Making Trans-dermal Versions of Great Orals. Ideas please

FRITZBLITZ

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So I have a stockpile of all the great DS orals including some obscure ones. I want to experiment with turning them into Trans D an see how much more potent thay are.

What I'm working with: lots of CEL M-drol, P-plex, H-drol,
and a few bottles of each of: Spawn [Epi-Trendion ], Epistane, Winstrol, Dbol, Hate-400 [Halo 50mg, 4AD 280mg,Trendion70mg].=2caps
and 2 bottles of the real methyl-Tren

Since the Hate-400 has a low absorbtion in Trendion and 4AD I started with this 1. I have made it 1 cap/1ml and it's thick cus it has absorption assist chems as well. As It sits now 1ml = 25mg halo/35mg trendion/140mg 4AD. want to make it a beast but don't know if I can 2x the powder.
Should I try to double the powder to = 50mg/70mg/280mg or add a different oral?

Also any suggestions of what else to turn into a TD are welcome, I'm even thinking about using some of my raw aromasin but I'm quite sure there is no advantage to that.
 
Nac

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What makes you think theyll be more potent via dermal admin? Even assuming all those active compounds are molecularly small enough for dermal penetration, youll generally get less (much less) compound through your skin and into circulation than via oral route, plus you got all that filler crap in the caps being messy and potentially making absorption even worse.
 
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What makes you think theyll be more potent via dermal admin? Even assuming all those active compounds are molecularly small enough for dermal penetration, youll generally get less (much less) compound through your skin and into circulation than via oral route, plus you got all that filler crap in the caps being messy and potentially making absorption even worse.
I guess to answer your whole question....I know how to make TDs and unless the molecule is visible under a microscope it will pass through the epidermis and 88-94 % absorption rate is average for anything even if you get 100% ingesting it, which Tren and 4AD do not have even close to that. The Hate-400 has no filler only chems for delivery. It's still an experiment....But 1 MAJOR thing ppl dont take into account is that the molecule has up to 100% longer active life by retaining the methyl while in the blood so it has that much more potent before the liver breaks it down. 2x potency depending on the molecule is a huge bump
 
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88-94% absorption via dermal application?

Whered you get that figure from cos its not even close to accurate.

Not sure about the microscope claim. Its generally measured as molecular weight or Daltons.
 
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88-94% absorption via dermal application?

Whered you get that figure from cos its not even close to accurate.

Not sure about the microscope claim. Its generally measured as molecular weight or Daltons.
I got the number from a medical documentary about advances in TDs. For argument's sake what % do you have in your notes? I specifically remember mid-high 80s going into low 90 absorbtion. However many things are 100% absorbed.
 
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Pharma gets 15% absorption, based on the PK of current products. And thats high range.

Supp companies, who are not likewise restricted by what they can use in their carriers, are going to hit a ceiling at 30-40%. And thats being generous.

Ive based my figures on studies, and in the absence of studies, claims made by dudes like Pat Arnold and dsade.

Any claims to absorption over 50% are either total bollocks, and/or need substantiation due to their outlandishness.
 
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Pharma gets 15% absorption, based on the PK of current products. And thats high range.

Supp companies, who are not likewise restricted by what they can use in their carriers, are going to hit a ceiling at 30-40%. And thats being generous.

Ive based my figures on studies, and in the absence of studies, claims made by dudes like Pat Arnold and dsade.

Any claims to absorption over 50% are either total bollocks, and/or need substantiation due to their outlandishness.
I really don't have any clue where you got those numbers, I know specific TD scripts that are in the 90s from studies from my doc.

Plus if 30% was a high rate why are TDs mg/ml so close to a far higher absorbtion rate? and why are TDs so popular if they're crap?
 
JahCure

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I really don't have any clue where you got those numbers, I know specific TD scripts that are in the 90s from studies from my doc.

Plus if 30% was a high rate why are TDs mg/ml so close to a far higher absorbtion rate? and why are TDs so popular if they're crap?
I think you need to sell off some of those CEL products instead! ?*♂?*♂
 
Nac

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*sigh*

Im not doing the research for you man.

Look up the PK studies on pharma testosterone TDs. They show, the data shows, 9-14% absorption.

Do your own research on what Pat Arnold has claimed. Or not.

