What's your Anabolic Religion???

[MrKleen73]

Whats your Anabolic Religion?


So many people apply morals or idealistic mindsets towards the use of gear from demonizing it to insisting only those who have perfected all other aspects should use to only those who aspire to be a pro should. There are just seriously a lot of idealist beliefs about the use of Anabolics, and or PEDS in general. I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion regarding the topic.

I brought this up in a thread talking to fueledpassion who was also interested in this topic of discussion. So I told him I would create a thread for us to discuss. Obviously people are going to feel passionate about their stance on these situations. So let's keep it somewhat civil, and also not have anyone turning all "Hulk Smash" because someone disagrees with your stance. That is why I call it your Anabolic Religion because people will architect a belief system about what makes using them okay or not okay for someone to use Anabolics or PEDs and then defend it as if it were the word of God.

Here is MY stance on PED's and Anabolics
I just see PEDs as a tool to get better effects, and the better you make use of the tool depends on your results. In this case quality of use that improves overall effect is the level of discipline in training and nutrition you apply it with. Nothing more nothing less. Has nothing to do with competing, or age(so long as adult). Just so long as the person is aware of the possible dangers or side effects and bases their decisions off of some sort of risk assessment then none of those other things really matter. It is definitely not a moral decision other than the decision to break the law that is... but hey if you speed or jaywalk then the law isn't what guides your morals anyway...

Here are some of fueledpassion's thoughts on the subject.

Thats right. We should shine a light on the inconsistent, or as more accuratey put, hypocritical viewpoints that others place specifically on PEDs use. I suppose this could easily drag the topic all the way back to “the speck vs. the plank” and “what makes something inherently good or bad” or “where do morals come from - government or God?”

I would reckon AAS and PEDs in general would fall under the same grey areas as most everything else, from liquor to using coarse language to marginally speeding on the interstate to whatever else you could think of. Each requires discernment but above all else, a free country and a free society requires autonomy, which inherently implies willful tolerance to others decisions in regard to their bodies’.

But I digress. Use my post here as a kickstart if you like, lol.

Anyway, the question is... What is your Anabolic Religion! Tell us what you believe regarding PED's, is there only a certain group who should use them? Should it only be professionals, people who aspire to be pros? Only people who are perfect with their diet and training? Only people over the age of 25? What criteria do you believe one should have to meet before going on a cycle. Why do you feel that way? Did you get your philosophy from others or develop yours on your own or a mix of the two.

Just curious... WHAT IS YOUR ANABOLIC RELIGION????

 

[Nac]

For me, there are two sides to this.

The term "religion" comes with connotations of dogma and generally the inability to see the world as "grey" and relative (so, aspects of it are seen as absolute and black/white).

We can see this attitude reflected in all the dogmas perpetuated on the forums; all the stereotypes and cookie-cutter advice. Which is innevitable, cos its difficult to give good personalised and individualistic advice via this medium. So, we tend to resort to cliche. Which just perpetuates the dogmas.

On the other hand, ideally we want to be less "anabolically religious" and more "anabolic scientists", where dogma is questioned and rejected where appropriate. So, we dont align ourselves with any "religious" mentalities or have our thinking and beliefs confined by dogma.

Its a struggle, and requires constant effort and overcoming ego and emotions, but worth it for the sake of evolution (knowledge, not species).

 

[DemntedCowboy]

My view on it is inline with yours, as long as your an adult, and know the consequences of using it. But I also think, you should have your diet in check before you jump on in to it. Cause diet is whats gonna make it useful, or regretful

 

[rascal14]

I think people should do the same as you should with a tattoo.. if you want it, mark it on your calendar and if in a year you still do, go for it. Of course as long as you understand all the possibilities of using them, and you are a decent age and have a good foundation.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Hmmmm. I typically find myself trying to talk people out of gear, but that’s also because most of them are younger. I just believe that people should generally wait till they’re 21-25 minimum to even consider it. I’m basically just against using it without knowing what you’re doing. People that know what they’re doing get my support :]

 

[Cgkone]

I'm all for the use of AAS.
Any drugs for that matter
An adult should be able to put whatever they choose into their bodies.

