T3, why some say yes it's awesome and some say don't touch it ?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    iirc isn't 25mcg equivalent to endogenous levels?
    Pretty much. There was a good article/study that compared the typical natural diurnal range vs what is expected via exogenous dosing. Obviously with exogenous dosing youre getting a relatively consistent quantity, as opposed to sub-optimal natural on-cycle levels (Spurfy had some good data on this aspect, too).


  2. Quote Originally Posted by justhere4comm View Post
    "Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    The human body naturally endogenously manufactures a T3 dosage of approximately 30mcg per day. Hence, this is why many users who wish to ‘play it safe’ by starting off at a Cytomel dosage of 25mcg per day are actually taking a step backwards in progress rather than moving forwards. T3 doses of 25mcg per day are actually less than is normally manufactured by the human body. This attempt at ‘playing it safe’ by utilizing a very small T3 dosage at the beginning is the result of the fear that has been propagated by individuals among the performance enhancing drug using community that T3 is a very dangerous drug, when in reality it is no more dangerous than most other hormonal drugs, such as anabolic steroids.

    What also needs to be addressed in this profile is the concept of a slow titration upwards (a slow ramping upwards) of T3 doses, which has become an extremely popular practice that is for the most part unnecessary. The claims made by individuals among the performance enhancing drug using community concerning the ramping up of the Cytomel dosage is that the thyroid gland is a very sensitive gland that can potentially become permanently shut down if Cytomel doses are raised either too fast, or too high. These claims, once again, are wrong and are not supported by clinical evidence. For over 2 decades, one of the myths that has persisted in regards to T3 has been the myth of permanent thyroid gland damage.

    The truth and reality of the matter is that the thyroid gland operates just like any other endocrine gland in the human body. The thyroid gland, in fact, has been found to be one of the endocrine glands that possesses the slowest response to the negative feedback loop. It has been found in a couple of particular clinical studies that patients who were placed on T3 for many years had recovered their endogenous thyroid hormone production within a matter of weeks, and in fact some of these patients were administered T3 for thirty years after having been removed from the medication due to being misdiagnosed[1] [2]. All test subjects within the aforementioned clinical studies recovered their thyroid function within very short time periods.

    The study specifically reads,

    The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable. After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal. Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks.Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.1

    Therefore, claims among the athletic and bodybuilding community that T3 can or will cause permanent thyroid gland damage should not be believed at all. These are merely conjecture and rumors that have been developed over the previous 2 decades or so.

    Medical Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    For the treatment of hypothyroidism, the normal medical Cytomel dosage is that of a starting dose of 25mcg per day. Following this, the patient assesses his or her reactions and tolerance to the drug and adjusts their Cytomel dosage by no more than 25mcg per day. The average maintenance T3 doses lie between 25 – 75mcg per day. Once the patient’s desired optimal dose is achieved, this dose remains steadily administered for the remainder of therapy.

    Cytomel (T3) Dosage For Fat Loss

    Bodybuilders and athletes who wish to use T3 for its weight loss and fat loss effects normally begins with a T3 dosage of 25 – 50mcg per day, and tolerance is assessed. Tolerance relates to the experience of metabolism and fat burning effects, as well as the temperature increase associated with it. Every individual will respond in a different manner and a different intensity to any one given Cytomel dosage, so it must be understood that a T3 dose of 50mcg for one individual might elicit steady fat loss, but that same 50mcg dose might not do very much for another.

    100% AnavarOnce tolerance is assessed after remaining at a 50mcg dose for a day or two, the individual should then increase their Cytomel dosage by an additional 25mcg every day (or every other day, depending on the individual’s experience) until a peak optimal dose is achieved. The typical peak dose for most male bodybuilders and athletes tends to lie in the range of 75 – 100mcg per day. Some have even ventured as high as 125mcg per day, though this is on the high end and is not normally recommended.

    Female Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    For the most part, the female response to the effects of Cytomel (T3) is the exact same as the male response. The only major difference in Cytomel dosage for females is that of the difference in body weight and mass. Females tend to be of a lower total size, weight, and body mass than men and therefore may tend to be more sensitive to a given T3 dosage.

    The peak effective dose for most females should be in the range of approximately 50 – 75mcg per day, with 75mcg being at the uppermost high end.

