Too much PCT?

SamMontgomery

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Hey guys, yet another question...

The cycle I'm planning to run (as many of you already know) is 4 weeks on-cycle, 4 weeks PCT, 4 weeks additional milk thistle, then I'll be off for a while.

ON-CYCLE (4 weeks):
M1A (20mg/day)
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro

PCT (4 weeks)
Clomid (50/50/25/25)
Milk Thistle (1,350mg/day)

ADDED (4 weeks AFTER my PCT weeks)
Milk Thistle (900mg/day)

What do you guys think of this?

1. Is it possible to take too much of the Clomid and begin to see female like side effects?
2. Any tips on this cycle/post cycle?

Thanks guys!
 
Jebrook

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Hey guys, yet another question...

The cycle I'm planning to run (as many of you already know) is 4 weeks on-cycle, 4 weeks PCT, 4 weeks additional milk thistle, then I'll be off for a while.

ON-CYCLE (4 weeks):
M1A (20mg/day)
Olympus Labs Ar1macare Pro

PCT (4 weeks)
Clomid (50/50/25/25)
Milk Thistle (1,350mg/day)

ADDED (4 weeks AFTER my PCT weeks)
Milk Thistle (900mg/day)

What do you guys think of this?

1. Is it possible to take too much of the Clomid and begin to see female like side effects?
2. Any tips on this cycle/post cycle?

Thanks guys!
The protocol you have is pretty standard. Most guys don't have noticeable sides with this protocol. 100 mg and higher is where most become highly emotional and a few even experience blurry vision at times. But the protocol you have should not have any of those effects. A plump coin purse and returning urge to shag is most likely the only side you would experience.
 

SamMontgomery

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The protocol you have is pretty standard. Most guys don't have noticeable sides with this protocol. 100 mg and higher is where most become highly emotional and a few even experience blurry vision at times. But the protocol you have should not have any of those effects. A plump coin purse and returning urge to shag is most likely the only side you would experience.
Haha ok. Thanks.
 
Ricky10

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Torem or Nolvadex are more efficient than Clomid for recovery. Choose one of those and that is all you will need. Torem in particular is what I would recommend as it is extremely effective and typically has the least side effects.
 
rascal14

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Torem or Nolvadex are more efficient than Clomid for recovery. Choose one of those and that is all you will need. Torem in particular is what I would recommend as it is extremely effective and typically has the least side effects.
Is that a joke?
 
Ricky10

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Let's just focus on Nolvadex vs Clomid as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effectively. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Nolvadex seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness. This has been known for quite some time now..
 
Ricky10

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Sam, PM me if you would like advice on your PCT. The milk thistle is also problematic as it has estrogenic effects and has been proven to essentially be worthless for liver support...
 

NewAgeMayan

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Clomid is used in trt and as a treatment for secondary....
 
Jebrook

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Let's just focus on Nolvadex vs Clomid as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effectively. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Nolvadex seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness. This has been known for quite some time now..
There has always been the Clomid vs. Nolva debate. My personal bloodwork has shown higher test levels every time using Clomid 50/50/25/25 vs. Nolva 20/20/10/10. Not majorly higher levels, but higher nonetheless. IMO both are very effective at HPTA stimulation and have their own pros and cons. Intriguing argument for Nolva though. Care to cite the scientific sources for your claims?
 
Ricky10

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One of my buds at the gym is an endocrinologist that works with women that have breast cancer, among other people with various conditions. He knows more than any of us ever could about these substances. He sent me that info in an email years ago. Never asked him for a source as I trust him due to the fact that he does this for a living.
 

NewAgeMayan

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One of my buds at the gym is an endocrinologist that works with women that have breast cancer, among other people with various conditions. He knows more than any of us ever could about these substances. He sent me that info in an email years ago. Never asked him for a source as I trust him due to the fact that he does this for a living.
Thats all good and well but his comments to you lack context here. Its kinda bit of a lame appeal to authority to justify your claims with "he knows more than any of us ever will"....been plenty of smart dudes posting good stuff about clomid in the male hrt/trt context here and all over the net, so who wins?
 