 

[SFreed]

Like most others here, my feelings are that as long as you understand what you're putting into your body, go for it. I get kind of tired of seeing people on here asking the most basic of questions. They haven't done any research and in my mind, shouldn't be using anything.

 

[SouthPawSD]

Anyway, the question is... What is your Anabolic Religion! Tell us what you believe regarding PED's, is there only a certain group who should use them? Should it only be professionals, people who aspire to be pros? Only people who are perfect with their diet and training? Only people over the age of 25? What criteria do you believe one should have to meet before going on a cycle. Why do you feel that way? Did you get your philosophy from others or develop yours on your own or a mix of the two.

Just curious... WHAT IS YOUR ANABOLIC RELIGION????

Interesting thoughts. Religion is an interesting word to choose! I think most people who are on this forum will fall under the "do what you want as long as you know what your doing" idea. Personally, I believe that as long as you understand that you are experimenting on yourself, know that dangers (including extremes), and how do do it, then your under the umbrella of "able" to do PEDs.

I would however never recommend that someone do PEDS though. Once you step over the line, there is no going back and I would never want to put someone in that position. People should make their own choices, with no peer pressure either way.

As for when and who, I believe anyone can do gear as long as they have done their research and know what they are really doing.. Yes you shouldn't do them before 21, but if someone knows the risks then that is their choice. Besides, if a say 17 yr old is asking the questions on forums, will a few guys who are trying to tell them not to really going to change the kid's mind? I know if I thought about it then no one would of changed my mind lol.

As for the law... well is it any worse then running a red light? Would you say going 120 MPH in a 60 MPH zone is less worse? All a matter of perspective.
Whisky Get in on this, I want to hear your thoughts

 

[MrKleen73]

You know what i find interesting is most of the people who tend to espouse ideas about this seem to be very vocal because you see it all over the net.

Yet here in this thread so far, most everyone in here has kind of echoed the same thing. I don't care what people do so long as they are an adult they can make their own decisions.

We have had a few people say that diet should be in check to use them.

I would argue that one of the things that makes PEDS so attractive is that you do not have to have your diet that in check to get good results. Obviously if you want to cut then yes you need it pretty in check to get really lean but lets be honest just about anyone can recomp on gear without counting macros, just kind of watching what they eat, training hard, and maybe even having a few drinks on the weekend.

Bottom line is with gear you get better results doing 85% of everything right than you will being natty doing following your plan 100%. That is extremely attractive to most anyone... It is to me and when I run a recreational cycle that is what I do. Run things in the 85-90% adherence levels and get really good results. Mostly the deviance tends to be diet based for me as I train hard no matter what. Sometimes too hard.

Now if it were competition prep then yeah 100% the whole time but that is me needing to sacrifice more to get to greatness.

This is part of the reason why I mentioned that the discipline applied to nutrition and training is going to be the deciding factor in the quality of the results. However I do not think that my opinion of how much someone should put into their cycle has a damn thing to do with what they choose to do. You decide how much to get out of gear by how much you put into it, not how much gear you put in the syringe.

For me, in the end it is about there is no moral decision there. Just the decision of what level of sacrifice they want to trade to improve the results.


I challenge some of you to tag people in here that you feel have actually said they have some beliefs about when it is appropriate or not. I would love to see some of the different reasons why people who hold these beliefs do so.

 

[Cgkone]

You know what i find interesting is most of the people who tend to espouse ideas about this seem to be very vocal because you see it all over the net.

Yet here in this thread so far, most everyone in here has kind of echoed the same thing. I don't care what people do so long as they are an adult they can make their own decisions.

We have had a few people say that diet should be in check to use them.

I would argue that one of the things that makes PEDS so attractive is that you do not have to have your diet that in check to get good results. Obviously if you want to cut then yes you need it pretty in check to get really lean but lets be honest just about anyone can recomp on gear without counting macros, just kind of watching what they eat, training hard, and maybe even having a few drinks on the weekend.

Bottom line is with gear you get better results doing 85% of everything right than you will being natty doing following your plan 100%. That is extremely attractive to most anyone... It is to me and when I run a recreational cycle that is what I do. Run things in the 85-90% adherence levels and get really good results. Mostly the deviance tends to be diet based for me as I train hard no matter what. Sometimes too hard.

