DMZ vs M Sten vs Epistane vs Halodrol vs Mithras - Best for strength and mass?!

[ZachH]

I have all orals listed in the title, never ran any of them yet and trying to figure out what to run for next cycle for most MUSCLE mass (not water weight that will leave in PCT) and most strength. I know everyone is different, im just trying to see if there is a majority vote for the above compounds. Ill try to run whatever i choose for 6 weeks as a kicker to my cycle plus tons of support supps for the liver and blood pressure.

Thanks in advance

 

[Juicedeez utz]

DMZ

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I've only used epistane and methylstenbolone. Epistane will be better for nice dry gains, the strength is fair, and as long as you keep an aromatize inhibitor on hand, you should be fine imo. Msten was also good, it was better in regards to strength. The weight I gained was probably more water than muscle, so if you want dry gains that will stay, it's probably not the best imo. I'd go with epistane, it's tried and true; many aas users will say its the only "ph" they will use. Mithras seemed to have mixed feedback btw; it seemed to be good for strength primarily.

 

[Godstrength]

Dmz, it has it all. Strength, dry gains and slaps on the size. Its king of those you listed. I've run them all w the exception of msten.

 

[dezzy84]

You will gain the most weight and strength from Dymethazine. I got noticeably stronger and put on 10lbs.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

You will gain the most weight and strength from Dymethazine. I got noticeably stronger and put on 10lbs.

But how much of it was water? Epistane is pretty easily maintainable given its dry nature, although I personally cant compare it to dmz

 

[ZachH]

Right now DMZ is winning the votes... More input please!!

 

[dezzy84]

But how much of it was water? Epistane is pretty easily maintainable given its dry nature, although I personally cant compare it to dmz

I've tried Epistane and DMZ. Epistane I wasn't super impressed with, had to push the dose. Just a milder compound in my experience. DMZ is not wet by any means, but it gives a fuller look to the muscle like superdrol. If your diet is good you won't have water retention.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I've tried Epistane and DMZ. Epistane I wasn't super impressed with, had to push the dose. Just a milder compound in my experience. DMZ is not wet by any means, but it gives a fuller look to the muscle like superdrol. If your diet is good you won't have water retention.

I'd try it again man; there's always the possibility that you could've gotten bunk/underdosed stuff. I put on more weight from epi than msten, and the results were much dryer. How many mg of epi did you take and what brand was it?

 

[dezzy84]

I started at like 40mg worked my way up to 60 mg. It took longer to kick in for me, and it was mild. Not a bad compound. I used lgi epi-10. Only ran it once for 6 weeks.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I started at like 40mg worked my way up to 60 mg. It took longer to kick in for me, and it was mild. Not a bad compound. I used lgi epi-10. Only ran it once for 6 weeks.

Hmmmm. Either you don't respond to greatly from it or it was underdosed/bunk. Havoc at 20-30mg was pretty strong in my experience; I gained around 16.5lbs, given it was my first cycle. I'll be running epistane again soon but at a higher dose and longer cycle.

 

[dezzy84]

I got one bottle of havoc. I'll have to win it this summer.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I got one bottle of havoc. I'll have to win it this summer.

From predator?

 

[dezzy84]

From predator?

No RPN.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

No RPN.

I was asking if you bought it from predator. They are the only people I know of selling legit havoc (im pretty sure rpn produces it exclusively for them)

 

[dezzy84]

I was asking if you bought it from predator. They are the only people I know of selling legit havoc (im pretty sure rpn produces it exclusively for them)

Oh gotcha. This is an old bottle, can't remember where I bought it. I've heard good things about Preditor never used them.

 

[jgntyce]

OP, for your cycle support, CEL CYCLE ASSIST and CEL TUDCA will provide the protection you need for all the aforementioned products you listed.

 

[Ironpirate]

You can get great results from msten if you're eating clean. If diet is a problem i'd go with epi or dmz. In my experience 30mg ed for 5 weeks of msten and a low carb diet brought great strength and size gains

 

[ZachH]

Thanks everyone keep it coming. Kinda leaning towards dmz at this point but still open to more opinions

 

[yates84]

Halo had the best strength gains from any other ph I've used before and have used your whole list. Gains weren't huge but strength was incredible. Epistane gave me the best gains that stuck around post cycle out of your list. A halo and epi stack would probably be goat

 

[ZachH]

Halo had the best strength gains from any other ph I've used before and have used your whole list. Gains weren't huge but strength was incredible. Epistane gave me the best gains that stuck around post cycle out of your list. A halo and epi stack would probably be goat

I really wanted to do a halo and epi stack... But everyone i ask about it says "too much methyl" or "too dry of a stack even with a test base" but ive seen countless epi and halo stacked logs and read an article on nutriverse website recommending a halo and epi stack.

