Do most people completely recover from AAS?

[mcc23]

There was a thread on here a couple weeks ago talking about if guys actually completely recover from any type of AAS/ DS cycles even with a solid PCT. I can't seem to find it but I was interested in picking up the discussion. If someone can find the thread, I'll gladly delete this one and continue the discussion.
In the meantime, what seems to be the consensus? Does clomid/nolva during PCT get your T back to pre cycle levels? Is it hit or miss?

 

[paul56778]

I did a 1 month Clomid run at 100mg 1st day then 50,50,25,25 , i also ran that with K1ngsblood by OL, and then the 2nd month i did another tub of K1ngsblood and now am 1 month into Test1fy, i will run another tub of Test1fy so this will basically be a 4 month recovery period, i am going to get my testosterone levels checked as a base at the end of this month before starting another cycle, i will determine from level if i have recovered or not.

My cycle was 250-500 mg Test and 300 mg Tren, i started with Tren Ace and Test P and then moved on to Test E and Tren E and then Sustanon which i much prefer over Test E due to having less water retention from it, also i started low with the test and ramped up, i ran this cycle for 12 weeks, but dropped then Tren after 10 due to the night sweats.

Also as a kicker i used M1T at 20mg per day and moved on to Superdrol at 20-30mg later on in the cycle, i tried Tr3st for 2 weeks after starting cycle 2 weeks in so for weeks 3 and 4 and dropped it due to a gyno scare, tender puffy nipples and jumped on Arimadex at a 1mg per day for around a month and then 1 mg EOD or E3D for remainder of cycle.

 

[Justlooking5]

Here's the thread I think you were referring to:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/291363-anyone-here-have.html

I started it as mentioned in the thread because I have persistent AAS induced low testosterone even though my last cycle was 12 years ago in 2005. (Most recent test levels were 369 ng/dl and have persistent ED, fatigue, low mood, anxiety, soft muscle look etc.)

I actually went to see my urologist yesterday and we are going to try clomid at 25mg/day x 6 weeks. It's day 2 on clomid and I can already feel my fatigue is a little better and energy/mood feels more stable.

I am also wondering if I should not just forget the half measures that never work (herbs) or aren't sustainable long term (clomid) and just go on TRT.

Personally, I did not recover fully from AAS use, even with months of clomid use in 2010/11/12 and a bunch of test boosting supps, good sleep, organic foods, 12% bodyfat, etc. That thread has some studies showing a large % of former AAS users have T levels in the lower 20% or otherwise suppressed.

I think whether you recover or not probably depends on a lot of factors like genetics, dose/duration, PCT (maybe), but it seems that having low natural test after AAS use is fairly prevalent.

 

[mcc23]

Here's the thread I think you were referring to:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/291363-anyone-here-have.html

I started it as mentioned in the thread because I have persistent AAS induced low testosterone even though my last cycle was 12 years ago in 2005. (Most recent test levels were 369 ng/dl and have persistent ED, fatigue, low mood, anxiety, soft muscle look etc.)

I actually went to see my urologist yesterday and we are going to try clomid at 25mg/day x 6 weeks. It's day 2 on clomid and I can already feel my fatigue is a little better and energy/mood feels more stable.

I am also wondering if I should not just forget the half measures that never work (herbs) or aren't sustainable long term (clomid) and just go on TRT.

Personally, I did not recover fully from AAS use, even with months of clomid use in 2010/11/12 and a bunch of test boosting supps, good sleep, organic foods, 12% bodyfat, etc. That thread has some studies showing a large % of former AAS users have T levels in the lower 20% or otherwise suppressed.

I think whether you recover or not probably depends on a lot of factors like genetics, dose/duration, PCT (maybe), but it seems that having low natural test after AAS use is fairly prevalent.

I've been playing with clomid as a standalone but can't seem to find a dose that doesn't have me either on edge, or just sad and depressed.

 

[Justlooking5]

Yeah, I'll have to see how it goes. I'm taking 25mg ED right now. It did get my levels over 1,000 ng/dl in the past before they slowly went back to the original baseline. Right now I'm thinking I will either do 6 week cycles of clomid 3-4x per year and try to maintain my levels above 600 in between with OTC supps, and see if that works, or just go on TRT. Clomid at least gives me a chance to get some relief while I look at options.

I was thinking today that TRT is expensive, sure (like 200 a month), but on the other hand I spend at least 1-200 a month on performance enhancing supps (BCAAs, adaptogens, creatine, etc.) when I could just stop buying most of that stuff and get better results with TRT. Plus likely feel a lot better. The main dissuading factor is what the health risks really are vs. short clomid cycles (as I'm either going to be doing TRT or clomid from now on, no longer going to continue with test levels in the 300s).

 

[mcc23]

Yeah, I'll have to see how it goes. I'm taking 25mg ED right now. It did get my levels over 1,000 ng/dl in the past before they slowly went back to the original baseline. Right now I'm thinking I will either do 6 week cycles of clomid 3-4x per year and try to maintain my levels above 600 in between with OTC supps, and see if that works, or just go on TRT. Clomid at least gives me a chance to get some relief while I look at options.

I was thinking today that TRT is expensive, sure (like 200 a month), but on the other hand I spend at least 1-200 a month on performance enhancing supps (BCAAs, adaptogens, creatine, etc.) when I could just stop buying most of that stuff and get better results with TRT. Plus likely feel a lot better. The main dissuading factor is what the health risks really are vs. short clomid cycles (as I'm either going to be doing TRT or clomid from now on, no longer going to continue with test levels in the 300s).