Now if it were competition prep then yeah 100% the whole time but that is me needing to sacrifice more to get to greatness.

This is part of the reason why I mentioned that the discipline applied to nutrition and training is going to be the deciding factor in the quality of the results. However I do not think that my opinion of how much someone should put into their cycle has a damn thing to do with what they choose to do. You decide how much to get out of gear by how much you put into it, not how much gear you put in the syringe.

For me, in the end it is about there is no moral decision there. Just the decision of what level of sacrifice they want to trade to improve the results.


I challenge some of you to tag people in here that you feel have actually said they have some beliefs about when it is appropriate or not. I would love to see some of the different reasons why people who hold these beliefs do so.

Brother.......WE ALL USE AAS.
So nobody is going to scream "its the devil"
Hopefully some Natties will chime in and tell us why we are evil junkies
?

 

[MrKleen73]

Brother.......WE ALL USE AAS.
So nobody is going to scream "its the devil"
Hopefully some Natties will chime in and tell us why we are evil junkies
��

Oh, no I don't expect anyone to say it is the devil. I do expect those who tend to say only competitors should use, or only people over the age of 25 should use, only those who have a perfect diet should use... stuff like that. Reason being is that I see those comments all the time on this board among users of AAS. I am always seeing people say things like this. Perhaps the thread title being labeled "What's your Anabolc religion" makes those with these idealistic beliefs not want to speak up.

 

[Cgkone]

Oh, no I don't expect anyone to say it is the devil. I do expect those who tend to say only competitors should use, or only people over the age of 25 should use, only those who have a perfect diet should use... stuff like that. Reason being is that I see those comments all the time on this board among users of AAS. I am always seeing people say things like this. Perhaps the thread title being labeled "What's your Anabolc religion" makes those with these idealistic beliefs not want to speak up.

Right,
More people will chime in.
To be honest, my little comment was one of the shortest, it was hard for me to come up with a "mantra".
Way harder than I thought it was going to be.
I wrote a few, then erased.
It is a cool topic that makes you really think about how you actually feel.

 

[fueledpassion]

For me, there are two sides to this.

The term "religion" comes with connotations of dogma and generally the inability to see the world as "grey" and relative (so, aspects of it are seen as absolute and black/white).

We can see this attitude reflected in all the dogmas perpetuated on the forums; all the stereotypes and cookie-cutter advice. Which is innevitable, cos its difficult to give good personalised and individualistic advice via this medium. So, we tend to resort to cliche. Which just perpetuates the dogmas.

On the other hand, ideally we want to be less "anabolically religious" and more "anabolic scientists", where dogma is questioned and rejected where appropriate. So, we dont align ourselves with any "religious" mentalities or have our thinking and beliefs confined by dogma.

Its a struggle, and requires constant effort and overcoming ego and emotions, but worth it for the sake of evolution (knowledge, not species).

I want to challenge your notion that religion comes with being “dogmatic”. I have faith, yes. But not blind faith. Not at all. The world around me confirms my belief better than the alternatives. None have absolute certainty, of course & thus, being dogmatic is suggesting a “certainty of knowing” when there isn’t 100% certainty.

Our scientific community has become this way in Western society today.

Anyways, I can be zealous for my “religion” if we can call it that while at the same time, completely willing to replace parts or all of my doctrines with Truth, should It diverge with my beliefs. What sort of God would He be if He were not Truth?

The same applies for PED’s use. If I let the pursuit of truth (in a non-dogmatic fashion) lead me, then I must come to the conclusion that I have come to.

However, my knowledge of PED’s is not absolute Truth, so I concede that in 5-10 years, asuming my knowledge increases alongside my experiences, my PED’s religion could in fact be different from today.

 

[Georgiepecker]

I feel there is a certain bond between many individuals who take PEDs and that take their training very seriously....almost a “we will do anything to reach our goals” mindset and that’s what I love about it!

It is literally like unlocking a secret and takes your physique and mental state to a whole other plane if done successfully.

