Need to make first post and ask serious question but i am being denied?

[jcr1000]

Hello everyone. I am new to the forum so I look forward to getting to know all of you. I will save you the introduction as it was included in the post I want to make. As the title says I am being denied for using either too many URLs (none are included in my post) or key words that are not allowed in posts by new users. I don't understand what could possibly be causing this. The post is in regards to mk677.

 

[mike33511]

What's your serious question?

 

[jcr1000]

It was quite lengthy. The main question was how to mitigate the insomnia side effect of mk-677. I have been dealing with severe insomnia already due to protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal (going on 9 months now) and making gains is extremely difficult. Mk puts me on a level playing field but it seems to exacerbate my already horrible sleep problem. Not sleeping is catabolic in and of itself but if has also given me horrible adrenal fatigue and the cortisol is making it really difficult to make gains and not get fat. Don't know if I need to slowly increase to 25 mg dose of if taking it is just off of the table because it doesn't sit right with me. Really everything else I said was, to me at least, important in at least helping you guys understand my situation.

 

[mike33511]

It was quite lengthy. The main question was how to mitigate the insomnia side effect of mk-677. I have been dealing with severe insomnia already due to protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal (going on 9 months now) and making gains is extremely difficult. Mk puts me on a level playing field but it seems to exacerbate my already horrible sleep problem. Not sleeping is catabolic in and of itself but if has also given me horrible adrenal fatigue and the cortisol is making it really difficult to make gains and not get fat. Don't know if I need to slowly increase to 25 mg dose of if taking it is just off of the table because it doesn't sit right with me. Really everything else I said was, to me at least, important in at least helping you guys understand my situation.

Normally MK has the opposite effect. What dose are you taking now? At what time of the day do you take it?

 

[jcr1000]

Yes, I am aware of that. Enhanced sleep was one of the things I was hoping to achieve. I have seen numerous other people that experience a similar effect, however. I'm not taking it right now, but I want to. When I do, I take 25 mg right before bed so I can sleep through the lethargy.

 

[mike33511]

Yes, I am aware of that. Enhanced sleep was one of the things I was hoping to achieve. I have seen numerous other people that experience a similar effect, however. I'm not taking it right now, but I want to. When I do, I take 25 mg right before bed so I can sleep through the lethargy.

So you still feel lethargic from it, but you can't sleep? Have you tried taking it in the morning?

 

[jcr1000]

I have. When I do I experience pretty severe lethargy which makes doing my job difficult. And yes, I could feel ready to drop and I still wouldn't go to sleep. It is just the nature of benzo I withdrawal and the effects they have on the brain. I don't feel that the mk should be interfering with my sleep though.

 

[rascal14]

I have. When I do I experience pretty severe lethargy which makes doing my job difficult. And yes, I could feel ready to drop and I still wouldn't go to sleep. It is just the nature of benzo I withdrawal and the effects they have on the brain. I don't feel that the mk should be interfering with my sleep though.

9 months later you're still having withdrawal, is that normal?

I've seen quite a few people get sleep issues with MK677 so it's not unusual.

 

[uprightrows]

9 months later you're still having withdrawal, is that normal?

From benzos yes it can be. There is a post acute withdrawal phase/syndrome (PAWS) that can last a really long time, benzodiazepines seriously mess with your neurotransmitters especially your inhibitory system and GABA and can cause profound changes in your neurology and signalling if you are on them for long enough. I have been chemically dependent on alcohol in the past and was advised to use benzodiazepines (lorazepam) when I decided I wanted to curtail my drinking, I chose not to because I did not want to substitute one GABA agonist (alcohol) for another potentially more addictive one. Benzos are safe as long as you limit there use to 10-14 days but long term use can have very serious consequences, and I know a lot of people who have gone down that road.

Hang in there OP, I know a lot of people who have been chemically dependent on benzos, it took some of them 18 months to regain a sense of normalcy and regain normal cognition. The only piece of advice I can give you is try supplementing with agmatine sulfate. It has helped me immensely in prior alcohol withdrawals, just buy the bulk supplement, do not take it with any NO products (arginine, citrulline) as they actually compete for the transport that agamtine uses (I will never understand why pwo and pump products combine them), for the same reason don't take it with dietary protein. Take 1-1.5 grams when you wake up on an empty stomach, it's serum half life is only 10 minutes, but it crosses the blood brain barrier and acts a neurotransmitter with a half life of around 12 hours. It is an NMDA antagonist and will help with the excitability of your now GABA activation deprived nervous system, as well as preventing glutamate from causing excitotoxicity to some degree.

 

[mike33511]

^ Great post.

OP, I would just drop the MK for now. If it's making your withdrawal symptoms worse, it is clearly not worth it.

