Help with ingredients

[SamMontgomery]

I'm looking into running Complete Nutrition's stack of their "HardcoreBULK" with ATS Labs' "SpawnV2" and then Complete Nutrition's PCT called "HardcorePOST"

I'm very new to ingredients and Prohormones, so I need some help... First, the ingredients are as follows:

HardcoreBULK:
Methyl-1-Etiocholenol-Epietiocholanolove (20mg), N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine, Milk Thistle (80% silymarin), TUDCA, Tongkat Ali (long jack)

SpawnV2:
1500mg of... Aurantii nobilis percicapium extract, arachidonic acid, ctlycyrhizae radix, atraclylodis lanceae rhizome, hesperidin, stinging nettle extract, boron citrate (5% boron), zingiber officinale, ZR-2-Methylamino, butanedioic

HardcorePOST:
600mg of... Mucuna puriens, milk thistle, N-Acetyl cysteine, adrost 3,5-diene-7 17 dione

I'd run HardcoreBULK and SpawnV2 in conjunction and then after those are complete, run HardcorePOST. What are your thoughts? Does this look like a good stack?

I know these products aren't' FDA approved so at the end of the day, I understand that I could be taking in something not listed here. But for sake of conversation (unless you have experience with these and know other ingredients in these) lets just assume this is really all that's in them.

Thanks for the help!

 

[mike33511]

I don't know, man. If you want to run a natty anabolic, I would go with something proven like SNS X Gels (arachidonic acid), OL Triumph or soy lecithin granules (both phosphatidic acid).

 

[Woody]

Hardcore is a prohormone. That looks like M1A which is harsh as **** especially for a firs or second cycle. That PCT is a joke for something like M1A. That's like peeing on a forest fire.

Spawn looks like a prop blend of some decent stuff but it's probably all underdosed given the 1500mg.
What's the price point and how many servings?
You could get two months of ArA from SNS for $60 and add Origin by OL and be way better off IMO

 

[Jebrook]

I'm looking into running Complete Nutrition's stack of their "HardcoreBULK" with ATS Labs' "SpawnV2" and then Complete Nutrition's PCT called "HardcorePOST"

I'm very new to ingredients and Prohormones, so I need some help... First, the ingredients are as follows:

HardcoreBULK:
Methyl-1-Etiocholenol-Epietiocholanolove (20mg), N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine, Milk Thistle (80% silymarin), TUDCA, Tongkat Ali (long jack)

SpawnV2:
1500mg of... Aurantii nobilis percicapium extract, arachidonic acid, ctlycyrhizae radix, atraclylodis lanceae rhizome, hesperidin, stinging nettle extract, boron citrate (5% boron), zingiber officinale, ZR-2-Methylamino, butanedioic

HardcorePOST:
600mg of... Mucuna puriens, milk thistle, N-Acetyl cysteine, adrost 3,5-diene-7 17 dione

I'd run HardcoreBULK and SpawnV2 in conjunction and then after those are complete, run HardcorePOST. What are your thoughts? Does this look like a good stack?

I know these products aren't' FDA approved so at the end of the day, I understand that I could be taking in something not listed here. But for sake of conversation (unless you have experience with these and know other ingredients in these) lets just assume this is really all that's in them.

Thanks for the help!

Hardcore bulk is M1A. It's a prohormone to M1T. It is not for a beginner at all. Highly liver toxic and very damaging to the health markers. The 2nd product is just a natty product with various things in a prop blend. At first glance it looks like a jumble of stuff tossed in a pot. I don't see what purpose it would serve on cycle without researching more. The 3rd product contains Mucuna, NAC, milk thistle, and Arimistane. Those are okay ingredients but leaves a lot to be desired for an effective PCT addition. Not to mention that at only 600 mg most ingredients in it are woefully underdosed. Same can be said for the liver protection in the hardcorebulk. I guarantee it's only there as label dressing and not nearly enough to protect from the damaging effects of M1A. Also, no SERM=No cycle. That OTC product is not nearly enough to recover properly and maintain gains made.