 

[fueledpassion]

I feel there is a certain bond between many individuals who take PEDs and that take their training very seriously....almost a “we will do anything to reach our goals” mindset and that’s what I love about it!

It is literally like unlocking a secret and takes your physique and mental state to a whole other plane if done successfully.

I agree. If the “journey” is what we’re all about in terms of body-sculpting, then PED’s is the black light that gives us the invisible part of the map that leads to a more desireable and less known destination.

 

[MrKleen73]

Right,
More people will chime in.
To be honest, my little comment was one of the shortest, it was hard for me to come up with a "mantra".
Way harder than I thought it was going to be.
I wrote a few, then erased.
It is a cool topic that makes you really think about how you actually feel.

Thanks, and this is what i was hoping for. People to look at it themselves and say HMMMM. You know, I am not sure i have ever really given this that much thought. I think often when it comes to ideals, self reflection shows that most people have more gray area than they believed themselves to if being honest with themselves.

I want to challenge your notion that religion comes with being “dogmatic”. I have faith, yes. But not blind faith. Not at all. The world around me confirms my belief better than the alternatives. None have absolute certainty, of course & thus, being dogmatic is suggesting a “certainty of knowing” when there isn’t 100% certainty.

Our scientific community has become this way in Western society today.

Anyways, I can be zealous for my “religion” if we can call it that while at the same time, completely willing to replace parts or all of my doctrines with Truth, should It diverge with my beliefs. What sort of God would He be if He were not Truth?

The same applies for PED’s use. If I let the pursuit of truth (in a non-dogmatic fashion) lead me, then I must come to the conclusion that I have come to.

However, my knowledge of PED’s is not absolute Truth, so I concede that in 5-10 years, asuming my knowledge increases alongside my experiences, my PED’s religion could in fact be different from today.

This last sentence makes a ton of sense! My views and knowledge are constantly evolving as I take in more for lack of a better word... data. Whether that be life experience, reading new research or whatever.

I feel there is a certain bond between many individuals who take PEDs and that take their training very seriously....almost a “we will do anything to reach our goals” mindset and that’s what I love about it!

It is literally like unlocking a secret and takes your physique and mental state to a whole other plane if done successfully.

Agreed, and I do know a lot of people with that mindset. I know a lot more who think they have that mindset but fall short of it and the evidence in in the results that they get. I agree though it is like unlocking God mode or something in a game. Although i don't know that I would call it a secret.

I agree. If the “journey” is what we’re all about in terms of body-sculpting, then PED’s is the black light that gives us the invisible part of the map that leads to a more desireable and less known destination.

Right, you have to spill the water on the map and then the extra line showing you where the real treasure is shows up.

 

[Nac]

I want to challenge your notion that religion comes with being “dogmatic”. I have faith, yes. But not blind faith. Not at all. The world around me confirms my belief better than the alternatives. None have absolute certainty, of course & thus, being dogmatic is suggesting a “certainty of knowing” when there isn’t 100% certainty.

Our scientific community has become this way in Western society today.

Anyways, I can be zealous for my “religion” if we can call it that while at the same time, completely willing to replace parts or all of my doctrines with Truth, should It diverge with my beliefs. What sort of God would He be if He were not Truth?

The same applies for PED’s use. If I let the pursuit of truth (in a non-dogmatic fashion) lead me, then I must come to the conclusion that I have come to.

However, my knowledge of PED’s is not absolute Truth, so I concede that in 5-10 years, asuming my knowledge increases alongside my experiences, my PED’s religion could in fact be different from today.

We could probably debate this forever, and ultimately any disagreeances will hinge on semantics. Which is cool, words are obviously important.

To be fair, I did say the term "religion" comes with connotations of dogma, so not necessarily that it does.

However, I cant see religion (in the traditional sense or that used ITT) amounting to much if it doesnt involve some set of core beliefs or principles that are in essence dogmatic; Western religion is defined by its concept of an omnipresent/omniscient God whose son Jesus was put on earth to further His message. Now, these ideas are clearly debateable and not simply "givens". That they are non-negotiable as far as a believer is concerned, to me suggests they are dogmas.

We all may differ in that the specifics of our dogmas vary, but we all carry them and live by them. I think we agree on that.

