Best prohormone for a summer beach trip?
- 05-13-2005, 09:45 AM
Best prohormone to prep for a summer beach trip?
Apologies for a really narcissistic post, but which one of these is the best to get ready for an extended summer holiday in a beach resort with 4 weeks to go (to cut, lower body fat)? I have a feeling the Superdrol or the MOHN is best, because of the dry gains. But M1t has worked well for me in the past, with decent cuts and dry gains, although I get sides after 10 days. Have not tried the Superdrol or Mohn or MethylDien yet...waiting for the right time. I tend to try to take the minimum amount/dosage possible to get gains, and everything I have tried (M1t, 19-Nor-4, 4AD) is effective so far, just the results vary. Thanks for your input, I know this is kind of a "girly" post. =)
I'm also going to take some Trimax for 3-4 weeks, low dosage.
I'm pretty lean right now (BF 9-10%).
1. M1t + 4AD stack (tried before...good results but some sides, some water retention from the 4AD)
2. M1t alone (hard to do for me alone with no 4AD, 'cause of lethargy)
2. MOHN (M4OHN) + Methyl Dien stacked
3. MOHN (M4OHN) alone
4. MethylDien alone
5. 19-Nor-4-Androstendiol + 19-Nor-4-Androstendione + 4AD stacked (great for strength, but some bloat/water retention with this combo)
6. 1t + 1,4 AD
8. Superdrol + MOHN (M4OHN)
Or, forget them all and just eat lean, run and swim a lot. I'll be hanging out in Greece. =)
- 05-13-2005, 10:01 AM
Superdrol + M4OHN would be a great prep for summer cycle. I myself think I will do 12 weeks of Test.
- 05-13-2005, 10:51 AM
05-13-2005, 11:08 AM
"best" really depends on the person.Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
if you do a SD/MOHN cycle, i would run the SD the first 2.5-3 weeks, as the MOHN takes a while to kick in.
and just so you know, unless you are in a caloric deficit, you are not going to lose bodyfat on any of these cycles. so that cliche and borderline nauseating phrase "get cut up" does not apply....at all.
05-13-2005, 11:19 AM
I agree same old, that whole cutting on cycle thing is stupid.....but for lean mass sd and m4ohn is the best in given what he posted as options.
05-13-2005, 12:48 PM
IMO you dont NEED any andrognes during a cut ever. But they are nice because you can keep close to all LBM that you have while in a greatly reduced calorie defecet.
If you really need to drop BF then your deit is going to be reduced calories as this is the only effective way to drop BF fast.
Now there would be NO point in taking a strong compound like M1T or SD during this time as if wont leave you with great results do to the diet issue.
While cutting the ONLY use of androgens should be to keep close to all existing LBM
Most get greedy and try to gain LBM during a cut and real world results just wont allow it. although it can be done it is extremely hard to do.
And if you do decide to cut with an androgen you dont need a really strong one to keep your LBM so my vote would be to use a low dose of MOHN 8-12 mg is all you really need coupled with a cutting diet and do morning cardio on an empty stomach (low intensity) at 65% of your Max hrt rate 220-age=max hrt rate *.65-.75 equals target hrt rate
05-13-2005, 12:48 PM
05-13-2005, 01:27 PM
Well, from user reports, SD works best with plenty of carbs and calories, and on a caloric deficit, gains will be minimal. I suppose you could run 10 days of M1T and still be recovered by the time you left. I'd think with trimax in the mix you'd want more than just M4OHN.
Personally, with such a short time, I'd go with something more benign. You're already pretty low BF anyway. I'd hate to have to deal with PCT and possible thyroid rebound going into my vacation. If it was me, I'd probably look into eating really cleanly, doing a little more cardio, maybe taking something like cisuss, cee, or even low dose Rebound XT - (just enough for a little body recomp.) so I'd go into the vaca nice and clean.
05-13-2005, 02:35 PM
I agree with these guys, too. Don't use anything if all you want to do is get cut up, and if DO use anything, and you plan on doing cardio, DON'T use SD. I've been off a 3 wk cycle for 3 days now, and yesterday I tried to do cardio, and I could only run for 5 minutes because of the pump in my calves and lower back. I had taken 2 doses of taurine previous to running as well...
05-13-2005, 03:05 PM
You can use a more androgenic compound while dieting and still gain LBM in the process. And at the very least, the stronger androgens such as tren, masteron, etc. will help with drying you out and showing more exagerated seperations. If your diet is spot on, it really isn't THAT hard to do when using stronger androgenic compounds.Originally Posted by BryanM
Yes, diet is everything, but the use of stronger AAS during a cut is VERY beneficial. To say that it isn't is just simply false...
When comparing one person that does a cut with anavar to another person who is cutting with tren who do you think will be getting the better results? You got it, its' gonna be the guy that uses the tren. Why do you think BB'ing competitors spend so much time laying out the pre-comp cycles??
05-13-2005, 03:08 PM
Since you are taking Trimax I'd go with MDien over M1T, based on personal experience. I had much better results using MDien. With the M1T I felt like it and the Trimax were working toward opposing goals. I also used M5 mornings and preworkout to help combat letharrgy.
