Least suppressive SARM or PH

[drejb]

Hey guys.

Just doing my research here. Getting some info together.

Wanting to potentially take things to the next level in a few months. Would love to gain maybe 10lbs of mass while staying lean

I've never used PH / SARM / AAS Before. I used M1T as a dumb 18 year old given to me by a buddy for 2 weeks but had no idea what I was doing

My question is.

What is the best product to dip into, with the least side effects that is the least suppressive that I can run for 6 weeks, with no PCT or just a basic SERM run and AI for a couple weeks?

Forgive me if this is asking too much

I've read about LGD, the Andros, MKs

I also have access to Anavar. But I hear there should be a test base. I hear people calling products like SUperDHEA a test base. Am I completely off to say to stack the two?

Forgive the ignorance, would love to learn

Stats

27 years old
5'11
198lb
Been training since 15

Cheers

 

[Woody]

You should run a PCT with any suppressive PH, SARM, or AAS. Clomid/Nolva would be fine.

1-Andro is probably the mildest out there ATM. PH now are way milder than 10 years ago when you took M1T.

Super-1 with Super-Epi/Super-4/Super-DHEA will be a nice starting point. Epi/4/DHEA will serve as a test base.
Higher dose Epiandro will help you stay lean.

 

[drejb]

You should run a PCT with any suppressive PH, SARM, or AAS. Clomid/Nolva would be fine.

1-Andro is probably the mildest out there ATM. PH now are way milder than 10 years ago when you took M1T.

Super-1 with Super-Epi/Super-4/Super-DHEA will be a nice starting point. Epi/4/DHEA will serve as a test base.
Higher dose Epiandro will help you stay lean.

So you'd say PH vs SARM based on least sides, least suppressive? Or both?

Would a 6 week run / 4 week clomid + alphamax XT be sufficient?

Any preferred brands/product?

Appreciate the reply

 

[drejb]

I am also reading everywhere that prohormones are highly suppressive and toxic with less keepable gains compared to a SARM. These are posts dated in 2016 with a quick google search from other forums. Is there any truth behind this?

Cheers

 

[sespress]

I am also reading everywhere that prohormones are highly suppressive and toxic with less keepable gains compared to a SARM. These are posts dated in 2016 with a quick google search from other forums. Is there any truth behind this?

Cheers

I dunno I've heard Ostarine is pretty suppressive. SARMS are also kind of new. There's a lot of anecdotal information and medical information on how to handle the PH's and their sides.

 

[yates84]

Var would be my choice, hpta impact is very low and results are great. I would still pct with a serm

 

[The_Old_Guy]

If it occupies the Androgen Receptor, your body will see that it doesn't need to produce Testosterone. The message boards are full of crazy talk in regards to suppression, IMO. "Oh, Ostarine is mild" (say the bros who didn't run blood-work)... when in reality it suppressed at 3mg in trials and "we" are taking 15-30mg...

Why worry about degrees of suppression anyway? (and while not an expert, I would say if something only suppressed "a little bit" - it sucks. Why aren't more of my receptors being bound? I want my money back ) ***Edit: I see Yates proved me wrong, LOL *** Just PCT with a SERM. You can't have it both ways - it either works and suppresses, or it doesn't work and doesn't suppress. And if you are going to suppress at all, mind as well go all in.

I'd be more worried about Alkylated or Methylated orals, than 2 step DHEAs temporarily suppressing Testosterone for 8 weeks. SARMs are another story - they are experimental - we could all die in 10 years from using them Suppression is the least of the worries there too.

 

[also76]

yates84 how would you cycle var ? Would epiandro be a sufficient base with it ? Don't mean to hijack post sorry bruh

 

[yates84]

If it occupies the Androgen Receptor, your body will see that it doesn't need to produce Testosterone. The message boards are full of crazy talk in regards to suppression, IMO. "Oh, Ostarine is mild" (say the bros who didn't run blood-work)... when in reality it suppressed at 3mg in trials and "we" are taking 15-30mg...