Ricky10

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Yup. Both can certainly benefit you in PCT but Nolvadex just offers a more complete recovery of the HPTA for the above reasons. When it comes down to it though, use what you think is best for you as everyone has their own unique body chemistry.
 

sespress

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There has always been the Clomid vs. Nolva debate. My personal bloodwork has shown higher test levels every time using Clomid 50/50/25/25 vs. Nolva 20/20/10/10. Not majorly higher levels, but higher nonetheless. IMO both are very effective at HPTA stimulation and have their own pros and cons. Intriguing argument for Nolva though. Care to cite the scientific sources for your claims?
I'm going to chime in on the dose mg argument. So the mg vs. mg argument is not valid on any drug. For instance. People dose tylenol at nearly a gram all the time, but some people use Aleve in the sub half gram levels with better results. Some still prefer tylenol. That's just an example and perhaps a poor one but it's a common example.

The idea that a drug is more effective because it is used at lower milligrams just isn't true. Is it more effective by weight? Sure, but receptor binding affinity, liver enzyme pathway and drug half-life are really more important than the dose. Is it more effective even after being dosed at the recommended mg/kg level the lab that made it lists? Are mushrooms more effective than LSD considering the active dose is like 2mg in a mushroom and like 150mcg for acid? No not at all, they're apples and oranges.

The question you want: "Is this drug MORE effective than this other drug when I dose both at the set dosages".

You can always look at upping the dose of the less effective drug, but you run closer to the OD level, strain the liver more (and perhaps that effect nullifies any benefit to increasing the dose vs taking another drug), and generally it runs contrary to the medical research done by the labs.


Another huge consideration to that, "can the user handle the sides at this dose of whatever drug"? If yes great! If no then perhaps the slightly less effective drug is actually better (again at the recommended dose).

Finally if you have taken both compounds, neither work great but you've already maxed the recommended dose you can ask "can I stack it with the other at a reduced dose for both". This works great with a lot of things (I have done Nolva and clomid this PCT at 12.5/12.5 each with no sides from either) and terrible at other combinations that would just compete over receptors. Some drugs can act synergistically, actually amplifying the effects of both at much lower doses.

This concept leads people to take way less or way more of a compound than they should. Every drug has an acute OD level, and a chronic abuse level. That level is different in mg/kg for every drug! Some drugs are closer to that level at the recommended dose than others. And that's not necessarily proportionally closer or further away.

There has to be a thousand compounds out there that dose higher than others and are either more or less effective than drugs dosed at different levels. Realistically the drug is produced to elicit an effect, once it's shown to do that they work out how much you need to take to get that effect. Then the dose is set. The weight vs effectiveness ratio (if you will) is meaningless if you can take some drugs in the gram level and others in the microgram level and get the listed effect. Think trying to take a methyl substance rated at 15mg in the range of a non methy 500mg+ level. But if they're both effective at the respective levels, if both binds to androgen receptors, which is more "effective"? You gotta consider all that other stuff, sides, total dose vs actual effect, half life, load on the liver, etc..
 

ericos_bob

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It's never a bad idea to run a SERM before you actually need it for any first time cycles. I tried nolva before my first cycle. Didn't want to find out how I react to a SERM whe PCT rolls round. I've only ever run Nolvadex. Only sides I get from Nolva is smelly urine (smells like chicken) It does have its advantage over Clomid for on cycle estrogen control. Clomid is unbelievably cheap by comparison so I may throw it in for my next PCT alongside Nolva.
 

sespress

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It's never a bad idea to run a SERM before you actually need it for any first time cycles. I tried nolva before my first cycle. Didn't want to find out how I react to a SERM whe PCT rolls round. I've only ever run Nolvadex. Only sides I get from Nolva is smelly urine (smells like chicken) It does have its advantage over Clomid for on cycle estrogen control. Clomid is unbelievably cheap by comparison so I may throw it in for my next PCT alongside Nolva.
Where are you getting this advantage information from? Only thing I've been able to find conclusive info on was Nolva liver toxicity numbers versus clomid... Which didn't seem bad enough to cause me or anyone to exclude It.