You think it would be gtg? I have tons of support supps for liver and blood pressure, probably overkill honestly but id rather be safe than sorry. Ill be running ar1macare pro, Aegis (PPC plus tudca), SAMe, extra Tudca, standardized milk thistle, hawthorn extract, garlic extract, celery seed extract, evomuse krillipid balance krill oil, ultra epa/dha fish oil, orange triad plus extra cissus for joints, controlled labs greens and reds.

So i should be set on support lol. I wanted to run whatever i choose for 45 days as a kicker to my cycle, how would you recommend dosing an epi/halo stack for the 6 weeks? Something like

Epi- 30/30/30/40/40/40
Halo - 50/75/75/100/100/100 (higher?)

? Thanks man!

 

[ZachH]

Halo had the best strength gains from any other ph I've used before and have used your whole list. Gains weren't huge but strength was incredible. Epistane gave me the best gains that stuck around post cycle out of your list. A halo and epi stack would probably be goat

Here is my complete cycle layout. Lmk what you think, if an epi/halo stack would fit nicely into this cycle. I know you're not a fan of 4 andro lol but i am very estrogen sensitive so trest is a nightmare for me even with exem.

Weeks 2-10 NOS Labs Nor Delta 6 TD 2ml/day
Weeks 2-10 Alpha Gainz Androsterone TD 2ml/day
Weeks 2-10 Hardrock 1 andro 330/day
Weeks 1-10 Vicous Labs Freak Show 4 andro 450/day
Weeks 1-10 Vicious Labs Dark Carnival Epiandro 900-1200/day
Weeks 1-6 OL Halo/ LGI Epi (dosing?)
Weeks 1-10 ZOO mk677 20mg/day

Support Supps: Ar1macare Pro, Aegis, Extra Tudca, SAMe, milk thistle extract, Hawthorn Extract, Celery Extract, Garlic extract, Dandelion Root, Ultra EPA/DHA Fish Oil, Evomuse Krillipid Balance krill oil, Cialis, Exemestane, Orange triad plus cissus, controlled labs greens/reds.

 

[yates84]

Here is my complete cycle layout. Lmk what you think, if an epi/halo stack would fit nicely into this cycle. I know you're not a fan of 4 andro lol but i am very estrogen sensitive so trest is a nightmare for me even with exem.

Weeks 2-10 NOS Labs Nor Delta 6 TD 2ml/day
Weeks 2-10 Alpha Gainz Androsterone TD 2ml/day
Weeks 2-10 Hardrock 1 andro 330/day
Weeks 1-10 Vicous Labs Freak Show 4 andro 450/day
Weeks 1-10 Vicious Labs Dark Carnival Epiandro 900-1200/day
Weeks 1-6 OL Halo/ LGI Epi (dosing?)
Weeks 1-10 ZOO mk677 20mg/day

Support Supps: Ar1macare Pro, Aegis, Extra Tudca, SAMe, milk thistle extract, Hawthorn Extract, Celery Extract, Garlic extract, Dandelion Root, Ultra EPA/DHA Fish Oil, Evomuse Krillipid Balance krill oil, Cialis, Exemestane, Orange triad plus cissus, controlled labs greens/reds.

Halo and epi together solo would be fine, too much methyl sounds silly. You know what to do when it comes to liver protection etc so it's fine imo. Now, adding that to everything else you have going on is way too many compounds all at once, would be hard to keep up with when to take what pill let alone where any side effects would be coming from if they came up.

 

[ZachH]

Halo and epi together solo would be fine, too much methyl sounds silly. You know what to do when it comes to liver protection etc so it's fine imo. Now, adding that to everything else you have going on is way too many compounds all at once, would be hard to keep up with when to take what pill let alone where any side effects would be coming from if they came up.

Ive ran 1/4/epiandro before and was side feee besides some slight lethargy. Thats basically the only other stuff i have included is the above andro stack plus nos labs nor delta 6 transdermal. You think its too much? Im very OCD about timing of pills i will have a written out schedule on my fridge lol on any given normal day not on cycle i take about 30 pills a day. Just so used to it at this point. But i trust your advice. Besides it being too complicated timing the pills, you see any other problems with it? With the above layout would you just stick with 1 methyl compound and not the epi/halo stack?

As far as epi/halo stack dosing is what i posted above for it appropriate for the 45 day time frame? Or how high would you go on halo i know most recommend 75-125 a day

 

[yates84]

Ive ran 1/4/epiandro before and was side feee besides some slight lethargy. Thats basically the only other stuff i have included is the above andro stack plus nos labs nor delta 6 transdermal. You think its too much? Im very OCD about timing of pills i will have a written out schedule on my fridge lol on any given normal day not on cycle i take about 30 pills a day. Just so used to it at this point. But i trust your advice. Besides it being too complicated timing the pills, you see any other problems with it? With the above layout would you just stick with 1 methyl compound and not the epi/halo stack?