Why worry about degrees of suppression anyway? (and while not an expert, I would say if something only suppressed "a little bit" - it sucks. Why aren't more of my receptors being bound? I want my money back ) ***Edit: I see Yates proved me wrong, LOL *** Just PCT with a SERM. You can't have it both ways - it either works and suppresses, or it doesn't work and doesn't suppress. And if you are going to suppress at all, mind as well go all in.

I'd be more worried about Alkylated or Methylated orals, than 2 step DHEAs temporarily suppressing Testosterone for 8 weeks. SARMs are another story - they are experimental - we could all die in 10 years from using them Suppression is the least of the worries there too.

I could not agree more with your opening statement, anything that interacts with the androgen receptors is going to cause negative feedback in the hpta therefore reducing testosterone production. There are way too many variables, especially person to person, to say what kind of impact a certain steroid will have as far as the degree of suppression is concerned.

 

[yates84]

yates84 how would you cycle var ? Would epiandro be a sufficient base with it ? Don't mean to hijack post sorry bruh

It really really depends on the quality of the var. No test base needed imo

 

[Dragoninho]

It really really depends on the quality of the var. No test base needed imo

I agree with Yates about Var... I used it for my very first cycle.. And 2th, and 3th and.. You get the point.

BUT. I would use something alongside it, Dermacrine or the new Super-dhea is very pleasing and would be a nice run with a pretty easy recovery during PCT.
With Epiandro/Androsterone to this is a REALLY nice stack, but maybe not for your first run.

Moderate dose Serm and maybe a OTC pct product of choice and you are golden.

This is my personal prefernce or course, a Var only cycle isn't wrong, but with something light (as stated)
to it you could get away from some lethargy, low libido and just have a better experience.

 

[ChocolateClen]

1 or 4 andro, or epistane if you can get ahold of that. Stay away from dmz or msten

 

[sespress]

1 or 4 andro, or epistane if you can get ahold of that. Stay away from dmz or msten

Yeah those are the harsher ones I hear. I'm running 4/Epi-Andro and bloods for liver only just done are all good. I'm also using cycle support. I think you'd better do that regardless of what you run.

 

[yates84]

Epistane = dmz mg to mg in terms of toxicity and hpta impact imo. Both are sweet around 40mg for 6 weeks and roughly the same results can be expected from either. Epi is just drier due to it being a DHT derivative but this also means there is a larger chance for estrogen rebound. Both are a great second cycle, first cycle if you feel like jumping head first into the deep end.

 

[ChocolateClen]

Epistane = dmz mg to mg in terms of toxicity and hpta impact imo. Both are sweet around 40mg for 6 weeks and roughly the same results can be expected from either. Epi is just drier due to it being a DHT derivative but this also means there is a larger chance for estrogen rebound. Both are a great second cycle, first cycle if you feel like jumping head first into the deep end.

I thought Epi had less sides overall and was a much safer compound if not abused.

 

[yates84]

I thought Epi had less sides overall and was a much safer compound if not abused.

I dont think so. Actual dmz is pretty mild. A lot of dmz back in the day was "dirty" and contained a decent amount of superdrol and this would greatly increase side effect potential. Once again, it really depends on the quality of the product. Did you know that dmz was actually once a prescription drug in Europe? That's something to think about.

 

[xGetxLeanX]

Yates is full of the knowledge

 

[double s]

The million dollar question....what is the goal? Bulk? Lean out, what exactly?

If you go Sarms, Ostarine is excellent for putting on lean muscle, if you want to bulk nicely go with LGD. Regardless, you should use a PCT of Nolva or Clomid. It is certainly worth the extra $25 for a 30 day run...why risk anything. if you want to add an additional OTC PCT, Rise and Swell is very popular, it is DAA based.

Regardless of what you do, continue to research which it sounds like you have been doing.

 

[gagandugan]

Ostarine->1-Andro->Anavar?

Quick edit: to clarify, these are, IMO, the least suppressive popular SARM/Prohormone/Steroid(s).

 

[drock77]

Ostarine is suppressive if ran 4 weeks or more I always run Ostarine in my PCT 4 weeks only anything after is suppressing

 

[mmorso]

Ostarine is suppressive if ran 4 weeks or more I always run Ostarine in my PCT 4 weeks only anything after is suppressing

You run it osta in PCT? When your recovering from being suppressed you take ostarine?

