Test Cypionate For TRT

[InItForGainz]

How much Testosterone Cypionate is usually used or recommended for TRT?

Little background info...
My Endocrinologist has yet again reduced my TRT dosage.
I started off on injections with my original Endo and felt great. Then he left the clinic and my new Endo took over, who toned it down to 50mg of Testogel...Now she wants to reduce it even more to just 20mg Testogel, which in my view is f*cking pointless.
So I'm going to tell her to f*ck off and I'm going to self administer my own TRT with Test C.

Any extra info or recommendations about self administering TRT and injecting Test C would be greatly appreciated as I've never self injected before.

Cheers

 

[Nac]

Youll obviously need to do bloods to dial your dose in.

The typical non-bro range is 100-200mg per week, split two shots.

Your blood TT level will vary depending on when you draw in relation to your last pin. Peak level is typically 24-48hrs post pin for cyp.

 

[Randallk21]

If you're going to self administer then I would look into bill Roberts TRT protocol

 

[InItForGainz]

Youll obviously need to do bloods to dial your dose in.

The typical non-bro range is 100-200mg per week, split two shots.

Your blood TT level will vary depending on when you draw in relation to your last pin. Peak level is typically 24-48hrs post pin for cyp.

Is that peak level the same with sub-q injections?

 

[ryox82]

Were you seeing a regular endo? When I was just diagnosed I tried getting in with regular offices and they either didn't deal with TRT or had no openings. We have ton's of male health clinics and anti aging clinics here and I made an appointment there. They're pretty much open to anything. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[Nac]

Is that peak level the same with sub-q injections?

Not sure man. I only have PK data on IM inj.

 

[Nac]

This has got me curious. Study:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4721027/

This was with test enanth. At a quick glance, the single shot peak level PK here is pretty much similiar to that of IM. Id assume the same would be true for cyp IM vs subq.

Interestingly, the e2 levels for the 100mg subq group werent too much lower than the 200mg IM group.

EDIT: hmmm. This is real interdasting. If we compare IM to subq TT levels:

1) It takes up to 5 weeks for subq peak plasma levels to be reached. This TT level is what was achieved with a single IM shot.

2) Subq levels are faaaar more stable. There appears to be less TT drop post-pins.

3) A single shot of subq has a lower peak value than IM.

If Ive interpreted the graphs right, Im sold lol

 

[InItForGainz]

This has got me curious. Study:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4721027/

This was with test enanth. At a quick glance, the peak level PK here is pretty much similiar to that of IM. Id assume the same would be true for cyp IM vs subq.

Interestingly, the e2 levels for the 100mg subq group werent too much lower than the 200mg IM group.

EDIT: hmmm. This is real interdasting. If we compare IM to subq TT levels:

1) It takes up to 5 weeks for peak plasma levels to be reached. This TT level is what was achieved with a single IM shot.

2) Subq levels are faaaar more stable. There appears to be less TT drop post-pins.

If Ive interpreted the graphs right, Im sold lol

That's one of the reasons why I'm going with sub-q injections,

Extended Release Time (No Spikes)
Slightly Less E Conversion
Less Painful
Less Scar Tissue Buildup

 

[Nac]

That's one of the reasons why I'm going with sub-q injections,

Extended Release Time (No Spikes)
Slightly Less E Conversion
Less Painful
Less Scar Tissue Buildup

My main reservation would be blast doses. How much oil can safely be pinned subq?

 

[InItForGainz]

My main reservation would be blast doses. How much oil can safely be pinned subq?

Is blasting neccessary for TRT? At 1ml for the 100mg of Cypionate I can't see it causing and problems.

 

[Nac]

Is blasting neccessary for TRT? At 1ml for the 100mg of Cypionate I can't see it causing and problems.

Blasting isnt necessary for trt, but dunno bout you but I still wanna do periods of other compounds with possibly higher test/different esters.

 

[InItForGainz]

Blasting isnt necessary for trt, but dunno bout you but I still wanna do periods of other compounds with possibly higher test/different esters.

Gunna try and level this out before I start looking into adding any extras.
You got any advice in regards to needle sizes for Cypionate?

 

[mike33511]

That's one of the reasons why I'm going with sub-q injections,

Extended Release Time (No Spikes)
Slightly Less E Conversion
Less Painful
Less Scar Tissue Buildup

According to Dr. John Crisler, it's actually more painful. Regular pinning isn't painful at all, unless you get PIP.

 

[Nac]

According to Dr. John Crisler, it's actually more painful. Regular pinning isn't painful at all, unless you get PIP.

Thats actually what I thought too. Sure I read the muscle has little in the way of pain receptors compared to the skin/subq regions.

 

[Nac]

Gunna try and level this out before I start looking into adding any extras.
You got any advice in regards to needle sizes for Cypionate?

Study used 5/8" 27gauge.

 

[InItForGainz]

I would have thought that intra-muscular would hurt more?
I inject my insulin sub-q and I don't get any issues or major pain with that.
Surely it doesn't really matter how it gets in because it enter the bloodstream regardless. Maybe its just a personal preference

 

[mike33511]

I would have thought that intra-muscular would hurt more?
I inject my insulin sub-q and I don't get any issues or major pain with that.
Surely it doesn't really matter how it gets in because it enter the bloodstream regardless. Maybe its just a personal preference

Insulin needles are 30g, right? Going up to 25g or even 27g, like you would have to for test, makes a huge difference.