I would think that clomid would be the better option provided that you can find a dose that keeps T levels up but minimizes the crummy sides. I always joke that if you start on clomid, you need to buy a box of kleenex to go with

 

[Justlooking5]

For the tears or the giant loads? lol

 

[mcc23]

For the tears or the giant loads? lol

Tears lol

 

[fueledpassion]

I'd just be curious to know what people actually do after taking a steroid cycle. I find that most people I know that start tend to not stop, or at least adhere to a blast/cruise method.

I sort of stopped but never got enough bloods done to know how I was doing after all those oral PH/DS runs only. Nowadays, it looks like I'm mated with Test supplementation for life.

You know, given the demand for increased smarts, engagement, motivation, learning ability and drive in the workplace, I have to conclude that steroids are the single best mind-hack a man can consider for a quick rise to the top of the ranks.

 

[paul56778]

I'd just be curious to know what people actually do after taking a steroid cycle. I find that most people I know that start tend to not stop, or at least adhere to a blast/cruise method.

I sort of stopped but never got enough bloods done to know how I was doing after all those oral PH/DS runs only. Nowadays, it looks like I'm mated with Test supplementation for life.

You know, given the demand for increased smarts, engagement, motivation, learning ability and drive in the workplace, I have to conclude that steroids are the single best mind-hack a man can consider for a quick rise to the top of the ranks.

They say Test is Best.

 

[brofessorx]

I'd just be curious to know what people actually do after taking a steroid cycle.

I usually take my hormonal mood swings to anabolic minds and eat a lot.

 

[heavylifter33]

There was a thread on here a couple weeks ago talking about if guys actually completely recover from any type of AAS/ DS cycles even with a solid PCT. I can't seem to find it but I was interested in picking up the discussion. If someone can find the thread, I'll gladly delete this one and continue the discussion.
In the meantime, what seems to be the consensus? Does clomid/nolva during PCT get your T back to pre cycle levels? Is it hit or miss?

You're asking a question with many variables hoping for a black and white answer. Not gonna happen.

 

[Justlooking5]

I'd just be curious to know what people actually do after taking a steroid cycle. I find that most people I know that start tend to not stop, or at least adhere to a blast/cruise method.

I sort of stopped but never got enough bloods done to know how I was doing after all those oral PH/DS runs only. Nowadays, it looks like I'm mated with Test supplementation for life.

You know, given the demand for increased smarts, engagement, motivation, learning ability and drive in the workplace, I have to conclude that steroids are the single best mind-hack a man can consider for a quick rise to the top of the ranks.

Just curious, how old were you when you started TRT and how is it treating you so far in terms of results and side effects (blood work etc.?)

 

[rascal14]

Just curious, how old were you when you started TRT and how is it treating you so far in terms of results and side effects (blood work etc.?)

Side effects of TRT? There should be none besides the possible tiny cost and shut down, which I would not even consider side effects if you are to the point of needing TRT in the first place.

 

[Justlooking5]

Side effects of TRT? There should be none besides the possible tiny cost and shut down, which I would not even consider side effects if you are to the point of needing TRT in the first place.

Well, I have to take the time to do some research on it but I'm talking about lipid changes, hematocrit/hemoglobin, stroke risk, and then what the longer term studies show about long term health issues.

 

[fueledpassion]

I would think that clomid would be the better option provided that you can find a dose that keeps T levels up but minimizes the crummy sides. I always joke that if you start on clomid, you need to buy a box of kleenex to go with

So true. Only time I've ever cried in the past 12-13 years was on Clomid, two diferent times, lol. The most recent time, was from a single 50mg dose!

 

[fueledpassion]

Well, I have to take the time to do some research on it but I'm talking about lipid changes, hematocrit/hemoglobin, stroke risk, and then what the longer term studies show about long term health issues.

Nattokinase to reduce hema count and thin blood and anti-inflammatory supplements to keep arterial inflammation down (which is the root of most heart disease - not cholesterol levels).

 

[brofessorx]

No, you never recover, cause once you start, you'll never want to stop.

Dom says "The day you start lifting is the day you're forever small" well I say bull isht! The day you start juicing is the day you're forever small! Cause you'll never be big enough.
#chasing the dragon

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Well, I have to take the time to do some research on it but I'm talking about lipid changes, hematocrit/hemoglobin, stroke risk, and then what the longer term studies show about long term health issues.

I am interested in this topic as well. I seem to have kept my natty functions alive. I'm 33 with a base T level of 690. I don't know if that's average for mid 30's but I read an Endo article that says your Test levels are subjective. Meaning If I never did a cycle and at my age I would be at 900 than my mood, energy, labido ect. is actually suffering from the 200 IU drop. I cheated my way to get prescribed TRT just for free gear and from what I have read the only side effects to be concerned about don't become a worry until late in life. I too would prefer a clomid cruise rather than TRT if nothing other than the fact that I don't make that end all decision. I have seen an a guy who burned his balls out and was on TRT for years and when he lost his insurance and had no TRT his weight got cut in half and his mood went down hill bad.

 

[brofessorx]

Nattokinase to reduce hema count and thin blood and anti-inflammatory supplements to keep arterial inflammation down (which is the root of most heart disease - not cholesterol levels).

Word, in turn, keeping inflammation down will lower cholesterol.

 

[ZachH]

Not to hijack the thread, but is it possible to screw your natural hormones up permanently from one 8 week run of andro PH's? Everyone says youll never do just one cycle, but im curious if i really only do 1 8 week cycle with proper clomid pct, is there still a chance that things never return to normal?

