Clomid to Boost endogenous test?

beesknees

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First post here, hoping to get some of your opinions . I am wanting to use clomid or possible nolva with the addition of aromasin if needed to boost endogenous test. I am borderline low as per blood test. LH and FSH were also low, estradiol was mid range, shbg was high and GH was mid range. I can't find the actual blood test results so I may have to get them printed at my doctors office. I am usually low energy, confidence, poor libido, rarely get morning wood. In the past I believe I had good test levels although I have only ever had two blood tests. The most recent was was about 6 months ago which was prompted from a concussion. I haven't really felt the same since hitting my head and wanted my hormones checked. In the past however when doing everything right, sleeping, eating, lifting, meditating I felt super jacked up and put on a decent amount of muscle. Several friends and family members actually thought iIwas juicing. I have read about the clomid sides as well as the fact that it lowers igf1 and I am planning to take something to counteract that. Looking forward to hearing your opinions
Cheers
 

beesknees

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t4/ 13.8pmol (11-22)
Estradiol 47 pmol/l
FSH 5 iu (1-18)
LH 3iu (2-9)
Testosterone 13.2nmol/l (8.4-28.7)/
Using an online free and bio available testosterone calculator (i used average albumin levels since they weren't tested i got (free test)1.43% Bioavailable test 33.5%
t3 4.9 pmol/l (3.5-6.5)
Thyroid peroxidase antibodies <28U/ML (<60)
DHEA 5.0 nmol/l
SHBG 55.6 nmol/L
IGF1 197 mg/L
Prolactin 11 ug/l (2-18)
There was other blood work but I don't think it is relevent
 

greekgeorge

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Yes man it works I went to the doctor had low t and I want kids so I'm on 25 mg clomid as trt. I also take one pump a day of dermacrine and Olympus labs super pct at 5 caps
 

greekgeorge

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My first test alone with just super pct my test was 290. I stopped and it went to 190 in ten days. So I know that super pct works. Doc put me on clomid and I take 100mg pregnenenolone.
 

greekgeorge

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My last test at 8 weeks on this combo and I was at 800
 

greekgeorge

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I also take 6 000 in vitd3 and 400 mcg selenium and 12 mg boron. Clomid will increase shgb
 

greekgeorge

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I take high doses of Tongat Ali. Got it cheap at powder city supps. About a gram a day and my shgb is in normal range now
 

greekgeorge

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So to clarify my stack
Am 3 caps super pct
6mg boron
200mcg selenium
Clomid 25mg
500mg tongat
50mg pregnenolone best thing for low energy
 

greekgeorge

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Second dose of the day is the same but no clomid and one less cap of super pct
 

beesknees

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Thanks for the tips GG. Does the DHEA and Pregnenolone suppress endogenous production. From What I have read it can be mildly suppressive. Does Tongat lower shbg, I couldn't find any info saying this. I am also concerned with the igf 1. Thinking about maybe using mk677 with the clomid. I wanna try as standalone at least at first to get a good idea how it feels on its own. My biggest concern with clomid was the estrogen sides/estrogen being too high. Any experiences/bloodwork dealing with estrogen being too high etc...
Thanks
 

greekgeorge

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My estrogen didn't rise with Olympus labs supernpct. Anywhere around 40 mg to 75 mg of 7oxo your good. In fact I think my estrogen is usually a tad low. That's why I lower doses on off days to 4 caps. As for dermacrine I have been taking at 2 pumps a day. Sometimes 3 pumps. My sperm count has not lowered. I get that checked. Clomid while boosting test high raises
Shgb so you need to increase free test. Tongat works good and is great for libido. I take 750 to 1500 mg a day. And I notice a big
Difference when I'm off. It's been about
12 weeks on Thais stack. My strength is
Up and the boys have never been more plump. They ache till I take care of it. And my bloodworm and sperm count come back great
 

greekgeorge

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If estrogen is to high get any product with 7 oxo in it and you will be fine with high estrogen. I did mk667. I think it's pure fatness in a bottle. If your lean go for it. If not you'll just look fat. I gained 15 pounds of pure water in 3 weeks. I took it for almost a year
 

user567

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Clomid alone will raise it plenty. You dont need any of the other crap. Last time I took Nolva my test went from 600 to 1200
 
nosnmiveins

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Clomid alone will raise it plenty. You dont need any of the other crap. Last time I took Nolva my test went from 600 to 1200
I wish people would realize that all these cycle support and OTC PCT supps are a complete waste of money. Clomid or nolva is all you need
 

