Anyone here have optimal (>5-700 ng/dl) test levels after multiple steroid cycles?

Justlooking5

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Is there anyone here who has done multiple steroid cycles (i.e., test/deca/dbol/tren etc., not SARMs/prohormones), yet who can show or reference bloodwork indicating that you maintain optimal (5-700+ ng/dl) testosterone levels naturally off all treatment (i.e., >6 months after clomid or any test boosters).

Anyway, the reason I ask is that when I was using gear in the early 2000s, the general idea was that most people recovered normal function with appropriate PCT and time off.

However, I have been off all gear since 2005 (for 12 years now) and my test levels have been between 369 (just measured) and 390 for years unless I was using clomid.

I also recently read a study that said of 15 former AAS users ,13 of the 15 had natural test levels in the lower 20% range...

Anyway, my sense is that the biggest long term side effect of short term steroid use (even with proper PCT), is permanent mild/moderate hypogonadism (meaning, you are producing substantially less test than you likely would be had you not used gear, and less than is healthy or optimal for you, which for most men, < 400 or so likely is IMO).

I'm curious about any counter examples, guys who have maintained optimal levels despite multiple cycles... they seem to be in the minority instead of the majority as we once believed.
 
TruthWalker

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The way I see it...once you're on, you may as well not bother coming off.
 
rascal14

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I've run a few cycles, my last one being 15 weeks of test with tbol and Tren ace added in. My test levels were 516 almost a year after PCT. I don't really consider 516 optimal though.
 
brofessorx

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Wondering why you discredit pro hormones.

My test levels are normal for a guy my age. I've been running cycles since 2008.
The real test will come in a couple months as I've been crusing on ment phenyl/ace and superdrol since November.
 

mike33511

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You were using gear in the early 2000's, so you're probably around 40 by now. Yes, using steroids can affect your test levels in the long term, but you know what else does? Getting older.

As for me, I was on TRT before I ever started, so it was an fairly easy transition to make.
 
Justlooking5

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The way I see it...once you're on, you may as well not bother coming off.
Maybe so, but that's not the commitment most are looking to make when they run a few cycles... the general belief (perhaps misguided) is that most fully recover with proper PCT. I'm starting to think this is not true.

I've run a few cycles, my last one being 15 weeks of test with tbol and Tren ace added in. My test levels were 516 almost a year after PCT. I don't really consider 516 optimal though.

516 is a bit below what I'd call optimal also (more like 6-800+), but still pretty decent given you were on for 15 weeks and using something as suppressive as tren. Lucky really in a way. I ran deca but never tren.

Curious, what are you doing to maintain your test at 500+? Diet/vitamins/supps? Any insight would be appreciated.
 
Justlooking5

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You were using gear in the early 2000's, so you're probably around 40 by now. Yes, using steroids can affect your test levels in the long term, but you know what else does? Getting older.

As for me, I was on TRT before I ever started, so it was an fairly easy transition to make.
I'm 34. I first used gear in 2001 at age 19, (sust/deca/dbol) and did 4 primary cycles total, with the last being test e (UG lab), t-bol, d-bol, in 2005, with a few lighter cycles of anavar in between the first and last cycle.

In 2010 at age 28 my test levels were 390, urologist gave me clomid which boosted them to 1080, then after d/c clomid they fell back to 390, and a few weeks ago tested again at 369, despite doing many of the modern forum mythology stuff to "optimize" test levels (e.g., high vitamin D, tocotrienols, vitamin K, probiotics, brazil nuts, etc.).
 
rascal14

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Maybe so, but that's not the commitment most are looking to make when they run a few cycles... the general belief (perhaps misguided) is that most fully recover with proper PCT. I'm starting to think this is not true.




516 is a bit below what I'd call optimal also (more like 6-800+), but still pretty decent given you were on for 15 weeks and using something as suppressive as tren. Lucky really in a way. I ran deca but never tren.

Curious, what are you doing to maintain your test at 500+? Diet/vitamins/supps? Any insight would be appreciated.
I don't use anything that may affect my testosterone levels.
 