 

[fueledpassion]

Not to hijack the thread, but is it possible to screw your natural hormones up permanently from one 8 week run of andro PH's? Everyone says youll never do just one cycle, but im curious if i really only do 1 8 week cycle with proper clomid pct, is there still a chance that things never return to normal?

I would venture to say that if you did get permanent shut down from a weak, 8 week cycle, you probably had problems to begin with. To know this for sure, you must get bloods done before hand to know where you started.

Other than that, the chances are slim. I'd say less than 5% chance (totally an arbitrary figure) a cycle like that would do any permanent long term damage in terms of test production and sterility.

 

[Justlooking5]

No, you never recover, cause once you start, you'll never want to stop.

Dom says "The day you start lifting is the day you're forever small" well I say bull isht! The day you start juicing is the day you're forever small! Cause you'll never be big enough.
#chasing the dragon

And once you come off you'll always know how much better it can be when you're on.

 

[paul56778]

Not to hijack the thread, but is it possible to screw your natural hormones up permanently from one 8 week run of andro PH's? Everyone says youll never do just one cycle, but im curious if i really only do 1 8 week cycle with proper clomid pct, is there still a chance that things never return to normal?

All of us are different like fueledpassion stated bloods would be the only way to know for sure, we are all different and respond diffrently to PH's AAS, but overall andros i feel are milder than some of the other older pro hormones such as M1T or Sdrol.

Also suppression from a 19 nor compound such as Tren or Deca or Even Trest which is probably the worst would be a different story.

 

[paul56778]

And once you come off you'll always know how much better it can be when you're on.

This is why it would just be better to not ever start unless to plan to keep cycling or stay on which i feel should only be considered for someone in competitive circles, e.g. for just looking good for the summer is a poor use and putting unnecessary risk to your body's hormonal systems.

 

[Justlooking5]

This is why it would just be better to not ever start unless to plan to keep cycling or stay on which i feel should only be considered for someone in competitive circles, e.g. for just looking good for the summer is a poor use and putting unnecessary risk to your body's hormonal systems.

Good point, and now that I have AAS induced low test myself (currently on Dr prescribed clomid 25mg/day for long term treatment) I definitely think people should be aware that even a few cycles of gear may put their natural test levels at a point where they are symptomatic (ED, depression, anxiety, fatigue) permanently.

However, it is really hard to tell that dedicated amateur bodybuilder who spends their whole life on training/diet/sleep to barely inch forward in gains due to genetics... I still totally understand why I used gear when I was younger. Also, in my case, I was healing a back injury with my first cycle of deca/winstrol/sust... and it did really help my back get better much faster than it was otherwise healing.

 

[Justlooking5]

I did a 1 month Clomid run at 100mg 1st day then 50,50,25,25 , i also ran that with K1ngsblood by OL, and then the 2nd month i did another tub of K1ngsblood and now am 1 month into Test1fy, i will run another tub of Test1fy so this will basically be a 4 month recovery period, i am going to get my testosterone levels checked as a base at the end of this month before starting another cycle, i will determine from level if i have recovered or not.

My cycle was 250-500 mg Test and 300 mg Tren, i started with Tren Ace and Test P and then moved on to Test E and Tren E and then Sustanon which i much prefer over Test E due to having less water retention from it, also i started low with the test and ramped up, i ran this cycle for 12 weeks, but dropped then Tren after 10 due to the night sweats.

Also as a kicker i used M1T at 20mg per day and moved on to Superdrol at 20-30mg later on in the cycle, i tried Tr3st for 2 weeks after starting cycle 2 weeks in so for weeks 3 and 4 and dropped it due to a gyno scare, tender puffy nipples and jumped on Arimadex at a 1mg per day for around a month and then 1 mg EOD or E3D for remainder of cycle.

BTW, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you won't know based on this time frame whether your natty test has recovered long term or not.

Here is why: Clomid will elevate your natural test sometimes for months after cessation. In my case, it took more than 1 YEAR for my test levels to return to baseline, but return they did (and then even lower years later). I had not recovered at all, but if I had taken my levels a few months after clomid as an indicator, I might have thought I had. Here is what my bloodwork showed:

Pre clomid T: 390

1/2011: T levels 1180 on clomid. Stop clomid

4/2011: T levels 617! (still high several months off clomid

7/2011: T levels ~480

11/2011: 440

7/2012: 390

3/2017: 369

So a few months out, it might have looked like I had recovered. When I haven't recovered at all. I think this is another reason why the possibility of permanent suppression from AAS goes unrecognized. Because people come off with clomid, get their levels tested a few months later, and assume they're good, when the clomid is still having a lingering effect.

 

[alvin1]

I did a 1 month Clomid run at 100mg 1st day then 50,50,25,25 , i also ran that with K1ngsblood by OL, and then the 2nd month i did another tub of K1ngsblood and now am 1 month into Test1fy, i will run another tub of Test1fy so this will basically be a 4 month recovery period, i am going to get my testosterone levels checked as a base at the end of this month before starting another cycle, i will determine from level if i have recovered or not.

My cycle was 250-500 mg Test and 300 mg Tren, i started with Tren Ace and Test P and then moved on to Test E and Tren E and then Sustanon which i much prefer over Test E due to having less water retention from it, also i started low with the test and ramped up, i ran this cycle for 12 weeks, but dropped then Tren after 10 due to the night sweats.

Also as a kicker i used M1T at 20mg per day and moved on to Superdrol at 20-30mg later on in the cycle, i tried Tr3st for 2 weeks after starting cycle 2 weeks in so for weeks 3 and 4 and dropped it due to a gyno scare, tender puffy nipples and jumped on Arimadex at a 1mg per day for around a month and then 1 mg EOD or E3D for remainder of cycle.