greekgeorge

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Well I mostly agree but when I first went to endo complaining of low t I was on Olympus labs super pct. my test was 290. I thought it was junk so I stopped on my second blood test three weeks later it was 190. So I'd say it
Works. May or may not be worth the money but that's your call. I'd take the 100 points to turn 1200 total in 1300. Cause my amp goes to 11
 

beesknees

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Having never taken any SERMS my biggest concerns are. Clomids antagonist/agonist effects on different tissues causing anxiety, depression, crying, libido issues etc... even with testosterone driven estrogen in check. High estrogen resulting from high test(ideally controlled with an AI). Raised SHBG from clomid (I already have high SHBG). Seems like there or only a few effective ways to do this armidex being one of them. Apperently Clomid lowers igf1 although it is unclear to me if it is lowered enough to be concerned. An added issue with Nolva would be Liver issues if used long term. Apparently with Clomifene you can avoid the liver issues. However from reading people's experiences Nolva seems to have less estrogen related sides as Clomid but also is not as effective at raising test. Toremifene seems to have some of the advantages of Nolva without the liver issues so that is another serm I am considering. It seems like most of the compounds except for clomid are antagonistic to estrogen receptors on bones. I am curios what effect this would have on bone mass. Any thoughts or info about any or all of the pros/cons of these drugs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 

CatSnake

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Having never taken any SERMS my biggest concerns are. Clomids antagonist/agonist effects on different tissues causing anxiety, depression, crying, libido issues etc... even with testosterone driven estrogen in check. High estrogen resulting from high test(ideally controlled with an AI). Raised SHBG from clomid (I already have high SHBG). Seems like there or only a few effective ways to do this armidex being one of them. Apperently Clomid lowers igf1 although it is unclear to me if it is lowered enough to be concerned. An added issue with Nolva would be Liver issues if used long term. Apparently with Clomifene you can avoid the liver issues. However from reading people's experiences Nolva seems to have less estrogen related sides as Clomid but also is not as effective at raising test. Toremifene seems to have some of the advantages of Nolva without the liver issues so that is another serm I am considering. It seems like most of the compounds except for clomid are antagonistic to estrogen receptors on bones. I am curios what effect this would have on bone mass. Any thoughts or info about any or all of the pros/cons of these drugs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
if you're looking for the strongest SERM, then that would be clomid. sides are easily avoidable by taking a normal dosage (25 mg/day) and taking it before bed.

your E2 looked a little high as well, but it might be simpler to start off with the clomid, and then add in an AI later to dial that in....

below are some links to some info on SERMs and AIs:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288969-info-ais.html

Also, make sure you're getting enough zinc, magnesium and vitamin D. a deficiency in any of those can lower your testosterone production...
 

beesknees

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Ok, sounds like a lot of the bad experiences I am reading are from highers dosages. I believe my e2 is low not high. Please correct me if I am wrong
 

beesknees

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Why should I clomid before bed. What are the advantages?
 

CatSnake

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Ok, sounds like a lot of the bad experiences I am reading are from highers dosages. I believe my e2 is low not high. Please correct me if I am wrong
disregard. I looked at it wrong (pg vs pmol)
 

beesknees

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Ok, good to know I had not read that. Do you think since my e2 is very low I would be considered a low aromitiser or would I need several blood tests to determine that?
 

CatSnake

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Ok, good to know I had not read that. Do you think since my e2 is very low I would be considered a low aromitiser or would I need several blood tests to determine that?
could be. it might be connected to your low-ish testosterone level, too.

estrogen is typical higher in guys with more bodyfat, those that drink a lot of beer, have low zinc/mag/D, etc...

^if you are otherwise lean and healthy and don't drink much, then I suppose you don't have many of the risk factors there...
 

beesknees

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Catsnake you seem very knowledgeable. Do you think I am foolish to try and self medicate with Clomid/nolva/AI. Should I do a pct restart protocol and see if it helps. Or do you think HRT type usage would be more beneficial. I have a fairly good understanding of how these drugs work but am a little hesitant to mess with my hormones without the help of a doctor. Seems like worse case scenario I stop. If this is the case will everything reach a homeostasis (hopefully with better values for the various hormones) or could I cause a imbalance that becomes a problem in and of itself
 

greekgeorge

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I've been on trt. I agree on the zma addition and selenium. Its here in my stack along with boron. I have never felt better. Yes it raises e2 but I haven't had a side. Clomid didnt hurt my libido and I think it helps a lot in that regard. Not test libido for sure buthigher thannornal. It makes my nuts ache so I gotta sack it daily. Lobg story short i prefer clomid to trt.vest move ever. And 12.5 mg of clomid works great. In fact I prefer it to 25mg
 

beesknees

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Ya I was thinking about trying 12.5 first and bumping it up if it's not effective enough
 
yates84

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50mg of clomid a day will have your test over 1000, no need for anything else. Will slightly elevate estrogen but that's nothing to worry about tbh.
 