Companies use TDs when the oral bioavailablity is crap, and/or if halflife is very short, and/or oral is risky.
 
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*sigh*

Im not doing the research for you man.

Look up the PK studies on pharma testosterone TDs. They show, the data shows, 9-14% absorption.

Do your own research on what Pat Arnold has claimed. Or not.

Companies use TDs when the oral bioavailablity is crap, and/or if halflife is very short, and/or oral is dangerous.
Dude. It's a mutt point. I am doing some experimenting with orals turned into TDs if you want to suggest a combo cool, otherwise I'll 2x check my notes on TD delivery but It will only change the dose not the recipe.
 
Nac

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Sure. Im only trying to aware you of the more realistic facts. 90%+ absorption is deluded.
 
wrxwhit

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Imo a waste of some oral goodness. Turning them into a TD less than half effective, but for experimenting purposes, go for it. It's a fun hobby either way
 
brofessorx

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methyls have high oral bioavailability. much higher oral versus transdermal.

it doesnt seem to make much sense to deliver an oral by transdermal
only about ten percent of an steroid gets absorbed into the blood stream transdermnally

however that which gets absorbed avoids extensive liver first pass metabolism

liver first pass metabolism is not much of an issue with methylated steriods though, so this whole idea is senseless
cool, that would explain why there aren't any being produced.so if this was done with non methylated compounds, like max lmg or 11 oxo, would there be an increase in the absorption since your avoiding the liver first pass metabolism?i would imagine it would that's why formastane works better as a topical.
although the absorption through the skin is terrible versus absorption in the digestive tract, for some compounds the avoidance of first pass metabolism balances the equation enough to make TD administration better. 11-ketotestosterone, testosterone, progesterone etc are examples
Original thread here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/transdermals/225172-methyl-topicals.html

If you're using raw powder, then have fun, but if anything you got is in a tablet or capsule, you will have filler, and that will prevent absorption.
If using raw powder you'll want to be sure the molecular weight is under 400, and the lower the better.
 
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Smont

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I've seen a few things claiming dmso has close to 100% absorption but it seems like it was just trying to push dmso. These were written in 2015 by the way. Anyway, has anyone ever made a transdermal patch. It would be awesome to not have to slather on lotion and worry about transferring it to another person
 
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Sure. Im only trying to aware you of the more realistic facts. 90%+ absorption is deluded.
My recipe may differ but I made my own 11keto/B-12 and I used a bit more that 1ml per day that was my serving and my "B-12 was along the levels of having a shot every 3 days" said my doc and he deff told me to cut it out not that their was danger but it was passed maxed out.

don't you think TD Tren and TD 4AD is more absorbed by oral? SO why did this compound come to a discussion on percentage if it's obvious TD is more effective delivery?

Also I don't understand why ppl speedbump over the fact that having the compound in your system while still methylated drastically increases it's potency and effective time. And This was my point with another post that no one realizes that if you shoot or TD a methyl like H-drol it is active in your system for a very long time before the liver is able to produce enough enzymes to dismantle the methyl group....Then the compound is active for another very long time before your liver switches it's enzyme production to dismantle the compound.

Most don't realize their is a hierarchy in how the liver metabolizes diff stuff. Having H-drol gradually [about 1-2 hours] absorbed and the liver is able to adjust quicker to a gradual influx of the same compound VS. being overwhelmed by it all at once. It depends on the compound but many times the liver can't metabolize 2 certain compounds at once, hence the hierarchy
 
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Imo a waste of some oral goodness. Turning them into a TD less than half effective, but for experimenting purposes, go for it. It's a fun hobby either way
LOL it's not like I'm dumping bottles of SD and Epi into a bowl switching on the beaters and hoping it's awesome. So far I used 30 caps of Hate 400 which if it's a total waste I'll be sad cus that stuff is good for how easy it is on the liver and how long you can run it.
 
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I've seen a few things claiming dmso has close to 100% absorption but it seems like it was just trying to push dmso. These were written in 2015 by the way. Anyway, has anyone ever made a transdermal patch. It would be awesome to not have to slather on lotion and worry about transferring it to another person
I use DMSO in my recipe! I have also made a patch. I watched a video on how a pharma makes them and as long as you add a leaching substance to your mix its easy. I used it for pain pills though not gear. now that I say that I'm not sure if it would be as effective, other than no hassle.
 