That a cycle! How much did you gain?

 

[paul56778]

That a cycle! How much did you gain?

47 lbs, i eat at maintenance calories or slightly under most days then had 7-9K Sundays every week.

I kept abs until end of bulk, they just blurred slightly i started at around 12st depleted of carbs to a max carbed up weight in am pre food and water of 15st 5.

Strength went up e.g. from benching 187lbs for 10 when cutting to 297lbs for 10 after cycle at start of PCT.

Front Squat also went from 198lbs for sets of 10 reps to 286lbs for 10 reps.

I am still able to bench 253lbs for 8-10 reps and 4-5 months post cycle and been cutting for past 12 weeks, last 6 being PSMF only 1100 calories per day, 198g pro, 30-50g cho, mainly from brocolli so fibre, and 15.4 grams of fat, 6 g coming from the omega 3.

Front Squat is at 231lbs for 8-10 reps, this is where i have lost most strength which has pissed me off, but i feel some was relative due to being 15 stone and now i am 12st 7.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

BTW, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you won't know based on this time frame whether your natty test has recovered long term or not.

Here is why: Clomid will elevate your natural test sometimes for months after cessation. In my case, it took more than 1 YEAR for my test levels to return to baseline, but return they did (and then even lower years later). I had not recovered at all, but if I had taken my levels a few months after clomid as an indicator, I might have thought I had. Here is what my bloodwork showed:

Pre clomid T: 390

1/2011: T levels 1180 on clomid. Stop clomid

4/2011: T levels 617! (still high several months off clomid

7/2011: T levels ~480

11/2011: 440

7/2012: 390

3/2017: 369

So a few months out, it might have looked like I had recovered. When I haven't recovered at all. I think this is another reason why the possibility of permanent suppression from AAS goes unrecognized. Because people come off with clomid, get their levels tested a few months later, and assume they're good, when the clomid is still having a lingering effect.

I agree completley. If the lingering affects of clomid last so long, what's your opinion on long term pulsing clomid. Ex get natty T up to 1000 than run five days of low dose every month? It may not fix the problem but might have a equal effect of a clomid Treatment with less exo-chems in your system.

Good point, and now that I have AAS induced low test myself (currently on Dr prescribed clomid 25mg/day for long term treatment) I definitely think people should be aware that even a few cycles of gear may put their natural test levels at a point where they are symptomatic (ED, depression, anxiety, fatigue) permanently.

However, it is really hard to tell that dedicated amateur bodybuilder who spends their whole life on training/diet/sleep to barely inch forward in gains due to genetics... I still totally understand why I used gear when I was younger. Also, in my case, I was healing a back injury with my first cycle of deca/winstrol/sust... and it did really help my back get better much faster than it was otherwise healing.

It's been way over a year since my last cycle and my base T sits at 690 but there is a lot to say about for T levels being "normal" VS what your genetic normal is. I have only read a bit on the subject but a lot of the anxiety, depression, fatigue ect, All of the low T side effects are neuro-chemical and if your body and brain are set to work properly at X level than even a moderate decrease can put $hit out of whak. I believe personally that AAS use has had enough of a suppressive effect on my hormonal axis that the "normal" 690 maybe should be 900 and that's a huge difference. I don't have the Big labido problem but I suffer from low T symptoms and most ppl aren't aware that "normal" may not be their normal. An analogy would be that all cars can run on a certain fuel:air mixture but that does not mean that the same amount is optimal for performance in every car.

 

[Justlooking5]

I agree completley. If the lingering affects of clomid last so long, what's your opinion on long term pulsing clomid. Ex get natty T up to 1000 than run five days of low dose every month? It may not fix the problem but might have a equal effect of a clomid Treatment with less exo-chems in your system.



It's been way over a year since my last cycle and my base T sits at 690 but there is a lot to say about for T levels being "normal" VS what your genetic normal is. I have only read a bit on the subject but a lot of the anxiety, depression, fatigue ect, All of the low T side effects are neuro-chemical and if your body and brain are set to work properly at X level than even a moderate decrease can put $hit out of whak. I believe personally that AAS use has had enough of a suppressive effect on my hormonal axis that the "normal" 690 maybe should be 900 and that's a huge difference. I don't have the Big labido problem but I suffer from low T symptoms and most ppl aren't aware that "normal" may not be their normal.

I actually completely agree with this (particularly the idea that AAS will suppress you from "X -where you should be naturally/started" to "Y - some decreased level resulting in low T symptoms." Have you checked your Free T and estradiol, prolactin etc. btw?

I am on clomid right now rx'ed almost 2 weeks ago by my urologist for my levels at 369 and actually the first things I noticed were a decrease in anxiety, particularly social anxiety, and a decrease in fatigue.

Now about 13 days after starting I do feel like my testosterone levels are higher but I also feel that clomid is suppressing my libido which just isn't that great.

I'm at 25mg/day now and plan to try reducing it to 25mg EOD in a few weeks to see if I can get increased T with less clomid side effects. A protocol I've read on a few sites that seems to work for what you're talking about (which I may try) is low dose clomid at 12.5mg ED or EOD for long term hypogonadism treatment. The clomid pulse idea of 5 days on 25 days off is interesting and I think potentially could work but you'd have to make sure with blood tests.

I will say that so far while clomid seems to be helping me with a few symptoms of low T, most noticeably a decrease in anxiety, fatigue, and depression feelings, and moderate improved sense of wellbeing, I am not getting the other benefits of good T levels yet such as increased libido, increased motivation, morning wood (I still NEVER have it). I also have had a few instances of feeling like crying for now reason lol.