 

[InItForGainz]

Insulin needles are 30g, right? Going up to 25g or even 27g, like you would have to for test, makes a huge difference.

They're ultra thin needles that go into/onto a pen. 4mm, I think

 

[Nac]

All I know is that the only acute pain I get when injecting IM, is when the needle initially pierces the skin. No pain whatsoever past that point.

 

[mike33511]

All I know is that the only acute pain I get when injecting IM, is when the needle initially pierces the skin. No pain whatsoever past that point.

Yeah, and that's only in certain spots. Sometimes I don't feel it at all (any pain, at least).

 

[InItForGainz]

All I know is that the only acute pain I get when injecting IM, is when the needle initially pierces the skin. No pain whatsoever past that point.

How deep do you have to go for IM?

 

[mike33511]

How deep do you have to go for IM?

Depends on where you're injecting and your body fat percentage.

Glutes: 1" at least.
Quads: I'd go with 1" just to be safe, but it's a pretty lean part of your body, so less would probably work.
Delts: 5/8" or maybe even 3/8" if you're lean enough.

 

[Nac]

How deep do you have to go for IM?

Depends on where you're injecting and your body fat percentage.

Glutes: 1" at least.
Quads: I'd go with 1" just to be safe, but it's a pretty lean part of your body, so less would probably work.
Delts: 5/8" or maybe even 3/8" if you're lean enough.

Yeah.

For me, depends on how lean the site is and how much oil Im trying to push.

Ventroglute I sometimes wont even go full in with a 1inch. But glutes, I use a 1.5 and tend to go nigh on full in.

 

[Smont]

How deep do you have to go for IM?

I can hit quads n delts with slin pins no prob, fuk what every1 says bout not pushing oil thru cus thats bs ive done it a million times. Its been awhile sense i pinned but that dont change.

 

[Smont]

If u miss the muscle it still gets absorbed

 

[InItForGainz]

Probably a stupid question but do I have to PCT with a Test C TRT?

 

[mike33511]

Probably a stupid question but do I have to PCT with a Test C TRT?

No. Generally, you stay on for life.

 

[InItForGainz]

Spoke to my Endo today to discuss my concerns with the lower Testogel dosage and she's offered me Oral Testosterone Undeconate (Androil).
Is this a better option than my self prescribed Test C?

 

[Nac]

Spoke to my Endo today to discuss my concerns with the lower Testogel dosage and she's offered me Oral Testosterone Undeconate (Androil).
Is this a better option than my self prescribed Test C?

You mean Andriol? From what Ive read Crisler is not a fan (says its a waste). And, according to this 2016 article its not approved in US for trt due to "adverse effects"? Apparently it was pulled in Canada too. Have a look:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182226/

Why your doc against IM?

 

[InItForGainz]

You mean Andriol? From what Ive read Crisler is not a fan (says its a waste). And, according to this 2016 article its not approved in US for trt due to "adverse effects"? Apparently it was pulled in Canada too. Have a look:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182226/

Why your doc against IM?

Thanks for the article. She took me off injections when she took over from my old Endo and put me on the TestoGel. She's against prescribed injections because of my age and keeps trying to scare me with,
"Injections cause gyno"
"Injections cause more side effects"
"Self injections are problematic"
"Self Injections can leak"

 

[justhere4comm]

She hates men. Simple.

 

[Nac]

And people wonder why we sometimes give docs sh1t here.

Responses like that are either an indication of her own prejudices/ignorance, or an abuse of her authority (and insult to your intelligence).

Easy for me to say but the more I read of her, the more I think you should look into a 2nd opinion.

 

[InItForGainz]

And people wonder why we sometimes give docs sh1t here.

Responses like that are either an indication of her own prejudices/ignorance, or an abuse of her authority (and insult to your intelligence).

Easy for me to say but the more I read of her, the more I think you should look into a 2nd opinion.

I've read more than enough on this forum to argue with her and know what I'm talking about.
I got a second opinion (NHS) and he said because she's my registered Endo then what she says goes basically.
You can't pick and choose doctors or specialists over here in the UK and private healthcare/specialists are ridiculously expensive. Hence why I'm considering self administering Test C

 

[Nac]

Oh youre UK, fuk. That Andriol stuff must be all good there, lol makes sense now. Sorry if youd already said this.

Sounds like a pickle man! Fwiw, imo, if we are judging solely on how the various administration methods work and ignoring the politics and cost, IM/subq > everything else.

Obviously youll have to weigh up all the ramifications if you decide to go it alone.

 

[InItForGainz]

Oh youre UK, fuk. That Andriol stuff must be all good there, lol makes sense now. Sorry if youd already said this.

Sounds like a pickle man! Fwiw, imo, if we are judging solely on how the various administration methods work and ignoring the politics and cost, IM/subq > everything else.

