First Cycle - MSTEN + ???,

rkmich

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Hello all...had another post going "47 yr old male, first PH cycle help"...and huge thanks to all for your inputs, but maybe changing direction and thought it best to start new thread

First, my stats...
Age 47
BW 170 lb
BF ~12%

Been in the strength and conditioning game a very long time, powerlifting most of the time, but past 10 years or it has been crossfit-like (strength training plus metcons). Probably in the best overall shape of my life (and coming from decades of wrestling and judo, that is saying something). Very healthy, eat very clean (paleo, carb cycling), all biomarkers very good (just had blood work done).

But for sure not a spring chicken anymore and considering PH cycle for a little extra "boost"...and by boost, a little lean mass and recomp, but mostly looking for strength boost with not too much mass gain.

After all the feedback from y'all looked like 1a + 4a (or transdermal super DHEA) was going to be best choice for a first cycle, but...

I had read good things about MSTEN (especially related to strength gains), found some, and couldn't resist, so acquired couple bottles (hard to get, wanted to jump on it while I had the chance).

I am a little nervous about the liver and blood pressure negative side effects of MSTEN as it is methylated, but it seems if you take appropriate support during cycle, keep dosage lower, and keep cycle to 4 weeks, then should not be issue.

So first, what are everyone's thoughts on running MSTEN for a first cycle? Again I am thinking to run for only 4 weeks, dosage 10-20mg (but 20mg maximum).

Second, if I were to run MSTEN plus something, what would be best? I am thinking at least a test base would be a good idea, so either 4a or Olympus transdermal super DHEA. What about 1a or Epia? Taking it a step further, how about transdermal Trest as test base? Though the high estrogen conversion of Trest makes me nervous. Never had man boobs, don't want em now! Already I had ruled out Trest, but thought I would throw it back in to get everyone's thoughts.

Maybe to ask in a simpler way...If you had MSTEN, 1a, 4a (or Super DHEA or Trest), and/or Epia, what would be a safe yet very effective 8 week cycle combining some or all of these compounds? I definitley think at least a test base (4a or other) will be a must to run along with MSTEN to counteract the loss of libido and potential lethargy that seems to be fairly common.

My first thought would be to do a "kick-start" so to speak of the first 4 weeks with MSTEN plus other 2-step conversion PH, then second 4 weeks dropping MSTEN and continuing run with the other PHs.

Of course all of this assumes appropriate on-cycle and post-cycle support, but I will get to that after I solidify the PH portion (yes, I need your help with that also ;-)).

As to the PCT, I would at least say that SERM going to be a must....At my age, I am sure shutdown going to be hard, and also difficult to bring the "boys" back to normal levels. As to finding a SERM (and also Exemestane or Arimidex), well, that is another matter I am still working on and need to figure out :-(

As a first line of thinking for the PH part of this cycle, maybe something like:

Weeks 1-4
MSTEN 20/20/20/20 (or maybe 10/20/20/20, lower dosage at first just to see how my body reacts, then kick it up to 20 id all is well)
4andro 330/330/330/330 or trasmdermal DHEA or Trest ???
Epiandro 500/500/500/500

*** My thinking is with MSTEN, no need for 1andro. But, use 4andro and Epiandro as test base as I am sure MSTEN will shut me down hard

Weeks 5-8
4andro 440/440/440/440 or trasmdermal DHEA or Trest ???
1andro 500/500/500/500
Epiandro 500/500/500/500

*** Kick-up 4andro to help with high expected shutdown at end of MSTEN cycle
*** Add 1andro in to act as a "mild" MSTEN and keep the gains going

Weeks 9-12
SERM (clomid/nolva) + OTC PCT (Kingsblood, testify, CEL Mtest, etc.)

Other on-cycle support will be:
AI on hand just in case (especially if I go with Trest)
liver (milk thistle, NAC, especially TUDCA needed with MSTEN I guess, etc.)
blood pressure
taurine (5g/day for possible back pumps)
joint supp
multi-vit, creatine, carnitine, etc (the usual "staples")
any others I should consider ???

*** Or, should I just forget the MSTEN for now and just stick with my initial 1A + 4A + EpiA cycle? Especially if I am unable to acquire a SERM and AI, there is no way I am going to run MSTEN!

Would greatly appreciate everyone's advice. Would like to start some sort of cycle within next 2 weeks or so.

Thanks!
 