 

[Jebrook]

Woody you beat me to the punch.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Wow.... very informative! Thank you guys! Some of you have thrown a few names out there of products, but what would be "technically" not a prohormone or steroid, but still VERY effective? I'm 194 right now with 18.5% body fat looking to get over 200 lbs and lower my body fat. Any suggestions?

 

[Woody]

Wow.... very informative! Thank you guys! Some of you have thrown a few names out there of products, but what would be "technically" not a prohormone or steroid, but still VERY effective? I'm 194 right now with 18.5% body fat looking to get over 200 lbs and lower my body fat. Any suggestions?

X-Gels is a solid natty product. It induces inflammation to help growth. Stacking with something like Triumph will give you your all-in-one goodies and further effectiveness while giving ergogenic benefits on its own

Origin is also natty. Helps with appetite, digestion, recovery, increased strength, etc. You should be able to lean out while getting stronger.

Depending on your diet, Forskolin can help you lean out too. Wouldn't particularly run it on a bulk but others have with good results.

A test booster could also help, especially if you're older. Testify is pretty well rounded hitting total test, free test, estrogen, etc. Alternatively, if you're older Super-DHEA could really help your energy, lidido, well being, etc. it's not technically a prohormone but it kind of is lol

 

[Woody]

Woody you beat me to the punch.

Sorry old man. Ya snooze ya lose

 

[Jebrook]

Wow.... very informative! Thank you guys! Some of you have thrown a few names out there of products, but what would be "technically" not a prohormone or steroid, but still VERY effective? I'm 194 right now with 18.5% body fat looking to get over 200 lbs and lower my body fat. Any suggestions?

Arachadonic Acid(X-gels)
Phosphatidic Acid(Tr1umph)
GH Booster(Orig1n)
(-)-Epicatechin(Epic Unleashed)
Laxogenin(Strength Unleashed)

These are all natty products with great reviews and consistent results for improving strength and composition. There's lots of other products and categories but these are some very popular ones around here. Do yourself a favor and avoid complete nutrition. They don't have a clue and their products by and large are overpriced, underdosed, and poorly formulated. Hang around AM and you will find tons of info, firsthand experience/knowledge, and an inside track to finding the cheapest and most effective supplements.

 

[Jebrook]

Sorry old man. Ya snooze ya lose

You may be younger and faster Woody but I'm older and wiser= Smartah...I think...

 

[SamMontgomery]

X-Gels is a solid natty product. It induces inflammation to help growth. Stacking with something like Triumph will give you your all-in-one goodies and further effectiveness while giving ergogenic benefits on its own

Origin is also natty. Helps with appetite, digestion, recovery, increased strength, etc. You should be able to lean out while getting stronger.

Depending on your diet, Forskolin can help you lean out too. Wouldn't particularly run it on a bulk but others have with good results.

A test booster could also help, especially if you're older. Testify is pretty well rounded hitting total test, free test, estrogen, etc. Alternatively, if you're older Super-DHEA could really help your energy, lidido, well being, etc. it's not technically a prohormone but it kind of is lol

Thank you Woody and Jebrook for all the information! Let's hear more about this Super-DHEA. If it's "technically" not a prohormone, I can "technically" tell my wife that I'm not running prohormones! I like it! Can you please provide a little additional information on it? If you need my stats, I'm 23, have a very clean 6,000/day calorie diet and have been gaining 0.75 - 1 lbs a week on that diet. Would any additional information from me help?

 

[Jebrook]

Thank you Woody and Jebrook for all the information! Let's hear more about this Super-DHEA. If it's "technically" not a prohormone, I can "technically" tell my wife that I'm not running prohormones! I like it! Can you please provide a little additional information on it? If you need my stats, I'm 23, have a very clean 6,000/day calorie diet and have been gaining 0.75 - 1 lbs a week on that diet. Would any additional information from me help?

