PCT Help

[DarkDescartes]

Hey guys

So for the last month I've been taking liquid torem and liquid stane as a second pct to help my body recover.

My libido has been shot and I've been dealing with anxiety and a not so high sense of well being.

I saw my urologist with the serms still in my system and I wanted to track my progress because I personally didn't feel like I was making any.

Here are the recent labs:
Prolactin: 3.3 (2-18 ng/mL)
E2: 27 (< OR = 39 pg/mL)
Test: 873 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FSH: 3.2 (1.6-8 mIU/mL)
LH: 3.1 (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL)

Granted the torem was still in my system but these numbers look solid so far.

On paper it looks like the drugs are doing what their supposed to do, so why do my testicles still feel atrophied and libido still feels shot.

I did contemplate doing hcg for a few weeks and then some clomid &a Nolva afterwards, however the hcg is definitely a last resort option.

What else could have a contributing factor to my symptoms. I'd like this to be all in my head but I know my semen load is low and as previously stated, testicles still feel small.

Any advice on where to go from here would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[uprightrows]

If you were still on a serm when these bloods were taken I would think that your LH would be higher, but your total test levels look fine. I would just let it ride and wait to see if symptoms improve or switch to just clomid, that has always worked for me for recovery

 

[DarkDescartes]

I've been letting it ride out for over a year since my last cycle in March of 2016.

My LH actually dropped from 4.1 to 3.1 when I was pre-serm in September, definitely confused about that.

I'm going to drop the serm starting today and wait the 4 weeks for it to clear go from there.

My testicles still feel atrophied however, do you think it's worth it to try some hcg before hoping on clomid and possibly Nolva?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

You should’ve had free test looked at as well imo

 

[CatSnake]

I am starting to wonder about Ostarine and libido issues..... for something that's supposedly not very suppressive, we're seeing a lot of guys have significant libido issues after taking it. hopefully somebody can figure that out....

anyway, DarkDescartes, your bloodwork looks solid. are you feeling any better at all yet?

I would assume HCG would help your testicular atrophy, but you would still need to hop back on a SERM afterwards to make sure your own LH/FSH recovers. I don't know if that will help your libido, though.

Do things like viagra, cialis, etc help?


EDIT: in doing some searching here on AM and elsewhere, there seem to be an abundance of threads of guys with libido issues after Ostarine. some have good bloodwork like yours, but some show significant suppression. I suspect there's something different about the SARMs that we don't really understand yet....

maybe this is related to DHT, similar to how some guys get ED from hair loss meds?

 

[CatSnake]

You should’ve had free test looked at as well imo

I wonder if this is connected to low DHT?

some of these post-Ostarine libido threads remind me of the guys having ED issues from stuff like Propecia, etc...

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_DHT.aspx

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I wonder if this is connected to low DHT?

some of these post-Ostarine libido threads remind me of the guys having ED issues from stuff like Propecia, etc...

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_DHT.aspx

I’m pretty sure high dht=low shbg and low shbg=higher free test. So low dht=high sbhg which would equate to less free test; so yea, low dht could be a factor. I think op should get shbg and free test checked; which im pretty sure I told him to check in a previous thread.

 

[Mcballz]

Hey guys

So for the last month I've been taking liquid torem and liquid stane as a second pct to help my body recover.

My libido has been shot and I've been dealing with anxiety and a not so high sense of well being.

I saw my urologist with the serms still in my system and I wanted to track my progress because I personally didn't feel like I was making any.

Here are the recent labs:
Prolactin: 3.3 (2-18 ng/mL)
E2: 27 (< OR = 39 pg/mL)
Test: 873 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FSH: 3.2 (1.6-8 mIU/mL)
LH: 3.1 (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL)

Granted the torem was still in my system but these numbers look solid so far.

On paper it looks like the drugs are doing what their supposed to do, so why do my testicles still feel atrophied and libido still feels shot.

I did contemplate doing hcg for a few weeks and then some clomid &a Nolva afterwards, however the hcg is definitely a last resort option.

What else could have a contributing factor to my symptoms. I'd like this to be all in my head but I know my semen load is low and as previously stated, testicles still feel small.