CatSnake

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Catsnake you seem very knowledgeable. Do you think I am foolish to try and self medicate with Clomid/nolva/AI. Should I do a pct restart protocol and see if it helps. Or do you think HRT type usage would be more beneficial. I have a fairly good understanding of how these drugs work but am a little hesitant to mess with my hormones without the help of a doctor. Seems like worse case scenario I stop. If this is the case will everything reach a homeostasis (hopefully with better values for the various hormones) or could I cause a imbalance that becomes a problem in and of itself
well, several of us here use clomid to avoid going on TRT, either because of the "permanence" of it, or because we're low, but not low enough to get treated properly.

clomid works well for a lot of guys, and if it can improve your quality of life with few side effects, then I think it's a great idea. but if you're hoping to having testosterone levels closer to 1200 than 600, then regular TRT might be better for you.... however, I don't think you're currently "low" enough to get on TRT, either.
 

beesknees

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Are there any tried and true ways to lower shbg
Mine is already at the top of the range
I know stinging nettle is known for this but it also apparently messes with test>dht conversion
 
yates84

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Are there any tried and true ways to lower shbg
Mine is already at the top of the range
I know stinging nettle is known for this but it also apparently messes with test>dht conversion
Anabolics: anything dht derivative

Natty: lj100
 

CatSnake

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Are there any tried and true ways to lower shbg
Mine is already at the top of the range
I know stinging nettle is known for this but it also apparently messes with test>dht conversion
that might merit further investigation....

usually an AI will lower SHBG, as high E2 levels raise that.

I saw you had a couple of your thyroid levels posted, but did you have a full thyroid panel done?
 

greekgeorge

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Are there any tried and true ways to lower shbg
Mine is already at the top of the range
I know stinging nettle is known for this but it also apparently messes with test>dht conversion
Lj100 is Tongat Ali. It's expensive. Really good high quality Tongat on powder city. I make my own caps. 30 bucks last me almost 3 months. It works well. My libido exploded on that and clomid. 12.5mg is the best for a trt alternative dose. I've been on 25 mg for a while and I'm goin down to 12.5 I had dosages as low as 8 mg give me blood levels of 750. 25 mg doesn't hardly have me much higher. Or at least not enough to justify its use. I think 100iu hcg daily 12.5 mg clomid. Low dose antiestrogen and some libido orientation pct product and you will be set like the lj100 or tongat
 
ironjunkie91

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Ok, sounds like a lot of the bad experiences I am reading are from highers dosages. I believe my e2 is low not high. Please correct me if I am wrong
In my experience and with several others I'd say your E2 is on the high side I'd PERSONALLY say shoot for around 25-28 that seems to be the sweet spot. As for SHBG take some boron it frees up natty bound test. As for a S.E.R.M I'd personally choose Tamoxifen/Nolvadex. 20mg a day clomi makes me an emotional roller coaster no matter what time of day I take it. No matter what products you take there is ALWAYS going to be some sides even if you don't notice it. Stick with the tried and true methods and if the pros don't out weigh the cons don't do it. Your labs aren't that bad to where you can't function and be healthy. If it was me I'd just get some good ol test and boron and maybe some arimidex to be on the safe side and forget about everything else. Good luck!
 
ironjunkie91

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Also consider getting your iron levels checked out.. men and postmenopausal women have a higher tendency to store iron ( once it's in your system it really doesn't have any place to go) in their heart liver and pancreas which can lead to some nasty problems if left untreated. One early side effect of too much iron is its effects on hormone production.
 

beesknees

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that might merit further investigation....

usually an AI will lower SHBG, as high E2 levels raise that.