 

[jcr1000]

I will respond in the morning when I have more energy...assuming I sleep haha. Great post! Many thanks for explaining withdrawal to them for me.

 

[bighulksmash]

I had this issue with xanax . I was on 2mg 3 a day ... way too high of a dose.

 

[uprightrows]

Yeah that's pretty serious, do you have generalized anxiety or was it for ptsd or something like that (if you don't mind me asking) I'm guessing it's not for alcohol withdrawal because that is a high dose.

Xanax has it's own special set of risks because it is so short acting compared to other benzos, and for most people is subjectively euphoric. This generally makes the acute phase of the withdrawal much worse, but if you get through it the long term effects seem to subside in a shorter time frame than people who are on the long acting stuff (diazepam or chlordiazepoxide) for long periods of time. In any case great job if you got yourself out of that situation, stopping at all can be very hard with the short acting stuff like xanax.

 

[mccollums]

What type of sleep stacks have you tried?

Passion Flower should be beneficial to help kickstart GABA production. Also, Valerian Root, California Poppy, and Skull Cap can stack well with that before bed. You have to experiment and find the right combo. Tinctures work best. Dr. Beverly Meyer has a decent tasting passion flower tincture.

I'm guessing you have tried melatonin.. if so, did you try sustained release?

Also, hopefully you have the type of job where you can go to bed and wake up every morning at the same time. Getting proper type of light in the morning and at night is crucial. Put F.lux on your laptop and avoid screens as much as possible before bed. Wear blue blockers at night if you watch TV.... Wake up every morning and watch the sunrise (outside preferably)

 

[jcr1000]

Upright, I actually just purchased a large bag of agmatine from bulk supplements last week. I was intending to use it for pwo but I will follow your recommendation and start taking it in the morning. Fortunately, the numerous other effects I was experiencing due to clonazepam dissipated within a few months. I really can't express how severe the changes I experienced were. Years ago I was highly motivated, intelligent, confident, and quite extroverted. Developing the awkwardness, anxiety, and stupidity was a truly horrifying experience. The changes were gradual so many times I was convinced that I was just changing as a person. But, I always had this nagging feeling that the drugs were to blame. Taking things into my own hands was the greatest thing I have ever done.

Really, the worst part of this whole thing is that I have been unable to pursue my career as a firefighter. I graduated high school in 2014 and planned to obtain EMT certification immediately and begin work /volunteer with the fire department. It would have been nice to at least get my foot in the door from an early age! By now there is a decent chance I would have gone through the fire academy and would have a paid position as they have gone through several hiring processes and my step father works for them. I am 20 years old now, years behind...and incredibly frustrated. All I want right now is to get a decent job, find a woman, and settle down (and lift of course)...but I can't because of these f***** pills. OK...enough of my sob story.

It's difficult to explain but I feel as though I can differentiate between the exacerbation of my withdrawal symptoms the effects of the mk. As I said before the insomnia is the issue I face right now. I have not experienced an increase in anxiety or anything while taking mk. I feel as though, if it were actually exacerbating my symptoms it would be effecting all of them...not just sleep. I have seen in places that it might be necessary to gradually increase the dose to avoid unwanted side effects but I haven't seen a specific mention of a gradual increase reducing the insomnia. Perhaps I should just try it and see how it goes?

Lastly. I ordered DHEA and began taking 25 mg rectally every day to combat high cortisol levels from adrenal fatigue. I was hoping it might also raise my testosterone levels to what is normal for my age. I experienced a HUGE increase in energy, mood, clearness of thought, libido, and my erections were very strong once again. Sleep didn't seem to be greatly effected though I was only on it for 5 days. I started getting acne several days after I began taking it which made me worry that I was taking too much. Dedicated adrenal fatigue help websites suggest an individual take in excess of 100 mg per day to combat adrenal fatigue but to me this seems like a horrible idea. I believe normal production is only 15-25 mg per day...why exceed your bodies natural production by such a large amount. Anyways, what do you guys make of the acne? I don't want to play around with my hormones too much so I will make an appointment with an endocrinologist or maybe a new primary care doctor today...I'm hoping one could help me keep my keep an eye on my dhea levels.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[jesus_sanchez]

I would start at 15mg before bed to see how it affects sleep. Last night I not only slept like I was in acoma but the dreams are amazing!! I do 20mg EOD but Ive been using for 6 months.