I'm running both at low dose to minimize any sides after I started with clomid at a high dose, went to Nolva and realized I didn't have enough. I'm preferring the split dose a lot to my last PCT of clomid only.

But stick a link or at least a site name to where your getting this estrogen advantage. The rest of us are interested and you should share with everyone.
 

uprightrows

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Another vote for clomid. It definitely gives me a faster and more complete recovery, with several bloods to verify. Also, it has the added bonus of not lowering IGF-1 levels, unlike nolvadex, which most certainly does, and to me that's very important during PCT when trying to retain gains. Also, I'm not gyno prone, so nolva might have an edge in prevention there, although you will probably rebound if you come off without an AI since nolvadex does nothing to actually lower circulating e2 levels.
 

sespress

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Another vote for clomid. It definitely gives me a faster and more complete recovery, with several bloods to verify. Also, it has the added bonus of not lowering IGF-1 levels, unlike nolvadex, which most certainly does, and to me that's very important during PCT when trying to retain gains. Also, I'm not gyno prone, so nolva might have an edge in prevention there, although you will probably rebound if you come off without an AI since nolvadex does nothing to actually lower circulating e2 levels.
Does it? Because I did a quicky Google search and found this:

"IGF-1, IGF-BP3, and IGF-BP1 concentrations were not significantly different in cases and controls. Tamoxifen treatment significantly increased IGF-BP1 after 18 and 27 months"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1187087/

And then I found THIS which says the opposite:

Tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, significantly reduced IGF-I levels by 25 ± 6% (P < 0.01) and increased SHBG levels by 20 ± 7% (P < 0.05) at the higher therapeutic dose. There was a nonstatistically significant trend toward a reduction in the GH response to arginine with both SERMs. Both drugs significantly increased LH, FSH, and testosterone concentrations. The mean increase in testosterone (40 vs. 25%; P < 0.05) and LH (70 vs. 30%; P < 0.01) was significantly greater with tamoxifen than with raloxifene treatment.


http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2010-1477

As far as I can tell the difference is how the experiment was setup, mostly in the time the drug was given and at what dose.

My point is we need to be careful what were saying with the SERMs bc they're not always clear cut. There's research that provides both answers.

I happen to prefer the split dose between both drugs juuuust to cover all bases because everytime I look this stuff up...I get conflicting results and this is from real scientists.
 

seansayin

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Would it just be safer to use both Nolva 20/20/10/10 AND clomid 50/50/25/25 for PCT? for the best of both worlds?

I've personally only ran clomid in the past for PCT, but was considering running nova on top as well..
 

NewAgeMayan

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Safer...in what respect?

If youve had a "normal" cycle, clomid alone will be sufficient.
 

sespress

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Would it just be safer to use both Nolva 20/20/10/10 AND clomid 50/50/25/25 for PCT? for the best of both worlds?

I've personally only ran clomid in the past for PCT, but was considering running nova on top as well..
I wouldn't do both at that dose. You can pick one I'm just going on about the scientific differences. I've done Nolva on its own before. You'll be fine picking either imo. Sorry I derailed your post man!
 
Woody

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Clomid is fine, Sam.... Clomid is used in TRT and will restart your HPTA better and quicker than Nolva IMO.

The only change I would make is sub NAC for your milk thistle. Swanson NAC will be fine.
 

SamMontgomery

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Clomid is fine, Sam.... Clomid is used in TRT and will restart your HPTA better and quicker than Nolva IMO.

The only change I would make is sub NAC for your milk thistle. Swanson NAC will be fine.
How many mg of NAC would you take during my PCT?
 

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