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So you can run 1 cycle of test Cyp for 12 weeks, do PCT and have sub optimal levels of T afterwards?
 
Justlooking5

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So you can run 1 cycle of test Cyp for 12 weeks, do PCT and have sub optimal levels of T afterwards?
What I think is that no one really knows what effect supraphysiological doses of AAS have on HPTA... but what does seem to be the case is that many men who have used even moderate amounts of AAS (myself included) and do PCT afterwards wind up with permanently suppressed testosterone levels.

It's been 12 years since I last did a cycle, I'm 34 y/o and my levels have hovered at 370-390 since I first got them tested at 28 y/o. However, I first started noticing erectile issues after my first cycle at 19 (pretty textbook sust 500/deca400/dbol/winstrol w/ clomid PCT), so I'm guessing it goes back to that point.

Here is a study I found on this:

A retrospective study of 15 ex-AAS users (the mean time off steroids was 43 months; range 1 to 10 years) found 13 of 15 to be in the lower 20 percentage of the normal reference range for testosterone and 2 of 15 below the normal range.[12] Thus, prolonged, severe ASIH is relatively uncommon amongst former AAS users.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/843523

If I'm reading this study right, it is saying every former AAS user they studied had T levels either in the lower 20% of normal (13), or below normal (2)....

I'm in the lower 10-20% of normal myself so I fit the trend as well.

My sense is that the most significant long term side effect of gear is actually permanent HPTA suppression, which seems to happen in many cases and people should be aware of this before cycling. I know it would have made me think differently and I can say that low testosterone is not fun.
 
Georgiepecker

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What I think is that no one really knows what effect supraphysiological doses of AAS have on HPTA... but what does seem to be the case is that many men who have used even moderate amounts of AAS (myself included) and do PCT afterwards wind up with permanently suppressed testosterone levels.

It's been 12 years since I last did a cycle, I'm 34 y/o and my levels have hovered at 370-390 since I first got them tested at 28 y/o. However, I first started noticing erectile issues after my first cycle at 19 (pretty textbook sust 500/deca400/dbol/winstrol w/ clomid PCT), so I'm guessing it goes back to that point.

Here is a study I found on this

If I'm reading this study right, it is saying every former AAS user they studied had T levels either in the lower 20% of normal (13), or below normal (2)....

I'm in the lower 10-20% of normal myself so I fit the trend as well.

My sense is that the most significant long term side effect of gear is actually permanent HPTA suppression, which seems to happen in many cases and people should be aware of this before cycling. I know it would have made me think differently and I can say that low testosterone is not fun.
There's examples of people in the thread even telling you their levels are normal / optimal though. I think everyone is different and maybe the more modern On Cycle supports / PcT and Information available on the web will help people get back to normal levels and maintain that. I know the whole point of having your levels tested regularly throughout a cycle is to make sure they remain as optimal as possible and won't plummet permanently afterwards right?
 
Justlooking5

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There's examples of people in the thread even telling you their levels are normal / optimal though. I think everyone is different and maybe the more modern On Cycle supports / PcT and Information available on the web will help people get back to normal levels and maintain that. I know the whole point of having your levels tested regularly throughout a cycle is to make sure they remain as optimal as possible and won't plummet permanently afterwards right?
Well only one guy provided numbers showing his levels were in the 500s. Here is a chart showing two studies with avg. level by age.

http://elitemensguide.com/testosterone-levels-by-age/

When I was using gear, I definitely wanted to believe that it could be done without long term sides "Oh, well that's just cause all those people did it in the 2000s and didn't have access to our modern PCT supps" (yeah right)... the study I quoted though shows 100% (15/15) of former AAS users had low test, and that's been my experience as well.

And I'm not sure who gets their test levels tested during a cycle, but doing that and all the PCT supp stuff IMO isn't likely to fix a damaged hypothalamus/pituitary if that is the issue for AAS induced hypogonadism.

I also btw have done a bunch of stuff (besides the standard after cycle clomid/nolva PCT) since being off gear to try to raise my levels back.

This includes 2 years of intermittent clomid therapy from my urologist in 2010 and 2011. The clomid boosted my levels to over 1,000, but they always fell back to that 390+- point.