AnabolicGuru

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Clomid dosing is typically 50/50/25/25, nolva typically 20/20/10/10 or 40/40/20/20. Get a good all in one cycle support like cel cycle assist or ol ar1macare pro and run an extra 500-1000mg tudca with it. Taurine will definitely help; msten gave me massive shin pumps lol. Msten is pretty strong for a first cycle in terms of toxicity, but the aside from that, the sides are pretty manageable. I've personally never taken 4 andro or epiandro, but both wouldnt hurt to run alongside as an oral test base. Testosterone is also a good option at your age, and it wont be near as harsh in terms of toxicity
 
tsmog

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IMO.. You are right, I wouldn't consider running MSTEN unless you have an AI due to the E sides. Just run your DHEA cycle and pct. With the legal alternative PH's you are taking you'll end up packing on mostly water weight anyway.. Just maintain that clean diet and you'll see gains. Good luck sir
 
AnabolicGuru

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IMO.. You are right, I wouldn't consider running MSTEN unless you have an AI due to the E sides. Just run your DHEA cycle and pct. With the legal alternative PH's you are taking you'll end up packing on mostly water weight anyway.. Just maintain that clean diet and you'll see gains. Good luck sir
Msten doesn't aromatize
 
tsmog

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Keep in mind though, any aas/ph/ds has a chance of causing estro sides regardless of it aromatizing
Is it because of the shutdown? I know Anadrol is non-aromatizable but also has pretty severe E side effects..
 
AnabolicGuru

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Is it because of the shutdown? I know Anadrol is non-aromatizable but also has pretty severe E side effects..
I heard it's from elevated shbg or something
 
mgkoret

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Is it because of the shutdown? I know Anadrol is non-aromatizable but also has pretty severe E side effects..
This is because the body is constantly trying to stay in homeostasis hormonally.
If test levels are higher than usual, the body tries to Ballance with higher Estrogen and Progesterone etc.
Usually not an issue, but everyone is different with varying endocrine systems.
The test won't aromatize, but the body will product it's own hormones to try and keep things where it thinks they need to be

For this reason, E control or AI is advised to keep on hand in case the body gets out of Ballance.
 
irishiron300

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Hello all...had another post going "47 yr old male, first PH cycle help"...and huge thanks to all for your inputs, but maybe changing direction and thought it best to start new thread

First, my stats...
Age 47
BW 170 lb
BF ~12%

Been in the strength and conditioning game a very long time, powerlifting most of the time, but past 10 years or it has been crossfit-like (strength training plus metcons). Probably in the best overall shape of my life (and coming from decades of wrestling and judo, that is saying something). Very healthy, eat very clean (paleo, carb cycling), all biomarkers very good (just had blood work done).

But for sure not a spring chicken anymore and considering PH cycle for a little extra "boost"...and by boost, a little lean mass and recomp, but mostly looking for strength boost with not too much mass gain.

After all the feedback from y'all looked like 1a + 4a (or transdermal super DHEA) was going to be best choice for a first cycle, but...

I had read good things about MSTEN (especially related to strength gains), found some, and couldn't resist, so acquired couple bottles (hard to get, wanted to jump on it while I had the chance).

I am a little nervous about the liver and blood pressure negative side effects of MSTEN as it is methylated, but it seems if you take appropriate support during cycle, keep dosage lower, and keep cycle to 4 weeks, then should not be issue.

So first, what are everyone's thoughts on running MSTEN for a first cycle? Again I am thinking to run for only 4 weeks, dosage 10-20mg (but 20mg maximum).

Second, if I were to run MSTEN plus something, what would be best? I am thinking at least a test base would be a good idea, so either 4a or Olympus transdermal super DHEA. What about 1a or Epia? Taking it a step further, how about transdermal Trest as test base? Though the high estrogen conversion of Trest makes me nervous. Never had man boobs, don't want em now! Already I had ruled out Trest, but thought I would throw it back in to get everyone's thoughts.

Maybe to ask in a simpler way...If you had MSTEN, 1a, 4a (or Super DHEA or Trest), and/or Epia, what would be a safe yet very effective 8 week cycle combining some or all of these compounds? I definitley think at least a test base (4a or other) will be a must to run along with MSTEN to counteract the loss of libido and potential lethargy that seems to be fairly common.

My first thought would be to do a "kick-start" so to speak of the first 4 weeks with MSTEN plus other 2-step conversion PH, then second 4 weeks dropping MSTEN and continuing run with the other PHs.

