SECOND CYCLE. Any other suggestions or g2g?

[castIron09]

I'll be starting my second cycle next week. 26 yr, 195lb, 13-14% bf.
First cycle I did Test E @ 500mg wk. For 15 weeks. Dropped body fat, increased strength and gained about 6lbs of mass (goal was to cut) . I hated waited for the test E to kick in. I didn't notice anything till maybe week 6. That's why I extended my cycle to 15 instead of 12.
So second cycle I'll be doing the same but adding some prop weeks 1-4 and I'll also be adding hcg. Here is what it's looking like so far. If you have any other recommendations or advice that would be great.

Week 1-4 Test P (100mg Eod)
Week 1-15 Test E (250 mg 2x wk) 500wk
Week 1-17 HCG (500iu 2x wk) 1000iu wk
Week 1-17 Aromasin (12.5mg Eod)

PCT

Week 18-21 Nolva (40-40-20-20)
Week 18-21 Clomid (100-100-50-50)

Other sups

Fish oil
Multi-vit
Creatine
Vit-C
BCAA

 

[heavylifter33]

Depending on goals i'd drop the prop and add an oral. HCG probably a good idea because of length of cycle. You likely don't need 2 SERM. You might want to get something like CEL Cycle Assist just for general on cycle health benefits.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I agree ^^^ I'd kick with an strong oral! depending on what you like, some orals just give you that aggro to jack weight! If no oral I would frontload the Test E rather than Test P. add a cycle supp I prefer Ar1macre Pro but CEL is good too. I use both clomy and nova but way less, clomid 50/50/25/25/12./12.5 e2d and nolva 20/20 2 weeks only, might want a Test booster in PCT but mainly for drive and labido if you rebound easy after 1-2 weeks then skip it.

 

[castIron09]

Depending on goals i'd drop the prop and add an oral. HCG probably a good idea because of length of cycle. You likely don't need 2 SERM. You might want to get something like CEL Cycle Assist just for general on cycle health benefits.

There is always such a debate on Nolva vs. Clomid. Half say Nolva is the way to go, others swear by Clomid. I use both and cover all the bases.
My goal again is to gain lean mass and drop a little more bf. What would you recommend for an oral instead of the prop? I've always just though why put potential strain on the liver if I didn't have to, granted 4 weeks of an oral is not going to harm anything. I'm just curious on why you say orals?

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Nolva vs Clomid is preference, Nolva is slightly faster acting. If you had 0 problems on first cycle I would frontload Test E and kick with SD but if you have to go with now available, then M-sten maybe D-zine (OG DMZ). As for liver stress there is alot more to it and it is largely over exadurated for safety sake. Your cycle supp will keep everything in safe ranges

 

[heavylifter33]

There is always such a debate on Nolva vs. Clomid. Half say Nolva is the way to go, others swear by Clomid. I use both and cover all the bases.
My goal again is to gain lean mass and drop a little more bf. What would you recommend for an oral instead of the prop? I've always just though why put potential strain on the liver if I didn't have to, granted 4 weeks of an oral is not going to harm anything. I'm just curious on why you say orals?

Both doesn't mean better, when dealing with the endocrine system it can mean worse. Hence why i said you likely don't need both, i'd use Ralox and call it a day.

Hepatotoxicity is completely overblown and the liver is ridiculously powerful in what it can handle. brb injecting steroids which enlarge organs and can negatively effect lipid values but being worried about 4 weeks on an oral. Doesn't make sense right? You could run tbol which would be my recommendation. SD would be my first choice but you seem wary of the liver. TUDCA: get some lol.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I

******I like This better******

Week 1 SD 10mg ed or D-zine
Week 2-4 SD 20mg ed or D-zine
Week 1 day 1 Frontload Test E 600mg thats exact frontload for 500mg test E/week
Week 1 day 4 Regular Test E 250mg
Week 1-16 Test E (250 mg 2x wk) 500wk
Week 10-17 HCG (500iu 2x wk) 1000iu wk (before it was a waste of $ you don't shutdown that quick)
Week 1-18 Aromasin (12.5mg Eod)

PCT

Week 18-20 Nolva (20-20)
Week 18-23 Clomid (50-50-25-25-12.5)

Other sups

**Cycle Support your pick** week 1-23
Fish oil
Multi-vit
Creatine
Vit-C
BCAA

I made changes in the quote ^^^^

 

[castIron09]

I made changes in the quote ^^^^

This looks pretty good. Although with the HCG I thought the idea was to prevent hpta shutdown. Starting at week 10 would just be a restart if that makes sense. Again there seems to be mixed reviews with the HCG protocol. I haven't run hcg in a cycle before so I was just going by what some vets do these days. Money's already wasted lol this cycle is ready to rock in a few days. I do have some m-sten and dmz on hand though, I've just strayed away from the prohormones.

 

[castIron09]

Both doesn't mean better, when dealing with the endocrine system it can mean worse. Hence why i said you likely don't need both, i'd use Ralox and call it a day.

Hepatotoxicity is completely overblown and the liver is ridiculously powerful in what it can handle. brb injecting steroids which enlarge organs and can negatively effect lipid values but being worried about 4 weeks on an oral. Doesn't make sense right? You could run tbol which would be my recommendation. SD would be my first choice but you seem wary of the liver. TUDCA: get some lol.

I've used ralox only before in one of my very first PH cycles. It was pharma grade and I can't say how well it worked for me since this was before I started doing blood work. Since then I've used both Clomid and Nolva which seemed to work well and no sides whatsoever from the Clomid which made me wary of its legitimacy.
I do agree how overblown the toxicity of these compounds can be. In my previous PH cycles (SD) (DMZ) I use to run only 5 weeks and had elevated liver enzymes which pushed me away from them completely. I do understand where you're coming from though and will probably supplement these orals again next go round.
PS... TUDCA is always on hand ?