I saw you had a couple of your thyroid levels posted, but did you have a full thyroid panel done?
No unfortunately no other thyroid values. Although I could get them. My doc seems happy to do more testing since we are 6 months from the blood test I posted. I am thinking I should get another panel done before I start the Clomid which should arrive this week. The connection between the thyroid and the other hormones is something i don't have a good grasp on
 

beesknees

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In my experience and with several others I'd say your E2 is on the high side I'd PERSONALLY say shoot for around 25-28 that seems to be the sweet spot. As for SHBG take some boron it frees up natty bound test. As for a S.E.R.M I'd personally choose Tamoxifen/Nolvadex. 20mg a day clomi makes me an emotional roller coaster no matter what time of day I take it. No matter what products you take there is ALWAYS going to be some sides even if you don't notice it. Stick with the tried and true methods and if the pros don't out weigh the cons don't do it. Your labs aren't that bad to where you can't function and be healthy. If it was me I'd just get some good ol test and boron and maybe some arimidex to be on the safe side and forget about everything else. Good luck!
I am in Canada, so the estrogen values are in pmol/l, I think you might be mistaking with the American testing values. I believe I am below range actually. I am curious how this will effect the SERM therapy/if I should take a AI straightaway or wait for any symptoms to pop up before I take. I just recently started taking boron. I ordered Clomid, Nolva and Armidex. So I have some options If one doesn't work/is causing sides.
Are you saying I should jump on Test... Id love too, I am trying to avoid doing that ATM though with the whole long term commitment side of it
 

beesknees

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Also consider getting your iron levels checked out.. men and postmenopausal women have a higher tendency to store iron ( once it's in your system it really doesn't have any place to go) in their heart liver and pancreas which can lead to some nasty problems if left untreated. One early side effect of too much iron is its effects on hormone production.
Will do. Thanks
 
ironjunkie91

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Anytime. Just an idea. You was right I was mistaken that would be around 13 so considering most that I know feel better around the 28 mark or 103 in your values I'd say yes that's in the low side.. I'd avoid arimidex or any A.I/S.E.R.M for that matter estrogen is a very important hormone. Possibly try HCG it has a noted effect on increasing E2 levels and testosterone by mimicking LH in the body. There is a drug called Triptorelin you could consider taking if you went the Testosterone route and decided it's not for you with the commitment. I'd only use if your natural levels are shut down and strong PCT doesn't recover natural levels. The endocrine system is a very interesting and complex system that demands much respect and knowledge to understand

also I'm not a doctor so I can't advise you to take any drug/hormone I'm only sharing information that's to the best of my knowledge accurate and an option if you decided to go the route of drugs and or hormone therapy ;)
 

greekgeorge

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If triptorelin worked everyone would use it. hope it works though let us know if
You try it
 

beesknees

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Anytime. Just an idea. You was right I was mistaken that would be around 13 so considering most that I know feel better around the 28 mark or 103 in your values I'd say yes that's in the low side.. I'd avoid arimidex or any A.I/S.E.R.M for that matter estrogen is a very important hormone. Possibly try HCG it has a noted effect on increasing E2 levels and testosterone by mimicking LH in the body. There is a drug called Triptorelin you could consider taking if you went the Testosterone route and decided it's not for you with the commitment. I'd only use if your natural levels are shut down and strong PCT doesn't recover natural levels. The endocrine system is a very interesting and complex system that
demands much respect and knowledge to understand
also I'm not a doctor so I can't advise you to take any drug/hormone I'm only sharing information that's to the best of my knowledge accurate and an option if you decided to go the route of drugs and or hormone therapy ;)

You think I should avoid SERM's altogther on account of my low estrogen?
 
ironjunkie91

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If I had low estrogen already I think I would avoid it, an try testosterone. Do you have symptoms of low estrogen? You could try a serm to get testosterone elevated but you're possibly gonna run into more issues even with good T levels if your body can't use the little amount of estrogen it has. Sex drive will suck brain fog and other possible more serious side effects with bone health and other things. It's not going to be beneficial in MY OPINION. Seems like T would be a better choice it'll increase estrogen and total testosterone levels. There is always a downside like yin and yang. Testosterone therapy... but therapy is for life. Try it for a little and see if you like it. Which most guys will... and see If the good is worth a tiny poke. SubQ injections aren't **** btw which is an option. And if not stop taking it and run a heavy pct and live with the function you already have. That's what I would do
 
ironjunkie91

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greekgeorge Not necessarily. I know several individuals who's never heard of it... not a well known drug and most aren't suppressed enough and can not regain HPTA function without a normal pct to use it. And if they were they'd probably opt for TRT instead and so would I.
 

beesknees

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My understanding of a Serm/clomid is that it is a agonist/antagonist on different estrogen receptors and the way it raises test is by filling up the receptor spot on the hypothalamus/pituary. The body senses this as no estrogen on the receptor and this boosts Lh>test>estrogen, to boost estrogen levels. Doesn't that inherently mean more estrogen. Its certainly not gonna lower my estrogen is it? Or will it lower estrogen at certain receptor sites other than the Hypothalamus/pituary and cause problems and if this was the case wouldn't that be a problem for everybody.

