What causing those side effects

[Rishy]

Hi guys , I'm 4 weeks in (I'm 22 old) my first cycle wich is consitsted of ostarine 30mg ED LGD 15mg ED and mk677(with 300mcg huperzine) 25mg 5 times daily . I started using last week super DHEA 1 pump daily and 4 caps of ar1macre pro . This week I noticed many weird things I'm not sure wich of these cause it but mostly what I HATE is mental things like bringing back anxiety.
Here is a list of what I noticed this week:
Leeethargy sleeping 8-9hours still feeling need more sleep , weak feeling in muscles is it's fatigued , not motivated to train and get tired easily same in class
sometimes pain in shoulders, elbows and knees
Holding much water
weak pumps while working out , flat muscles and soft look not pumped in day even if taking 10g of creatine
NO noticeable added muscle maybe added just more water and fat in last weeks wich is very weird
elevated heart rate and adrenaline more like everyday is a flight of fight mode , hand shaking numbness
Libido not the same but didn't hurt much
now the mental side effects wich sucks feeling like crap
some depression "attacks" from time to time
ANXIETY! especially social and shaking one I was dealing with it before but I got better but it hit me again this week , the point that going to the doctor made me anxious socially and shaky .

I think the issue is low estrogen due to AI in super dhea and ar1macre pro or they increase other hormones that increase anxiety and flight or fight mode and that doens't explain the bloated soft look. wich make this no more enjoyble unlike the first 2 weeks that were enjoyable mentally and physically.

What guys can advice of doing . Thanks

 

[Driven2lift]

Unfortunate you're already 4 weeks in

You now no doubt see the issue of a first cycle having multiple compounds and extras, too hard to pinpoint what is doing what.

We'd usually say to drop things until you figure it out but how much longer were you planning to run this?

Not all that surprising you're holding water weight, it should subside within a few days of ceasing use.

These sides could be stemming from anything from BP, HR, estrogen...

Lethargy + anxiety could even be blood sugar related, being on cycle really increases substrate use and soaks up energy to repair/grow lean mass. If you are cutting this is more likely.

If you have anything handy to check your BP start there. If it is out if range your cycle should stop

 

[Smont]

The ai in both of those do hardly anything for estrogen control so that's definitely not the cause. Mk causes water retention and the combo of that and hup a is probably the numbness.

 

[Joedoubledose]

It's the mk-677 with huperzine . I noticed a similar effect when instead stacking mk with melatonin . Essentially it's the effect it's having on your dopamine receptors . I preferred mk by itself and I also just cruised on 10mgs

 

[Nac]

Doubt its estrogen. Could be, but doubt it.

 

[Rishy]

Thanks guys for answers , Driven2lift , I'm planning to bulk with this for 10 weeks and continue with mk677 5days/week 2 more months later . Yes I feel some lethargy post meal so that also can be related to blood sugar . I will test tomorrow morning both for BP and blood sugar and post results. That water retention is not enjoyable , the muscles look flat and no notieceable added muscle no big pumps unlike first 2 weeks .
Smont , I was adviced to use mk677 only 5days/week to avoid those kind of side effects but I'm unsure if does so .
Joedoubledose , I tought of that too . I read that Huperzine and stuff can cause anxiety , I was doubting taking huperzine for that matter , but the first 2 weeks were no problem just can't sleep easily if taken pre bed also makes my mind think too much. So I will stop taking it for now to check.
Nac the fact I'm thinking about estrogen is because when I started taking super dhea and ar1macre pro sides start to appear especially pain in some joints , when I checked symptoms of low estrogen I found some things I faced but was similar to low test symptoms also.

What could increase flight or fight mode , elevated heart rate and more adrenaline activation?

 

[Vikingbro]

Is that a typo or did you really mean that you are taking 25mg of MK 677 5 times a day?!? If that's the case, it's no wonder you're feeling like this. Or did I read it wrong?

 

[Rishy]

lol my bad was a typo , 5days per week.

 

[Vikingbro]

Ok cool. I was thinking you were mega dosing for a minute then

 

[Smont]

The super dhea should take care of the lathargy once it kicks in, once you finally finish the mk the water should drop revealing your new gains, not getting a pump is cus your bloated of bf% is high. I'd drop the hup a and ride everything out another week or so and re evaluate how you look n feel. If nothing changes then try swapping out something else. That's the problem with trying out so many things at once, when a problem pops up you gotta play a guessing game

 

[vujade]

I got very bad lethargy on LGD. Cant imagine it with 30mg of Ostarine too..

what made you jump on 2 sarms at the same time, especially when you've used neither of them..?

 

[Joedoubledose]

And when both sarms are usually used for two different goals (LGD for mass , ostarine for muscle retention and fat loss)

 

[Rishy]

Checked my BP and blood sugar today . everything is normal . BP 125 sys and 70 dia , heartbeat 65 and blood sugar 76mg/dl .Seems good considering I'm bulking and sometimes consume more calories and sugar than expected.