As far as epi/halo stack dosing is what i posted above for it appropriate for the 45 day time frame? Or how high would you go on halo i know most recommend 75-125 a day

It's all just not necessary bro. Really won't increase gains with the more stuff you add in. More simple is more better imo

 

[Godstrength]

It's all just not necessary bro. Really won't increase gains with the more stuff you add in. More simple is more better imo

I'm with Yates... You have way too much stuff in there

 

[ZachH]

It's all just not necessary bro. Really won't increase gains with the more stuff you add in. More simple is more better imo

Okay brother. I just have a lot of stuff on hand and got it for great prices so it wont be breaking the bank per say. I dont get that many runs a year just trying to make the most of it lol. I get sometimes simpler is better. But if i so stack epi and halo what dosing do you recommend stacked?

Epi- 30/30/30/40/40/40
Halo 50/75/75/100/100/100

Or go higher sooner on the halo?

 

[Godstrength]

Okay brother. I just have a lot of stuff on hand and got it for great prices so it wont be breaking the bank per say. I dont get that many runs a year just trying to make the most of it lol. I get sometimes simpler is better. But if i so stack epi and halo what dosing do you recommend stacked?

Epi- 30/30/30/40/40/40
Halo 50/75/75/100/100/100

Or go higher sooner on the halo?

That's perfect, run it with a base like 4andro (trest would be better imo).

If you want to run the nor all the way through and keep the mk677. Everything else I would toss out of the cycle.

 

[yates84]

Okay brother. I just have a lot of stuff on hand and got it for great prices so it wont be breaking the bank per say. I dont get that many runs a year just trying to make the most of it lol. I get sometimes simpler is better. But if i so stack epi and halo what dosing do you recommend stacked?

Epi- 30/30/30/40/40/40
Halo 50/75/75/100/100/100

Or go higher sooner on the halo?

I don't see any problem with that dosing protocol. Trust me, I used to be the same way and did a few over complicated cycles and it was more side effects than gains. Trust me lol I know what you mean by a whole bunch of stuff laying around but in the end, it's probably not gonna be worth it. Just my experience, my friend.

 

[ZachH]

I don't see any problem with that dosing protocol. Trust me, I used to be the same way and did a few over complicated cycles and it was more side effects than gains. Trust me lol I know what you mean by a whole bunch of stuff laying around but in the end, it's probably not gonna be worth it. Just my experience, my friend.

Thank you for your input and time man.

The main reason behind the adding in more stuff is because i wanted this cycle to be at least 10-12 weeks long and obviously cant run a methyl longer than 6 weeks or so. Thats why i staggered started the Nor delta 6 and 1 andro, because they both take about 3 weeks to kick in, which would be kicking in about the time the methyl run is over. That would give me an extended period of "gains" after the 6 week methyl run is over. I dont want my gains to end at 6 weeks, i wanted to keep breaking plateaus and gaining mass and strength through all 10-12 weeks of the run.

 

[fueledpassion]

Not much I can add to this other than DMZ is cleary the strongest of the bunch. MSten is pretty strong too and some respond better to it than DMZ... But let me throw something out there...

Do them BOTH. I can say that 20mg of each is a pretty stout package. If you changed absolutely nothing at all, you should at least see 6-8lbs of weight gain and a solid 10% increase in strength (maybe as much as 15%) on compound movements. Obviously without a proper diet, you won't keep that mass and regardless of the diet the strength will not stay. When I tried this combo years ago, it was the first time I was able to squat 315 X 15-16 reps with good form which was up from 6-8 reps prior to. In fact, it was the second day I started the cycle when I hit that number.

That being said, eating copious protein and carbs and taking the two together for 5 weeks or so would be a strong cycle that even the least disciplined individual should expect a fair amount of change from.

But taking TUDCA, Liv52 and drinking 2G water daily would be mandatory in order to keep your appetite though.

 

[fueledpassion]

Thank you for your input and time man.

The main reason behind the adding in more stuff is because i wanted this cycle to be at least 10-12 weeks long and obviously cant run a methyl longer than 6 weeks or so. Thats why i staggered started the Nor delta 6 and 1 andro, because they both take about 3 weeks to kick in, which would be kicking in about the time the methyl run is over. That would give me an extended period of "gains" after the 6 week methyl run is over. I dont want my gains to end at 6 weeks, i wanted to keep breaking plateaus and gaining mass and strength through all 10-12 weeks of the run.

After reading this, you should go the way of the needle, bro.