 

[drejb]

The million dollar question....what is the goal? Bulk? Lean out, what exactly?

If you go Sarms, Ostarine is excellent for putting on lean muscle, if you want to bulk nicely go with LGD. Regardless, you should use a PCT of Nolva or Clomid. It is certainly worth the extra $25 for a 30 day run...why risk anything. if you want to add an additional OTC PCT, Rise and Swell is very popular, it is DAA based.

Regardless of what you do, continue to research which it sounds like you have been doing.

Thanks for the response dude. Much appreciated

As stated in the original post I'd like to gain around 10lb while staying relatively lean

Cheers!

 

[Bunshichi]

I dont think so. Actual dmz is pretty mild. A lot of dmz back in the day was "dirty" and contained a decent amount of superdrol and this would greatly increase side effect potential. Once again, it really depends on the quality of the product. Did you know that dmz was actually once a prescription drug in Europe? That's something to think about.

As was Halotestin and even the purest Fluoxymesterone is not mild at all.

I don't mean you are wrong with Epistane=DMZ however. I do not really believe thats the case but up until now I have no experience with DMZ and my knowledge on this one is limited as well.
Might have to research a little now however.

 

[mmorso]

Thanks for the response dude. Much appreciated

As stated in the original post I'd like to gain around 10lb while staying relatively lean

Cheers!

Honestly, if your going to take any SARM or PH you will get suppressed to a certain degree and will need to PCT with a SERM...

With that said, why do you care how suppressive a particular compound is? You should get back to normal with a proper PCT even if you ran a more suppressive compound. Then the logic seems to be, go big or go home right? Take a compound that will help you accomplish your goal... and PCT with a SERM!!!

 

[Bunshichi]

Honestly, if your going to take any SARM or PH you will get suppressed to a certain degree and will need to PCT with a SERM...

With that said, why do you care how suppressive a particular compound is? You should get back to normal with a proper PCT even if you ran a more suppressive compound. Then the logic seems to be, go big or go home right? Take a compound that will help you accomplish your goal... and PCT with a SERM!!!

PCT with a !!!SERM!!!!
Guess its a typo

 

[mmorso]

PCT with a !!!SERM!!!!
Guess its a typo

Yeah I corrected that bro

 

[drock77]

mmorso yes ostarine don't suppress until 5 week I've had blood work done twice during my PCT beginning and end I've was a 100% after PCT

 

[ChocolateClen]

mmorso yes ostarine don't suppress until 5 week I've had blood work done twice during my PCT beginning and end I've was a 100% after PCT

Maybe you're just lucky then mate cause I've seen bloods that show osta suppressing some people after a week.

I'd never tell someone to run it during PCT that's just playing with fire imo

 

[drock77]

Maybe

 

[mmorso]

mmorso yes ostarine don't suppress until 5 week I've had blood work done twice during my PCT beginning and end I've was a 100% after PCT

Well ya can't argue with blood work lol... that seems counter-intuitive to me though. I'd never touch anything that can cause suppression in PCT, even if it takes 5 wks, but more power to ya brother..

Ya run osta for the anti-catabolic properties or what? I'm about to get on some Clen for that

 

[mmorso]

Maybe you're just lucky then mate cause I've seen bloods that show osta suppressing some people after a week.

I'd never tell someone to run it during PCT that's just playing with fire imo

I'm with ChocolateClen on this..

 

[drock77]

I ran it at a low dosage like 20mg a day and I was fine my test was on point even in some OTC PCT PCTs they has like 25mg

 

[mmorso]

Sounds like sarms1 bullsh1t man but who knows. 20mg isn't a low dose from what I've read... 5mg can and will suppress you.. maybe I'm wrong here

 

[mmorso]

I ran it at a low dosage like 20mg a day and I was fine my test was on point even in some OTC PCT PCTs they has like 25mg

Btw.. why do you run it in PCT anyway?