I am planning to go talk to a few TRT clinics in June to discuss potentially starting TRT. Before I start TRT I will likely try the reduced clomid protocol (12.5mg EOD or so) to see if I get T benefits without clomid sides.

Thus far and from my reading I don't think you necessarily get the same T benefits from clomid that you do from TRT even if your total T is the same, at least not with frequent dosing.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I actually completely agree with this (particularly the idea that AAS will suppress you from "X -where you should be naturally/started" to "Y - some decreased level resulting in low T symptoms." Have you checked your Free T and estradiol, prolactin etc. btw?

I am on clomid right now rx'ed almost 2 weeks ago by my urologist for my levels at 369 and actually the first things I noticed were a decrease in anxiety, particularly social anxiety, and a decrease in fatigue.

Now about 13 days after starting I do feel like my testosterone levels are higher but I also feel that clomid is suppressing my libido which just isn't that great.

I'm at 25mg/day now and plan to try reducing it to 25mg EOD in a few weeks to see if I can get increased T with less clomid side effects. A protocol I've read on a few sites that seems to work for what you're talking about (which I may try) is low dose clomid at 12.5mg ED or EOD for long term hypogonadism treatment. The clomid pulse idea of 5 days on 25 days off is interesting and I think potentially could work but you'd have to make sure with blood tests.

I will say that so far while clomid seems to be helping me with a few symptoms of low T, most noticeably a decrease in anxiety, fatigue, and depression feelings, and moderate improved sense of wellbeing, I am not getting the other benefits of good T levels yet such as increased libido, increased motivation, morning wood (I still NEVER have it). I also have had a few instances of feeling like crying for now reason lol.

I am planning to go talk to a few TRT clinics in June to discuss potentially starting TRT. Before I start TRT I will likely try the reduced clomid protocol (12.5mg EOD or so) to see if I get T benefits without clomid sides.

Thus far and from my reading I don't think you necessarily get the same T benefits from clomid that you do from TRT even if your total T is the same, at least not with frequent dosing.

To answer your questions: I had full BW 3 months ago and 1 month ago. The normal one was 3 months ago and everything was great. For unkown reasons my FT, HGH,LH are always higher than norm or high norm I do take 50,000iu of vit D 2x week. FT 32 w 6-25 scale LH was high norm and HGH is 2x norm for around last 6 years don't know why TT 690. E2 was norm, Prolac norm, lipid norm, liver norm, Bp ect norm.

As for the 1 month BW it was after I ran a 1 month cycle of clomid 12.5 mg E3D and results were TT 1170, FT 87 w6-25 scale, E2 lowest norm (don't know why, no AI) LH higher than norm (expected) HGH 2x norm (it must all go to my d!ck lol) everything else norm.

So I don't get the mood swings when I'm on clomid I'm just always a bit down, but I do get most other sides and for PCT i only can handle 50mg. I really think once you get your TT and FT where you want then, you can easily cruise on 12.5 mg EOD I raised mine 120% with 12.5 E3D.
As for your labido you might find this stupid but, my work buddy eats pumpkin seeds all day for erections and he is early 50s. I tried pumpkin seed powder and sure enough it takes a while but it does work just have to eat a lot. It works for both sex craving and erections but morning wood eh, I only get that 1 month and it's not a tree trunk but I'm 33.

I don't know if I could handle the sides of 25mg long term, do they lessen with time? As for TRT VS Clomid, I don't know what to say. I know TRT is amazing for ppl that jump on and it's getting more perfected. It's no longer the Sterlized, no balls, need for needle that it once was. It's still a life commitment so depends on your UGL prices or your health insurance. On other hand Clomid might be able to get same effect with tweaking and avoid total shutdown. Adding support supps, maybe a natural AI like Nettle extract, and Add Zinc, Vite D. and go from there. If I were you I would try a few clomid PROGRAMs before TRT but that just what I would do. I have just started experimenting with clomid as a semi-natty T booster so I'm not an expert on it but so far I really like it as an option.

 

[Justlooking5]

To answer your questions: I had full BW 3 months ago and 1 month ago. The normal one was 3 months ago and everything was great. For unkown reasons my FT, HGH,LH are always higher than norm or high norm I do take 50,000iu of vit D 2x week. FT 32 w 6-25 scale LH was high norm and HGH is 2x norm for around last 6 years don't know why TT 690. E2 was norm, Prolac norm, lipid norm, liver norm, Bp ect norm.

As for the 1 month BW it was after I ran a 1 month cycle of clomid 12.5 mg E3D and results were TT 1170, FT 87 w6-25 scale, E2 lowest norm (don't know why, no AI) LH higher than norm (expected) HGH 2x norm (it must all go to my d!ck lol) everything else norm.

So I don't get the mood swings when I'm on clomid I'm just always a bit down, but I do get most other sides and for PCT i only can handle 50mg. I really think once you get your TT and FT where you want then, you can easily cruise on 12.5 mg EOD I raised mine 120% with 12.5 E3D.
As for your labido you might find this stupid but, my work buddy eats pumpkin seeds all day for erections and he is early 50s. I tried pumpkin seed powder and sure enough it takes a while but it does work just have to eat a lot. It works for both sex craving and erections but morning wood eh, I only get that 1 month and it's not a tree trunk but I'm 33.