I don't say that flippantly either - a Test only cycle @ 500- 750mg X 10 weeks would net FAR better gains and would only need a modest amount of AI to control estrogen. You'd use the same PCT as you would with all those nut-crushing orals, too.

 

[ZachH]

After reading this, you should go the way of the needle, bro.

I don't say that flippantly either - a Test only cycle @ 500- 750mg X 10 weeks would net FAR better gains and would only need a modest amount of AI to control estrogen. You'd use the same PCT as you would with all those nut-crushing orals, too.

Lol i knew someone would say it. I know man. I know its better, cheaper, and safer/less taxing on the body but unfortunately the wifey is not okay with that option yet. Ill get her there eventually though lol a lot of my friends who pin have tried lecturing her and shes almost there... Just needs a little more push and time and she will get there. For now this is what i got to work with though. Im not one to do stuff behind her back either or hide stuff.

 

[yates84]

Shorter cycle means less off time means new cycle quicker. Get your gains and be done with it. The longer your cycle the harder your body fights back to stop you from putting on any more mass. Cortisol, shbg, myostatin, etc are all working against you. 12 week cycles are for oils and I think oral cycles should be 6 to 8 weeks max.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

The only thing I’d bother adding to the epistane and halodrol would be a test base.

 

[fueledpassion]

Shorter cycle means less off time means new cycle quicker. Get your gains and be done with it. The longer your cycle the harder your body fights back to stop you from putting on any more mass. Cortisol, shbg, myostatin, etc are all working against you. 12 week cycles are for oils and I think oral cycles should be 6 to 8 weeks max.

This is totally anecdotal, but I believe GH/Insulin staves off those resistors you just listed. It would seem that mass gains while taking GH are considerably more linear in fashion and the growth period seems stretched out.

Has nothing to do with this thread but has everything to do with your point.

 

[ZachH]

This is totally anecdotal, but I believe GH/Insulin staves off those resistors you just listed. It would seem that mass gains while taking GH are considerably more linear in fashion and the growth period seems stretched out.

Has nothing to do with this thread but has everything to do with your point.

This doesn't pertain to mk677 as well does it? Ive been on mk for about 2.5 months and will be on for another 5 to 6 months. Please elaborate because im not fully understanding your point

 

[fueledpassion]

This doesn't pertain to mk677 as well does it? Ive been on mk for about 2.5 months and will be on for another 5 to 6 months. Please elaborate because im not fully understanding your point

I PM'd you so as to not get off topic but the quick answer is yes, my anecdotes confirm this is also true with MK, or at least Somatozine.

Point is, longer cycle are essential with the big three (Test/GH/Slin) because the growth seems to be slow and linear in nature and does not taper off after 6-8 weeks- you just have to keep eating and training but they keep coming. Genetics comes into play here as well but I'm saying that when I eat a lot while taking those items I grow and when I don't take those items together its a fight to keep mass and the calorie requirements go way, way up.

 

[ZachH]

Halo had the best strength gains from any other ph I've used before and have used your whole list. Gains weren't huge but strength was incredible. Epistane gave me the best gains that stuck around post cycle out of your list. A halo and epi stack would probably be goat

Yates quick question for you brother. Because of the chance of rebound gyno with epistane, ive read your entire PCT thread and gyno prevention/reversal but my question is once im done with 30 days of clomid, and continue to dose exemestane after im done with clomid would it be beneficial to dose ralox daily for a few weeks after clomid and exem like 12.5mg E3D? If so what should my daily dose of ralox be and for how long after clomid? Like 2 to 4 weeks?

 

[medinacirilo]

Sorry quote wrong

 

[medinacirilo]

Lol i knew someone would say it. I know man. I know its better, cheaper, and safer/less taxing on the body but unfortunately the wifey is not okay with that option yet. Ill get her there eventually though lol a lot of my friends who pin have tried lecturing her and shes almost there... Just needs a little more push and time and she will get there. For now this is what i got to work with though. Im not one to do stuff behind her back either or hide stuff.

I showed my wife Bigger Stronger Faster* and it completely changed her view on pinning. I still haven’t jumped on the bike (yet) but she’s totally cool and understands what those oral cycles are about. And if (when) I do, i don’t have to hide it from her.

 

[Mzakif]

Yates quick question for you brother. Because of the chance of rebound gyno with epistane, ive read your entire PCT thread and gyno prevention/reversal but my question is once im done with 30 days of clomid, and continue to dose exemestane after im done with clomid would it be beneficial to dose ralox daily for a few weeks after clomid and exem like 12.5mg E3D? If so what should my daily dose of ralox be and for how long after clomid? Like 2 to 4 weeks?

Where is that post?

 

[Renew1]

Where is that post?

Here's his PCT thread, bro....

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/276620-post-cycle-therapy.html

 

[Mzakif]

Thanks bro