    Proper Administration and Timing of Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    T3 exhibits a half-life of 2.5 days, and it is therefore completely unnecessary to split up T3 doses throughout the day, as ingestion of the complete daily Cytomel dosage in the morning is adequate. It is also not completely necessary to titrate (slowly ramp up) the Cytomel dosage upwards. Initially, for the very first use of T3 for an individual, it is recommended to do so in order to obtain a feel for the compound’s effects as well as to gauge the increasing body heat output, as well as any possible muscle loss.

    Once an individual is aware of his or her full effective peak optimal dose, it is generally not necessary to slowly ramp up T3 doses, and that starting at the known optimal Cytomel dosage should present no issues.

    By the same admission, it is unnecessary to slowly titrate T3 doses downwards at the conclusion of a T3 cycle. The common myth used to be that upon sudden cessation, the thyroid gland can become damaged permanently. This is, once again, simply not true due to the research referenced earlier. It is in fact the best course of action to immediately eliminate all T3 doses at the conclusion of use so as to allow the thyroid hormone to restore function as soon as possible. As long as exogenous thyroid hormones are being administered, the thyroid hormone cannot recover due to the negative feedback loop. This applies even when slowly ramping down Cytomel doses. It is therefore best to cease administration immediately so as to allow function to restore as soon as possible, just as with the use of anabolic steroids.

    Expectations and Results from Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    T3 is a potent stimulator of the body’s metabolism at the cellular level that does not discriminate between the different substrates being utilized for energy (protein, carbohydrates, and fats). Therefore, it is important to understand that the fat loss can sometimes be dramatic, and if T3 is utilized without anabolic steroids beyond a certain dose (approximately more than 50mcg of T3), muscle loss can occur. The greater the T3 dosage, the greater and quicker the muscle loss can occur.

    It is also important for the reader to know and understand that excessive doses of anabolic steroids are absolutely unnecessary for the preservation of muscle during T3 use. A total weekly anabolic steroid use of 300 – 500mg per week (any anabolic steroid) should be more than sufficient for the preservation of muscle and the retention of nitrogen during the use of higher T3 doses. Stronger anabolic steroids such as Trenbolone or Winstrol will stave off muscle loss from T3 at only 200mg per week. The use of excessive anabolic steroid doses merely for the purpose of muscle preservation during T3 use is completely unnecessary."

    [1] Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

    [2] Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN
    I can tell you no pharmacist has ever had an issue with my T3 doses for maintenance even with the T4. Psychiatric research studies have examined 75-150 mcg T3 daily for months at a time. These studies have been done over the past few decades and most patients have no side effects and maintain normal TSH levels. But if you don’t have refractory or resistant depression, there is no reason to go over 75 mcg for T3.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by justhere4comm View Post
    "Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    The human body naturally endogenously manufactures a T3 dosage of approximately 30mcg per day. Hence, this is why many users who wish to ‘play it safe’ by starting off at a Cytomel dosage of 25mcg per day are actually taking a step backwards in progress rather than moving forwards. T3 doses of 25mcg per day are actually less than is normally manufactured by the human body. This attempt at ‘playing it safe’ by utilizing a very small T3 dosage at the beginning is the result of the fear that has been propagated by individuals among the performance enhancing drug using community that T3 is a very dangerous drug, when in reality it is no more dangerous than most other hormonal drugs, such as anabolic steroids.

    What also needs to be addressed in this profile is the concept of a slow titration upwards (a slow ramping upwards) of T3 doses, which has become an extremely popular practice that is for the most part unnecessary. The claims made by individuals among the performance enhancing drug using community concerning the ramping up of the Cytomel dosage is that the thyroid gland is a very sensitive gland that can potentially become permanently shut down if Cytomel doses are raised either too fast, or too high. These claims, once again, are wrong and are not supported by clinical evidence. For over 2 decades, one of the myths that has persisted in regards to T3 has been the myth of permanent thyroid gland damage.

    The truth and reality of the matter is that the thyroid gland operates just like any other endocrine gland in the human body. The thyroid gland, in fact, has been found to be one of the endocrine glands that possesses the slowest response to the negative feedback loop. It has been found in a couple of particular clinical studies that patients who were placed on T3 for many years had recovered their endogenous thyroid hormone production within a matter of weeks, and in fact some of these patients were administered T3 for thirty years after having been removed from the medication due to being misdiagnosed[1] [2]. All test subjects within the aforementioned clinical studies recovered their thyroid function within very short time periods.

