Maintain HPTA function after clomid therapy?

Justlooking5

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Just to give a brief history: I'm a 34 y/o former AAS user (last cycle 2005) who has been having issues with ED, mood, social anxiety, low energy, motivation, libido since going off my last cycle of Test E/Turinabol/Dbol in 2005. I did improper PCT after this cycle (took ATD supp. instead of clomid based on forum suggestions) and my endocrine system crashed hardcore, with severe bloating, significant depression, ED, severe excema, etc.

In 2010 I was tested with a testosterone level of 390, and found a Dr. who put me on 25mg/day clomid x a few months which brought my levels to ~1,000-1,100. After stopping clomid, my testoterone levels progressed as follows:

1/2011: 1,180 ng/dl, stop clomid

4/2011: 617 ng/dl (was taking nettle at this time)

6/2011: 480 ng/dl (not taking nettle)

11/2011: 440 ng/dl

7/2012: 390 ng/dl

So basically I took the clomid, it raised my levels and I felt a lot better. But after stopping clomid my test slowly fell back to 390.

Fast forward to today: Symptoms the same/worse than in the past, ED and fatigue worse in particular. Get a test level which came back at 369 ng/dl. Vit D was good at 42ng. I went back to the same Dr. who thankfully was willing to try clomid with me again at 25mg/day x 6 weeks, which I started today. In 6 weeks I'll be getting a panel including Test total/free, Prolactin, E2.

Main point: I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on what I could do to increase the chances that my elevated test remains elevated (closer to 5-700ng/dl) after stopping clomid. I am currently taking Shilajit 750mg/day, Ashwaghanda KSM-66 600mg/day, Vitamin D. I've previously tried longjack, stinging nettle, etc., none of which really made me feel much better and my ED etc. continued.
 

DennisC1986

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Bump, I'd like to hear what someone with some knowledge has to say as well
 
Justlooking5

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I'm increasingly thinking that the only way to maintain levels for most men after clomid is to either stay on a low dose of clomid (or do frequent cycles like 6 weeks on, 2 months off, 6 weeks on, etc.) or to go with TRT.

I've been reading online and it seems like most guys who take clomid will pretty much always fall back to their previous levels after enough time (could be 6-12 months) off clomid has passed. The exception being if you're taking clomid immediately after coming off gear with very suppressed T levels.

However I would be interested in anyone's thoughts and suggestions. Perhaps maintaining higher levels could involve addressing excess estrogen that may build up naturally or be present in higher amounts after clomid?
 
Billd1982

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I'm increasingly thinking that the only way to maintain levels for most men after clomid is to either stay on a low dose of clomid (or do frequent cycles like 6 weeks on, 2 months off, 6 weeks on, etc.) or to go with TRT.

I've been reading online and it seems like most guys who take clomid will pretty much always fall back to their previous levels after enough time (could be 6-12 months) off clomid has passed. The exception being if you're taking clomid immediately after coming off gear with very suppressed T levels.

However I would be interested in anyone's thoughts and suggestions. Perhaps maintaining higher levels could involve addressing excess estrogen that may build up naturally or be present in higher amounts after clomid?
Would you recommend an AI if running Clomid at 12.5ED ? If so OTC or script
 
Justlooking5

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To be honest I don't know. I will be getting some bloodwork after my current 6 week clomid run that will include estradiol so that might help.

At the moment I don't feel my estrogen is high (actually seems lower, less bloat/softness) but it's only been a few days.

Just curious, I'm thinking of eventually going to 12.5mg ED or EOD ... have you had your test levels checked at that dose?
 

DennisC1986

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My levels were in the 300s and the doctors I saw kept telling me that was normal for a 30 year old, i disagreed. I had used some sarms without proper pct last year. Now I'm doing 1/4/epi and I'm going to pct with clomid. Hoping my levels will normalize when it's all said and done
 
Justlooking5

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Mine are in the 300s too and I have hypogonadism. 300s are not normal if you're having symptoms (also it's very near the lower limit threshold for ALL age groups including 80+ men). If you have used AAS/Prohormones you may have suppressed your natural levels which is also possibly different from someone who has levels in the 300s, has never used AAS, and isn't having symptoms. It could be that guy is more normal for his body, while you and I should have levels in the 600s like most people in our age range, but don't because of suppression from hormone use.

I get that tapdance from doctors too about "normal levels." My uro understand my levels are near the lower range which is why he prescribed clomid.
 
Justlooking5

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My levels were in the 300s and the doctors I saw kept telling me that was normal for a 30 year old, i disagreed. I had used some sarms without proper pct last year. Now I'm doing 1/4/epi and I'm going to pct with clomid. Hoping my levels will normalize when it's all said and done
BTW, I meant did you have your levels checked while on clomid at 12.5mg ED? I'm trying to get a sense of where that much clomid would put your T levels
 
Joedoubledose

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I'd go trt man , you can't put a price on your mental health and having a happy life ya know
 
JahCure

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I'd go trt man , you can't put a price on your mental health and having a happy life ya know
On the other hand going on TRT in your 30's leaves a loooong time of being on injectable testosterone and the complications along with it down the line.