Also, I currently am 34 as mentioned. My bodyfat is 11-12% measured by caliper and I'm definitely lean w/ visible abs. I weight train and do cardio. I was doing many "modern" test boosting protocols (myth?) including high vitamin d (mine is at 42) probiotics, brazil nuts, tocotrienols, high saturated fat diet, intermittent fasting.

Guess what my levels were when they were tested a few weeks ago? 369 ng/dl. No improvement from any of it, just a slight 20 pt decrease since last time attributable IMO to age.

At best, I think the evidence presented in this thread so far shows there is a high chance of having a permanently suppressed HTPA axis after AAS use.
 
Georgiepecker

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Well only one guy provided numbers showing his levels were in the 500s. Here is a chart showing two studies with avg. level by age.



When I was using gear, I definitely wanted to believe that it could be done without long term sides "Oh, well that's just cause all those people did it in the 2000s and didn't have access to our modern PCT supps" (yeah right)... the study I quoted though shows 100% (15/15) of former AAS users had low test, and that's been my experience as well.

And I'm not sure who gets their test levels tested during a cycle, but doing that and all the PCT supp stuff isn't going to fix a damaged hypothalamus/pituitary.

At best, I think the evidence presented in this thread so far shows there is a high chance of having a permanently suppressed HTPA axis after AAS use.
I agree it seems more common than not to have long term suppression. I do think it's possible though to get back to a 'perfect' level as long as you're lucky and have excellent PCT
 

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I agree it seems more common than not to have long term suppression. I do think it's possible though to get to an acceptable level as long as you're lucky
So everyone who says that their PCT was "successful" is mistaken?
 
Justlooking5

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So everyone who says that their PCT was "successful" is mistaken?
Aren't they usually measuring it in terms of minimal perceived sides and keeping gains though?

I mean how many people really are doing detailed tracking of their test levels 6-12+ months after being off all gear? I know I wasn't back then.

However, what will be interesting and I will follow up with is that now that I know I personally have ASIH, I am going to see if it is possible to raise my levels to a more optimal range (500+) with OTC products before I resort back to clomid and eventually TRT. I have been doing a lot of reading on this and currently am using the following:

Ashwaghanda KSM-66 600mg/day (I've seen several studies showing KSM-66 seems to reliably boost test levels about 100pts from whatever baseline whether low T or normal T)
Zinc Picolinate 30mg/day (some men with hypogonadism have seen solid increases in testosterone)
3 tablespoons coconut oil/day, 1 tbsp olive oil/day

In May I'll be getting a Total, Free, LH, and estrogen test done already ordered by my PCP, and we'll see if any of this has made any improvement. My thought essentially is that if KSM-66 can also give me a 100 pt boost, and I can get another 100 pts from Zinc, coconut oil, and any additional supps, that would put me at the mid 500s which would be acceptable. (note: I've used longjack but don't always like how I feel on it and feel better on KSM-66).

I'll post the results.
 
Jebrook

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I've ran many oral cycles since the age of 33. I'm currently 38. I only average 2 cycles per year and always do a complete PCT regimen and plenty of off time. I just recently took bloodwork again preparing to go on cycle again. I've been natty for 6+ months. Current test levels are around 785. About 3 years ago (first time I started doing bloods) my pre-cycle bloods were in the upper 800's. FWIW.
 
Justlooking5

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I've ran many oral cycles since the age of 33. I'm currently 38. I only average 2 cycles per year and always do a complete PCT regimen and plenty of off time. I just recently took bloodwork again preparing to go on cycle again. I've been natty for 6+ months. Current test levels are 785. About 3 years ago (first time I started doing bloods) my pre-cycle bloods were in the upper 800's. FWIW.
Just curious, what orals are you referring to? Anavar? Have you ever used injectables (test/deca/tren etc?)

Are you using any testosterone boosting supps and what is your diet/supp routine during these periods of very solidly optimal (~800) T levels?

Natural levels near 900 is actually quite high, like upper 10% range for your age.
 