    The study specifically reads,

    The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable. After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal. Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks.Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.1

    Therefore, claims among the athletic and bodybuilding community that T3 can or will cause permanent thyroid gland damage should not be believed at all. These are merely conjecture and rumors that have been developed over the previous 2 decades or so.

    Medical Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    For the treatment of hypothyroidism, the normal medical Cytomel dosage is that of a starting dose of 25mcg per day. Following this, the patient assesses his or her reactions and tolerance to the drug and adjusts their Cytomel dosage by no more than 25mcg per day. The average maintenance T3 doses lie between 25 – 75mcg per day. Once the patient’s desired optimal dose is achieved, this dose remains steadily administered for the remainder of therapy.

    Cytomel (T3) Dosage For Fat Loss

    Bodybuilders and athletes who wish to use T3 for its weight loss and fat loss effects normally begins with a T3 dosage of 25 – 50mcg per day, and tolerance is assessed. Tolerance relates to the experience of metabolism and fat burning effects, as well as the temperature increase associated with it. Every individual will respond in a different manner and a different intensity to any one given Cytomel dosage, so it must be understood that a T3 dose of 50mcg for one individual might elicit steady fat loss, but that same 50mcg dose might not do very much for another.

    100% AnavarOnce tolerance is assessed after remaining at a 50mcg dose for a day or two, the individual should then increase their Cytomel dosage by an additional 25mcg every day (or every other day, depending on the individual’s experience) until a peak optimal dose is achieved. The typical peak dose for most male bodybuilders and athletes tends to lie in the range of 75 – 100mcg per day. Some have even ventured as high as 125mcg per day, though this is on the high end and is not normally recommended.

    Female Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    For the most part, the female response to the effects of Cytomel (T3) is the exact same as the male response. The only major difference in Cytomel dosage for females is that of the difference in body weight and mass. Females tend to be of a lower total size, weight, and body mass than men and therefore may tend to be more sensitive to a given T3 dosage.

    The peak effective dose for most females should be in the range of approximately 50 – 75mcg per day, with 75mcg being at the uppermost high end.

    Proper Administration and Timing of Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    T3 exhibits a half-life of 2.5 days, and it is therefore completely unnecessary to split up T3 doses throughout the day, as ingestion of the complete daily Cytomel dosage in the morning is adequate. It is also not completely necessary to titrate (slowly ramp up) the Cytomel dosage upwards. Initially, for the very first use of T3 for an individual, it is recommended to do so in order to obtain a feel for the compound’s effects as well as to gauge the increasing body heat output, as well as any possible muscle loss.

    Once an individual is aware of his or her full effective peak optimal dose, it is generally not necessary to slowly ramp up T3 doses, and that starting at the known optimal Cytomel dosage should present no issues.

    By the same admission, it is unnecessary to slowly titrate T3 doses downwards at the conclusion of a T3 cycle. The common myth used to be that upon sudden cessation, the thyroid gland can become damaged permanently. This is, once again, simply not true due to the research referenced earlier. It is in fact the best course of action to immediately eliminate all T3 doses at the conclusion of use so as to allow the thyroid hormone to restore function as soon as possible. As long as exogenous thyroid hormones are being administered, the thyroid hormone cannot recover due to the negative feedback loop. This applies even when slowly ramping down Cytomel doses. It is therefore best to cease administration immediately so as to allow function to restore as soon as possible, just as with the use of anabolic steroids.

    Expectations and Results from Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    T3 is a potent stimulator of the body’s metabolism at the cellular level that does not discriminate between the different substrates being utilized for energy (protein, carbohydrates, and fats). Therefore, it is important to understand that the fat loss can sometimes be dramatic, and if T3 is utilized without anabolic steroids beyond a certain dose (approximately more than 50mcg of T3), muscle loss can occur. The greater the T3 dosage, the greater and quicker the muscle loss can occur.

    It is also important for the reader to know and understand that excessive doses of anabolic steroids are absolutely unnecessary for the preservation of muscle during T3 use. A total weekly anabolic steroid use of 300 – 500mg per week (any anabolic steroid) should be more than sufficient for the preservation of muscle and the retention of nitrogen during the use of higher T3 doses. Stronger anabolic steroids such as Trenbolone or Winstrol will stave off muscle loss from T3 at only 200mg per week. The use of excessive anabolic steroid doses merely for the purpose of muscle preservation during T3 use is completely unnecessary."