Obviously youll have to weigh up all the ramifications if you decide to go it alone.

The Androil sounds good tbh, it's used as the hormone replacement for trangender people over here. My only reservation is the fact that it's oral and could cause liver issues. But then again if it's used for transgender people who are on it for life it must work.
Any thoughts on Androil Nac

 

[Nac]

Sorry bro the only research Ive done on Andriol is limited to that review I linked, and US trt forums. Obviously there will be limited anecdotal info on it in the States.

 

[InItForGainz]

2x100mg of Sub-Q Test C must be a better option than any sort of oral test surely? Cheaper than going private too

 

[Nac]

Well with inj you will have better dose flexibility, ie if you decide to do a blast you just increase your injection. Would/could you really start popping 20 pills a day?

 

[InItForGainz]

Well with inj you will have better dose flexibility, ie if you decide to do a blast you just increase your injection. Would/could you really start popping 20 pills a day?

I'd obviously take ancillaries like TUDCA and Aromasin and increase my water intake if I did go with injections, but with those included what kind of sides from 2x100mg Test C could I expect?

 

[Nac]

I'd obviously take ancillaries like TUDCA and Aromasin and increase my water intake if I did go with injections, but with those included what kind of sides from 2x100mg Test C could I expect?

You dont need to take TUDCA with inj.

These are good:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701485/

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.87.1.8172

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(01)00833-6/abstract

Liver will not be impacted by inj. Lipids will be dose dependant.

But onus is on you to be responsible for monitoring your bloods.

And bro, 200mg cyp per week is likely to have you supraphysiological for most of the week. Its a high end trt dose.

 

[InItForGainz]

You dont need to take TUDCA with inj.

These are good:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701485/

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.87.1.8172

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(01)00833-6/abstract

Liver will not be impacted by inj. Lipids will be dose dependant.

But onus is on you to be responsible for monitoring your bloods.

And bro, 200mg cyp per week is likely to have you supraphysiological for most of the week. Its a high end trt dose.

Thanks for those bro, repped.
Gunna be hard to find a doc who'd be willing to monitor my bloods knowing that I was on AAS :/
"Supraphysiological"?? Would you recommend I lower it?

 

[Nac]

Thanks for those bro, repped.
Gunna be hard to find a doc who'd be willing to monitor my bloods knowing that I was on AAS :/
"Supraphysiological"?? Would you recommend I lower it?

Cant you get your own bloods? Thatd be ideal. I mean, you need to monitor TT, e2, lipids, hematocrit/rbc, at a bare minimum.

Supraphysiological will be any level that exceeds what the body can produce naturally; typically for TT, approx

1200 ng/dl
41 nmol/L

Theres lots of differing approaches and philosophies to trt. Some will say start conservative (100mg per wk) and adjust up if bloods and feelz warrant it.

My own opinion is to aim for high end of normal range when you get bloods done at the lowest point (just before your next due pin). I think you want to aim for a balance between high end TT and minimal AI usage, none at all preferrably. Id be inclined to start at 150mg per week injections, or 2x 75mg. Somewhere around there.

But, research what clinics advise (dont go by bros who dose whatever and dont monitor).

 

[InItForGainz]

Cant you get your own bloods? Thatd be ideal. I mean, you need to monitor TT, e2, lipids, hematocrit/rbc, at a bare minimum.

Supraphysiological will be any level that exceeds what the body can produce naturally; typically for TT, approx

1200 ng/dl
41 nmol/L

Theres lots of differing approaches and philosophies to trt. Some will say start conservative (100mg per wk) and adjust up if bloods and feelz warrant it.

My own opinion is to aim for high end of normal range when you get bloods done at the lowest point (just before your next due pin). I think you want to aim for a balance between high end TT and minimal AI usage, none at all preferrably. Id be inclined to start at 150mg per week injections, or 2x 75mg. Somewhere around there.

But, research what clinics advise (dont go by bros who dose whatever and dont monitor).

I can get my own bloods if I can find a willing GP/doctor who'd draw and send them off knowing full well that I was on AAS's.
The E3D Aromasin would just be a preventitive dose, rather be safe than sorry and I really don't wanna be having to deal with high Estrogen sides.
Thanks for the dosing advice, I'll start at 75mg E3D for a month and then adjust from there depending on how I feel and what bloods say.

 

[Nac]

Low e sides can be just as suck...what makes you think you will need the AI and wont be pushing e2 too low using it?

 

[InItForGainz]

Low e sides can be just as suck...what makes you think you will need the AI and wont be pushing e2 too low using it?

What would you suggest as a preventitive high estrogen protocol?
Natty AI maybe, something like OL's Ar1macare Pro?

 

[Nac]

I would always use a pharma AI to control e2.

My advice is to NOT use one unless you are experiencing relevant sides and your numbers are out. I wouldnt use one "just to be preventative" on trt, this isnt like running trestolone.

 

[InItForGainz]

I've got a few bottles of pharma grade Aromasin in my emergency box anyway, hence why I was considering it for this Test C TRT. I know pharma grade is always best but I think I'd still want some sort of prevention/control ancillary, even if just to keep the estrogen at bay if you know where I'm coming from