Jebrook

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Just curious, what orals are you referring to? Anavar? Have you ever used injectables (test/deca/tren etc?)

Are you using any testosterone boosting supps and what is your diet/supp routine during these periods of very solidly optimal (~800) T levels?
I've never cycled longer than 8 weeks. I've used the Andros, many methyls, and 19-Nors like Trestolone and Trenavar. So mostly prohormones and designer steroids. Injectables will be the next step very soon. I've avoided them simply because I think the length of time on cycle plays a big factor in being able to recover back to optimal production. That and spending the proper amount of time off cycle at homeostasis. I generally will do a test booster for about 8 weeks beginning during PCT. Then I run various different things during OFF time like Vit D3 during winter months and things like KSM or LJ100.
 
Justlooking5

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Sounds like you are doing what works well for you, I personally would at least think about whether to use injectables... it sounds like you're mostly using OTC stuff? I'm not as familiar with those products. Who knows if more potent AAS injectables constantly in your bloodstream don't have a different affect compared with the OTC orals that are metabolized faster.

Since you monitor your test levels, have you found something that seems to boost them the most (KSM vs. LJ100 etc?) And have you ever compared off KSM/LJ1 vs. on KSM/LJ?

Thanks.
 
Jebrook

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Sounds like you are doing what works well for you, I personally would at least think about whether to use injectables... it sounds like you're mostly using OTC stuff? I'm not as familiar with those products. Who knows if more potent AAS injectables constantly in your bloodstream don't have a different affect compared with the OTC orals that are metabolized faster.

Since you monitor your test levels, have you found something that seems to boost them the most (KSM vs. LJ100 etc?) And have you ever compared off KSM/LJ1 vs. on KSM/LJ?

Thanks.
In many cases, the ph/ds are just as strong and suppressive as injectables. The methyls are certainly much more toxic, which is why I'm ready to jump on the AAS train to protect my health/organs. I'll see if I can screenshot some bloodwork here in a bit to provide reference. As far as test boosters, I haven't done any specific bloodwork to able to quantify the amount of benefit. I simply try to do pre-cycle, post-cycle, and post-PCT bloods to gauge suppression/damage and recovery.
 
Jebrook

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Post Cycle-6/16:
IMG_0357.JPG

IMG_0354.PNG


Post PCT-07/16
IMG_0360.JPG

IMG_0359.PNG


Current Pre-Cycle-03/17
IMG_0363.JPG

IMG_0362.PNG
 
Last edited:
Justlooking5

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Wow, crazy what orals do to liver values and lipids, but your recovery was excellent.

What were you taking if you don't mind my asking prior to Post PCT-07/16? Clomid? Because to get your levels back to >1,000 a month after they were at only 131 is really impressive.
 
Georgiepecker

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So everyone who says that their PCT was "successful" is mistaken?
No I think you can get to normal levels pretty easily assuming you have proper PCT but to be perfect as if you NEVER touched any AAS would have to pretty lucky is how I should've worded it
 
Jebrook

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Wow, crazy what orals do to liver values and lipids, but your recovery was excellent.

What were you taking if you don't mind my asking prior to Post PCT-07/16? Clomid? Because to get your levels back to >1,000 a month after they were at only 131 is really impressive.
PCT was 6 weeks since I was so shutdown. I did pharma Clomid 50/50/25/25/25/25. I also took Super PCT followed by Testify. And for organ recovery I took a full dose of Arimacare Pro, 500 mg TUDCA, Ubiquinol, SAMe, and Spirulina.
 
Justlooking5

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PCT was 6 weeks since I was so shutdown. I did pharma Clomid 50/50/25/25/25/25. I also took Super PCT followed by Testify. And for organ recovery I took a full dose of Arimacare Pro, 500 mg TUDCA, Ubiquinol, SAMe, and Spirulina.
Nice, seems very thorough and obviously you're maintaining good test levels now. How much of that is due to genetics vs. compounds used vs. PCT is hard to say.

Can I ask how long you were off clomid before the bloodwork showing levels >1,000 (because clomid will get mine up to >1,000 also).