I like the thought of trying the clomid therapy first to see if you can artificially elevate your levels.
 
fueledpassion

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GHRP's might help indirectly, as they are loosely connected to test/estrogen levels. Many other hormones play a role in how well your body secretes LH. I'd consider two novel things before giving up:

1) Intramuscular ATP - which stimulates LH mildly

2) Botanic Craft Palm Fruit which keeps leydig cells healthy and can boost LH production.

See if using those for a month or two can boost total T. You might also consider getting back on that SNR like before. Adequate melatonin and good sleep amount to significant T production and getting enough Zinc in your diet also matters.

Also, having more muscle mass, less fat, a high cholesterol amount to heartier amounts of Test production in the body. The low T is probably an indicator for something else entirely. It's probably not in it's own vacuum but rathet low T is a result of something else. As I implied before, low cholesterol and high fat mass can negatively affect T levels.
 

DennisC1986

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I agree, which is why I was so frustrated with this doctor. I don't drink alcohol, gave up cigarettes, eat super healthy, work out regularly, and have very little body fat. But they kept saying the levels fluctuate and you're still in the normal range.. Yeah literally the very bottom of the range. I'm going to do 50/50/25/25 clomid after this cycle hopefully it will help. I didn't have a ton of symptoms but felt it was harder to keep an erection.
 

DennisC1986

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BTW, I meant did you have your levels checked while on clomid at 12.5mg ED? I'm trying to get a sense of where that much clomid would put your T levels
Nope haven't started the clomid yet.
 
Justlooking5

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GHRP's might help indirectly, as they are loosely connected to test/estrogen levels. Many other hormones play a role in how well your body secretes LH. I'd consider two novel things before giving up:

1) Intramuscular ATP - which stimulates LH mildly

2) Botanic Craft Palm Fruit which keeps leydig cells healthy and can boost LH production.

See if using those for a month or two can boost total T. You might also consider getting back on that SNR like before. Adequate melatonin and good sleep amount to significant T production and getting enough Zinc in your diet also matters.

Also, having more muscle mass, less fat, a high cholesterol amount to heartier amounts of Test production in the body. The low T is probably an indicator for something else entirely. It's probably not in it's own vacuum but rathet low T is a result of something else. As I implied before, low cholesterol and high fat mass can negatively affect T levels.
I appreciate it. However, I have low T that just does not respond to the typical purported "t-booster" approaches.

As an example, when my levels were measured at 369 ng/dl this March (9am), I was about 210 at 11-12% bodyfat measured by caliper. Plenty lean. I was doing the following at the time: High sat fat diet, high potency probiotics, tocotrienols (palm oil extract for LH), periodic ZMA, intermittent fasting. Nothing helps. It's because of AAS use I'm pretty sure, or also possibly due to hernia surgery when I was very young in combination.

I've tried so many things over the past few years (basically every OTC remedy/diet plan/supp) and nothing really made me feel much better until starting clomid. BTW, last time clomid at 25mg/day boosted my levels from high 300s to over 1,000 so it is not surprising I am feeling so much better after starting it again.
 
Justlooking5

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On the other hand going on TRT in your 30's leaves a loooong time of being on injectable testosterone and the complications along with it down the line.

I like the thought of trying the clomid therapy first to see if you can artificially elevate your levels.
I'm going to try clomid for now but I agree with Joe ultimately I will be going on TRT as I'm not sure clomid is viable for years or safer than TRT long term. I'll have to research the sides more and see what I can do to minimize them.

At this point though I've decided I won't be going off clomid unless it is to start TRT as I am not going to back to feeling crappy all the time again. What I may do though is after 6 or so weeks at 25mg/day is reduce it to 12.5mg ED or EOD + OTC test boosters and see where that takes me.

Right now I'm combing clomid with: Primavie Shilajit 750mg/day (I think this is a great supp so far for energy, strength, supposedly boosts DHEA and boosts test by 20% but only after taking it for 2 months in sponsored studies), KSM-66 600mg/day, Boron 6mg 3x/week, DHEA 25mg eod
 
Joedoubledose

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Just for added benefit to help free up your test and lower shbg Add in either wheat grass , long jack , boron , magnesium/zinc , stinging nettle root or several of those choices
 
Justlooking5

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Just for added benefit to help free up your test and lower shbg Add in either wheat grass , long jack , boron , magnesium/zinc , stinging nettle root or several of those choices
Yep I am planning on doing boron and nettle to counteract the possible rise in SHBG from clomid.
 
fueledpassion

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I appreciate it. However, I have low T that just does not respond to the typical purported "t-booster" approaches.

As an example, when my levels were measured at 369 ng/dl this March (9am), I was about 210 at 11-12% bodyfat measured by caliper. Plenty lean. I was doing the following at the time: High sat fat diet, high potency probiotics, tocotrienols (palm oil extract for LH), periodic ZMA, intermittent fasting. Nothing helps. It's because of AAS use I'm pretty sure, or also possibly due to hernia surgery when I was very young in combination.

I've tried so many things over the past few years (basically every OTC remedy/diet plan/supp) and nothing really made me feel much better until starting clomid. BTW, last time clomid at 25mg/day boosted my levels from high 300s to over 1,000 so it is not surprising I am feeling so much better after starting it again.
I'd still give the ATP a shot. It is truly a novel supplement but is invasive in that it requires injection. Look up Synthetek. I notice similar effects as hcg when I take it in terms of testicular size (while cycling steroids of course)
 

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