Tbol Vs Ostarine

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  1. I did my first cycle test winstrol. I gained 30 pounds and kept 20 and I got leaner. I want to add that my body responds insanly well to any steroid. Now tbol is a better bulker but I don't think I would have added that much more cause at one point the body says stop. I would say between 20-30 pounds can be done with this cycle no problem but seems like the majority gains somewhere between 15-20 pounds from their bulking cycles. Food is key here


  2. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I have definitely seen the same with gaining and dropping weight with gear after cycles. Heck my first 2 cycles I didn't have a clue about PCT, then again, that was 20+ years ago so not even sure they were being used at that point. Wasn't until the internet became saturated with information that I really started learning anything more than what a typical bro might.

    RIght now I am pretty lucky, well not sure if lucky is the right word, but I am making the most out of my TRT by having mini cycles peppered in throughout this year, and tracking bloodwork to stay healthy. So the last 2 oral cycles the only thing I really lost were what I would call glycogen gains... that extra 4-5lbs that you are able to keep in due to the gear just like you mentioned.

    As far as maintaining when I was not on TRT and this is obviously anecdotal evidence but the 2 cycles I kept the most from were ones that I was using a cortisol management supplement that I started using 1 week into the PCT. When I did that I did not lose that extra 3-ish lbs during PCT that I used too. So for me anyway that was the best post cycle maintenance of mass gains. Keeping an extra 3 or so pounds was definitely a pretty big deal.
    A lot of people are unaware of the normal physiological response to raise cortisol levels when on androgens for longer than a few weeks. This is a normal, healthy response but it isn't ideal in the first 2-3 weeks into PCT to have little or no anabolic androgens in your system and cortisol sky high as a residual effect from the cycle. It can get you fat and eat a good portion of muscle rather quickly in that vulnerable condition.
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  3. A great on cycle support is CEL CYCLE ASSIST. Used by many respected members here on AM.
    Black Lion Research Representative

  4. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Nice, so with good training and proper diet and macros, what Can I expect to gain/keep of solid muscle excluding water? The combination of Test and the oral (: I assume the oral helps as the Test C ester gets underway.
    ...
    Rep for Mr. Supps

    Code- AM10 for 10% off at mrsupps.com

  5. Nice, So regarding Cortisol, this is what Arimistane is best at doing right? I have plenty of that if so. Regarding cycle support ill either run CEL Assist or OL K1ngs Guard snagging a Black Friday deal perhaps. I want to GAIN GAIN GAIN. I want solid muscle my friends. Ill be eating plenty of rice and proteins no problem, veggies, the goods. Regarding the appetite, ill have mk677 ill be using as well, and that stuff helps with appetite for sure.

    Regarding PCT, could I run Osta @3mg (clinical study dose) during PCT. Also can we go over how this works with the 'C' ester? Clomid is supposed to start 2 weeks after last Inject? Why do people dose Clomid ED if it has. a long half life?

    I'm not opposed to HCG post cycle as well. However I have heard multiple times it is suppressive itself, which is the opposite of trying to get your body to work on its own in the first place.
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  6. Iv'e seen lots of back and forth on Clomid, anywhere from 12.5mg EOD to 100mg ED for PCT, but I honestly feel that's way too extreme.

    Will mk677 help preserve gains in PCT?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Iv'e seen lots of back and forth on Clomid, anywhere from 12.5mg EOD to 100mg ED for PCT, but I honestly feel that's way too extreme.

    Will mk677 help preserve gains in PCT?
    I liked to stack with nolva so Clomid can be used lower. Nolva 40/20/20/20 Clomid 50/25/25/25

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    I liked to stack with nolva so Clomid can be used lower. Nolva 40/20/20/20 Clomid 50/25/25/25
    50 mg/day of clomid is not "lower."

  9. I'm basically just deciding if I want to use Nolva, Clomid, or Ralox. One at a time preferably and the one that prevents estrogen from binding to the breast tissue while On Cycle the most effectivley. I think I am very estrogen sensitive.

    Could I possibly use 5mg of Nolva a day On Cycle to prevent binding or is an AI like exemestane good enough?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by CatSnake View Post
    50 mg/day of clomid is not "lower."
    People use Clomid at 100 when they don't stack with nolva. I'm my book 50 is not little but pretty much average.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Iv'e seen lots of back and forth on Clomid, anywhere from 12.5mg EOD to 100mg ED for PCT, but I honestly feel that's way too extreme.