05-13-2005, 03:23 PM
Something not considered yet:
How do you want to *feel* on your vacation?
You are going to end up doing some form of PCT into your vacation. If I were going to choose something to assist my diet, I would choose something that is easy to recover from and won't make feel horrible coming off.
M4OHN or MDien should do the trick.
I wouldn't use trimax either. That will probably make you fatter while you go off your diet and eat for pleasure on vacation.
05-13-2005, 03:29 PM
Forget it all bro. My opinion, putting your body through the stresses of hormone manipulation just so you can look good for a summer trip is just plain dumb.Or, forget them all and just eat lean, run and swim a lot. I'll be hanging out in Greece. =)
For the next 4 weeks, focus like a madman on diet and training...there's no reason why you couldnt drop 4-6lbs of just fat and retain your LBM with the right focus on cardio and nutrition.
What's your caloric intake and how much cardio are you doing now? Add a few more 30 minute sessions of low-intensity cardio per week to your routine and you should start burning off some more chunk.
And plus - if you're going on an extended holiday - you can keep up the routine while you're there, as long as it dosent cut too much into your fun time. If you go off a cycle you're going to have to deal with all that goes with it - trying to do a proper PCT while your partying it up in Greece dosent sound like it will be a good time.
What intv said:
Is great advice. If you're trying to drop more than 6 lbs over the next 4 weeks then MAYBE try something mild like M4OHN and manipulate your diet and training to give you those kind of results. Anything stronger would just be a waste.If it was me, I'd probably look into eating really cleanly, doing a little more cardio, maybe taking something like cisuss, cee, or even low dose Rebound XT - (just enough for a little body recomp.) so I'd go into the vaca nice and clean.
05-13-2005, 05:43 PM
Yes what you are saying is true to a degree but there are other factors involved in why using more androgenic compounds during a cut are benficial. Keep in mind though you already have to be at a low bf % to begin with to even see separations and for the most part people using cutting cycles that do not compete are at least above 11% BF the norm I see from posts is around 15%+ so no matter what compound you use it wont matter about the separations until you get below 10%.Originally Posted by lifted
Most people dont know a whole lot about nutrition and dont get the correct diets down. Not saying all but most have beneficial diets but are not always spot on.
In my experience You have to pick a goal to strictly cut or to strictly bulk. Trying to get the both options out of one cycle will casue you to get less than top results.
your tren/ anavar theory if they both do the same amount of cardio are the same weight and body type and both have the same diet the benefits from the tren are going to be miniscule. But yes in the end the Tren will be slightly better.
In order to cut quickly you are going to have to drop your cals below normal this doesnt provide a good nutrient grounds for muscle building.
Im not saying its impossible to gain LBM on a cut but one shouldnt expect anymore than 2 or 3 pounds LBM.
The amount that it takes to keep existing LBM is very small.
I think that his best option listed is going to be the MOHN alone over something like SD or M1T
If he had acess to injectables then a low dose test prop/tren cycle would be the most beneficial to gaining LBM while cutting BF and factoring in he can cycle with injectables a lot longer than orals. But he was speaking directly in terms of orals.
05-13-2005, 05:53 PM
here is an interesting read on androgenic compounds and cutting
Guide to Losing Fat While "On"
Some interesting stuff but i believe some of it to not be accurate:
Your Guide to Losing Fat While "On"
by Cy Willson
So you wanna drop some fat and you wanna' do it at breakneck speed, huh? What's that? You also want to retain all your muscle mass while greatly reducing calories? Man, you want it all, don't you? Well, it can be done, if you take the proper precautions.
We all know the danger of a super strict diet: potential muscle loss. Who wants to look ripped if you have to lose a lot of hard-earned muscle to get there? Of course, you could go on a sensible diet and slowly drop the fat, but hey, where's the fun in that? Besides, we're in a hurry here!
Many people choose to use steroids while on a severe diet to stave off any possible muscle loss. But which ones and how much? And how should you eat while "on"? Our junior guru Cy Willson has the answers for you. And don't worry, if steroids aren't your bag, he'll also provide some legal alternatives to help you rapidly drop the fat while keeping the muscle.
The Real Anabolic Diet
At one time or another, everyone involved in bodybuilding decides to shed the fat and "see what's under there." With those that use anabolic steroids, this effort has always included the use of drugs that have gained a reputation for their so-called "hardening effect."
Most have attributed this "hardening effect" to a simple reduction in water retention. For example, Joe Blow is using 1,000 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week along with 50 mg per day of methandrostenolone for a course of six to eight weeks. He stops using those two drugs on the ninth week and switches to androgens which cause less water retention. This lack of water retention is the effect referred to as "hardening," right? Actually, I don't think that's the entire story.
True, the reduction in water does play a role. However, I also think certain steroids are much more potent than others in terms of reducing adipose tissue and/or inhibiting the uptake of triglycerides into adipose tissue. Think about it: androgens vary in terms of their anabolic effects upon muscle tissue, so why would this be any different in terms of their effects on the reduction of adipose tissue?