    [1] Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

    [2] Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN
    good read , first time I see that natural production is 30 mcg

  4. Quote Originally Posted by justhere4comm View Post
    "Cytomel (T3) Dosage

    The human body naturally endogenously manufactures a T3 dosage of approximately 30mcg per day. Hence, this is why many users who wish to ‘play it safe’ by starting off at a Cytomel dosage of 25mcg per day are actually taking a step backwards in progress
    Thats like saying the male human body produces 800ng/dl testosterone per day. Sure, if human bodys were robotic and there was no such thing as homeostatic variance and "sub optimal" production.

    Obviously not every male produces 800ng/dl TT each and every day. Labs have ranges for a reason.

    And of course, on-cycle it is quite possible you will not be hitting max levels (of t3) endogenously anyway.

    Just to be clear: Im not arguing against >25mcg dosing. Im arguing that 25mcg is not without merit.
  5. T3, why some say yes it's awesome and some say don't touch it ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    Thats like saying the male human body produces 800ng/dl testosterone per day. Sure, if human bodys were robotic and there was no such thing as homeostatic variance and "sub optimal" production.

    Obviously not every male produces 800ng/dl TT each and every day. Labs have ranges for a reason.

    And of course, on-cycle it is quite possible you will not be hitting max levels (of t3) endogenously anyway.

    Just to be clear: Im not arguing against >25mcg dosing. Im arguing that 25mcg is not without merit.
    I think starting at that dose or even 12.5 would be most warranted in cases of women who are osteoporotic or frail due to age. The studies I have seen with depressed patients (obviously different patient population but still relevant data) have them starting off at 50-75 mcg and getting to higher doses in only a week or less in some cases. But to be careful here depressed patients such as myself likely have other physiologic abnormalities that could allow us to tolerate or even "need" doses that high. But id say if an individual personally feels apprehension, for the sheer fact of the placebo effect exacerbating symptoms, staring at 25mcg for a few days is not a bad idea.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    What do you mean stats? Currently I’m 6 ft 2, 240 lbs, 11% bf. been busy last few months so maybe have made it to the gym once or twice per week. But regardless T3 has variable bioavailability from person to person for several different reasons, and those who are getting theirs from research chem sites have no idea how much is actually in their product... and if it is even stable in whatever concoction they have composing their solvent for any considerable amount of time. Also I have a feeling some companies add small amounts of Clen to make their products seem more legit. Most people in here and other forums compare their “side effects” from various research sites, with no real analytically sound method of comparing doses or other chemicals mixed in. So proceed with caution.
    This....I tried T3 from a research site many many years ago and went up to 100mcg, didn't really feel much other than lack of pump in the gym. Fast forward to a few months when my Thyroid levels were low, was giving pharma T3 at 75mcgs....was way too much for me to handle with the sides.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by cheloz28 View Post
    This....I tried T3 from a research site many many years ago and went up to 100mcg, didn't really feel much other than lack of pump in the gym. Fast forward to a few months when my Thyroid levels were low, was giving pharma T3 at 75mcgs....was way too much for me to handle with the sides.
    The problem is T3 has a horrible shelf life in liquid formulation. They have to be careful in processing with even the tablet form...

  8. Ahhh - T3 - I am beginning to believe this is the most debated substance out there, with lots and lots of broscience and even contradictions in the scientific application.

    You get a lot of people saying it will burn through muscle, shut down your thyroid, make you flat, etc. I think this goes along with people who talk about how dieting with too few calories will "burn muscle". The fact is, it will speed up your metabolism and that means increased protein/amino acid usage and turnover. It also means you will burn carbs, which will lead to potential water depletion. If you aren't training, or are over-training, or aren't eating enough protein - sure it can increase muscle loss. But those situations will bring on muscle loss to begin with.

    As bigdavid says, a lot of people don't realize this substance gets used for depression in doses that are 75-150 mg, and typically in the upper end of that range (100-150) for months and months without issues.

    I am starting to disagree with the "it is unstable in water" premise. I think that formula variations play a huge role in different people responding to it. Even among thyroid patients online - different brands yield different results with some people saying Tiromel is great, others saying it is junk, etc. It seems that Pfizer Cytomel and Grossman Cynomel are the most reliable brands, but even with those there is some variation. I think this plays a big roll in the "RC is junk" debate too.