    Will mk677 help preserve gains in PCT?
    MK677 can definitely help build LBM. it also increases water retention (by increasing aldosterone) and increases hunger (by increasing gastic motility). if you have a problem eating enough, then MK677 can rectify that pretty quick.... however, not the best compound for dieting, unless you are excellent at keeping your diet in check.

    as far as the half life of clomid, the issue is that it is made up of 2 compounds: one has a 12 hour half life and the other has a 5 day half life. as such, daily dosing is needed (FWIW, there is a product called Enclomid, which is made up of the short acting version).

    25 mg/day or 50 mg/EOD is the clinical dosing for clomid. many of us here have used that with great success and very little side effects..... one generally does not see side effects until they go up to 50 mg/day+

    Info on SERMs

  12. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    I'm basically just deciding if I want to use Nolva, Clomid, or Ralox. One at a time preferably and the one that prevents estrogen from binding to the breast tissue while On Cycle the most effectivley. I think I am very estrogen sensitive.

    Could I possibly use 5mg of Nolva a day On Cycle to prevent binding or is an AI like exemestane good enough?
    if you need to manage gyno, then I would use Ralox on cycle.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238910


    you also need an AI to control E2, as well (not a SERM)


    Nolva also works well for gyno, but there is a mild interaction between Nolva and Arimidex that lowers blood levels of arimidex.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...5-6691925a.pdf

  13. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Iv'e seen lots of back and forth on Clomid, anywhere from 12.5mg EOD to 100mg ED for PCT, but I honestly feel that's way too extreme.

    Will mk677 help preserve gains in PCT?
    If it were me...

    -Somatozine @ 25mg/day X 8 weeks
    -Clomid @ 25mg/day X 6 weeks
    -HCG @ 5000 "ish" iu spread over first 10 days of PCT
    -Aromasin @ 12.5mg/day X 4-6 weeks

    Honorable mentions for those that prefer to overkill PCT, I'd probably also recommend Synthetek products like the B-Complex shot and Syntheselen, which is a B-Complex based ATP product with promising research behind it. I really like that stuff.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    If it were me...

    -Somatozine @ 25mg/day X 8 weeks
    -Clomid @ 25mg/day X 6 weeks
    -HCG @ 5000 "ish" iu spread over first 10 days of PCT
    -Aromasin @ 12.5mg/day X 4-6 weeks

    Honorable mentions for those that prefer to overkill PCT, I'd probably also recommend Synthetek products like the B-Complex shot and Syntheselen, which is a B-Complex based ATP product with promising research behind it. I really like that stuff.
    Thank you, all I wanted was a PCT recommendation lol. PM for HCG would be appreciated. I Actually at the moment don't know if I should use ADEX or Aromasin on cycle?

    Is nolva really not as effective as Clomid for the HPTA restart?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Thank you, all I wanted was a PCT recommendation lol. PM for HCG would be appreciated. I Actually at the moment don't know if I should use ADEX or Aromasin on cycle?

    Is nolva really not as effective as Clomid for the HPTA restart?
    I prefer Aromasin but Adex is probably stronger initially. If you have a higher body fat %, Adex might be warranted. I don't usually need a ton of AI anymore unless I'm taking something like MENT so I am speaking from that POV.

    Aromasin is more expensive but I tend to see more consistent results with it and I'm less likely to crush estrogen levels over time with it. Adex works too though. This is not me bashing on Adex just stating a preference.

    Nolva is not as effective, but one could argue its a marginal difference in the grand scheme of things. The reason experts recommend Clomid over Nolva isn't directly releted to T levels but more to do with sperm quality. There is more than just T levels that we're trying to restore, you see. Clomid enhances FSH production significantly better than Nolva and that will lead to better sperm count and possibly better sperm life, but will likely not enhance sperm motility. HMG does a wonderful thing for overall sperm quality unlike the rest of them.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    If it were me...

    -Somatozine @ 25mg/day X 8 weeks
    -Clomid @ 25mg/day X 6 weeks
    -HCG @ 5000 "ish" iu spread over first 10 days of PCT
    -Aromasin @ 12.5mg/day X 4-6 weeks

    Honorable mentions for those that prefer to overkill PCT, I'd probably also recommend Synthetek products like the B-Complex shot and Syntheselen, which is a B-Complex based ATP product with promising research behind it. I really like that stuff.
    I actually really like your PCT. I'm just not a fan of all the sides I read about clomid. I think ill still take it, I just don't want ocular side effects. But I suspect at that dose I will be fine? Also when does one dose the HCG during the PCT? 1st day with clomid you mean? 500iu EOD is advised to me.