Correct me if I am wrong but I assume raising my test which is the reason I am taking clomid in the first place will inherently raise my estrogen, possibly the ratios will stay the same as they are now but just with higher levels of both. For example if my test and estrogen both doubled That would put them at good levels.

I did some DAA a while back and defiantly had some HIGH estrogen issues. Super bitchy(which is way out of character for me), some skin issues/acne and crying all the time. Do you think this was simply raising test and it aromitizing to estrogen causing these symptoms or some specific action of DAA causing more estrogen than is beneficial. Or in other words am I gonna have similar issues from raising test with clomid?

The clomid, armidex and Nolva should arrive in the mail today. I am still a little unsure which route im gonna take

Thanks!
 
ironjunkie91

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My understanding of a Serm/clomid is that it is a agonist/antagonist on different estrogen receptors and the way it raises test is by filling up the receptor spot on the hypothalamus/pituary. The body senses this as no estrogen on the receptor and this boosts Lh>test>estrogen, to boost estrogen levels. Doesn't that inherently mean more estrogen. Its certainly not gonna lower my estrogen is it? Or will it lower estrogen at certain receptor sites other than the Hypothalamus/pituary and cause problems and if this was the case wouldn't that be a problem for everybody.

Correct me if I am wrong but I assume raising my test which is the reason I am taking clomid in the first place will inherently raise my estrogen, possibly the ratios will stay the same as they are now but just with higher levels of both. For example if my test and estrogen both doubled That would put them at good levels.

I did some DAA a while back and defiantly had some HIGH estrogen issues. Super bitchy(which is way out of character for me), some skin issues/acne and crying all the time. Do you think this was simply raising test and it aromitizing to estrogen causing these symptoms or some specific action of DAA causing more estrogen than is beneficial. Or in other words am I gonna have similar issues from raising test with clomid?

The clomid, armidex and Nolva should arrive in the mail today. I am still a little unsure which route im gonna take

Thanks!
An A.I is not a good idea as its going to pretty much eliminate any estrogen you have in your body.. your body tries to maintain homeostasis and by using a serm your body increases testosterone levels in an attempt to increase estrogen. That's basically what's going on. But this only happens while you're taking the drug and the elevated testosterone will return to normal levels after the drugs out of your system. While the serm is active in the system estrogen you do have in the body will not be able to bind to its receptor sites. It seems illogical to me to use a serm to increase test levels and blocking estrogen when your gonna have low estrogen sides.*Definitely don't use the A.I they are very powerful at eliminating estrogen from the body. And also... it don't matter how much estrogen it creates because your body's not gonna be able to use it
 

beesknees

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Got the AI there just in case I need it. My understanding with the serm is that it takes up the receptor site on SOME tissues not all.
If what your saying about SERMs blocking estrogen from attaching to receptors and this causing low E symptoms then everybody taking serms would have that issue not just someone with Low E. Unless having more estrogen around competes for the site with the Serm or something like that
I do really appreciate your input bruv
 
ironjunkie91

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Yes, some. The S is selective. Normally the breast is where it's blocked to prevent new growth of cancer in women and other uses. Not everyone is the same... not every medication at a given dose affects everyone in the same fashion. My normal PCT is 40/40/20/20 /10 Nolvadex only..around 2.5 weeks I always have low E sides. Others dont. My T always comes back to its original **** level lol my last labs I was around 80ng/dl away on the low end from normal but it fluctuates. My point is everyone is different and it's your body your choice... do what feels right for you! Good luck buddy
 

greekgeorge

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I take a ai with my clomid in Olympus labs supernpct. It's got libido booster zma and a ai. But I only take 4 caps a day. Instead of 10 lol so it last forever. I go by my blood work and my joints and morning wood. When I go to 5 caps daily I have issues. Dry joints and no morning wood. As someone stated earlier boron is good for reducing shgb so I take 12mg daily 400mcg selenium with the zma and b5 I take for acne cause clomid destroys my face I have all the testosterone multi vitamins and minerals. Also take bit d3 at 7 000 iu daily. 25 mg clomid daily and 2 pumps dermacrine. I have never felt better. I also take 60 mg pregnenolone split in two doses. And I have never felt better. Test levels are near 1000. From 190. Libido is just ok. If I take off the ai it comes back with a vengeance. But than i bloat some. So sometimes I take only 3 caps of super pct daily.
 

greekgeorge

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In terms of trt for life. I'm not Against it but. Injections in your 80s and up. Probably high risk of infections. Especially if it's not from a doctor. I have had friends need intravenous antibiotics from a dirty shot. There's the gel but it will suck. Because the gels suck. Testim is ok. Smells good lol
 

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