I don't know if I could handle the sides of 25mg long term, do they lessen with time? As for TRT VS Clomid, I don't know what to say. I know TRT is amazing for ppl that jump on and it's getting more perfected. It's no longer the Sterlized, no balls, need for needle that it once was. It's still a life commitment so depends on your UGL prices or your health insurance. On other hand Clomid might be able to get same effect with tweaking and avoid total shutdown. Adding support supps, maybe a natural AI like Nettle extract, and Add Zinc, Vite D. and go from there. If I were you I would try a few clomid PROGRAMs before TRT but that just what I would do. I have just started experimenting with clomid as a semi-natty T booster so I'm not an expert on it but so far I really like it as an option.

Interesting that you were able to get T levels to almost 1200 from clomid 12.5mg E3D, I am thinking of trying a similar protocol after my initial "boost" using 25mg/day.

The fact that your free T and HGH are so high is crazy though. Were you taking anything other than 50k iu Vitamin D 2x/week during this time?

In my case I was doing high dose vitamin D (with Vit D at 42) yet my test levels were still 369 ng, and were unchanged a few years ago after raising my D from 27 to 35, so it doesn't seem to help me much (and I was doing 50k iu 1x/week around the time my test came back at 369).

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

Interesting that you were able to get T levels to almost 1200 from clomid 12.5mg E3D, I am thinking of trying a similar protocol after my initial "boost" using 25mg/day.

The fact that your free T and HGH are so high is crazy though. Were you taking anything other than 50k iu Vitamin D 2x/week during this time?

In my case I was doing high dose vitamin D (with Vit D at 42) yet my test levels were still 369 ng, and were unchanged a few years ago after raising my D from 27 to 35, so it doesn't seem to help me much (and I was doing 50k iu 1x/week around the time my test came back at 369).

I honestly don't think the Vit D is the cause I just mentioned it. So The run of clomid was also in conjunction with a theory that drastically lowering my SBHG would raise my FT and I presumed this would be more drastic if on a cycle, I assumed it would raise my E2 as well.keep in mind I have not yet gotten another base BW and tested this again but this was the

protocol: Clomid 12.5mg E3D, Nettle root extract 10:1 (lowers SBHG and mild AI) 1gram 2x day, Vit D 50000 iu 2x week, Guarana 4g in morning, Now liver detox 3 caps ed, Now Adam multi Vit (has lots of nat T ingredients) zinc 50mg eod, Fish oil 3x week, glucose/chondroit/Msm 3xweek, and Im reahabbing a really bad injury so I was on TB-500& BPC-157 .25mg eod. I wave had the 2x HGH for a long time no doc can explain it. havn't had my FT tested long enough to know how why its above average in the normal state.

FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DID NOT EXPECT FT 87ng. I asked doc if miss test was possible he said not if FT is norm along with everything else. The only thing I can think is the neetle extract works in a decent capacity but I still think there is another variable i'm missing that caused an 87.

I'm also prescribed Tramadol(pain) Baclifen(muscle relax) Effexor(anit-depress) and diff sleep meds. The 1170 TT was a great satisfaction and next cycle I'm going to run a clomid prep-cycle, it might have helped FT but don't know enough if there is like some apex that clomid hits IJDK. I've since taken the nettle 2g ed cuz a 2 kilo bag cost $110.

 

[Justlooking5]

I wonder if it was the nettle then. That's a pretty impressive result. Just curious, how was your libido on clomid 12.5mg E3D w/ the nettle? Because on 25mg/day mine is almost gone, actually worse than before starting clomid even though energy/mood is better. BTW, can you tell me what brand nettle that was? (PM if unable to post name on this forum?)

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I wonder if it was the nettle then. That's a pretty impressive result. Just curious, how was your libido on clomid 12.5mg E3D w/ the nettle? Because on 25mg/day mine is almost gone, actually worse than before starting clomid even though energy/mood is better. BTW, can you tell me what brand nettle that was? (PM if unable to post name on this forum?)

I really am leaning towards the nettle either being the main factor or as some type of very good combination of what I listed and probably has clomid and nettle at the heart.I was so blown away because an 87 FT is over the equivalent of what 500mg of Test E metabolizes into FT in 1 day and that was swimming in my blood for a while. My BW was on week 3. I really want to repeat the test but just as you mentioned it takes a while for clomid to leave the system. and I want to really eliminate any unknown factors. I have even pondered If the nettle could be contaminated with a Test based steroid powder but it comes from a great whole saler and country of origin is Brazil so I doubt it.

As for Labito; It seemed lower than normal but not too bad. I just really could take it or leave it and chose to take it and enjoyed it once I began with no ED of any sort. It just wasn't a priority at all. Not nearly as bad as during PCT but not anything that I would tolerate long term without trying to improve it.

I also wanted to mention incase it got skipped over that on Clomid nettle run my E2 was the lowest number in norm( can't remember exact but lowest on the scale. I later found out from someone else that nettle has a AI in it. I was told that it has a mild AI but clomid usually raises E2 for me to high norm. I also expected the lower SBHG to free up some estro as well but the nettle killed my E2 and found out that at 2+ g ed it does the same for other guys.

I do know that for best labido you need a balanced E2 along with high Test so I'm not sure if this played any role in low labido

 

[Justlooking5]

I like the sound of that high free T. Interestingly, although I have no idea if it had anything to do with it, the one time my test levels came back decent after being off clomid was after I had been off it for 2-3 months with levels at 617, and I was IIRC taking nettle at that time. Perhaps nettle works well alongside/after clomid. I have some and will be adding it to my regimen at 600mg daily, I may consider increasing to 900mg+ depending on estro levels. Current testosterone stack is:

Clomid 25mg/day, Nettle 600mg/day, Shilajit 500mg/day, KSM-66 600mg/day, 5k iu vitamin D/day

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I like the sound of that high free T. Interestingly, although I have no idea if it had anything to do with it, the one time my test levels came back decent after being off clomid was after I had been off it for 2-3 months with levels at 617, and I was IIRC taking nettle at that time. Perhaps nettle works well alongside/after clomid. I have some and will be adding it to my regimen at 600mg daily, I may consider increasing to 900mg+ depending on estro levels. Current testosterone stack is:

Clomid 25mg/day, Nettle 600mg/day, Shilajit 500mg/day, KSM-66 600mg/day, 5k iu vitamin D/day

Wow that is quite a coincidence. I really wonder if somehow it reacts to clomid in a certain way that increases it's effect on both SBHG suppression, FT, and lowering E2. I would really like to see another guy have similar results.