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Pharma gets 15% absorption, based on the PK of current products. And thats high range.

Supp companies, who are not likewise restricted by what they can use in their carriers, are going to hit a ceiling at 30-40%. And thats being generous.

Ive based my figures on studies, and in the absence of studies, claims made by dudes like Pat Arnold and dsade.

Any claims to absorption over 50% are either total bollocks, and/or need substantiation due to their outlandishness.
I'm not trying to argue or beat a dead hoarse but this 15%, is this by some sort of timeline or reasoning behind what I believe your quoting real info? I know that fentanyl patches have a delayed release but they administer 90+% over a 36 hour period
 
Nac

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I'm not trying to argue or beat a dead hoarse but this 15%, is this by some sort of timeline or reasoning behind what I believe your quoting real info? I know that fentanyl patches have a delayed release but they administer 90+% over a 36 hour period
A patch is different though. But ultimately still constrained by the same dermal limitations as a td application.

The transdermal "timeline" of absorption can be quite convoluted. But, crudely, whatever amount of compound is going to penetrate the first layer of skin (surface), is going to do so within the first 15mins of application. Outside of this timeframe, if it hasnt gotten into the dermal structures it will remain on the skin surface until it comes off (or further absorption aids are applied subsequently).

Note: this is no indication of whats going to eventually get right through into circulation. That amount will take longer, and be even less.

DMSO might alter these parameters favourably, but it wont totally (100%) overcome them.

Just to reitterate: the 15min window is NOT absorption-into-circulation, but initial skin layer penetration.
 
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A patch is different though. But ultimately still constrained by the same dermal limitations as a td application.

The "timeline" of absorption can be quite convoluted. But, crudely, whatever amount of compound is going to penetrate the first layer of skin (surface), is going to do so within the first 15mins of application. Outside of this timeframe, if it hasnt gotten into the dermal structures it will remain on the skin surface until it comes off (or further absorption aids are applied subsequently).

Note: this is no indication of whats going to eventually get right through into circulation. That amount will take longer, and be even less.

DMSO might alter these parameters favourably, but it wont totally (100%) overcome them.
I honestly think the only topic worth debating is what % enters the circulatory system. I don't have any notes o that and it probably depends on the compounds affinity to fat cells, water, and on. I know the most of the b-12 made it to the bloodstream the rest is up to testing. TD Tren Trest, and few others. get great reviews and I saw BW off TD TNE that was impressive. I loved TD Formestane. Don't you think the TD Tren deliveres more Tren to the blood stream than the oral version?

I also did a small test and it could be coincidence, but I rubbed 1ml on each biceps, did 8ish sets of lame 60lb rubberband curls and my arms were ultra pumped, tendor to the touch and vainy as hell. If not a coincidence I wouldn't mind if I had a pinpoint growth [or at least hardner] in my tool chest .
 
Nac

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At the end of the day Im a practical man. We can debate %'s, I can throw up studies...will anyone really care?

To paraphrase Feynman "shut up and applicate (the td)!"

The proof will be in the use and any relevant endpoint results. But, I wouldnt be expecting a 50%+ absorption rate from single applications.
 

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I've seen a few things claiming dmso has close to 100% absorption but it seems like it was just trying to push dmso. These were written in 2015 by the way. Anyway, has anyone ever made a transdermal patch. It would be awesome to not have to slather on lotion and worry about transferring it to another person
DMSO itself has near to 100% absorption for sure. Its used to protect cells from ice crystals during cryo conservation although its toxic, because it reaches all parts of the cell before its effects take place.
However that does not mean that anything solved in DMSO has a high absorption rate at all.
 
Smont

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DMSO itself has near to 100% absorption for sure. Its used to protect cells from ice crystals during cryo conservation although its toxic, because it reaches all parts of the cell before its effects take place.
However that does not mean that anything solved in DMSO has a high absorption rate at all.
Makes sense
 
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I've had great results from Td test, tren and bold, all no ester. Goood sh1t man I tell thee
 

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Turning a methyl into a TD is a complete waste, unless it's for someone who has such severe stomach issues from orals that it keeps them from taking them at all.