Here's some info:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/olympus-uk/284952-sup3r-dhea-q.html

Also, check out the sites for complete write ups on everything OL and OL UK make. You can hit me up anytime for questions about anything. My fave supp site is Nutriverse other than when OL has crazy sales.
http://olympus-labs.com/

http://olympusuk.com/

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

Arachadonic Acid(X-gels)
Phosphatidic Acid(Tr1umph)
GH Booster(Orig1n)
(-)-Epicatechin(Epic Unleashed)
Laxogenin(Strength Unleashed)

These are all natty products with great reviews and consistent results for improving strength and composition. There's lots of other products and categories but these are some very popular ones around here. Do yourself a favor and avoid complete nutrition. They don't have a clue and their products by and large are overpriced, underdosed, and poorly formulated. Hang around AM and you will find tons of info, firsthand experience/knowledge, and an inside track to finding the cheapest and most effective supplements.

+2 vote for epic!
Still haven't gotten a chance to run origin, will get there eventually.

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

Thank you Woody and Jebrook for all the information! Let's hear more about this Super-DHEA. If it's "technically" not a prohormone, I can "technically" tell my wife that I'm not running prohormones! I like it! Can you please provide a little additional information on it? If you need my stats, I'm 23, have a very clean 6,000/day calorie diet and have been gaining 0.75 - 1 lbs a week on that diet. Would any additional information from me help?

6000 f.... in calories? You suck! If I go over 1900, I start packing on weight!

 

[SamMontgomery]

+2 vote for epic!
Still haven't gotten a chance to run origin, will get there eventually.

br1ck_Sh1thouse what were your results and stats from running the "Epic Unleashed"?

 

[SamMontgomery]

6000 f.... in calories? You suck! If I go over 1900, I start packing on weight!

I swear man. It's actually really annoying because I see other people eating MUCH less and getting better results than me... I don't know what to do. I literally eat brown rice and chicken every 2-3 hours every single day...

 

[Jebrook]

I swear man. It's actually really annoying because I see other people eating MUCH less and getting better results than me... I don't know what to do. I literally eat brown rice and chicken every 2-3 hours every single day...

I would hate life if I had to chew cardboard and chicken that often.

 

[SamMontgomery]

I would hate life if I had to chew cardboard and chicken that often.

What do you guys eat? How do you see growth without eating so much brown rice, chicken, pork, fish, etc.?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Bro, balance...a little bit of IIFYM might actually improve your gains. Plus, what is your healthy fat intake like?

 

[Jebrook]

What do you guys eat? How do you see growth without eating so much brown rice, chicken, pork, fish, etc.?

Red meat!!!! White or long grain rice. Yams. Potatoes. Quinoa. Oats. Peanut butter. Whole milk. Eggs.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Bro, balance...a little bit of IIFYM might actually improve your gains. Plus, what is your healthy fat intake like?

I'm typically around 154 grams of fat, 700 grams of carbs and 300-350 grams of protein.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I'm typically around 154 grams of fat, 700 grams of carbs and 300-350 grams of protein.

Are those fats from omega dense food sources (nuts, avacado, evoo, etc)? I dunno, but Id prolly trade off some cho and a little pro in order to increase fat intake, for health (lipids, hormones, joints) reasons. But, only if doing so didnt result in me feeling crap and negatively affecting muscle growth.

Generally, increasing the density of your food can entail a decrease in the volume you need to eat to hit the same faily kcal total.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Are those fats from omega dense food sources (nuts, avacado, evoo, etc)? I dunno, but Id prolly trade off some cho and a little pro in order to increase fat intake, for health (lipids, hormones, joints) reasons. But, only if doing so didnt result in me feeling crap and negatively affecting muscle growth.

Generally, increasing the density of your food can entail a decrease in the volume you need to eat to hit the same faily kcal total.

Those fats come from whey protein, whole milk (sometimes 2% milk), rice, chicken and cheese. I've gotten into the habit of eating literally the same thing ever day. It's not bad tasting and I know I'll hit that 6,000 calorie mark. Are these not good fats?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Those fats come from whey protein, whole milk (sometimes 2% milk), rice, chicken and cheese. I've gotten into the habit of eating literally the same thing ever day. It's not bad tasting and I know I'll hit that 6,000 calorie mark. Are these not good fats?

If youre happy doing what youre doing, and what youre doing is not negatively impacting health (have you had a lipid and hormone blood test done recently?), far be it from me to judge and say you doin it wrong brah.