 

[Cs1992]

Ran 30mg for 8 weeks
Total test went from 950 to 200

So yeah definitely not suppressive at all haha

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So who hasn't read the study?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3177038/

In men, no statistically significant differences from placebo in change from baseline values for free testosterone, DHT, estradiol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), or LH were observed at any GTx-024 dose.However, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) was significantly (P = 0.048) reduced with GTx-024 3 mg versus placebo, −15.8 ± 7.9 nmol/L. The decrease in SHBG was accompanied by a reduction of serum total testosterone in subjects treated with 1 mg (P < 0.001) or 3 mg (P < 0.001) of GTx-024 compared to placebo, −6.4 ± 1.1 nmol/L and −7.4 ± 1.0 (Table 5).

 

[drock77]

Lol I've heard the same thing about 5mg can be suppressing I use ostarine and my PCT to keep all my gains I might lose 1 or 2 pounds but before I would lose like 5 to 8 pound using just nolvadex and Clomid I feel ostarine preserves more muscle IMO

 

[Cs1992]

Lol I've heard the same thing about 5mg can be suppressing I use ostarine and my PCT to keep all my gains I might lose 1 or 2 pounds but before I would lose like 5 to 8 pound using just nolvadex and Clomid I feel ostarine preserves more muscle IMO

I think lose dose ostarine should be used for 2 weeks after (during PCT) but make pct 6 weeks

 

[mmorso]

The_Old_Guy... what dose a decrease in SHBG result in? Is it decreased fertility or am I wrong?

 

[mmorso]

I think lose dose ostarine should be used for 2 weeks after (during PCT) but make pct 6 weeks

I think you guys need to look into HMB and clenbuterol... anti-catabolic and non suppressive.

Add reduce XT or Invictus with the new K1ngs Blood and those gains just weren't meant to be if ya lose them. Lol

 

[yates84]

The_Old_Guy... what dose a decrease in SHBG result in? Is it decreased fertility or am I wrong?

Shbg or sex hormone binding globulin is what controls free test. The less shbg the more free test. Total test means nothing, free test is the only test that can actually attach to androgen receptors

 

[AnabolicGuru]

1 or 4 andro, or epistane if you can get ahold of that. Stay away from dmz or msten

+1 for epistane

 

[ChocolateClen]

+1 for epistane

Epi was my first ph cycle, very mild dry hard gains

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Epi was my first ph cycle, very mild dry hard gains

I blew up on that ****

 

[drejb]

I blew up on that ****

Sides?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Sides?

Common sides would be joint pain and back pumps, but the compound is generally low on sides. The one side effect you need to be aware of though is possible estrogen rebound, so having an aromatize inhibitor on hand is always smart.

 

[xGetxLeanX]

What is HMB? Aware me plz lol

 

[jathan_howe]

Epistane = dmz mg to mg in terms of toxicity and hpta impact imo. Both are sweet around 40mg for 6 weeks and roughly the same results can be expected from either. Epi is just drier due to it being a DHT derivative but this also means there is a larger chance for estrogen rebound. Both are a great second cycle, first cycle if you feel like jumping head first into the deep end.

Since DHT derivatives are dry, and run a greater risk of estrogen rebound afterwards, would a wet hormone on cycle counteract that? For example, if someone was taking Epi-Andro and they added 4 Andro. The Epi-Andro should counter any on-cycle estrogen issues due to being dry and 4 being mild, and the 4 should lower the chance of rebound since it provided a source of (or conversion to) estrogen on-cycle, rather than outright lowering estrogen if Epi-Andro was ran solo? I just used those compounds as an easy example for my question. Am I right or way off in my assumption?

 

[mmorso]

What is HMB? Aware me plz lol

Metabolite of the amino acid leucine that prevents muscle protein breakdown... it's dirt cheap if you get bulk powder

 

[sespress]

Epistane = dmz mg to mg in terms of toxicity and hpta impact imo. Both are sweet around 40mg for 6 weeks and roughly the same results can be expected from either. Epi is just drier due to it being a DHT derivative but this also means there is a larger chance for estrogen rebound. Both are a great second cycle, first cycle if you feel like jumping head first into the deep end.

I've heard that about Epi (on it now) buuut if you have a test base in the mix (4-andro / Trest) and your not totally AI'ing to death your rebound shouldn't be too harsh... Correct?