    I'm about 15% BF. What dose of ADEX or ASIN would you recommend while 'on'?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    I actually really like your PCT. I'm just not a fan of all the sides I read about clomid. I think ill still take it, I just don't want ocular side effects. But I suspect at that dose I will be fine? Also when does one dose the HCG during the PCT? 1st day with clomid you mean? 500iu EOD is advised to me.

    I'm about 15% BF. What dose of ADEX or ASIN would you recommend while 'on'?
    I have never experienced any occular side effects and have not ever heard of that even being a side effect of any significant portion or expectation for users. Not to say it doesn't happen but it almost sounds like a bunch of misinformation is floating around the internet about SARMS perhaps being conflated with SERMS. SARMs do in fact have some occular sides, particularly the S-4. But I have not heard or seen such a thing in reasonable doses of Clomid, especially such a mild dose as 25mg/day.

    As for HCG, I might would do 1000 EOD til I ran out or hit the two week mark - whichever comes first. Desensitization is a rather difficult thing to do and needs several weeks of use to cause it. 10 days of use would not be a problem and would only speed up recovery in a big way, particularly in bringing back the full size of the testicles and total sperm count.

    Adex - start with .25mg ED. Adjust as needed. If your joints start hurting and feel dry or you experience erectile dysfunction, back off. Of course adjust upward if you notice persistent nipple pain or knots forming.

    Aromasin - start with 12.5mg ED. Adjust as needed.

    Many choose not to do every day dosing but I've come to realize smaller, more frequent dosing is superior in just about any application you can think of, exception being towards a handful of unique compounds and scenarios.

  18. You guys have been the biggest help. Whatever happens, happens, but what have you guys found the most helpful for preserving a hairline?

    MK677 greatly helped regrow and make all of my hair much thicker. I use Nizoral now, and I understand you leave it in for the ingredient. Rogain is used as well. My hairline is actually not bad at all, but Is slightly receded. So the solution shaving my head would be MORE extreme than just protective measures. Thanks in advance guys!

  19. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I have never experienced any occular side effects and have not ever heard of that even being a side effect of any significant portion or expectation for users. Not to say it doesn't happen but it almost sounds like a bunch of misinformation is floating around the internet about SARMS perhaps being conflated with SERMS. SARMs do in fact have some occular sides, particularly the S-4. But I have not heard or seen such a thing in reasonable doses of Clomid, especially such a mild dose as 25mg/day.

    As for HCG, I might would do 1000 EOD til I ran out or hit the two week mark - whichever comes first. Desensitization is a rather difficult thing to do and needs several weeks of use to cause it. 10 days of use would not be a problem and would only speed up recovery in a big way, particularly in bringing back the full size of the testicles and total sperm count.

    Adex - start with .25mg ED. Adjust as needed. If your joints start hurting and feel dry or you experience erectile dysfunction, back off. Of course adjust upward if you notice persistent nipple pain or knots forming.

    Aromasin - start with 12.5mg ED. Adjust as needed.

    Many choose not to do every day dosing but I've come to realize smaller, more frequent dosing is superior in just about any application you can think of, exception being towards a handful of unique compounds and scenarios.
    ocular side effects (i.e. floaters) are a relatively common side effect from clomid, although I suspect it's very dose-dependent.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    You guys have been the biggest help. Whatever happens, happens, but what have you guys found the most helpful for preserving a hairline?

    MK677 greatly helped regrow and make all of my hair much thicker. I use Nizoral now, and I understand you leave it in for the ingredient. Rogain is used as well. My hairline is actually not bad at all, but Is slightly receded. So the solution shaving my head would be MORE extreme than just protective measures. Thanks in advance guys!
    MK677 helped you regrow hair??? You sure you didn't just start seeing the results of the Nizoral and Rogain?

    You are already doing what you need to do to preserve your hairline. TBol won't cause any hair loss, and lower doses of test should be okay with all of the localized DHT blockers, and AI that you will be using. If it falls out after all of that then you are going to go bald regardless and it is time to accept it. That means you have very DHT sensitive hair follicles.

    Also you mentioned you thought you were estrogen sensitive... what makes you think that you are estrogen sensitive? What have you done that increases estrogen enough for you have have an idea how sensitive you are to it? have you ever had gyno, do you have natural gyno?