Are you taking any test boosters currently with levels at 792? Your LH looks great as it is usually suppressed long-term after an AAS cycle.
 
Jebrook

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Nice, seems very thorough and obviously you're maintaining good test levels now. How much of that is due to genetics vs. compounds used vs. PCT is hard to say.

Can I ask how long you were off clomid before the bloodwork showing levels >1,000 (because clomid will get mine up to >1,000 also).

Are you taking any test boosters currently with levels at 792? Your LH looks great as it is usually suppressed long-term after an AAS cycle.
The post PCT bloods were taken within a few days of discontinuing Clomid. The 792 was about 6 months later after being totally natty during that time frame.
 
Jebrook

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Well only one guy provided numbers showing his levels were in the 500s. Here is a chart showing two studies with avg. level by age.

http://elitemensguide.com/testosterone-levels-by-age/

When I was using gear, I definitely wanted to believe that it could be done without long term sides "Oh, well that's just cause all those people did it in the 2000s and didn't have access to our modern PCT supps" (yeah right)... the study I quoted though shows 100% (15/15) of former AAS users had low test, and that's been my experience as well.

And I'm not sure who gets their test levels tested during a cycle, but doing that and all the PCT supp stuff IMO isn't likely to fix a damaged hypothalamus/pituitary if that is the issue for AAS induced hypogonadism.

I also btw have done a bunch of stuff (besides the standard after cycle clomid/nolva PCT) since being off gear to try to raise my levels back.

This includes 2 years of intermittent clomid therapy from my urologist in 2010 and 2011. The clomid boosted my levels to over 1,000, but they always fell back to that 390+- point.

Also, I currently am 34 as mentioned. My bodyfat is 11-12% measured by caliper and I'm definitely lean w/ visible abs. I weight train and do cardio. I was doing many "modern" test boosting protocols (myth?) including high vitamin d (mine is at 42) probiotics, brazil nuts, tocotrienols, high saturated fat diet, intermittent fasting.

Guess what my levels were when they were tested a few weeks ago? 369 ng/dl. No improvement from any of it, just a slight 20 pt decrease since last time attributable IMO to age.

At best, I think the evidence presented in this thread so far shows there is a high chance of having a permanently suppressed HTPA axis after AAS use.
I think that the age at which you began AAS use is likely a very big factor. At 19, your HPTA was nowhere near being fully matured. This put you at a high risk of permanent irreparable damage right at the very beginning.
 
brofessorx

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side effects are dose and cycle length dependent. Then it'll come down to genetic predisposition.
 
Justlooking5

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I think that the age at which you began AAS use is likely a very big factor. At 19, your HPTA was nowhere near being fully matured. This put you at a high risk of permanent irreparable damage right at the very beginning.
You might be right and I have thought the same. I first noticed low test sides after my first cycle. That said, I'm not sure there is any data on age vs. HPTA recovery and I have read that older guys tend to actually recover worse than younger guys, but how young is optimal, who knows.
 
Justlooking5

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The post PCT bloods were taken within a few days of discontinuing Clomid. The 792 was about 6 months later after being totally natty during that time frame.
Were you taking any test booster during the 792 test (blend or herbal such as Longjack)? Just curious as your LH is excellent.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Were you taking any test booster during the 792 test (blend or herbal such as Longjack)? Just curious as your LH is excellent.
A highish LH is not necessarily a good thing, much like a high TSH, remember it works through a feedback loop? Although we don't have pre-bloods to compare against, I'd wager over time as homeostasis re-establishes, LH and FSH will fall.
 
Jebrook

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Were you taking any test booster during the 792 test (blend or herbal such as Longjack)? Just curious as your LH is excellent.
I have been taking K1ngsblood for the past 6 weeks along with Vit D3. I did take some Sup3r DHEA for two weeks as well. That's pretty much it. And I generally have a high amount of health fats in my diet.
 