I was advised to use both compounds to get more benefits : more muscle mass less fat gain more joint healing and well being feeling from ostarine.
Smont , That's what I'm going to do , stop the hup A for a week to test . Hopefully the super dhea will get rid of the lethargy.

 

[supadupastar]

Its prolly the mk-677, when i was on 25mg it made me sleepy as hell and very hungry within 30min of taking it. I doubt its any of the sarms, dermacrine with 1 pump wont have much of an effect and ar1ma wont make you lethargic at all. But could also be overtraining or low carbs.

 

[elo76]

I'm thinking you don't have enough of a base. The 1 pump of DHEA isn't doing crap with lgd, osta and 1 andro. You need to kick it up a notch IMO and get on 1000 EPI andro a day and either up the DHEA or swap it out with 4 Andro.

Also, you talk about anxiety. I read where andros can aggrivate it and if you have a preexisting condition to not even take them.

 

[niklasericson]

Anxiety and lethargy.
Your Test levels is running low.
LGD is highly suppressive and Osta is suppressive as low as 5mg.
Don't forget to add Dermacrine or 4ad next time.

 

[Smont]

Anxiety and lethargy.
Your Test levels is running low.
LGD is highly suppressive and Osta is suppressive as low as 5mg.
Don't forget to add Dermacrine or 4ad next time.

There both suppressive but neither are highly suppressive, both cause relatively mild suppression in most ppl.

 

[Rishy]

I stopped super DHEA for 2 days to see if the lethargy would be more prounounced . Nothing changed , when I took it again . I had some weird mixed emotions feelings afterwards , didn't understand anything . Was watching football suddenly I felt hot and like if I'm going to cry with a heavy sensation of weird anxious idea on my mind without any logical reason . This is the weirdest thing ever to happen to me.
So my first suspect is the test base I got wich is super dhea for the mental side effects.

 

[Smont]

Sounds Like u got some emotional problem going on. Your short run of super dhea would hg Ave neither kick in or leave by now. What else u got going on in ur life might be the culprit

 

[Rishy]

I'm not sure , Things are going the same as before some bad times and good times. Maybe that anxiety that makes my brain overactive brought back by something may be the issue , But in the time Things started to go weird , I wasn't thinking about anything just watching and chilling.

 

[Smont]

I really don't think the Andro is doing it, I'm not a Dr. So obviously I can't tell u what's wrong but I'd make a bet your just having anxiety

 

[MrTyler]

I don't have anything constructive to add, as I am in the process of learning as much as I can before I begin.
I am also 22 years of age and am very interested in seeing how this cycle plays out for you. I've been planning to begin some type of PH cycle in the future, so any and all information is useful. I hope to see the posts flow, and give you my best wishes until this issue is solved.

 

[Rishy]

MrTyler yes you better gather as much informations as possible so you can be prepared to anything that can happen.
Smont , I have read mixed experienced about DHEA , some say that actually raises the mood and does many psychological benefits , others claim that it increases anxiety and irritability . So I think it's individual based , but I'm still not sure if it's the one who causes that to me.


I'm thinking about ending the cycle maybe the test will drop more and there will more side effects than lethargy and anxiety. I still got 5 more weeks to go of the cycle(10weeks) . Gains wise , I didn't notice anything special , actually I've been told that I still haven't reached my level I was before stopping for 3 months ( That was before I start the cycle by 4 weeks) . What you guys think , I continue even I'm not seeing little gains just water and some fat ? The scale is up by 13lbs but can't say if I gained more than 2 of muscle.

 

[hazard12]

My best bet here is that your estrogen is crashed. Its also no wonder it started at week 4. This is about how long it takes for your stack to crush your testosterone. No testosterone=no estrogen. You added a tiny amount of DHEA AAAAND a aromatase inhibitor....What you described when you stopped taking dhea and added it back up sounds a lot like estrogen fluctuations (think womens period or menopause). My best advice would be to up your estrogen sources (you can keep taking dhea but you are going to need a much larger dose or you can add 4-andro or trest). Stop playing with your estrogen, its really bad for your emotions and can hinder gains significantly.

If you wanna test my hypothesis, triple your dhea dosage and keep it stable for a week. Assess after that. If you joints are hurting, you are still low on estro. Personally, I like to keep my estro as high as possible before I reach gyno level, for that you need estrogen sources or aromatizeable compounds, of which you have none except for a the weak DHEA.

Edit: Also look into trying invictus or 11-kt for cortisol control. I wouldnt discard elevated cortisol from all the hormone fluctuations youve been having (could explain why you are anxious and keep gaining fat and water despite your crushed estrogen levels). It would also be a nice addition to your PCT

 

[Rishy]

Makes sense totally , crashed estrogen is the idea i came up first when I noticed the sides . At this point , the gains from the cycle are mediocre same goes for recovery so I believe the gains are already hindred . I'm going to try your recomendation from tommorow for the next week to see if there any changement. If nothing changed mood,lethargy and gains wise. I'm going to stop all this and start my pct of clomid 50/25/25 with alphamax XT 4 caps daily and hopefully I will get 11-kt as you suggested if not does alphamax xt can control cortisol by itself?