 

[fueledpassion]

We could probably debate this forever, and ultimately any disagreeances will hinge on semantics. Which is cool, words are obviously important.

To be fair, I did say the term "religion" comes with connotations of dogma, so not necessarily that it does.

However, I cant see religion (in the traditional sense or that used ITT) amounting to much if it doesnt involve some set of core beliefs or principles that are in essence dogmatic; Western religion is defined by its concept of an omnipresent/omniscient God whose son Jesus was put on earth to further His message. Now, these ideas are clearly debateable and not simply "givens". That they are non-negotiable as far as a believer is concerned, to me suggests they are dogmas.

We all may differ in that the specifics of our dogmas vary, but we all carry them and live by them. I think we agree on that.

How about let me put it this way:

If I choose to believe in a certain belief, such as the one you mentioned above, without testing those beliefs and without willingness to concede or accept other ideas, then I am dogmatic.

But what I am saying is that I have tested my beliefs and they call on the least amount of faith to believe them. All ideas require faith as long as we aren’t omniscient and once I started testing everything I believed vs. the various most popular alternatives, I was led into a stronger, but not dogmatic, faith.

 

[Nac]

How about let me put it this way:

If I choose to believe in a certain belief, such as the one you mentioned above, without testing those beliefs and without willingness to concede or accept other ideas, then I am dogmatic.

But what I am saying is that I have tested my beliefs and they call on the least amount of faith to believe them. All ideas require faith as long as we aren’t omniscient and once I started testing everything I believed vs. the various most popular alternatives, I was led into a stronger, but not dogmatic, faith.

Cool, nothing there I would disagree with.

I would just add, though, that you are the exception and not the norm. Which is consistent with your general MoA

 

[MrKleen73]

We could probably debate this forever, and ultimately any disagreeances will hinge on semantics. Which is cool, words are obviously important.

To be fair, I did say the term "religion" comes with connotations of dogma, so not necessarily that it does.

However, I cant see religion (in the traditional sense or that used ITT) amounting to much if it doesnt involve some set of core beliefs or principles that are in essence dogmatic; Western religion is defined by its concept of an omnipresent/omniscient God whose son Jesus was put on earth to further His message. Now, these ideas are clearly debateable and not simply "givens". That they are non-negotiable as far as a believer is concerned, to me suggests they are dogmas.

We all may differ in that the specifics of our dogmas vary, but we all carry them and live by them. I think we agree on that.

How about let me put it this way:

If I choose to believe in a certain belief, such as the one you mentioned above, without testing those beliefs and without willingness to concede or accept other ideas, then I am dogmatic.

But what I am saying is that I have tested my beliefs and they call on the least amount of faith to believe them. All ideas require faith as long as we aren’t omniscient and once I started testing everything I believed vs. the various most popular alternatives, I was led into a stronger, but not dogmatic, faith.

I think in this particular instance the question is more the use of the word dogmatic in the statements. NAC is referring to how the rules of religion are to be interpreted. As fact, and beyond reproach. IE to be a Christian, you ABSOLUTELY MUST believe that Jesus was the son of God and died so that our sins can be forgiven.

However Fueled is saying MY Faith is not dogmatic because I have and do question my faith but in doing so I found that it strengthened my beliefs.

So yes the religion itself is dogmatic, as most are, they come with a set of rules you are to follow. However Fueled's personal reasons why he chooses to put faith in the religion was not dogmatic.

Although with anabolics, just like religion, most are not dogmatic in the following of their ideals. They speak about beleiving one way but the actions are somewhere in the middle. In the bible it speaks negatively of the lack of conviction people have in their beliefs with the comments on water temperature and stating do not be luke warm in your following or you shall be spat out. So getting people to actually follow things dogmatically has always been a problem, and always will be.

Getting people to recognize that is the other side of it. Too many times people say "Do this, do that, but don't do what I am actually doing. I tell others to do it that way because it is better for them but it is not really how I do things..."

NO NO NO!!!! Be real with yourself and others... If you are in a thread with someone asking if they can have a couple drinks one night on cycle and you have done it before and will probably do it again don't go in being a hypocrite and tell them they shouldn't just to police them when it isn't important enough of a rule for you to follow. Tell them the possible health risks, what could exacerbate those risks, and what your experience has been then let them make their own decision.

