New Clomiphene Study

The_Old_Guy

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Myrmidon

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Well that is eye opening. Ive run one cycle and begun thinking that maybe a clomid/exemestane cycle to boost to nominal levels/natural production a few times a year would be a better and healthier option at my age.

This study seems to support that if Im reading correctly...in for info. I'll be reading this more closely when I have free time. Thanks OP!
 
netflixNchill

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I laugh when I see people stack nolvadex and exemestane during pct without clomid
 

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Clomid is definitely great for getting the hpta restarted and many definitely overdose it... but many times they're using crappy reseach chem brands that are underdosed to begin with/bad quality raws. If you really want some interesting studies look into enclomiphene... isomer of clomid that has less sides than clomid (speaking of possible emotional sides). Similar results to test gels/creams in effect.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Clomid is definitely great for getting the hpta restarted and many definitely overdose it... but many times they're using crappy reseach chem brands that are underdosed to begin with/bad quality raws. If you really want some interesting studies look into enclomiphene... isomer of clomid that has less sides than clomid (speaking of possible emotional sides). Similar results to test gels/creams in effect.
Will be PCTing with enclomid in about 6-7 weeks.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Clomid is definitely great for getting the hpta restarted and many definitely overdose it... but many times they're using crappy reseach chem brands that are underdosed to begin with/bad quality raws. If you really want some interesting studies look into enclomiphene... isomer of clomid that has less sides than clomid (speaking of possible emotional sides). Similar results to test gels/creams in effect.
Also will be patented = $$$ Regular Clomid is fine if you don't get sides at sane doses and obviously get Rx or a good RC with bloodwork showing improvement.
 

NewAgeMayan

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Pity no estradiol/sensitive e2 assay done (that I could see). Didnt see one in the 100mg challenge study, either.
 
Hyde

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Is this indicating that 3x/wk of Rx Clomid at 50mg/dose is actually the optimal dosing protocol??
 

NewAgeMayan

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Is this indicating that 3x/wk of Rx Clomid at 50mg/dose is actually the optimal dosing protocol??
Thats why I find the lack of e2 and SHBG data disappointing.

3x 50mg is not too far off 25mg/d as a gross weekly dose. But...does dosing higher but slightly less frequently result in less e2/SHBG increases compared to lower ed dosing? Does it result in less zuclomiphene accumulation over time?

Something very apparent when spending a bit of time at various trt forums is that clomid (and exemestane) dosing can be quite personalised; one guys ideal protocol is another guys limp dik.
 
Joe12

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So if, "Clomiphene was initially prescribed at doses between 25 mg three times a week and 50 mg/day. Six to eight weeks..." Does this mean the standard 50/50/25/25 is to short and aggressive?

I have read both sides, and seen many arguments that say 25 is the max. It seems logical that if we are looking for sustainability, and better recovery a lower dose at a longer duration would be optimal. Is there a happy medium, what do you guys think? How about something like this...

35/30/25/20/15/10
25/25/20/15/10/5

I am still unsure what the "optimal" dose is.
 

NewAgeMayan

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Never had a problem with just Nolvadex. My T has gone from 200 to 1400 with just Nolva more than once.
Meh. What were your lh/fsh numbers? Id be surprised if SHBG wasnt out of range as well. And, what was your TT 2-3mnths later?

I mean, really, what is the point in pushing TT to non-sustainable levels?
 

NewAgeMayan

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So if, "Clomiphene was initially prescribed at doses between 25 mg three times a week and 50 mg/day. Six to eight weeks..." Does this mean the standard 50/50/25/25 is to short and aggressive?

I have read both sides, and seen many arguments that say 25 is the max. It seems logical that if we are looking for sustainability, and better recovery a lower dose at a longer duration would be optimal. Is there a happy medium, what do you guys thing? How about something this...

35/30/25/20/15/10
25/25/20/15/10/5

I am still unsure what the "optimal" does is.
Whats the ideal training program?

You have to keep in mind that most of these studies use secondary hypo men. The treatment goal is to get all their levels within range, and to slowly titrate the dose down whilst maintaining those levels.

Best case scenario, their HPTA is responsive and they can eventually come right off the drug. But for many of them, they will need to stay on some kind of dose, which again can vary widely.

Going into PCT your levels may well for all intents and purposes be that of a secondary hypo. BUT, hopefully, your HPTA is responsive and still as healthy as it was pre-cycle, and so capable of ticking along by itself. You use clomid to most quickly and efficiently get it ticking at its homeostatic levels.