 

[hazard12]

Makes sense totally , crashed estrogen is the idea i came up first when I noticed the sides . At this point , the gains from the cycle are mediocre same goes for recovery so I believe the gains are already hindred . I'm going to try your recomendation from tommorow for the next week to see if there any changement. If nothing changed mood,lethargy and gains wise. I'm going to stop all this and start my pct of clomid 50/25/25 with alphamax XT 4 caps daily and hopefully I will get 11-kt as you suggested if not does alphamax xt can control cortisol by itself?

Do not use 11-kt for PCT, its anabolic and supressive. If you wanna use a strong cortisol control off cycle or PCT, go for b-AET (invictus). 11-kt is only suited for on cycle use. I think you should see a lot of improvement once you add more estrogen into your cycle, its going to improve your subjective feeling and raise your IGF-1 (VERY IMPORTANT FOR HYPERTROPHY). Id give it 2 weeks before making the call and if you havent yet "felt" it by the end of week 1, bump your DHEA dose a little more. I am not too familiar with dhea as I usually use test as a base but if I were you, id look into the upper dosage range and shoot for that. If you over do it, you can always dial back a bit once you dont feel like **** and have actually started growing (youll know if you over do it by checking your nipples, if they are puffy/itchy/painful your estro is too high and you need to dial back a bit). Once you have found your sweet spot, WRITE THAT **** DOWN for future cycles. Id always have a test base or 4-andro as a base but it doesnt hurt to know whats your DHEA base sweet spot once you are fully suppressed in case you ever find yourself in a similar situation.

 

[Rishy]

Alright ,I'm going to follow exactly what you said . The upper dosage DHEA limit is 2.5 pumps as written on the label but I will go for 3 , Since I'm going to raise also the AI in the super DHEA , should I stop using ar1macare pro (I use only 4caps) or use it for the other properties such as cortisol ?
I actually just realised that I forget to take the sarms dose today(I take in the AM) not sure if this will have any negative impact if one dose is missed.

 

[hazard12]

Dont take arimacare pro until you have found your estrogen sweet spot. If find it and you can still dose DHEA a bit higher, then yeah, you could reintroduce it. I think for now your main concern is bringing the estro back and then reassessing. The missed dose wont kill ya, just take it now. Its not the end of the world if you dont dose things PERFECTLY as long as you are dosing them regularly. A couple hours, even half a day wont do much as long as everything else stays on schedule.

 

[Rishy]

alright I'm going to try that for the next week and post the effects. THanks very much for the time and informations !

 

[Rishy]

hazard12 man you save my life. Big difference mentally and physically. I feel I just started to build muscle unlike before , good pumps , fuller look , motivated to push heavier weights , Mentally I feel better and there isn't that lethargy to the point of doing nothing , I still feel the need of sleep but after waking up I feel refreshed so it's an anabolic lethargy :tongue2:. Even I was sick last week didn't lose lean weight neither feeling too drowned and recovered quicker than expected. Now I'm on 9 days of doing 3 pumps of super DHEA feeling awesome like if there is no suppression.
One Issue I'm not sure how to fix it , I still got 3 weeks to on cycle , But I can't get another bottle of super DHEA in time so I suppose I have maybe about 1.5 of superDHEA left . SHould I continue the cycle with out it or stop when it's finished?

Thanks agains man for helping me out!

 

[hazard12]

hazard12 man you save my life. Big difference mentally and physically. I feel I just started to build muscle unlike before , good pumps , fuller look , motivated to push heavier weights , Mentally I feel better and there isn't that lethargy to the point of doing nothing , I still feel the need of sleep but after waking up I feel refreshed so it's an anabolic lethargy :tongue2:. Even I was sick last week didn't lose lean weight neither feeling too drowned and recovered quicker than expected. Now I'm on 9 days of doing 3 pumps of super DHEA feeling awesome like if there is no suppression.
One Issue I'm not sure how to fix it , I still got 3 weeks to on cycle , But I can't get another bottle of super DHEA in time so I suppose I have maybe about 1.5 of superDHEA left . SHould I continue the cycle with out it or stop when it's finished?

Thanks agains man for helping me out!

You are welcome bro! Im glad I could help. You could just get another bottle. Nutri-verse has them for under 35 with a membership and im sure you can find codes anywhere. They will definitely have you a bottle or 2 before you run out of 1.5 bottles. You could even try 4 pumps and see if it improves, it could be worth the extra money if you actually get to make the most of it.

 

[user567]

go get a $65 blood test to pinpoint the issue