Any advice on where to go from here would be appreciated, thanks!

Yea those are some pretty nice looking numbers. Didn't get a FT number?

Why not go for a low dose proviron?
Like just 25mg a day.
It stimulates the testicles as well and help with libido.
My estro got high and my semen load decreased a lot to. The proviron has helped me quite a bit. Just 25mg daily.

 

[DarkDescartes]

I'll mention free test and shbg in my next visit for sure.

I suspected it was high E2 at first so we decided to test for that firstly and go from there.

He's a great urologist imo and he seems willing to work with me to get this issue resolved, however he thinks a lot of this is in my head, which I would bet my life savings that this isn't.

My appointment is on the 24th where I'll look to get more blood work done. I will definitely update you guys when those results come in

 

[DarkDescartes]

I feel pretty good just not complete if that makes sense.

I have energy and I work out regularly. I'm not super motivated to go to the gym but I'm not sure if that's a hormonal issue or if it's just mental fatigue for doing it 5+ years.

My urologist prescribed cialis at 5mg per day on the 5th but it didn't make much of a difference if any in my opinion.

I would hope that my test levels and such stay around this same level once the serms clear out, but I know there's still something off.

It may be DHT or SHBG related so I'll make sure to mention it on my next visit.

And I definitely know I would need to hop on a serm after hcg, I just want to know if it'd worth the risk to try hcg in the first place or try and reserves atrophy through clomid and or Nolva, etc.

Let me know you're opinion guys, thanks!

 

[CatSnake]

I feel pretty good just not complete if that makes sense.

I have energy and I work out regularly. I'm not super motivated to go to the gym but I'm not sure if that's a hormonal issue or if it's just mental fatigue for doing it 5+ years.

My urologist prescribed cialis at 5mg per day on the 5th but it didn't make much of a difference if any in my opinion.

I would hope that my test levels and such stay around this same level once the serms clear out, but I know there's still something off.

It may be DHT or SHBG related so I'll make sure to mention it on my next visit.

And I definitely know I would need to hop on a serm after hcg, I just want to know if it'd worth the risk to try hcg in the first place or try and reserves atrophy through clomid and or Nolva, etc.

Let me know you're opinion guys, thanks!

good luck man.

I'm genuinely stumped on the whole thing, and wish I get give you an answer that I know would help. your bloodwork looks solid, so the only thing I can suggest is echo what AnabolicGuru said and get DHT, free test and SHBG checked. Also, have you had vitamin D or thyroid checked?

FWIW, you might wanna lower your volume right now if you're not really motivated to train right now.... easier to gut out 3 sessions a week vs 6+. Just a thought....

 

[Mcballz]

I'll mention free test and shbg in my next visit for sure.

I suspected it was high E2 at first so we decided to test for that firstly and go from there.

He's a great urologist imo and he seems willing to work with me to get this issue resolved, however he thinks a lot of this is in my head, which I would bet my life savings that this isn't.

My appointment is on the 24th where I'll look to get more blood work done. I will definitely update you guys when those results come in

I really despise being told something is all in my head. Like I have super human powers to be able to manifest a problem for myself that simply doesn't exist.
If it was all in my head I could think it all away with one thought. Because I WANT to feel better desperately. And I'm sure you do to.

However the other thing is. It very well may be "all in your head" that's the problem. Your brain isn't getting enough of the proper hormone, or too much or any other imbalance ect...

People get confused when they hear something like nicotine is a "psychological addiction"
That doesn't mean the withdrawal doesn't exist in reality. It means the effects occur in the brain like a drop in dopamine.
Causing depression and aggravation.
That doesn't mean we can throw our hands up and say "it's all in my head" and walk off whistling perfectly fine.
Guess what? There's still a chemical imbalance in the brain.
I get so ****ing pist off about this because my brother is a dumb ass that says my low testosterone problem was "all in my head"
Like that means I shouldn't seek treatment for needing a ton of Viagra at 29 years old.


Anyways it actually may just be your brain got adjusted to a higher level of dopamine on cycle. And you're going through a mild depression.

 

[DarkDescartes]

Thanks catsnake.