Just a suggestion but, I'm sure you know how important zinc is for Test, but it also has great affect on labido if dosed around 50mg and It would be interesting to mimic my routine as close as reasonable. If you want to bump nettle up to 1g try buying bulk 10:1 extract powder it's really cheap compared to capsules.

 

[fueledpassion]

I wonder if it was the nettle then. That's a pretty impressive result. Just curious, how was your libido on clomid 12.5mg E3D w/ the nettle? Because on 25mg/day mine is almost gone, actually worse than before starting clomid even though energy/mood is better. BTW, can you tell me what brand nettle that was? (PM if unable to post name on this forum?)

Well Nettle does increase free T, just wouldn't have expected it to increase by that much. For what it is worth, Datbtrue always recommended this protocol, and he is alot smarter than just about everyone else (outside of the professional medical research community) on the subject matter of endocrinology.

 

[Justlooking5]

Wow that is quite a coincidence. I really wonder if somehow it reacts to clomid in a certain way that increases it's effect on both SBHG suppression, FT, and lowering E2. I would really like to see another guy have similar results.

Just a suggestion but, I'm sure you know how important zinc is for Test, but it also has great affect on labido if dosed around 50mg and It would be interesting to mimic my routine as close as reasonable. If you want to bump nettle up to 1g try buying bulk 10:1 extract powder it's really cheap compared to capsules.

Thanks, I'll consider adding zinc to the protocol.

I will be getting blood work in July which will show where my levels (including E2 and FT) so we'll see how the clomid/herbal stack works

 

[Justlooking5]

Well Nettle does increase free T, just wouldn't have expected it to increase by that much. For what it is worth, Datbtrue always recommended this protocol, and he is alot smarter than just about everyone else (outside of the professional medical research community) on the subject matter of endocrinology.

Interesting, he recommended Nettle and clomid combo?

 

[pyrobatt]

There was a thread on here a couple weeks ago talking about if guys actually completely recover from any type of AAS/ DS cycles even with a solid PCT. I can't seem to find it but I was interested in picking up the discussion. If someone can find the thread, I'll gladly delete this one and continue the discussion.
In the meantime, what seems to be the consensus? Does clomid/nolva during PCT get your T back to pre cycle levels? Is it hit or miss?

For most people they will recover if pct is 100% but never to the same degree as before use.

 

[mcc23]

For most people they will recover if pct is 100% but never to the same degree as before use.

Never?

 

[Justlooking5]

Never?

Yes.

In my opinion and from the studies I've read about ex-AAS users showing a large # (majority) have testosterone in the lower ranges, something about AAS permanently downregulates the HPTA axis to some degree in a large number of users, and yes it is generally permanent and will never get better without constant medication such as TRT or clomid forever.

In my case, my test levels are in the 300s and I have ED, fatigue, depression, social anxiety all of which I did not used to have and which really started in earnest after my last AAS cycle. Which was in 2006. Clomid gets my levels back up and helps many of these symptoms but after cessation it always goes back to the 300s range and symptoms return no matter what I'm doing, including good sleep, high vitamin D levels, organic diet w/ plenty of fat/cholesterol, low bodyfat, and training/cardio. Nothing gets it better.

 

[mcc23]

Yes.

In my opinion and from the studies I've read about ex-AAS users showing a large # (majority) have testosterone in the lower ranges, something about AAS permanently downregulates the HPTA axis to some degree in a large number of users, and yes it is generally permanent and will never get better without constant medication such as TRT or clomid forever.

In my case, my test levels are in the 300s and I have ED, fatigue, depression, social anxiety all of which I did not used to have and which really started in earnest after my last AAS cycle. Which was in 2005. Clomid gets my levels back up and helps many of these symptoms but after cessation it always goes back to the 300s range and symptoms return no matter what I'm doing, including good sleep, high vitamin D levels, organic diet w/ plenty of fat/cholesterol, low bodyfat, and training/cardio. Nothing gets it better.

Reading that is depressing. Sorry to hear that

 

[Brave]

What was different on your last cycle/pct vs prior cycles - if anything?

 

[fueledpassion]

Interesting, he recommended Nettle and clomid combo?

Yes, those were the two main things in his PCT. It's worth noting that his cycles were 6 months long and his PCT was 6 months long too and he t ook 4-6 months off from everything after that as well.

The only other thing he routinely would do is to take 2000-4000iu of HCG just before starting Clomid to give the testicles sperm volume back and to get things moving again. Clomid has a hard time getting things started on it's own but it does well to maintain an already existing pace of T production.

 

[Justlooking5]

What was different on your last cycle/pct vs prior cycles - if anything?

Actually yes. On my last cycle I think I made the following errors that may have made things worse:

1. I used UG gear of unknown quality I bought from a buddy (who was also using it). In the past, I always had ordered the gear from sources I trusted, and generally much of my gear was pharma grade sealed amps. I had a bad reaction after coming off this cycle, including severe eczema with large red patches all over my face and neck... eczema runs in my family but I have never had it before or since the year or so after I came off that cycle. Was there something poisonous/contaminated in that gear? Or was it how I PCT'd that messed up my hormones badly causing excema/ severe dry inflamed skin?