    I personally used RC and dosed as high as 200 mcg and didn't notice anything really, including any additional fat loss. I thought is twas junk. I went to Tiromel from a pretty reliable online source and had similar results. One thing I noticed while on it, and this was before I realized it was used for depression, I DID notice that on both the RC and the Tiromel, there was a mental impact. I am normally pretty agressive, and while a lot of people around me sometimes say that bad news rolls off me, it is really a process where bad news gets internalized and that makes me very aggressive and I am the guy who never quits and overcomes obstacles. Internally though, there is often unseen anxiety, frustration, etc. Given my fairly stressful job(s), this constant frustration can really leave me very exhausted and essentially depressed and negative inside. On T3 - that storm is very quiet. I can deal with stress much more easily and calmly. It may not be something others notice (except maybe people really close to me), but I notice it big time.

    I am currently taking 50 mcg Cynomel 2X a day and feel the same and I've had a junk diet lately. Where I normally gain weight very easily and I have to become extreme to lose weight, I am seeing better control. Still not easy to lose weight, but instead of gaining 10 pounds, I gain 3 and instead of gaining 3 pounds I stay the same.

    I've also been having some shoulder problems so I haven't been working out lately. When I first started the Cynomel, I DID notice a slight decrease in strength and started to worry about the muscle wasting that everyone talks about. After about a week though, the strength decrease stopped and I started climbing back up - even though my training is limited. So, maybe that's another factor - it could just be glycogen depletion - but people see their strength drop and then things normalize.

    Finally, I think that we like to think of this hormone as being a "take this and this happens" thing. But I think the hormone is a complex hormone with a lot of interactions. As bigdave said - oral bioavailability is effected by a number of factors (I try to avoid taking it with proteins and supplemental vitamins and minerals and prefer taking it on an empty stomach). Also, once it is in your system it is effected by a lot of factors. T3/T4 ratios, iron deficiency, vitamins, minerals, rT3, etc. - so much plays a factor in whether T3 will function effectively in your system. Oh, and most of us love to reduce cortisol for fat loss - and we don't realize that cortisol that is too low will render T3 useless and cortisol that is too high will also make it less effective.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    Thats like saying the male human body produces 800ng/dl testosterone per day. Sure, if human bodys were robotic and there was no such thing as homeostatic variance and "sub optimal" production.

    Obviously not every male produces 800ng/dl TT each and every day. Labs have ranges for a reason.

    And of course, on-cycle it is quite possible you will not be hitting max levels (of t3) endogenously anyway.

    Just to be clear: Im not arguing against >25mcg dosing. Im arguing that 25mcg is not without merit.
    Yes- actually, 12.5 mg isn't without merit. Some people will notice increased fat loss AND muscle building with this dose and it may not even shut down their natural production hardly at all.

    I think this is part of the reason too that the OP sees such conflicting opinions - some people will notice effects at incredibly small doses and sides at moderate doses. Other people may notice the sides but no effects at moderate doses (and obviously it is worthless to them because they start having racing heart beats before they even notice any benefit), and others will notice no sides and only moderate effects at high doses (which will lead them to believe it is worthless also maybe - since the fact loss is minimal and they keep hearing those doses can waste muscle, so it isn't worth it in their opinion). I fall in the last category - when I used it I believed it wasn't worth it because I didn't lean all that much even with big doses. But then again, I do notice some health improvements both physically and mentally.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yes- actually, 12.5 mg isn't without merit. Some people will notice increased fat loss AND muscle building with this dose and it may not even shut down their natural production hardly at all.

    I think this is part of the reason too that the OP sees such conflicting opinions - some people will notice effects at incredibly small doses and sides at moderate doses. Other people may notice the sides but no effects at moderate doses (and obviously it is worthless to them because they start having racing heart beats before they even notice any benefit), and others will notice no sides and only moderate effects at high doses (which will lead them to believe it is worthless also maybe - since the fact loss is minimal and they keep hearing those doses can waste muscle, so it isn't worth it in their opinion). I fall in the last category - when I used it I believed it wasn't worth it because I didn't lean all that much even with big doses. But then again, I do notice some health improvements both physically and mentally.
    This is exactly why I like the tren:test analogy/comparison.