 

[uprightrows]

I can kind of understand where you are coming from, being addicted to a GABAergic drug sucks, be it alcohol or benzos. You are still very young, and it's great you are taking proactive steps to improve your situation, stop taking the mk if it is further disrupting your sleep. Insomnia is just something you are going to have to deal with if this is your first real withdrawal, what always helped me in addition to the agmatine was accepting and utilizing the time I had when I couldn't sleep. If your body is not going to let you fall asleep use that time to read or better yourself, if you want to be a firefighter or an EMT read as much as you can about protocols for those jobs so you are well versed in it if you decide to pursue it. Eventually your body will need to sleep and it will happen and you will get back on a regular sleep schedule/rhythm. Of course rigorous physical activity and lifting heavy will help speed up the process a lot. I don't know that much about dhea supplementation, but if you can get a hormone panel and a dr. who can help you with that it's probably a great idea. For me the greatest contributing factors for recovery along with the agmatine was heavy weight training, exhausting my body so it had to sleep and re-establishing an normal sleep cycle, which your body will eventually do if you give enough time.

 

[rascal14]

So the benzos were under a doctors orders? I'm assuming you don't want to take any other medication to help with insomnia? I always suggest Kratom to those who are trying to get off any other substance, but you must be very careful if you have previous addiction issues, and I probably would not recommend you take it.

I currently take 1-2mg Klonopin myself as needed, typically I will get nervous about a big event the next day, and so I will not be able to sleep and I am having bad anxiety issues so I will take one then, or if I am just worn out and stressed and want to relax and get a good nights sleeo. But, I have had the same prescription since before Christmas, so I use it sparingly to avoid dependence.

I recently started taking Agmatine about 1.5-2g a day with one dose before bed, as well as my girlfriend. It may help to make you tired and get a decent sleep. I don't notice a huge difference, but since you are having bigger problems it may help more. Look into KSM-66 as well.

Once again, MK677 definitely disrupted my sleep, so I would stop that.

 

[jcr1000]

I have been on a "sleep" schedule for many months. In bed at 10, up at 6. Every day. My days are extremely busy as is. I work 7:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. I do a full body routine 3 days a week on Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday (theviking1992 bare bones full body program on bodybuilding.com forums...I've modified the program slightly. I dropped barbell bench and replaced it with dumbbell bench. Added rack pulls above the knee on deadlift days, barbell hip thrusts on squat days, as well as hyper extensions 3x per week, ) . On training days I run my ass of from the moment I get to work to 7:00 pm when I finish my workout. I am physically exhausted by the time I get in bed. I will consider moving my bedtime back to 11pm although I feel the extra time just being in bed to relax is beneficial.

I will leave the mk alone for now. I don't think any of you can really understand the frustration I have. I love lifting SO MUCH, but as with the rest of my life right now the sleep is not allowing me to make the progress I want. You guys probably get where I'm coming from. I have made some decent progress since last year, actually. I am 6 ft tall. Last year I weighed 165 lbs and had 10.5% body fat. I weighed myself several days ago and I was at 191 with 15% bf. Not bad I guess. I look good with clothes on but definitely nothing to admire. My progress just isn't comparable to some of the other people I have watched basically transform in the same time frame.

Rascal- Medication is completely off the table. It would interfere with recovery, make my symptoms MUCH worse for at least a week...and it just wouldn't work. There is nothing that will expedite the recovery process. All I can do is take the best care of myself that I can through exercise, sleep, a healthy diet, and supplementation...lots of supplementation.

 

[jcr1000]

Many natural substances exert gaba like effects on the brain and for that reason I cannot use them. Valerian is one. As I mentioned I have adrenal fatigue. The best supplement to take for adrenal fatigue is Ashwaganda...same story. I'm very limited on what I can use.

Supplements I take:
Vitamin d3 6000 iu
Vitamin c 1000mg
Calcium citrate 2x daily (forgot dose)
P5p
Vitamin b12
Concentrated fish oil (pharmax finest fish oil)
Multivitamin (orange triad by controlled labs)
DIM 400 mg.
Zinc chelate 30 mg
Magnesium citrate/ chelate 600 mg
L-tryptophan 1.5g before bed
5 mg melatonin before bed.
Tried doterra essential oils..didn't help
Maca root powder 5g 2x / day
Creatine monohydrate 5g
Glutamine 5g morning/ 5 g post workout
Now taking agmatine sulfate 1.5 g morning
Going to add MCT oil to PWO.
Also drink herbal tea before bed.

I think that is everything...

Oh and I don't really spend any time on my computer but I have a blue light filter on my phone.

 

[uprightrows]

The sleep disruptions will abate with time. I am not totally aware of what you are going through but I know the feeling of frustration of less than optimal sleep because of GABA meditated dependency. Those are significant gains ~30lbs in a year is a lot but you are a 20 yr old, just keep training and abstaining lol. Don't worry about the minutia of your program and don't compare yourself to other people, just do whatever you can to improve your physique and get your neurotransmitters right.

 

[jcr1000]

I will. Thank you for the help