 

[fueledpassion]

Cool, nothing there I would disagree with.

I would just add, though, that you are the exception and not the norm. Which is consistent with your general MoA

True. It should be known though that decades ago, maybe even centuries ago, my MoA was the norm and much of what this country (America) is founded upon today was intensely challenged and debated in the past and stood up to the test. We should apply such approaches to bodybuilding and PED’s as well.

We’ve lost the ability to seek and learn truth on our own and we have altogether gotten out of the practice of critical thinking.

 

[Whisky]

Great thread.....

Personally judge ped use (for myself) by the following criteria

- does it help me achieve my.goal
- is it the optimal way to achieve the goal
- is it needed to reach the goal in a resonable timeframe
- am i capable of controlling all the controllables linked to my goal.

So in my case, when i was trying to lose weight using peds would have met the first two criteria but failed the last two. Its why i don't like gastric band surgery, its not 'needed' to lose weight and the controllables (diet and nutrition) probably aren't being controlled.

My decision to use peds came from reaching a position where, at my age, my hormones simply werent allowing me to achieve my asthetic goals in any sort of resonable timeframe. They were the optimal way to do it and I was confident diet, nutrition and recovery were being controlled and on point.

Now its certainly not my place to 'judge' anyone elses decisions and when it cones to younger guys, well I made some horrendous decisions myself at that age so can't be hypocritcal and sit in judgement.

But

I would view the appropriateness of their ped use under the same criteria, by way of example.

20 yr old wants to go pro and compete in bodybuilding. Anabolics are optimal and hes not getting their natty, if he's researched properly and has everything on point, is disiplined in the gym, doesnt stay out drinking at parties etc, then i wouldn't view it negatively.

Another 20 yr old just wants to look good in tank top round uni, has 6 months half arsed training experience with poor nutrition. Wants to jump on a cycle to make it easier/get there quicker - i view that negatively.

No one elses anabolic or ped use annoys me, but genuinely i like to see other people doing well in life so i always feel its a shame when people (often younger guys) make decisions im confident they'll regret down the line (as i did myself).

Thats my view anyway, context is everything.

 

[MrKleen73]

Good stuff Whisky

 

[fueledpassion]

Great thread.....

Personally judge ped use (for myself) by the following criteria

- does it help me achieve my.goal
- is it the optimal way to achieve the goal
- is it needed to reach the goal in a resonable timeframe
- am i capable of controlling all the controllables linked to my goal.

So in my case, when i was trying to lose weight using peds would have met the first two criteria but failed the last two. Its why i don't like gastric band surgery, its not 'needed' to lose weight and the controllables (diet and nutrition) probably aren't being controlled.

My decision to use peds came from reaching a position where, at my age, my hormones simply werent allowing me to achieve my asthetic goals in any sort of resonable timeframe. They were the optimal way to do it and I was confident diet, nutrition and recovery were being controlled and on point.

Now its certainly not my place to 'judge' anyone elses decisions and when it cones to younger guys, well I made some horrendous decisions myself at that age so can't be hypocritcal and sit in judgement.

But

I would view the appropriateness of their ped use under the same criteria, by way of example.

20 yr old wants to go pro and compete in bodybuilding. Anabolics are optimal and hes not getting their natty, if he's researched properly and has everything on point, is disiplined in the gym, doesnt stay out drinking at parties etc, then i wouldn't view it negatively.

Another 20 yr old just wants to look good in tank top round uni, has 6 months half arsed training experience with poor nutrition. Wants to jump on a cycle to make it easier/get there quicker - i view that negatively.

No one elses anabolic or ped use annoys me, but genuinely i like to see other people doing well in life so i always feel its a shame when people (often younger guys) make decisions im confident they'll regret down the line (as i did myself).

Thats my view anyway, context is everything.

I’m with whisky. Most particularly the last paragraph.

 

[210LBS]

Damn I'm not as philosophical on the use of PEDs as you all are. Mine logic is much more simple. I ask the same question I ask for everything else I do: Is the risk/reward appealing to me? Wish I had more words of wisdom.