    WAY TOO OFTEN people bloat for some reason, quite often eating too many carbs, or carbs at the wrong time or with too much salt, then think they are estrogen sensitive. Way too many things can increase water retention but every damn time I see someone holding water they want to turn to an AI and it is not beneficial to them. If you are holding water don't mess with hormones drink more fugging water!!!!! That is exactly how you increase the hormones that actually control how much water you are retaining. YES dropping estrogen will make you hold less water, even if you are actually dehydrated and barely holding on to reserves under the skin. Estrogen is way to important of a key player in anabolism and sexual characteristic for it to be the first thing people modify every time they are holding water.

    Quote Originally Posted by CatSnake View Post
    ocular side effects (i.e. floaters) are a relatively common side effect from clomid, although I suspect it's very dose-dependent.
    I got them when I was told to run it at 100/50/50/50, was the same time I turned into an overemotional 13 year old girl on her first period! Screw higher doses of clomid, 25mg a day is all you need if it is legit.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  21. Thanks mate @MrKleen73 . I say I am estrogen sensitive because I have a little pubertal Gyno on my left peck. When I took Ostarine the first time, I felt my sensitivity going up 4 weeks in on that same left side and it occasionally felt burny. I got my estrogen checked and estradiol was at 65. I figured since this is a low number but still above normal range, and already causing irritation I would need my AI to be careful.

    You're right about the hair loss, I think I will be fine though. The reason I say mk-677 helped is because even using rogain on the frontal part of my scalp, I never saw such results until the mk677 about one month in. noticeably more hair. iv'e been using rogain here for years. So it is what it is with that! I guess it could be the Nizoral, but I use it EOD really.

    EDIT: What counts as low dose Test? lol

  22. As far as cycle support, I'm an OL fan boy. It's between ar1micare pro or K1ngsguard. However how strong are the anti-estrogens in the ar1imicare pro? It seems to have more ingredients and seems better overall for what ill be running. It also has the addition of NAC for liver care. Nac VS Tudca?

    It's cardiovascular healthcare profile is on point though.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    As far as cycle support, I'm an OL fan boy. It's between ar1micare pro or K1ngsguard. However how strong are the anti-estrogens in the ar1imicare pro? It seems to have more ingredients and seems better overall for what ill be running. It also has the addition of NAC for liver care. Nac VS Tudca?

    It's cardiovascular healthcare profile is on point though.
    Tudca is great. What were you running again? Decided?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by CatSnake View Post
    ocular side effects (i.e. floaters) are a relatively common side effect from clomid, although I suspect it's very dose-dependent.
    What are floaters anyhow? It's impossible to say but that's why I was only going with 25mg as a max dose for clomid, I just want my eyes to be fine. Plenty of Nolva however, can run that 6 weeks at 20mg.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Thanks mate @MrKleen73 . I say I am estrogen sensitive because I have a little pubertal Gyno on my left peck. When I took Ostarine the first time, I felt my sensitivity going up 4 weeks in on that same left side and it occasionally felt burny. I got my estrogen checked and estradiol was at 65. I figured since this is a low number but still above normal range, and already causing irritation I would need my AI to be careful.

    You're right about the hair loss, I think I will be fine though. The reason I say mk-677 helped is because even using rogain on the frontal part of my scalp, I never saw such results until the mk677 about one month in. noticeably more hair. iv'e been using rogain here for years. So it is what it is with that! I guess it could be the Nizoral, but I use it EOD really.

    EDIT: What counts as low dose Test? lol
    To me 500 or under on a cycle. However it looks like between the dht blockers and an AI you really shouldn't have too much excess DHT. DHT is a byproduct of aromatization, and you are blocking that process with the AI so while controlling Estrogen you will also be somewhat controlling excess DHT as well.

    Very cool on the hair regrowth with the MK677... I just want mine to stop growing back out all together. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    What are floaters anyhow? It's impossible to say but that's why I was only going with 25mg as a max dose for clomid, I just want my eyes to be fine. Plenty of Nolva however, can run that 6 weeks at 20mg.
    You ever wake up and blink and it almost looks like there is something on your eye. Like something that is barely distorting your view. Almost like looking through little water droplet and you blink them away. That is basically it. I noticed them when my eyes were adjusting to levels of light or first opening them, after being closed for a bit, but it takes a couple blinks and clears up... Wasn't anything like something there at all times. Just something that happens occasionally anyway happening more frequently. It goes away when you stop the clomid and has been a known side effect for a long time.
    Nothing to worry about.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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