3r pct

Can I use Arimidex as a SERM in hand as we do not have adex where I live ?


I’m 40 years old been lifting none stop for over 3 years and this is my 1st cycle

 

[Toren]

This information were extensive and useful but I’m a bit confused therefore it would be great if u advise me about the following cycle:

Cycle length will be 8 weeks
1 and 4 @ about 470mg
Epi will be 1000-1250 1 st 4 weeks then I might increase it to 1500

I’m planning to use arimcare pro

And the question here arimcare prof contains
- 50mg of Androsta-3,5-dien-7,17-dione
- 100mg of Abieta-8,199,13-trien-18-oic acid (extracted from Colophony) (min. 95% purity by HPLC)

Would these increase Gyno rebound

I’ll be using Sup3r PCT FOR 4 weeks
And I’m thinking of nolva

Will I need test booster with Sup3r pct

Can I use Arimidex as a SERM in hand as we do not have adex where I live ?

I wouldn't worry about them increasing your chances for rebound. There really isn't a definite way to measure those chances anyway...

Oral arimistane (certainly at those doses) can at best be considered a very mild AI. I'm not entirely sure of the MOA of Abieta or of the specific strength of it as an AI, but I highly doubt it comes close to an Rx AI. Again, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Careful on that starting Epi dose. Some people love high-dosed epi while others have anxiety issues with it. Unless you've used it before, I'd suggest maybe starting at 500-750mg and adjusting up as required. FWIW, I've never taken epi-andro before so I speak based upon what others have told me.

I would definitely use a SERM for PCT at those dosages. Nolva is your PCT, Sup3r-PCT is an adjunct to that PCT protocol. I would not use it as a stand-alone in this circumstance. No additional Test booster needed with those two boosters.

Arimidex is the same as Adex. Arimidex is the brand name of the actual AI drug anastrazole. It is not a SERM and I would not use it as one. You can use it as part of your PCT but you should be careful to monitor and taper your dose properly during this time period. I would most definitely recommend exemestane over anastrazole for PCT purposes, though. There is likely less chance of "rebound" when using this AI.

 

[Mzakif]

I wouldn't worry about them increasing your chances for rebound. There really isn't a definite way to measure those chances anyway...

Oral arimistane (certainly at those doses) can at best be considered a very mild AI. I'm not entirely sure of the MOA of Abieta or of the specific strength of it as an AI, but I highly doubt it comes close to an Rx AI. Again, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Careful on that starting Epi dose. Some people love high-dosed epi while others have anxiety issues with it. Unless you've used it before, I'd suggest maybe starting at 500-750mg and adjusting up as required. FWIW, I've never taken epi-andro before so I speak based upon what others have told me.

I would definitely use a SERM for PCT at those dosages. Nolva is your PCT, Sup3r-PCT is an adjunct to that PCT protocol. I would not use it as a stand-alone in this circumstance. No additional Test booster needed with those two boosters.

Arimidex is the same as Adex. Arimidex is the brand name of the actual AI drug anastrazole. It is not a SERM and I would not use it as one. You can use it as part of your PCT but you should be careful to monitor and taper your dose properly during this time period. I would most definitely recommend exemestane over anastrazole for PCT purposes, though. There is likely less chance of "rebound" when using this AI.

Ok just to make sure I got every thing clearly

I’ll start epi at 500 to 750 mg 1st then I would increase it if I didn’t suffer from anxiety

What is FWIW?

So I won’t need anything else on cycle with Ar1macare pro? In case I developed Gyno?

Regarding PCT Nolvadex and Sup3r PCT only.
However you recommend using Exemestane instead of nolvadex if I can get right?

What do you thing of using clomid for PCT wouldn’t it be better restarting my testosterone production?

Sorry what do you mean by monitor and taper dose ?

Thanks

 

[Toren]

Ok just to make sure I got every thing clearly

I’ll start epi at 500 to 750 mg 1st then I would increase it if I didn’t suffer from anxiety

What is FWIW?

So I won’t need anything else on cycle with Ar1macare pro? In case I developed Gyno?

Regarding PCT Nolvadex and Sup3r PCT only.
However you recommend using Exemestane instead of nolvadex if I can get right?

What do you thing of using clomid for PCT wouldn’t it be better restarting my testosterone production?

Thanks

That would be what I would do with my epi dosing protocol. Start a bit lower than adjust up if there are no issues.

FWIW = for what it's worth

If you have "gyno" issues on cycle, you can use your Arimidex to help manage it, or you can use it in combination with low-dose Nolva. I'd start with just low dose Adex first. A dose of 0.25mg EOD or 0.5mg 2x per week is a reasonable starting point. I highly doubt you will have any on-cycle issues with E managment with your setup and I would not use your AI (Arimidex) or your SERM (Nolva) unless negative symptoms start to appear (on cycle).

Nolva is a SERM and will block the action of estrogen at the receptor, and boost your Test levels as well. Exemestane/anastrazole are AIs and will help to lower overall estrogen within the body. They can be used together to manage hormone levels. Nolva should be your MAIN PCT product, Sup3r-PCT and exemestane can be an addition to that. Exemestane is not a proper substitution for Nolva.

This is what I would do for PCT (at 40 yrs. old):

Nolva: 20/20/10/10/5
Super PCT: as directed

I prefer Nolva over Clomid. Both can do a great job of boosting Testosterone. Clomid is the more studied compound in that regard but Nolva fares just about as well as does Clomid in this area. Nolva also does a much better job of managing and/or preventing gyno than does Clomid.

Please make sure you do some more reading on all of these compounds before you start your cycle. Knowledge and preparation will drastically increase your chances of having a successful cycle.