TD versions of traditionally injectable AAS, like testosterone, trenbolone, and boldenone (as mentioned above), can be very effective alternatives for those who are unable to pin.
 
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Turning a methyl into a TD is a complete waste, unless it's for someone who has such severe stomach issues from orals that it keeps them from taking them at all.

TD versions of traditionally injectable AAS, like testosterone, trenbolone, and boldenone (as mentioned above), can be very effective alternatives for those who are unable to pin.
(19-Norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione) 25mg & (4-androstene-3b,17b-diol) 150mg are not methylated and are popular TDs. Why is ( 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol) Halo 25mg a waste? can you explain?

Why if a compound has a methyl group does it become worthless as a TD compared to RAW
 
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Why if a compound has a methyl group does it become worthless as a TD compared to RAW
because it has about a 99% survival rate after liver first pass. Consume 100mg and 99% is active.

Transdermal application of 100mg will yield you 25mg (at best) absorption and the when it passes the liver you'll get about 24.5mg active.

AnabolicMinds was fore runner in TD formulas and application long before it became the prominent supplement message board it is today. Your numbers are astronomically off and rediculous.

These mental masturbation threads of yours are really just that...without a happy ending. Furthermore you are complicating something simple and effective for zero net benefit to yourself and the board.
 
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because it has about a 99% survival rate after liver first pass. Consume 100mg and 99% is active.

Transdermal application of 100mg will yield you 25mg (at best) absorption and the when it passes the liver you'll get about 24.5mg active.

AnabolicMinds was fore runner in TD formulas and application long before it became the prominent supplement message board it is today. Your numbers are astronomically off and rediculous.

These mental masturbation threads of yours are really just that...without a happy ending. Furthermore you are complicating something simple and effective for zero net benefit to yourself and the board.
Ok thanks for actual explanation. I don't want to argue so I'll say HYPOTHETICALLY if the absorption of the compound through TD was 90% and lets say 80% actually hit the circulatory system; wouldn't that be a profound increase in the active life and potency of the compound?

Since it is immediately active once in the blood--then it goes first pass no methyl---now is still active---then liver starts to metabolize and break down compound. Also having an oral take 1-2 hours to hit blood allowes liver more time to raise enzymes for that certain molecule; a straight 20 min dose will likely have more time of effect EX. drinking 10 shots in 1 hour of 5 Vs drinking 2 shots an hour.for 5 hours
 
sinewave3

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Keep it simple:

Methyl = take it orally
No (17aa) methyl, then make a TD

Halo, phera, all of that will be a waste as a TD cause it works good orally.

Now the tren types, 11oxo, maybe the 4ad, transdermal it up. Orally, they don't absorb great, but most folks just up the dose to compensate.

A few compounds like Trest work fine orally or as a transdermal, likely due to the time release effect transdermal delivery provides.
 
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Keep it simple:

Methyl = take it orally
No (17aa) methyl, then make a TD

Halo, phera, all of that will be a waste as a TD cause it works good orally.

Now the tren types, 11oxo, maybe the 4ad, transdermal it up. Orally, they don't absorb great, but most folks just up the dose to compensate.

A few compounds like Trest work fine orally or as a transdermal, likely due to the time release effect transdermal delivery provides.
??? Should I repeat the ^^^^ sentences. If I wanted zero info I would ask a personal trainer!
 
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Ok thanks for actual explanation. I don't want to argue so I'll say HYPOTHETICALLY if the absorption of the compound through TD was 90% and lets say 80% actually hit the circulatory system; wouldn't that be a profound increase in the active life and potency of the compound?
You likely know a whole lot more than I about liver enzymes and metabolism.

I pretty confidently assure you that your hypothesis is extremely miscalculated by three to four fold.

How about you conduct an experiment with your TD formula with testosterone base (no Ester) 100mg/ml. Test your levels after a week. Based on you hypothesis, after receiving seven 80mg active doses of testosterone for a total 560mg a week. Your testosterone should be well off the chart. Or like I suggested a 20% absorption rate will have you receiving seven 20mg active doses for a total of 140mg a week and should have your level at ~700-900.

If you would be willing to do that than I'd be willing to discuss this further. As I stated AM was THE transdermal board and online community and I've been here 15yrs and this has been covered.