I'll go over my reasoning behind this in the body of my article, as well as provide a list of drugs that are best suited for a fat loss phase. I'll also include a diet plan that will greatly accelerate the reduction of adipose tissue.
Don't worry, I'll also include a "steroid alternative" section which will consist of prohormone usage for those of you who don't like to worry about DEA agents, phone taps, and undercover officers dressed like fitness bunnies, which only paranoid bastards like me worry about anyway.
The AR (Androgen Receptor)
There are many mechanisms behind the ability of androgens to reduce body fat. However, one key determinant of the amount of adipose tissue reduced is that particular androgen's ability to bind to the AR.
I need to mention that most androgens interact with both AR and GR (Glucocorticoid Receptors). We'll touch on that later. For now, let me explain why it matters how well an androgen binds to the AR in terms of reducing adipose tissue. Most of you know that ARs are present in tissue such as muscle. This is one of the mechanisms behind their ability to induce muscular hypertrophy. Now what does this have to do with body fat? Simple, AR's are present in adipose tissue as well. (1)
What does this mean? Well, it's been shown that the higher the density of ARs, the more that lipid uptake is inhibited. (2) It's also been shown that androgens that bind avidly to the AR cause an increase or upregulation of AR in adipocytes. (1) I think the greater the androgen binds to the AR, the more upregulation of AR in adipocytes occurs. This would lead to a significant reduction in subcutaneous adipose tissue. (3)
Notice that I specifically mentioned subcutaneous adipose tissue (fat right beneath the skin) and not visceral adipose tissue (fat around the internal organs). Why did I bother to differentiate between the two? Simple. For the most part, we bodybuilders are concerned only with subcutaneous adipose tissue. Visceral fat doesn't have much of an effect on a person's appearance. For that reason, we're only concerning ourselves with subcutaneous adipose tissue.
Now, what other mechanisms of action can account for the effects seen with those steroids that bind tightly to the AR? Well, those that bind tightly to the AR will decrease LPL (Lipoprotein Lipase), which is an enzyme that causes lipid accumulation. (4) They may also decrease Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase and Fatty Acid Synthetase.(5)
Another interesting note is that androgens have been shown to increase adenyl cylclase as well. This is the enzyme which is responsible for the conversion of cytoplasmic ATP into cyclic AMP. Increasing its concentrations is a good thing, in other words.
The Glucocorticoid Receptor (GR)
There are certain androgens that can interact with GRs and this may very well be another mechanism behind their ability to induce a loss of adipose tissue. The mechanism? Well, the binding of cortisol to the GR can cause an increase in LPL. (6,7,8) This isn't what we want if we're trying to drop body fat, as LPL causes lipid accumulation. So, certain androgens may prevent lipid accumulation through this mechanism.
Some androgens may do one of two things ? or possibly even both ? in order to lower LPL levels in adipose tissue. That is, they may bind to the GR and thus prevent cortisol from binding and increasing LPL activity, or they may downregulate the number of GRs in adipose tissue. (9, 10, 11)
Microsomal Receptors (MR)
The last mechanism involves the presence of the AR in subcellular fractions. To be more specific, the AR has been identified in microsomal portions of the cell. So what does this mean? Certain androgens are able to bind to the AR in microsomes and carry out a posttranscriptional effect. In fact, it appears that out of all the available androgens, stanozolol (Winstrol) is able to bind to this receptor while all others (with the possible exception of danazol) are not.
If you couple this with the idea that the AR is present in the subcellular fractions of adipose tissue ? or the microsomes to be more specific ? this can account for its ability to induce fat loss. (12,13,14)
05-14-2005, 10:43 AM
If you plan on getting laid, don't cycle with Mdien. SD/Mdien cycle gets very good results dry hard gains, but you'll have to suffer dien-dick.
05-14-2005, 12:31 PM
Have you ever ran a stronger androgenic component before during a cut? Have you used for example tren during a sub-maintenenace diet?Originally Posted by BryanM
If you have, then you would be able to understand my point. I've only ran tren once...it was 8 months ago along with 500mg test for libido purposes. Cycle was 12-13 weeks long. I was in a caloric deficit by 1000 if not more cals. I dropped nearly 10lbs. of fat while gaining 12 more lbs. of pure LBM. If that wasn't worth it, then I dunno what is. Stronger AAS lead to better gains...it's just common sense here. Now if you're talking about using ONLY the ones that were listed OHN, mDIEN, then yes, I would strongly agree with ya and say save it and cut natty as those compounds are VERY weak and would provide little to no benefit whatsoever and would IMHO be a total and complete waste. I was just trying to prove my point that stronger AAS can be beneficial.....but it's all how you react...plus genetics and other variables as well.
Like I said, you'r diet has to be spot ****ing on here and you gotta know your body to a "T". If you still can't underatnd what I'm saying ,then we'll just have to agree to disagree here...no disrespect intended either BTW. Just trying to give my opinion. I love tren but but the sides kick my ass man...lol. I'll never run it again for that reason. But while I was on it, it was the most perfect drug to cut/recomp with. Believe me, tren will metamorphasize ya.
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