Theoretical Q - Most gains? Clomid w/ T 1,000 or TRT w/ T <1,000?

[Justlooking5]

Just a question I had. I am debating TRT vs. longer term clomid for hypogonadism treatment.

Right now I'm taking clomid 25mg/day, which in the past has gotten my T levels to over 1,000. I'm also taking some OTC test boosters.

I also read a guy's post today who said he is taking 200mg test/week, but his total T is only in the 800s.

It got me thinking ... would I see more gains on clomid w/ T >1,000, or on TRT with T in the 800s.

Obviously free T is likely to be important here, but just on the face of it: Is there a reason that T levels on clomid lead to less gains than TRT with similar test levels? I know clomid may reduce IGF-1.


Has anyone reading this tried TRT as well as longer term clomid and can compare results in terms of pro-T benefits?

 

[solidsnake]

Mmmm good question,in for the knowledge

 

[Caldwood]

In for the knowledge, great question.

 

[brofessorx]

probably test. I'm curious about the guy who's using 200mg/week test and has his T in the 800's. that seems pretty low.

 

[Nac]

Well, straight off Id wonder when the guy on trt did his draw.

If he did it at the trough, an 800 would be fawkin high (the peak will easily be supraphysiological, depending on his protocol).

However, a peak of 800 would likely be a different story in terms of gainz (ie, less).

Most trt protocols will involve peaks/troughs. When you draw relative to those variances will obviously affect the reading you get. So, difficult to make any conclusions based solely on a value without knowing context (was the 800 a peak level, trough, or somewhere in between?)

 

[fueledpassion]

Yeah, 200mg/wk is gonna trump most Clomid therapy options. 125-150mg/wk and now we're getting more in line with Clomid's capability. In terms sex drive and mood, I feel Clomid can do just as good less the estrogenic outbreaks that occasionally happen (I'll expound in a minute). But in terms of hanging onto muscle mass, I've never been able to get PCT and Clomid therapy to work. Something is missing in that option as compared to Test injections.

Plus, the sides of Clomid for some, including myself, can be that it puts us in an overly emotional status. The 2 out of 3 times I've cried in my adult life, I took Clomid. The last instance, I accidentally took 50mg Clomid thinking it was my Modafinil, as they look very similar - (Need to reorganize my pill box - its a hot mess) - went to a spiritual outing and I couldn't hold them jokers back, lol. The feelings were genuine, the ridiculously estrogenic response was not. Later investigated and realized what happened. It's been so long since I've taken Clomid I'd forgotten what it felt like. Let me tell you, high T or not, Clomid is a mere shadow, a counterfeit manhood if you will, compared to exogenous Test. With Test, you get none of that nonsense - just confidence and utmost manhood.

 

[Justlooking5]

Well, straight off Id wonder when the guy on trt did his draw.

If he did it at the trough, an 800 would be fawkin high (the peak will easily be supraphysiological, depending on his protocol).

However, a peak of 800 would likely be a different story in terms of gainz (ie, less).

Most trt protocols will involve peaks/troughs. When you draw relative to those variances will obviously affect the reading you get. So, difficult to make any conclusions based solely on a value without knowing context (was the 800 a peak level, trough, or somewhere in between?)

He said he injects Saturdays and Tuesdays and the test was 2.5 days after his last shot.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

He said he injects Saturdays and Tuesdays and the test was 2.5 days after his last shot.

Then that's a trough at 800, so see NAC's reply. My trough after just two weeks was 842 (Mon AM/Thurs PM) with just 50mgx2 SubQ. I know I'm high and will probably be going lower, just testing some things out at the moment. Also, what mg dose gets you what level, is entirely on the individual - I laugh when I see/hear people say that 100mg will do very little - yeah ok bud

To answer your question: I'd say look at Bhasin's data on Test injections from 25mg up to 600mg - IMO there will be no difference in your Clomid vs Test protocol - and I'd rather inject a natural male hormone (liver not involved), than take an oral drug (Clomid) for the rest of my life (even though it is really safe).

 

[Nac]

Good points made.

I think if we use endpoint measures as our yardstick (so muscle tissue grown, and weight added to bar over time), then there will be more to the comparison than just TT levels. Obviously, things like SHBG and freeT will play a crucial role. And, estrogen levels. So on one hand Id think that whichever protocol generates the most favourable hormonal environment not limited to just TT will be the winner.

But, Id rather my e2 level be "optimal" without the use of an AI, which then expands our criteria to include general health considerations.

So fwiw, based on the points made Id think that test would be the better option as far as our endpoint goals are concerned.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Good points made.

I think if we use endpoint measures as our yardstick (so muscle tissue grown, and weight added to bar over time), then there will be more to the comparison than just TT levels. Obviously, things like SHBG and freeT will play a crucial role. And, estrogen levels. So on one hand Id think that whichever protocol generates the most favourable hormonal environment not limited to just TT will be the winner.

But, Id rather my e2 level be "optimal" without the use of an AI, which then expands our criteria to include general health considerations.

So fwiw, based on the points made Id think that test would be the better option as far as our endpoint goals are concerned.

This is such an interesting topic. On my next cycle I will be doing a 1 month clomid prepcycle. I will have BW 2 week before prep and right before cycle.

Can you think of a mathematical way of comparing 3 months of clean diet hard training with natty TT=670, FT=32 ect my base. calculate bodycomp/3 and compare to 1 month clean diet hard training while on clomid? I did a 1 month clomid cycle and week 3 my TT=1170, FT=87 ect (I know those numbers look odd but that's another story)

Or any ideas of any type of clomid cycle that I could compare with natty to try and derive more info on clomid's effect on T and muscle gain? I would be up for any reasonable trial, It would be a bit hard to fit in 3 months of TRUE natty training [either being post cycle and maintaining or on cycle] but I could fit it in, in the name of science.

 

[Nac]

If the experiment was purely for my own curiosity I have a few ideas on how Id do it (and prolly not too dissimiliar to your proposal)...but if I were wanting it to be rigorous enough for others to "learn" from, thats a bit trickier.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

If the experiment was purely for my own curiosity I have a few ideas on how Id do it (and prolly not too dissimiliar to your proposal)...but if I were wanting it to be rigorous enough for others to "learn" from, thats a bit trickier.

I think anything that only 1 person does is not enough to be a conclusion. But I would like to do it to a point that it can be looked at with a grain of salt. I don't want it so stringent that it would be hard to replicate or take a huge hit on my productivity