50mg ed doses are very rarely needed. Plus, you dont want to be on this any longer than needed; shouldnt have to do an extended taper at the end because, hopefully, you are responsive and healthy.

Exemestane will tend to further aid this process.
 
Joe12

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Whats the ideal training program?

You have to keep in mind that most of these studies use secondary hypo men. The treatment goal is to get all their levels within range, and to slowly titrate the dose down whilst maintaining those levels.

Best case scenario, their HPTA is responsive and they can eventually come right off the drug. But for many of them, they will need to stay on some kind of dose, which again can vary widely.

Going into PCT your levels may well for all intents and purposes be that of a secondary hypo. BUT, hopefully, your HPTA is responsive and still as healthy as it was pre-cycle, and so capable of ticking along by itself. You use clomid to most quickly and efficiently get it ticking at its homeostatic levels.

50mg ed doses are very rarely needed. Plus, you dont want to be on this any longer than needed; shouldnt have to do an extended taper at the end because, hopefully, you are responsive and healthy.

Exemestane will tend to further aid this process.
I can see your point, so what do you think is a better dose then the normal 50/50/25/25... If 50 is to high, would you say 35/35/20/20?

Im only asking bc I will be running my PCT in a couple weeks, and previously did 50/50/25/25
 

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I can see your point, so what do you think is a better dose then the normal 50/50/25/25... If 50 is to high, would you say 35/35/20/20?

Im only asking bc I will be running my PCT in a couple weeks, and previously did 50/50/25/25
If 50-etc worked for you previously with little sides, then its gotta be your call whether you deviate from that in the future. I personally think 50 is unnecessary, and the trt protocols Ive seen are consistent with this. The studies indicate that 25 is sufficient at getting guys into mid-upper range, and this will tend to be more so with dudes like us who have healthy HPTA.
 
Joe12

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If 50-etc worked for you previously with little sides, then its gotta be your call whether you deviate from that in the future. I personally think 50 is unnecessary, and the trt protocols Ive seen are consistent with this. The studies indicate that 25 is sufficient at getting guys into mid-upper range, and this will tend to be more so with dudes like us who have healthy HPTA.
I am going to step down from 50, I thought it was overkill the first time I did it, then I began reading more and found a lot of studies that confirmed it. I think Ill follow the study and try 25/25/20/20 (or 15 at the end). I have normal HPTA, and dont want to F it up.
 
booneman77

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This might be my new favorite thread right now. Great discussion guys
 
Ricky10

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Never had a problem with just Nolvadex. My T has gone from 200 to 1400 with just Nolva more than once.
Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery. Clomid has been shown to lower LH and GnRH which is the exact opposite of what you want during PCT where you are ultimately trying to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex does all that Clomid does for TT and more because it does raise LH and GnRH which equates to a much more successful PCT. Nolvadex also promotes healthy estrogens in the liver which improves your lipid profile...unfortunately Clomid does not offer this benefit either...
 
NoAddedHmones

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Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery. Clomid has been shown to lower LH and GnRH which is the exact opposite of what you want during PCT where you are ultimately trying to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex does all that Clomid does for TT and more because it does raise LH and GnRH which equates to a much more successful PCT. Nolvadex also promotes healthy estrogens in the liver which improves your lipid profile...unfortunately Clomid does not offer this benefit either...
Wat8.jpg
 

NewAgeMayan

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Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery. Clomid has been shown to lower LH and GnRH which is the exact opposite of what you want during PCT where you are ultimately trying to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex does all that Clomid does for TT and more because it does raise LH and GnRH which equates to a much more successful PCT. Nolvadex also promotes healthy estrogens in the liver which improves your lipid profile...unfortunately Clomid does not offer this benefit either...
Plz post the studies demonstrating this. Ive got a handful showing exactly the opposite ( not including the study OP posted).
 
xR1pp3Rx

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Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery. Clomid has been shown to lower LH and GnRH which is the exact opposite of what you want during PCT where you are ultimately trying to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex does all that Clomid does for TT and more because it does raise LH and GnRH which equates to a much more successful PCT. Nolvadex also promotes healthy estrogens in the liver which improves your lipid profile...unfortunately Clomid does not offer this benefit either...
me thinks you might be confused...
 