This entire conversation hinges on YOU proving your hypothesis. Otherwise you've really got nothing going for you.
 
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You likely know a whole lot more than I about liver enzymes and metabolism.

I pretty confidently assure you that your hypothesis is extremely miscalculated by three to four fold.

How about you conduct an experiment with your TD formula with testosterone base (no Ester) 100mg/ml. Test your levels after a week. Based on you hypothesis, after receiving seven 80mg active doses of testosterone for a total 560mg a week. Your testosterone should be well off the chart. Or like I suggested a 20% absorption rate will have you receiving seven 20mg active doses for a total of 140mg a week and should have your level at ~700-900.

If you would be willing to do that than I'd be willing to discuss this further. As I stated AM was THE transdermal board and online community and I've been here 15yrs and this has been covered.

This entire conversation hinges on YOU proving your hypothesis. Otherwise you've really got nothing going for you.
That's a bit expensive of a gauntlet. It also doesn't address how much more active a methyl steroid is when straight to blood.

HOWEVER you don't get away that easily...I can use the TD and run bloods maybe week 3, then use the capsules for the last month and compare.
 
brofessorx

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Try this again for the op, maybe he missed it.
methyls have high oral bioavailability. much higher oral versus transdermal.

it doesnt seem to make much sense to deliver an oral by transdermal
only about ten percent of an steroid gets absorbed into the blood stream transdermnally

however that which gets absorbed avoids extensive liver first pass metabolism

liver first pass metabolism is not much of an issue with methylated steriods though, so this whole idea is senseless
cool, that would explain why there aren't any being produced.so if this was done with non methylated compounds, like max lmg or 11 oxo, would there be an increase in the absorption since your avoiding the liver first pass metabolism?i would imagine it would that's why formastane works better as a topical.
although the absorption through the skin is terrible versus absorption in the digestive tract, for some compounds the avoidance of first pass metabolism balances the equation enough to make TD administration better. 11-ketotestosterone, testosterone, progesterone etc are examples
Original thread here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/transdermals/225172-methyl-topicals.html

If you're using raw powder, then have fun, but if anything you got is in a tablet or capsule, you will have filler, and that will prevent absorption.
If using raw powder you'll want to be sure the molecular weight is under 400, and the lower the better.
 
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Try this again for the op, maybe he missed it.




Original thread here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/transdermals/225172-methyl-topicals.html

If you're using raw powder, then have fun, but if anything you got is in a tablet or capsule, you will have filler, and that will prevent absorption.
If using raw powder you'll want to be sure the molecular weight is under 400, and the lower the better.
I think you need to read the thread you keep shilling it backs up alot of what I have been saying. Read this thread then the methyl topicals and you'll see that it's not 1 single topic at work, especially when Arnold goes into the potency of avoiding first pass
 
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That's a bit expensive of a gauntlet. It also doesn't address how much more active a methyl steroid is when straight to blood.

HOWEVER you don't get away that easily...I can use the TD and run bloods maybe week 3, then use the capsules for the last month and compare.
suppose I entertain this once more. If they are 99% active orally how much more they could be even if your hypothesis holds up. Do the math. There is a reason they are oral and need to remain that way - it is the highest rate of activity you can achieve aside from I suppose IV.

Seriously, just how much more is 100% than 99%? After doing the math why would you continue this.

Talking about your hypothesis and ignoring the know facts Is silly. If you think it's different then STOP talking about it and prove it by doing it and providing the evidence.

I sincerely admire and respect your inquisitiveness but I need to respectfully move on from this futile discussion.

Good luck.
 
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suppose I entertain this once more. If they are 99% active orally how much more they could be even if your hypothesis holds up. Do the math. There is a reason they are oral and need to remain that way - it is the highest rate of activity you can achieve aside from I suppose IV.

Good luck.
But Tren and 4AD are not 99% active orally. This is just off the cuff: only the Halo part of HATE-400 is 99%.. So you lose 20% off the Halo but since it has a lifespan of 16 hours after first pass. Halo at 80% but still methylated may increase it's active life enough to make up or gain potency [ I don't know why Halo is so low priority to be broken down in the liver most orals are 6 hours] If you combine that with the undeniable increase in potency of Tren and 4AD you end up with a very decent result.
 

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