After seeing this bloodwork I'm just as stumped as you are.

I even tried some proviron for 2 weeks around 25-50mg per day and it improved my libido and mood but my testicles unfortunately atrophied further I believe.

Hopefully these next rounds of bloods locate the problem, otherwise I might try the hcg I have a hop on a serm right after.

I stopped taking torem but I started back up to help after the proviron.

If I choose to use hcg, do I need to wait the 4 weeks to clear the serms out of my system before I start, or can I stop taking the serm and do it right away, picking back up after I'm done with the hcg?

 

[DarkDescartes]

I tried proviron but I think it doesn't work for me personally.

It did help my libido and mood but I think my testicles have shrunk from my 2 week use of it, so it may not be beneficial for me.

I'm definitely considering another PCT with hcg kickstart and 6-8 weeks of clomid/Nolva.

My question is:

If I take hcg, do I need to have previous serms I took completely clear my system before starting hcg, or can I just start it whenever and pick serms back up afterwards.

 

[DarkDescartes]

UPDATE

Most recent labs as of 10/30/2017:

Prolactin: 6.5 (2-18 ng/mL)
E2: 55 (< OR = 39 pg/mL) HIGH
Test: 783 (250-827 ng/dL)
FSH: 2.5 (1.6-8 mIU/mL)
LH: 5.0 (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL)
TESTOSTERONE, FREE: 86.9 (46.0-224.0 pg/mL)
SHBG: 50 (10-50 nmol/L)

The Urologist was of no help other than these test and prescribing Anastrozle for 2 months. He's more insistent its mental rather than phsycial and i keep on reassuring him its not.

I'll be going to an Endocrinologist next week to get a more in depth look into my body.

I still have hcg on hand as a fail safe because my testicles are still undersized despite my test levels, but hopeufully it wont have to come to me using it.

Any suggestions on where to go or what to try from here?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Shbg is on the high side, free test is relatively low in comparison to your total test (which is a result of your high shbg) and your estradiol if obviously high. I’d wait to see the endocrinologist; maybe they’ll be more helpful.

 

[CatSnake]

Shbg is on the high side, free test is relatively low in comparison to your total test (which is a result of your high shbg) and your estradiol if obviously high. I’d wait to see the endocrinologist; maybe they’ll be more helpful.

I agree.

if it was longer than a week, I'd say to start the A-dex, but maybe the Endo will have better suggestions.

the A-dex should lower your E2 and SHBG, but you've had good bloodwork before, so I don't think that's the complete issue here.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I agree.

if it was longer than a week, I'd say to start the A-dex, but maybe the Endo will have better suggestions.

the A-dex should lower your E2 and SHBG, but you've had good bloodwork before, so I don't think that's the complete issue here.

I wasn’t saying to not take the arimidex; I think he should too, but a small dose

 

[DarkDescartes]

What’s up guys?

It’s been awhile and I thought I’d come here and give and update and also get some questions answered.

I don’t recall where I left off with all of you, but I think i mentioned that I saw an endo since my urologist was a waste (besides prescribing me arimidex).

The endo is cool and actually listened to me when I said I’m not fully right.

She tried to prescribe me clomid but the insurance company shot that down. She wanted to give me 25mg of clomid for 6 months.

After that I hit up a friend who I’ve known to have generic clomid and I bought a months worth and started taking it that day which was sometime in late November past Thanksgiving.

I also put in an online order with Hipo and got myself clomid, nolva, and some proviron for libido.

My order came in the 26th just as I finished up my generic clomid and I started on some nolva and the pharma clomid I got.

Unfortunately through out all of this I didn’t feel any difference or changes, nor any significant increase in testicle size.

Today I’m stopping it all for about 4-6 weeks. I’m going to let my body reset and start fresh in February.

In the meantime I’ll be take 1mg arimidex everyday like I was originally prescribed and see if lowering my estrogen will bring about change.

Also I have this theory about take HCG. I don’t think my testicles are at their full size which could be the hindrance I need to address. Do you think I’d be smart to try hcg then the clomid nolva combo in the future should things not pan out?

Let me know guys and thanks for the help as always!