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

This looks pretty good. Although with the HCG I thought the idea was to prevent hpta shutdown. Starting at week 10 would just be a restart if that makes sense. Again there seems to be mixed reviews with the HCG protocol. I haven't run hcg in a cycle before so I was just going by what some vets do these days. Money's already wasted lol this cycle is ready to rock in a few days. I do have some m-sten and dmz on hand though, I've just strayed away from the prohormones.

I always like a kick just seems like starting a rocket vs airplane. If you read my post on liver toxic you might change your mind.
HCG doesn't prevent shutdown it mainly keeps balls awake doing nothing, but it takes a while for balls to fall asleep. and week 10 their sleeping but not much. I don't know anyone that runs hcg full cycle unless they have ran so many long cycles their testes immediately start to atrophy. If you don't want to just put HCG in the fridge and save I would run at 500iu a week and cry from the wasted money lol.

 

[fueledpassion]

Other supplements you should take if you can afford them:

Curcumin
COQ10
Nattokinase
Garlic extract
Cranberry extract
Multi-mineral
Lots and lots of water

Also, if you have trouble controlling estrogen, do smaller more frequent dosing and you'll get better results that way.

As for the cycle itself, I'd run 750mg and if I wanted to get it to kick in fast, I'd just front load about 1.5 - 2 grams into your system the first week, taking 500mg EOD first week then dropping to 1cc or so EOD after that. Front loading is a way better option than trashing your liver, lipids, BP and your ability to absorb nutrients because you are impatient. Another consideration is using Humulin-R in very low doses at each meal or 3-4 times daily the first 4 weeks. If you decided to do that, do it right and get a BG monitor and figure out how to control your BG levels before starting. If you need guidance, PM me because I'd rather you listen to me or someone who knows how to do it rather than guessing your way thru it.

 

[saywutrly]

Everything has been hashed over pretty well, but I'll add to a couple points without beating a dead horse. There are theories which would have you running the combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen at lower doses for the duration of PCT. If you are concerned about how easy it might be on your body, I have used toremifene with good success, but it is typically a significant amount more expensive than clomiphene or tamoxifen.

I agree that it would be better to run an oral kickstart vs test prop for the first leg of the cycle. If orals are harder for you to find, (I've met plenty of brewers who don't bother with orals because quality control is much more difficult in dry mixtures than liquid solutions) you can always run something like superdrol or trestolone as a kicker. I just successfully kicked a 750mg/wk test e cycle with trestolone. It's not too dry, so you look, feel, and perform as "on" almost right away.

As for HCG, there are two schools of thought. Some folks say to use low dose HCG throughout the cycle to counteract the negative feedback being sent through the HPTA to keep your balls producing and protect them from atrophy. I did this last cycle, and my balls stayed on boss size and ejaculate volume was porn quality. PCT was super smooth as well. This cycle, I'm experimenting with the "leave them shut off, then restart them after" method. Balls have definitely shrunk, but not down to nothing as I was imagining (but much moreso than any time I took PHs). Everything else is normal (except astronomical sex drive due to trestolone). It comes down to deciding what is best for you and your situation.

 

[Justlooking5]

I think that actually looks fine as you have it. Are you bulking? I feel you wasted your first cycle on a cut as it's thought the first cycle is the one you grow the most with.

You could also frontload the enanthate which is what I did at about 1 gram per week for a few weeks and I was getting gains fast.

 

[fueledpassion]

I think that actually looks fine as you have it. Are you bulking? I feel you wasted your first cycle on a cut as it's thought the first cycle is the one you grow the most with.


You could also frontload the enanthate which is what I did at about 1 gram per week for a few weeks and I was getting gains fast.

That's what I'd do, too. Everyone is different but I've front loaded witha few compounds and it always comes on smooth but faster obviously.

 

[saywutrly]

Is there a difference between frontloading a long ester for a single compound cycle and just adding a few weeks to said cycle?

 

[Justlooking5]

Is there a difference between frontloading a long ester for a single compound cycle and just adding a few weeks to said cycle?

I'm not sure as I didn't try it myself, but I think frontloading kind of gives you a "kick" or burst in the beginning (for example, for my test E cycle years ago at 850 a week I fl with 1250/week x 2 weeks and things got going fast if I remember).

As opposed to a slow buildup and gradual benefits by not front loading a long ester. Personally I do think it's better to either front load or use a fast acting compound like an oral (dbol etc) to get things rolling so you know when your cycle really starts and can make the best use of the time.

 

[fueledpassion]

I'm not sure as I didn't try it myself, but I think frontloading kind of gives you a "kick" or burst in the beginning (for example, for my test E cycle years ago at 850 a week I fl with 1250/week x 2 weeks and things got going fast if I remember).

As opposed to a slow buildup and gradual benefits by not front loading a long ester. Personally I do think it's better to either front load or use a fast acting compound like an oral (dbol etc) to get things rolling so you know when your cycle really starts and can make the best use of the time.

Basically, this.

A good front load has the blood values peaked by 7-10 days rather than 28-30 days.

I'd just take my desired weekly dose 3-4 days in a row the first week. So if I wanted to run 500mg/wk, I'd take that the first 4 days in a row and then wait til next week to start the 250mg X 2 weekly dosing scheme.

2cc in each spot. Two glutes and two lats/shoulders. Done. Start arimidex or aromasin immediately, of course.

The more fun thing to do is to take Trestolone Acetate @ 50mg/day the first 3-4 weeks w/ gobs of aromasin. You'll pack on 10lbs from that alone.