    I personally run test at trt doses with tren. I see no reason for me to run test higher. But, I appreciate there are guys out there who laugh at this and run high doses of test with tren: "fuk brah, youre pinning test anyway itd be dumb not to run 500mg per wk, youre shorting yourself of gainz!!"

    When I use T3, I personally see no reason to dose higher than 50mcg per day. But thats because I have a very specific idea of what I want from the compound, and how it fits into the bigger picture (my AAS use, diet, supps, etc).9

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Nac View Post
    This is exactly why I like the tren:test analogy/comparison.

    I personally run test at trt doses with tren. I see no reason for me to run test higher. But, I appreciate there are guys out there who laugh at this and run high doses of test with tren: "fuk brah, youre pinning test anyway itd be dumb not to run 500mg per wk, youre shorting yourself of gainz!!"

    When I use T3, I personally see no reason to dose higher than 50mcg per day. But thats because I have a very clear idea of what I want from the compound, and how it fits into the bigger picture (my AAS use, diet, supps, etc).
    I have also found lower test doses to compliment tren in moderate to higher doses well. The ratio idea was such a stupid bro scam. Smh

  12. Quote Originally Posted by hamdysayed View Post
    the more I learn about it the more mixed reviews I get and some scare me some encourage me, so I'm trying to get to the bottom of this to drive if I'll run it with my next cut or no at 50 mcg max.
    main concern is one of ppl that I trust his opinion told me it will burn alot of muscle mass unless u run heavy cycle.
    Used 25mcg T3 on a blitz diet in 200mg Test TRT and I tightened up significantly in 2 weeks. Slight flattening out but carbs were also super low.

    I'm 4.5 weeks out now and haven't had to touch T3 but with my minimal use, I would def use it again if needed. I could only imagine what 50mcg would delivery on heavier Anabolics.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    Used 25mcg T3 on a blitz diet in 200mg Test TRT and I tightened up significantly in 2 weeks. Slight flattening out but carbs were also super low.

    I'm 4.5 weeks out now and haven't had to touch T3 but with my minimal use, I would def use it again if needed. I could only imagine what 50mcg would delivery on heavier Anabolics.
    So bottom line you need an anabolic compound?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Ihatbanas View Post
    So bottom line you need an anabolic compound?
    No. I was on TRT.

    Why does everyone on this forum assume TRT is "on cycle"? It puts me right in the middle of being a normal male.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    No. I was on TRT.

    Why does everyone on this forum assume TRT is "on cycle"? It puts me right in the middle of being a normal male.
    no he is asking u have to be running anabolic with t3.
    and the answer is yes anabolic is a must in my opinion

  16. Quote Originally Posted by hamdysayed View Post
    no he is asking u have to be running anabolic with t3.
    and the answer is yes anabolic is a must in my opinion
    No, in my experience you don't. I said I successfully used 25mcg without any anabolics.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    No. I was on TRT.

    Why does everyone on this forum assume TRT is "on cycle"? It puts me right in the middle of being a normal male.
    Haha because that is what folks are told.

    It's another level of excuses, lol. That averaging 700-900ng/dl explains your excessive swoleness away. Of course, silly!

    The only benefit of 150-225mg/wk of Test over a completely natty version of the same serum T levels is when coming off a "blast" or "cycle", there is very little chance you'll lose a ton of muscle. Exceptions would be when your cycle was very high in doses and your diet, training and genetics aren't up to snuff on keeping the gains. On TRT, you won't be exposed to super low T levels for a week or two like you would going back to natty state after a cycle.

    Someone with good genetics and an on-point diet can probably pull off T3 usage no problem without excessive loss of muscle mass.

    I'd be interested in understanding how exogenous T3 affects endogenous T production - and that may answer your question on whether exogenous androgens are necessary with T3.

  18. This is very interesting thread.... following

  19. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Haha because that is what folks are told.

    It's another level of excuses, lol. That averaging 700-900ng/dl explains your excessive swoleness away. Of course, silly!

    The only benefit of 150-225mg/wk of Test over a completely natty version of the same serum T levels is when coming off a "blast" or "cycle", there is very little chance you'll lose a ton of muscle. Exceptions would be when your cycle was very high in doses and your diet, training and genetics aren't up to snuff on keeping the gains. On TRT, you won't be exposed to super low T levels for a week or two like you would going back to natty state after a cycle.