NewAgeMayan

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me thinks you might be confused...
Well, there are studies involving clomid where those values/trends occur. Pretty sure it was the test gel responsible, though, and not the clomid.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery...
These guys were hormonallly jacked up - hell two of them had previous cranial pathologies. *We* hopefully have normally functioning systems, just a little sleepy. And most of what else you said makes no sense - the Cis-Isomer of Clomid is Zuclomide, and is mildly estrogenic, which is a good thing for Lipid Profiles. Need some links.

(Enclomephene + Zuclomide = Clomid)
 
The_Old_Guy

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About the dudes:

There were 18 male patients with idiopathic or functional hypogonadotropic
hypogonadism. The patients’ characteristics are presented in Table 1. The mean age was
44.3±6.3 (SD) years (range 21-67 years). The mean BMI was 29.9±4.5 (range 18.5-37.6).
One patient was borderline underweight and one was a class II obese. None of the
patients suffered from chronic diseases, including overt components of the metabolic
syndrome, besides overweight (4). Twelve of the patients presented with decreased libido
and/or erectile dysfunction, 3 complained of fatigue or tiredness, 6 suffered from a range
of emotional or psychological-mental disorders including, anxiety, depression, post-
trauma distress (PTSD) and attention deficit. Two of the patients had histories of cranial
pathology: head trauma and removal of a para-sellar dermoid cyst, respectively. Two
were referred for evaluation because of infertility and turned out to be hypogonadal, 2
were referred because of gynecomastia, 3 had decreased bone mineral density and one
had arrested sexual maturation which coinciding with a diagnosis of attention deficit
disorder, an eating disorder and was treated with sertraline.

Initial individual responses of total testosterone, LH and FSH are presented in
Figure 1. Mean basal total testosterone was 7.6±2.6 nmol/L, and increased to 19.3±5.2
nmol/L following clomiphene treatment (P< 0.0001; paired t-test). Mean basal LH was
2.7±2.1 mIU/L, and increased to 8.3±3.5 nmol/L following clomiphene treatment (P<
0.0001; paired t-test), and mean basal FSH was 4.2±3.6 mIU/L, and increased to 8.6±6.2
nmol/L following clomiphene treatment (P= 0.007; paired t-test). A significant
correlation was observed between post-treatment LH and post-treatment FSH (r 2 - 0.33;
P= 0.02). A borderline significant correlation was observed between post-treatment total-
testosterone and post-treatment LH (r 2 - 0.25; P= 0.049). There were no significant
correlations between basal and post-treatment total testosterone, basal and post-treatment
LH or basal LH and post-treatment total testosterone. Biochemical responses were
observed irrespective of BMI.

Figure 2 illustrates changes in serum total testosterone in response to dose
modifications of clomiphene citrate, in two patients.
Twelve patients (67%) reported subjective improvement in symptoms, including
libido, fatigue, and gynecomastia. Spontaneous pregnancy occurred in the wife of a
patient (#7) who was initially referred for investigation of infertility.
Most of the patients presented no adverse effects, except for one, who experience
transient nipple tenderness, without apparent gynecomastia, while treated with a 50 mg/d
dose, which subsided upon stopping the treatment, and did not recur following
resumption of the treatment with a reduced, 25 mg/d, dose.

Discussion
Our series adds to a considerable body of existing data indicating that clomiphene
citrate may be a suitable alternative to exogenous testosterone in a considerable number
of men with functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (13). The present report
provides a unique insight to the individual biochemical responses to the treatment.
Notably, marked responses were also observed in 2 patients with histories of cranial
pathologies (#1, #8), 2 patients with somewhat elevated basal FSH (#5, #16) and one
with an eating disorder (#15). Thus, a history of cranial pathology, per-se, and functional
hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may not always be mutually exclusive. Clomiphene
may also be useful in some patients with functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism
combined with an apparent primary spermatogenetic defects (elevated FSH). Accordingly,
Shabisigh et al. (14) reported response to clomiphene in 2 patients following orchiopexy
for cryptorchidism and one with a “known genetic abnormality”. Our experience with
patient #15 suggests that clomiphene may also overcome the inhibitory effect of
sertraline on testosterone production and LH secretion, as previously observed in rats
(15). Neither basal testosterone nor basal LH predicted testosterone response to
clomiphene in our patents.