Justlooking5

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A highish LH is not necessarily a good thing, much like a high TSH, remember it works through a feedback loop? Although we don't have pre-bloods to compare against, I'd wager over time as homeostasis re-establishes, LH and FSH will fall.
Yes but often with androgen induced hypogonadism LH is low. So he is presumably still getting a good GnRH signal and his pituitary is responding by producing LH. In other cases after a cycle you will see secondary hypogonadism where the testicles still work but LH is very low.
 
Justlooking5

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I have been taking K1ngsblood for the past 6 weeks along with Vit D3. I did take some Sup3r DHEA for two weeks as well. That's pretty much it. And I generally have a high amount of health fats in my diet.
Nice, so it looks like you've been getting KSM-66, Longjack, Icariin, ZMA, and IC3 and few other things. I wonder what your test would be without either supp? Off any test boosters?
 
rtmilburn

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I think prolactin is way to often neglected in pct/restarts/boosting. There was a study where hypogonadal older men took caber(might have been parmi but I think it was caber) after six months were in the high range of normal for there age. I will try to post it later I don't have time ATM
 

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I have been taking K1ngsblood for the past 6 weeks along with Vit D3. I did take some Sup3r DHEA for two weeks as well. That's pretty much it. And I generally have a high amount of health fats in my diet.
Did you take Sup3r DHEA during PCT? Can you offer some insight as to the reasoning behind this and or benefits of this
 
Jebrook

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Did you take Sup3r DHEA during PCT? Can you offer some insight as to the reasoning behind this and or benefits of this
No, I didn't take it during PCT. I did use it on the cycle though. Then I took it well after PCT during my 6 months off. It was about a month or so ago as I was testing our new carrier. That's why I only ran it 2 weeks because I knew I would be doing bloodwork.
 
ChocolateClen

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So the basic premise is that once one cycles you won't ever be able to really stop? Basically premature trt?
 
rtmilburn

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So the basic premise is that once one cycles you won't ever be able to really stop? Basically premature trt?
I call bullsh!t!!! I've seen plenty of bloodwork proving that wrong not mine and its nondisclosable. I'll ask if I can post one of them here (it's my brother so he will most likely say yes)

I do think we all are looking at pct way to one dimensional
 

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Prolonged hypogonadism in males following withdrawal from anabolic–androgenic steroids: an under-recognized problem
Addiction Volume 110, Issue 5, May 2015 , Pages 823–831

Abstract

Aims

To assess the frequency and severity of hypogonadal symptoms in male long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid (AAS) misusers who have discontinued AAS use.


Design

Cross-sectional, naturalistic.


Setting

Out-patient facility.


Participants

Twenty-four male former long-term AAS users and 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, recruited by advertisement in Massachusetts, USA. Five of the former users were currently receiving treatment with physiological testosterone replacement, leaving 19 untreated users for the numerical comparisons below.
Measurements

The Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, questions regarding history of AAS use, physical examination, serum hormone determinations and the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF).


Findings

Compared with the 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, the 19 untreated former AAS users displayed significantly smaller testicular volumes [estimated difference, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 2.3 (0.1, 4.5) ml; P = 0.042] and lower serum testosterone levels [estimated difference: 95% CI = 131 (25, 227) dl; P = 0.009], with five users showing testosterone levels below 200 ng/dl despite abstinence from AAS for 3–26 months. Untreated former users also displayed significantly lower scores on the IIEF sexual desire subscale [estimated difference: 95% CI = 2.4 (1.3, 3.4) points on a 10-point scale; P < 0.001]. In the overall group of 24 treated plus untreated former users, seven (29%) had experienced major depressive episodes during AAS withdrawal; four of these had not experienced major depressive episodes at any other time. Two men (8%) had failed to regain normal libidinal or erectile function despite adequate replacement testosterone treatment.


Conclusions

Among long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid misusers, anabolic–androgenic steroid-withdrawal hypogonadism appears to be common, frequently prolonged and associated with substantial morbidity.
 
ChocolateClen

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Prolonged hypogonadism in males following withdrawal from anabolic–androgenic steroids: an under-recognized problem
Addiction Volume 110, Issue 5, May 2015 , Pages 823–831

Abstract

Aims

To assess the frequency and severity of hypogonadal symptoms in male long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid (AAS) misusers who have discontinued AAS use.