    Someone with good genetics and an on-point diet can probably pull off T3 usage no problem without excessive loss of muscle mass.

    I'd be interested in understanding how exogenous T3 affects endogenous T production - and that may answer your question on whether exogenous androgens are necessary with T3.
    maybe 25 mcg yeah , anything over that I think it have to be ran with anabolics.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Haha because that is what folks are told.

    It's another level of excuses, lol. That averaging 700-900ng/dl explains your excessive swoleness away. Of course, silly!

    The only benefit of 150-225mg/wk of Test over a completely natty version of the same serum T levels is when coming off a "blast" or "cycle", there is very little chance you'll lose a ton of muscle. Exceptions would be when your cycle was very high in doses and your diet, training and genetics aren't up to snuff on keeping the gains. On TRT, you won't be exposed to super low T levels for a week or two like you would going back to natty state after a cycle.

    Someone with good genetics and an on-point diet can probably pull off T3 usage no problem without excessive loss of muscle mass.

    I'd be interested in understanding how exogenous T3 affects endogenous T production - and that may answer your question on whether exogenous androgens are necessary with T3.
    That brings up a good point with T3 and T production. perhaps I'll try and get some bloods with both. There's a site I can order specific bloods from that are actually pretty cheap. I'll do some while cursing and no t3 and maybe run 25mcg for a few weeks while on TRT and compare.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  21. Quote Originally Posted by hamdysayed View Post
    maybe 25 mcg yeah , anything over that I think it have to be ran with anabolics.
    It just depends man. Partly because everybody metabolizes this particular drug very differently, meaning 25mcg for one may actually have to be 50mcg for another to get similar effects.

    The other variable really is genetics, which includes serum hormone levels, free T, insulin sensitivity, total muscle mass & myostatin levels and whatever infinite combination of variables that exists that interacts with or affects muscle growth & fat loss. I know some guys that are natty that have incredible genetics and muscle mass while others say the same about me in terms of how much muscle mass I carry on very little androgen use. I typically respond very well to low doses of just about anything - test, tren, GH, peptides, fat burners, etc. but others do not share this trait. It's all relative and a bit of a sliding scale...

  22. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    It just depends man. Partly because everybody metabolizes this particular drug very differently, meaning 25mcg for one may actually have to be 50mcg for another to get similar effects.

    The other variable really is genetics, which includes serum hormone levels, free T, insulin sensitivity, total muscle mass & myostatin levels and whatever infinite combination of variables that exists that interacts with or affects muscle growth & fat loss. I know some guys that are natty that have incredible genetics and muscle mass while others say the same about me in terms of how much muscle mass I carry on very little androgen use. I typically respond very well to low doses of just about anything - test, tren, GH, peptides, fat burners, etc. It's all relative and a bit of a sliding scale...
    very good point , the more you know about anabolics the more you learn that there is much involved ,damn

  23. Just to reiterate I’ve been on 300 mcg T4 and 150 mcg T3 with and without androgens. And when I say without I mean natural production (my natural levels are around 750 +\- 50) and I’ve never had any issues with catabolism. Though I suppose someone who’s levels are near 400s may have issues but that’s just speculation. There is a lot more to muscle mass than just test levels...for ex: androgen receptor sensitivity/density, myostatin levels, genetically inherited muscle fiber proportions(type 1 vs 2) and muscle fiber numbers starting out, growth hormone/igf-1 levels locally, sleep status,...I could keep going

  24. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    It just depends man. Partly because everybody metabolizes this particular drug very differently, meaning 25mcg for one may actually have to be 50mcg for another to get similar effects.

    The other variable really is genetics, which includes serum hormone levels, free T, insulin sensitivity, total muscle mass & myostatin levels and whatever infinite combination of variables that exists that interacts with or affects muscle growth & fat loss. I know some guys that are natty that have incredible genetics and muscle mass while others say the same about me in terms of how much muscle mass I carry on very little androgen use. I typically respond very well to low doses of just about anything - test, tren, GH, peptides, fat burners, etc. but others do not share this trait. It's all relative and a bit of a sliding scale...
    Aha I just posted something similar to this without even reading your post. Oh well. Good to reiterate I guess.
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