Of course all of this assumes appropriate on-cycle and post-cycle support, but I will get to that after I solidify the PH portion (yes, I need your help with that also ;-)).

As to the PCT, I would at least say that SERM going to be a must....At my age, I am sure shutdown going to be hard, and also difficult to bring the "boys" back to normal levels. As to finding a SERM (and also Exemestane or Arimidex), well, that is another matter I am still working on and need to figure out :-(

As a first line of thinking for the PH part of this cycle, maybe something like:

Weeks 1-4
MSTEN 20/20/20/20 (or maybe 10/20/20/20, lower dosage at first just to see how my body reacts, then kick it up to 20 id all is well)
4andro 330/330/330/330 or trasmdermal DHEA or Trest ???
Epiandro 500/500/500/500

*** My thinking is with MSTEN, no need for 1andro. But, use 4andro and Epiandro as test base as I am sure MSTEN will shut me down hard

Weeks 5-8
4andro 440/440/440/440 or trasmdermal DHEA or Trest ???
1andro 500/500/500/500
Epiandro 500/500/500/500

*** Kick-up 4andro to help with high expected shutdown at end of MSTEN cycle
*** Add 1andro in to act as a "mild" MSTEN and keep the gains going

Weeks 9-12
SERM (clomid/nolva) + OTC PCT (Kingsblood, testify, CEL Mtest, etc.)

Other on-cycle support will be:
AI on hand just in case (especially if I go with Trest)
liver (milk thistle, NAC, especially TUDCA needed with MSTEN I guess, etc.)
blood pressure
taurine (5g/day for possible back pumps)
joint supp
multi-vit, creatine, carnitine, etc (the usual "staples")
any others I should consider ???

*** Or, should I just forget the MSTEN for now and just stick with my initial 1A + 4A + EpiA cycle? Especially if I am unable to acquire a SERM and AI, there is no way I am going to run MSTEN!

Would greatly appreciate everyone's advice. Would like to start some sort of cycle within next 2 weeks or so.

Thanks!
I would hang on to that bottle of MSTEN and Trest for another day. You can always come back to it.

I would run the andros. They are great for a first cycle...moderate strength and size gains. Most importantly, very maintainable post cycle.

A SERM is still advisable as you'll want to make the run 6-8 wks. The andros don't start kicking until wk 3 for many users. You'll want a SERM. AI...always good to have on hand, but I never needed with andros.

330 is the sweet spot for many for 1/4. I prefer Epi at the 750-1000 mark. Given the goals you stated "lean mass and strength" the andros will def get you there. Let us know what you go with.
 

Choppedjunior

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Ran MSTEN, would deff get an AI and even run it E3D or EOD.

Secondly I would drop the EPI stuff and just get Dermatrest. I ran MSTEN with EpiANDRO and i could hardly make it 4 weeks from the lethargy. It was unreal. I felt like i wasn't sleeping, had to nap everyday, always yawning, no mood to do anything etc. Then I ran with DermaTrest and felt soooo much better.

But maybe for a first cycle just do the EPI etc. MSTEN is a strong compound and if your life isn't in check then you won't make any gains or keep them. I feel like MSTEN you can pack on a lot, but its very hard to keep the gains unless everything is perfect. I ran EPI and had better gains to be honest. But I now stray away from the PH route and do SARMS i like them much more so far.
 
justhere4comm

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For Liver Support we put 500mg of TUDCA in one cap; 100mg of NAC, and 100mg of Milk Thistle as well.
You will not find an equally properly dosed product out there in the right proportions, unless you like taking a lot of caps.

liver support cycle am ad.png
 
ChocolateClen

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Shouldn't it be from shbg dropping and freeing up more E considering it's a DHT derivative?
I thought it was more from the conversion of test to estrogen because test is so high the body wants to maintain a somewhat stable environment so it takes cholesterol derivatives and turns them in to estrogen/prolactin to try and balance stuff out.
 
AdelV

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Let us know what you decide, I'm actually trying to build a similar cycle for a friend.

I was looking at Sup3r DH3A, Tr3st, LGD and some of the Andros you mentioned. Off course, not all of them just the best way to stack it. I'll probably add MK-677 in there for him too!
 

phollet

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Hey guys, anyone had run Sup3r DH3A or any DHEA with msten? If so, what was the dosage of the DHEA and the results?
 

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