Design

Cross-sectional, naturalistic.


Setting

Out-patient facility.


Participants

Twenty-four male former long-term AAS users and 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, recruited by advertisement in Massachusetts, USA. Five of the former users were currently receiving treatment with physiological testosterone replacement, leaving 19 untreated users for the numerical comparisons below.
Measurements

The Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, questions regarding history of AAS use, physical examination, serum hormone determinations and the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF).


Findings

Compared with the 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, the 19 untreated former AAS users displayed significantly smaller testicular volumes [estimated difference, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 2.3 (0.1, 4.5) ml; P = 0.042] and lower serum testosterone levels [estimated difference: 95% CI = 131 (25, 227) dl; P = 0.009], with five users showing testosterone levels below 200 ng/dl despite abstinence from AAS for 3–26 months. Untreated former users also displayed significantly lower scores on the IIEF sexual desire subscale [estimated difference: 95% CI = 2.4 (1.3, 3.4) points on a 10-point scale; P < 0.001]. In the overall group of 24 treated plus untreated former users, seven (29%) had experienced major depressive episodes during AAS withdrawal; four of these had not experienced major depressive episodes at any other time. Two men (8%) had failed to regain normal libidinal or erectile function despite adequate replacement testosterone treatment.


Conclusions

Among long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid misusers, anabolic–androgenic steroid-withdrawal hypogonadism appears to be common, frequently prolonged and associated with substantial morbidity.
This about sums it up lol
Guess it proved the point if you don't want to be on try then do use them
 
rtmilburn

rtmilburn

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Prolonged hypogonadism in males following withdrawal from anabolic–androgenic steroids: an under-recognized problem
Addiction Volume 110, Issue 5, May 2015 , Pages 823–831

Abstract

Aims

To assess the frequency and severity of hypogonadal symptoms in male long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid (AAS) misusers who have discontinued AAS use.


Design

Cross-sectional, naturalistic.


Setting

Out-patient facility.


Participants

Twenty-four male former long-term AAS users and 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, recruited by advertisement in Massachusetts, USA. Five of the former users were currently receiving treatment with physiological testosterone replacement, leaving 19 untreated users for the numerical comparisons below.
Measurements

The Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, questions regarding history of AAS use, physical examination, serum hormone determinations and the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF).


Findings

Compared with the 36 non-AAS-using weightlifters, the 19 untreated former AAS users displayed significantly smaller testicular volumes [estimated difference, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 2.3 (0.1, 4.5) ml; P = 0.042] and lower serum testosterone levels [estimated difference: 95% CI = 131 (25, 227) dl; P = 0.009], with five users showing testosterone levels below 200 ng/dl despite abstinence from AAS for 3–26 months. Untreated former users also displayed significantly lower scores on the IIEF sexual desire subscale [estimated difference: 95% CI = 2.4 (1.3, 3.4) points on a 10-point scale; P < 0.001]. In the overall group of 24 treated plus untreated former users, seven (29%) had experienced major depressive episodes during AAS withdrawal; four of these had not experienced major depressive episodes at any other time. Two men (8%) had failed to regain normal libidinal or erectile function despite adequate replacement testosterone treatment.


Conclusions

Among long-term anabolic–androgenic steroid misusers, anabolic–androgenic steroid-withdrawal hypogonadism appears to be common, frequently prolonged and associated with substantial morbidity.
Even the medical field is looking to one dimensional my is my point the study didn't say how they were treated either so it was quite pointless
 

Spurfy

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Even the medical field is looking to one dimensional my is my point the study didn't say how they were treated either so it was quite pointless
I eagerly await the arrival of your opinion, which will surely erase the validity of all published evidence.
 
mmorso

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Subbed... late to the party and rtmilburn is posting all sh1t faced lmao.

I'm curious as to the "substantial morbidity" associated with hypogonadism
 
rtmilburn

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I eagerly await the arrival of your opinion, which will surely erase the validity of all published evidence.
Published evidence that didn't even tell how they treated a patient?!? Not saying I'm right by any means trying to add a different prospective but the study is literally worthless
 

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