Personally, I think your healthy fat intake appears inadequate, based on what youve told us. But, again, if your health markers are fine and you have no detrimental symptoms then stick with what youre doing.

 

[Woody]

br1ck_Sh1thouse what were your results and stats from running the "Epic Unleashed"?

I noticed better endurance, recovery, and a lot of sweating.

 

[SamMontgomery]

If youre happy doing what youre doing, and what youre doing is not negatively impacting health (have you had a lipid and hormone blood test done recently?), far be it from me to judge and say you doin it wrong brah.

Personally, I think your healthy fat intake appears inadequate, based on what youve told us. But, again, if your health markers are fine and you have no detrimental symptoms then stick with what youre doing.

Well that's the thing. I've been happy with it (slowly increasing caloric intake each week based on my rate of weight gain starting at 3,500 calories and now I'm at 6,000) for the 5 months I've been doing it, but it's getting old to be honest. My brother-in law is a personal trainer (natural, no PH or steroids) and he eats a fraction of what I eat, but he's bigger than I am... Also, it's getting expensive... My wife and I have no kids and we spend about $200/month just in groceries...

I haven't had a test done recently - maybe a good idea.

 

[SamMontgomery]

I noticed better endurance, recovery, and a lot of sweating.

What was your weight gain/muscle size gain with it? Did you drop any body fat percentage?

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

br1ck_Sh1thouse what were your results and stats from running the "Epic Unleashed"?

So I have no hard numbers for you other than my calories which were 1600. I actually just finished my last bottle, I've been in cut mode and in the last month I managed to finally shave off 7 lbs of pretty much straight up fat (based on caliper readings) what was great is that I lost zero strength even running that low on calories. I'm currently 238lbs @ approximately 20%bf. I'm going to coast this month at 1750 calories and then get ready to do an experimental cut/recomp using a boatload of OL stuff.

For the record (Jebrook, NAM and GNO, cover your ears) I decided to give follidrone 2 a try, everybody raves about it so much I had to try it. Assuming I get the same results from it as epic, I'll switch because I can get epic on sale at a better price! Gotta love the OL sales!

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

I swear man. It's actually really annoying because I see other people eating MUCH less and getting better results than me... I don't know what to do. I literally eat brown rice and chicken every 2-3 hours every single day...

Have you tried /considered going keto? For me it's the easiest way to clean bulk and cut. Carbs just turn me into the Pillsbury dough boy.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Have you tried /considered going keto? For me it's the easiest way to clean bulk and cut. Carbs just turn me into the Pillsbury dough boy.

I haven't tried that. Typically carbs have the same effect on me, Pillsbury Dough Boy's older, fatter brother! But eating these complex carbs from brown rice has kept me from breaking the 19% body fat mark.

 

[Jebrook]

Well that's the thing. I've been happy with it (slowly increasing caloric intake each week based on my rate of weight gain starting at 3,500 calories and now I'm at 6,000) for the 5 months I've been doing it, but it's getting old to be honest. My brother-in law is a personal trainer (natural, no PH or steroids) and he eats a fraction of what I eat, but he's bigger than I am... Also, it's getting expensive... My wife and I have no kids and we spend about $200/month just in groceries...

I haven't had a test done recently - maybe a good idea.

If what you've been doing is working then that's great. If results are starting to slow or the diet is unsustainable then look into either adding/changing food/calorie sources or restructuring your macros or changing to a different diet plan altogether. There's a ton of option for successful dieting plans. Certain body types respond better to specific types of diets than others. Intermittent fasting and ketosis diets used to work really well for me as I used to have an ecto/endo body type. Now that I've developed more of an ecto/meso bodytype I don't need as extreme dieting to gain mass or lose fat. More the plain old traditional surplus/deficit dieting suffices these days. Just some food for thought. There's about a million ways to skin a cat. Just find what works for you and discard or move on from what doesn't.

 

[Jebrook]

So I have no hard numbers for you other than my calories which were 1600. I actually just finished my last bottle, I've been in cut mode and in the last month I managed to finally shave off 7 lbs of pretty much straight up fat (based on caliper readings) what was great is that I lost zero strength even running that low on calories. I'm currently 238lbs @ approximately 20%bf. I'm going to coast this month at 1750 calories and then get ready to do an experimental cut/recomp using a boatload of OL stuff.