2. I came off using an OTC PCT product based on forum recommendations. This was ATD, the anti-estrogen. It did not work well and I have read this product may actually decrease LH and compete at the AR (unsure if that's true). All other cycles I used clomid/nolva PCT.

3. I stayed on for about 16 weeks or so, longer than any of my past cycles.

I advise against doing any of the above. Some really stressful negative stuff also happened in my life just after I came off which I think made everything worse.

However, I also want to make a few points. I first had the beginnings of ED at age 19 (girlfriend complained of "soft erections") which was after my first cycle of sust/deca/dbol. However I did not have the same depression, fatigue, anxiety, more severe ED, and other issues which only started after the above cycle.

Nonetheless, it has been now ~11 full years since that cycle (it was from winter 2005 to early 2006 I did this cycle). I haven't done any gear or any other prohormone type product since then. I also did prescribed clomid from my doctor for many months in 2010/11/12 and although it got my levels up they still returned to the 300s.

Now, I have restarted clomid again from my doctor and I definitely notice a big improvement in anxiety reduction, fatigue reduction, mood stabilization. Libido as mentioned is not much different (about 2 weeks in 25mg/day). I know now that I'll never be going off clomid or TRT as it really affects my functioning and QoL negatively to have test levels in the 300s. In fact, some of my family members even know (mom etc.) and agree as they have seen and been pretty concerned with how miserable I've been. Low test is no joke and will negatively affect a number of aspects of your functioning, including energy, mood, sexual health, social wellbeing/strength etc. Which is why I won't be going off treatment.

 

[fueledpassion]

Actually yes. On my last cycle I think I made the following errors that may have made things worse:

1. I used UG gear of unknown quality I bought from a buddy (who was also using it). In the past, I always had ordered the gear from sources I trusted, and generally much of my gear was pharma grade sealed amps. I had a bad reaction after coming off this cycle, including severe eczema with large red patches all over my face and neck... eczema runs in my family but I have never had it before or since the year or so after I came off that cycle. Was there something poisonous/contaminated in that gear? Or was it how I PCT'd that messed up my hormones badly causing excema/ severe dry inflamed skin?

2. I came off using an OTC PCT product based on forum recommendations. This was ATD, the anti-estrogen. It did not work well and I have read this product may actually decrease LH and compete at the AR (unsure if that's true). All other cycles I used clomid/nolva PCT.

3. I stayed on for about 16 weeks or so, longer than any of my past cycles.

I advise against doing any of the above. Some really stressful negative stuff also happened in my life just after I came off which I think made everything worse.

However, I also want to make a few points. I first had the beginnings of ED at age 19 (girlfriend complained of "soft erections") which was after my first cycle of sust/deca/dbol. However I did not have the same depression, fatigue, anxiety, more severe ED, and other issues which only started after the above cycle.

Nonetheless, it has been now ~11 full years since that cycle (it was from winter 2005 to early 2006 I did this cycle). I haven't done any gear or any other prohormone type product since then. I also did prescribed clomid from my doctor for many months in 2010/11/12 and although it got my levels up they still returned to the 300s.

Now, I have restarted clomid again from my doctor and I definitely notice a big improvement in anxiety reduction, fatigue reduction, mood stabilization. Libido as mentioned is not much different (about 2 weeks in 25mg/day). I know now that I'll never be going off clomid or TRT as it really affects my functioning and QoL negatively to have test levels in the 300s. In fact, some of my family members even know (mom etc.) and agree as they have seen and been pretty concerned with how miserable I've been. Low test is no joke and will negatively affect a number of aspects of your functioning, including energy, mood, sexual health, social wellbeing/strength etc. Which is why I won't be going off treatment.

It also affects learning ability and memory as well but to a varying degree. I'm being careful not to insinuate that people with low T or no T (like women) aren't capable of being very smart but I will say that increased Test levels does positively affect learning interest (curiosity) and learning ability in both men and women and in a dose dependent fashion up to a point. Testosterone dominant minds lean towards spatial memory and thinking and generally prefer to "figure things out" and stay objective in thought and estrogen-dominant minds prefer for their emotional state to be tickled more than anything, hence the polar opposite preferences between men and women in many things such as reading material, for instance. I think that reality is confirmed throughout history when we see that most discoveries and breakthroughs and especially modern discoveries and breakthroughs have been by men, who naturally possess a higher level of Testosterone and basal dopamine levels. I also firmly believe that by taking Test for the several years that I have done so has increased several-fold my curiosity and ability to learn. I don't share this much with others because it is a secret advantage to have this in a competing workforce.

 

[FRITZBLITZ]

I just want to make sure everyone who reads this post realizes that this is a discussion of PROBABILITIES after using AAS. I don't think anyone here is bashing them, I for one do not regret my AAS use up to now. I wish I headed more advice but I have been very careful. Unfortunatly just as Justlooking and fuiled passion have explained; YOU WILL NEVER BE THE SAME after AAS use. Even if its a 5% decline in your labido and 10% decline in your mental health it will leave at minimum a small negative change. There is always a trade off in life, nothing is for free and AAS are no exception. As I stated before even if my BW doesn't show it I have changed; at this point it's a bit cognitive, mostly mental health stuff. And it's best knowing this going in or going on cuz the more you do the more effect it can have. Still everyone is affected differently and there are many things in life that have lasting bad sides, ppl get diabetes, lots of partying catches up to you ect.