Limitations of our study include the retrospective, observational data collection, a
relatively small, mixed, sample, lack of a formal androgen-deficiency symptoms
assessment, lack of genetic analyzes which could have better characterize the patients
populations and short follow-ups. Nevertheless, all our patients presented favorable
biochemical responses and 2/3 of them reported considerable improvement in their
androgen-deficiency symptoms.

Clomiphene citrate is a mixture of the trans-isomer (enclomiphene), a pure
estrogen antagonist, and the cis-isomer (zuclomide), a weakly estrogenic compound (16).
Clomiphene was initially approved by the FDA in 1967 for ovulation induction in women
with dysfunctional ovulation desiring pregnancy. The stimulatory effect of clomiphene
on testosterone secretion in men, via stimulation of gonadotropin pulsatility and secretion
(17–19), was recognized early on, and was attributed to its anti-estrogenic properties,
decreasing estrogen-induced inhibition of gonadotropins secretion at the hypothalamic
level (20, 21).
 
The_Old_Guy

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FWIW, I'm sticking to low and slow for the time being: 25mg ED for ~6 weeks. I get zero sides (except for hot flashes) at 50mg, so 25 is cake.
 
Myrmidon

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FWIW, I'm sticking to low and slow for the time being: 25mg ED for ~6 weeks. I get zero sides (except for hot flashes) at 50mg, so 25 is cake.
Is that as a pct protocol or trt? How are you dosing your ai if I may ask?
 
The_Old_Guy

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Is that as a pct protocol or trt? How are you dosing your ai if I may ask?
PCT and since I only use 2 Step DHEAs or SARMs, I don't use an AI either on cycle, or in PCT.
 

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I have been using 25 mgs Clomid for 5-6 weeks for my last couple PCT and worked great.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Give that sup3r-2 a run yet?
Not yet man, I'm all confused on what I want to do :D I *still* haven't gone down for recent blood-work yet, so nothing until then for sure. Then I was going to run this supposed natty GH product and do another blood draw, but I figure I'd never be able to take another PH again if I go around "testing" all the natty claims :D So soon on the Super-2 hopefully - unless I decide to cut, then it will be 11KT and Osta again. Just PR'd on the Deadlift, and will be doing so on the Squat too, hopefully - oddly, I'm not taking any "natty anabolic" or "strength" supplements????? How can that be????? If I'm in a surplus, it's only by a hundred or so cals to boot - must be that programming thing :D
 
Hyde

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Not yet man, I'm all confused on what I want to do :D I *still* haven't gone down for recent blood-work yet, so nothing until then for sure. Then I was going to run this supposed natty GH product and do another blood draw, but I figure I'd never be able to take another PH again if I go around "testing" all the natty claims :D So soon on the Super-2 hopefully - unless I decide to cut, then it will be 11KT and Osta again. Just PR'd on the Deadlift, and will be doing so on the Squat too, hopefully - oddly, I'm not taking any "natty anabolic" or "strength" supplements????? How can that be????? If I'm in a surplus, it's only by a hundred or so cals to boot - must be that programming thing :D
You mean intelligent training can yield progress without just throwing larger and larger doses of drugs?! lol I jest, but it took me a couple years of cycling to figure that out, and how to incorporate anabolics as a supplement and not the primary focus.
 
The_Old_Guy

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You mean intelligent training can yield progress without...
Nah man, you have to take something or you won't get stronger :D I ended up PR'ing on the squat (BTW, after you schooled me up on why ATG was stoopid, and I switched to parallel - no more knee pain!) and actually threw on 5lbs more and got that one too, after about 3-5 minutes rest. I am literally taking nothing but 'General Health' stuff at the moment...and food (probably only in a slight surplus at 3300kcal). PROGRAMMING, People! :D
 

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Exactly, and notice how upon cessation of Clomid, TT returns right back to ground zero which kind of indicates no recovery. Clomid has been shown to lower LH and GnRH which is the exact opposite of what you want during PCT where you are ultimately trying to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex does all that Clomid does for TT and more because it does raise LH and GnRH which equates to a much more successful PCT. Nolvadex also promotes healthy estrogens in the liver which improves your lipid profile...unfortunately Clomid does not offer this benefit either...
that's a flawed study that you're referring to...

they use 150 mg/day of clomid (instead of 25 mg/day), which really indicates that high doses are unnecessary, and ultimately, counterproductive.

clomid (and possibly enclomiphene) is the most effective SERM for raising testosterone for most guys:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html
 

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I think people are learning lower dose clomid for longer duration is best for full HPTA recovery. For example 50/50/25/25/12.5/12.5.
 