For the record (Jebrook, NAM and GNO, cover your ears) I decided to give follidrone 2 a try, everybody raves about it so much I had to try it. Assuming I get the same results from it as epic, I'll switch because I can get epic on sale at a better price! Gotta love the OL sales!

No hate here brother. Give it a shot. I always look for the next best thing to progress towards my goals and I experiment with lots of different brands and categories of supps. Coincidentally, OL doesn't rest on it's achievements either. We're always looking to improve and further innovate our lineup:bigok:

 

[SamMontgomery]

No hate here brother. Give it a shot. I always look for the next best thing to progress towards my goals and I experiment with lots of different brands and categories of supps. Coincidentally, OL doesn't rest on it's acchievements either. We're always looking to improve and further innovate:bigok:

I'm going to reveal how unknowledgeable I am... what is OL?

 

[Jebrook]

I'm going to reveal how unknowledgeable I am... what is OL?

Olympus Labs and Olympus UK. It is one of the many supplement companies that sponsor this board and the company I represent as a product specialist.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Olympus Labs and Olympus UK. It is one of the many supplement companies that sponsor this board and the company I represent as a product specialist.

Oh ok. I've got a question for you guys. Is a supplement that produces Human Growth Hormone, a prohormone?

 

[Jebrook]

Oh ok. I've got a question for you guys. Is a supplement that produces Human Growth Hormone, a prohormone?

Short answer is no. A prohormone is a compound that converts into an anabolic or androgenic steroids after ingestion.

 

[SamMontgomery]

Short answer is no. A prohormone is a compound that converts into an anabolic or androgenic steroids after ingestion.

Ok. How effective is a supplement that produces HGH compared to a Prohormone when you talk about gaining muscle size?

 

[Jebrook]

Ok. How effective is a supplement that produces HGH compared to a Prohormone when you talk about gaining muscle size?

AAS/PH/DS is generally faster and more extreme results wise. Both types of hormones can produce extreme growth but through much different pathways, each with it's own set of serious risks as well as benefits.

 

[SamMontgomery]

AAS/PH/DS is generally stronger/faster and more extreme results wise. Both types of hormones can help a body grow but through much different pathways.

Sounds like I've got some research to do. Thanks for your help. I'll do some research and probably post another question in the future.

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

No hate here brother. Give it a shot. I always look for the next best thing to progress towards my goals and I experiment with lots of different brands and categories of supps. Coincidentally, OL doesn't rest on it's achievements either. We're always looking to improve and further innovate our lineup:bigok:

If you guys ever want a guinea pig for stuff in development I will gladly be a test subject so long as I'm not right in the middle of a planned run.

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

Sounds like I've got some research to do. Thanks for your help. I'll do some research and probably post another question in the future.

Be careful of SARMS being called supplements, they are not just supplements, they are in the same bucket as PHs.
And then there's peptides and various other things like cardarine which are called sarms but are in a class of their own.

 

[ryane87]

I would hate life if I had to chew cardboard and chicken that often.

When you said cardboard, I thought you referring to the chicken.....grilled chicken on a Foreman brings back nightmares...lol

 

[Jebrook]

When you said cardboard, I thought you referring to the chicken.....grilled chicken on a Foreman brings back nightmares...lol

Chicken gets real old after a week or two but brown rice is the worst. Pretty sure it is a hybrid grain engineered by some diabolical sadist genius. A single serving instantly ruins my month...

 

[ryane87]

Chicken gets real old after a week or two but brown rice is the worst. Pretty sure it is a hybrid grain engineered by some diabolical sadist genius. A single serving instantly ruins my month...

Some heavy, heavy brown rice hate there....LOL

 

[ChocolateClen]

Chicken gets real old after a week or two but brown rice is the worst. Pretty sure it is a hybrid grain engineered by some diabolical sadist genius. A single serving instantly ruins my month...

This^^^^ this is why I love couscous so much. Cause it's deferent than rice and it's not ****ing brown rice