 

[JoePaul39]

This information were extensive and useful but I’m a bit confused therefore it would be great if u advise me about the following cycle:

Cycle length will be 8 weeks
1 and 4 @ about 470mg
Epi will be 1000-1250 1 st 4 weeks then I might increase it to 1500




I’m 40 years old been lifting none stop for over 3 years and this is my 1st cycle

I would go for 330 mg of the 1 andro and 4 andro instead of 470mg if this is your first cycle to reduce the potential of side effects. 1000 mg Epi would also probably suffice to get a full return on that andro. Lots of guys on here have run andros at 330 mg with good results. Good luck.

 

[Toren]

I would go for 330 mg of the 1 andro and 4 andro instead of 470mg if this is your first cycle to reduce the potential of side effects. 1000 mg Epi would also probably suffice to get a full return on that andro. Lots of guys on here have run andros at 330 mg with good results. Good luck.

Solid advice if it's a first cycle. 300-350mg are good starting doses for 1/4-DHEA. You can always up the dose in the second month if you see fit.

 

[JoePaul39]

Solid advice if it's a first cycle. 300-350mg are good starting doses for 1/4-DHEA. You can always up the dose in the second month if you see fit.

Toren,

If one has run the andros at 330 mg successfully in the past, what do you think the max dose is for these compounds (along with Epi) that one can run safely and still see additional returns without too many sides? Also, for the first cycle I ran using Olympus labs 1 andro elite, the Olympus Labs rep I exchanged emails told me that eventually after 3or 4 cycles of this compound at 330mg users would have to up the dose just to see returns, would you agree with this conclusion? One thing he said that I found rather unbelievable is that max dose with either 1 andro or 4 is 800mg to 900mg, but that dosage sounds like a prescription for cardiac arrest to me, do you agree? The users in the 1andro study had negative effects on their liver and kidney values at 330mg and terrible lipid readings. I could only imagine what the readings would be at 800 to 900 mg. I have never seen any logs on here by users with that kind of dosage run either. I realize he worked for Olympus, thus would have a vested interest in users dosing in such high ranges.

 

[Toren]

Toren,

If one has run the andros at 330 mg successfully in the past, what do you think the max dose is for these compounds (along with Epi) that one can run safely and still see additional returns without too many sides? Also, for the first cycle I ran using Olympus labs 1 andro elite, the Olympus Labs rep I exchanged emails told me that eventually after 3or 4 cycles of this compound at 330mg users would have to up the dose just to see returns, would you agree with this conclusion? One thing he said that I found rather unbelievable is that max dose with either 1 andro or 4 is 800mg to 900mg, but that dosage sounds like a prescription for cardiac arrest to me, do you agree? The users in the 1andro study had negative effects on their liver and kidney values at 330mg and terrible lipid readings. I could only imagine what the readings would be at 800 to 900 mg. I have never seen any logs on here by users with that kind of dosage run either. I realize he worked for Olympus, thus would have a vested interest in users dosing in such high ranges.

First, let me say that I don't have much personal experience with these new DHEA 2-steppers so I speak mostly based upon what I've seen and read. I have a bit more experience with the original diones/diols from many years ago. I'm sure some other members can speak to mega-dosing the new stuff.

The maximum dose one could use without seeing side-effects is going to be person-dependent; We all respond differently to these compounds. It's more of a trial and error situation whereby a subject that has used 300+ and had good results, could probably "safely" use 400 or even 500+ and also see good results before the negatives begin to outweigh the positives. Some people see horrible lethargy from even 300mg of 1-Andro. I really feel that experience in managing cycles is often more important the particular doses.

The "rate-limiting factor" for these two-step compounds is the body and it's ability to actually convert them to more potent hormones. The amount of available enzyme for conversion is different from person to person. I don't think that this can be measured either - certainly not by the average joe without a science lab. I've seen people have good results with upwards of 500-600mg of 1/4-DHEA, while others have reported great results with 1250mg of Epi. Having said all that, even without conversion to a stronger hormone, these pre-cursors, while not nearly as anabolic or androgenic, are not altogether benign.

It's normal to have to up the dosages of many different anabolics when using them consistently over a period of time and hoping to get the same net-benefit with each use. If you really want to see big gains from every cycle, take large amounts of time off in between and the impact of each cycle will seemingly be stronger than if you were to cycle continually, with short breaks in between, and using the same compounds. For example a guy that started out cycling with Test at 400mg may not see nearly the same results with that 400mg dose 2,5 and certainly 10 years later. He may feel he needs upwards of a gram or more to elicit the same net-benefit that he saw on his first few cycles. It's just the way it goes. Cycle once per year for 8 weeks and you'll feel almost as if it's your first cycle every time.

I've seen it stated a few times that an "assumed" maximum dose of the Andros is somewhere in the range of 800-1000mg ED. I don't think it makes sense for your pocketbook to run the DHEA-based Andros at those doses. There are better compounds that are much stronger on a mg:mg basis and for a lot less money. The OL reps that I've seen around here are generally pretty good guys so I don't think anybody is trying to upsell you on the andros, I just think it's hard to say what the actual maximum dosage would be. Look at it this way, there are guys that use 500mg of Test and believe it or not, there are guys that use 1500+mg of Test per week. Healthy? Probably not, but doable for some who believe gains are the most important thing in their life.

My guess is that 3+ grams of the Andros every day would probably not be a great idea for a number of health markers but again, cycle management is so important and comes with experience, research, and knowledge. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to experiment with 5,6,700+ dosages. But is it worth it? You'd certainly want to have solid cycle support, lipid control, all of the necessary ancillaries, etc.

I did a cycle of 600-800mg of 1,4 AD Bold 200 back in the day and that was not uncommon at all. The original 1-AD/4-AD was also regularly cycled at 600-800mg ED....