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These guys were hormonallly jacked up - hell two of them had previous cranial pathologies. *We* hopefully have normally functioning systems, just a little sleepy. And most of what else you said makes no sense - the Cis-Isomer of Clomid is Zuclomide, and is mildly estrogenic, which is a good thing for Lipid Profiles. Need some links.

(Enclomephene + Zuclomide = Clomid)
FWIW,

I had low T numbers about a year ago (285).... I used clomid and arimidex and brought them up to 895 in 6 weeks, and they stayed there for about a year.

however, later on I was dabbling with DHEA in raising my E2 (which was very low), and my T numbers are back down now, even tho I ran a PCT after the DHEA.

my plan is to give enclomiphene a trial, and see how that goes.... the unfortunate thing, is it is becoming clear that I might need to stay on that long term, or transition to a convention TRT regimen.
 

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I think people are learning lower dose clomid for longer duration is best for full HPTA recovery. For example 50/50/25/25/12.5/12.5.
50 is not lower dose clomid. Why youd want to run it for that long too, is unnescessary for a PCT.
 
Hyde

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50 is not lower dose clomid. Why youd want to run it for that long too, is unnescessary for a PCT.
Depends if you're viewing it from a true PCT perspective where you try to get things humming on their own as fast as possible or viewing it more with a bridging mindset, where you're nearly always on some kinds of PEDs (3 months test, 3 months Clomid, for example).

I don't like 50mg either though. Maybe a week at that.
 

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What turns me off such a lengthy stretch (for non clinical purposes) is how long zuclomiphene can stick around in your system at non-trivial levels.
 
Ricky10

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that's a flawed study that you're referring to...

they use 150 mg/day of clomid (instead of 25 mg/day), which really indicates that high doses are unnecessary, and ultimately, counterproductive.

clomid (and possibly enclomiphene) is the most effective SERM for raising testosterone for most guys:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html
Yes, you are exactly right. Upon looking into this issue further, I discovered the same thing. The max dose should be 50/day for maybe a week and then 25/day. Anything above that is counterproductive and this is the info my prior statement turns out to be based on. Sorry, my prior reading never made reference to the inverse relationship in terms of the dosage. Glad that I looked into it further myself as I will be eager try Clomid the next time I need to run a PCT!
 
xR1pp3Rx

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50 is not lower dose clomid. Why youd want to run it for that long too, is unnescessary for a PCT.
I believe its more personalized to the individual... I aways run at least 6 weeks and William lewylln agrees that most don't pct long enough.
 

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I believe its more personalized to the individual... I aways run at least 6 weeks and William lewylln agrees that most don't pct long enough.
He also thinks nolva > clomid.

Id have to see his argument why a clomid PCT should be longer than 4 weeks.

My thinking is, if 25mg doses are insufficient at getting your HPTA cranking within two-three weeks (at which point youd start the taper), then somethings "wrong". And it isnt necessarily the clomid.

But hey I totally agree with personalisation, fwiw. BUT, if we are talking generalities and all-else-being-equals, 4wks and <25mg is going to be sufficient. At least, thats what the studies and clinical prescriptions suggest.
 
The_Old_Guy

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What turns me off such a lengthy stretch (for non clinical purposes) is how long zuclomiphene can stick around in your system at non-trivial levels.
Zuclomide, the weakly estrogenic cis-isomer?

'Super Clomid', (Androxal / Enclomiphene by Repros Therapeutics) is just Enclomiphene w/o the Zuclomide. I see no reason, other than profits (Clomid or Serophene are not FDA approved for men - has to be Off Label, which a lot of MD's won't do) for it to exist. Results aren't better as far as T goes, but if approved for men = Gold Mine $$$

Androxal Numbers:
 

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Zuclomide, the weakly estrogenic cis-isomer?

'Super Clomid', (Androxal / Enclomiphene by Repros Therapeutics) is just Enclomiphene w/o the Zuclomide. I see no reason, other than profits (Clomid or Serophene are not FDA approved for men - has to be Off Label, which a lot of MD's won't do) for it to exist. Results aren't better as far as T goes, but if approved for men = Gold Mine $$$

Androxal Numbers:
Well if you can see no reason why a 'weak estrogenic' isomer, as you put it, which has an exceptionally long half life. Floating around disrupting homeostasis isn't less superior to enclomiphene but rather a cash grab...then i don't even. But it is you after all..
 
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