TRT & Estrogen

[Brick Tannen]

For the first time ever, my TRT is flaring up my gyno from a terrible cycle this past spring. TRT is AG1.62, 4 pumps a day. Anybody run any AI's on AG?? I hate AI's, because they destroy my joints! I ran msten about two months ago at 8mg a day for 3-4 weeks, and by the end, my gyno had returned. After discontinuing msten, and adding Exem, symptoms were gone in less than two weeks, but felt like **** from the Exem. Fast forward to today, about two months later, and I'm getting a soreness behind both nipples, where small gyno exists. Taking nothing more than TRT. Feeling very frustrated! The odd thing is I just finished a bottle of inhibit-p, and while on that had no complaints! After ending inhibit P last week, these symptoms started???

 

[Brick Tannen]

Any benefits to using something like Nolva, EOD, or clomid, EOD while on TRT? Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Brick Tannen]

Go fish?

 

[dave39]

You can use nolva to help you out for sure. 10mg per day or 20mg eod and go from there

 

[Brick Tannen]

TRT & Estrogen

You can use nolva to help you out for sure. 10mg per day or 20mg eod and go from there

So 20mg EOD while on TRT? I am using Exem Mon-wed-Friday until pain subsides, but
I really despise crushing estrogen with an AI, as it makes me feel horrible.

 

[Hyde]

I cycled Msten once. It seemed dry, it's dry by all firsthand accounts I've read, and I did notice Pramiplexole helped things out (my prolactin runs on the high side and Msten increased it). That being said, if I were in your shoes knowing what I know now, I'd use a combo of some tamoxifen(Nolva) ed then eod as things calm and caber at .25 twice a week. Caber has no noticeable sides for me while prami has all of them. Literally cost is the only drawback, and this is my well being so it's worth it to me. You may want to have your prolactin checked; your doc will likely give you the orders.

I'd consider seeing the doc anyway as his job is to help you with your hormones after all.

 

[Kiwigear]

Why not take 200-250mgs of test e for trt..

 

[Brick Tannen]

Why not take 200-250mgs of test e for trt..

I'd love too, but the doc has worked with me on everything, but doesn't want to switch me to shots until the AG is no longer effective without taking a bath in it. I actually prefer the TD AG1.6 due to its libido/hardness benefits. However, eventually I'm looking forward to the shots and no longer worrying about two bottles of lotion a month!! The other reason I preferred androgel is a portion of the test is converted to DHT, which in the past prevented estrogen sides. However between a two week Trest run 4 months ago, and msten over month ago, I have reoccurring gyno. I'm almost positive it's progesterone related tho! Getting bloods next week to confirm my hunch.

 

[Kiwigear]

I'd love too, but the doc has worked with me on everything, but doesn't want to switch me to shots until the AG is no longer effective without taking a bath in it. I actually prefer the TD AG1.6 due to its libido/hardness benefits. However, eventually I'm looking forward to the shots and no longer worrying about two bottles of lotion a month!! The other reason I preferred androgel is a portion of the test is converted to DHT, which in the past prevented estrogen sides. However between a two week Trest run 4 months ago, and msten over month ago, I have reoccurring gyno. I'm almost positive it's progesterone related tho! Getting bloods next week to confirm my hunch.

Fair enough bro.. There's always the subq pellet as well.. Its getting good feedback

 

[Brick Tannen]

Is it possible to get gyno or gyno symptoms from high prolactin and have estrogen in normal ranges? Inhibit P seems to help in alleviating my current symptoms, and when I got it flared up on msten I had clear discharge. Is it possible that this is prolactin rebound from going off the inhibit P? I have doc appt scheduled for early next week to confirm. Nolva on order just in case, but will Nolva do anything if E2 is in normal range but symptoms persist, because it's prolactin induced?

 

[Kiwigear]

Inhibit p a OTC anti E?

 

[Brick Tannen]

TRT & Estrogen

Inhibit p a OTC anti E?

No, not an e-control product. It inhibits prolactin and cortisol, and increases dopamine. It's a solid product, as with most of that companies ancillaries. I haven't found a true, good, otc AI for estrogen yet!

 

[Hyde]

If you have discharge it's 100% from high prolactin. And yes it can be high while estro isn't crazy high; think of people who got discharge gyno while on prodienelone (X-Tren) when that was out. Guys would take it orally solo, get shutdown and have no test (or thereby much estro either) and still be able to get gyno often.

Or guys who get gyno from Tren even on a barebones amount of test.

Be candid with your doc, tell him your suspicions and ask for your prolactin and estrogen checked.

 

[Brick Tannen]

If you have discharge it's 100% from high prolactin. And yes it can be high while estro isn't crazy high; think of people who got discharge gyno while on prodienelone (X-Tren) when that was out. Guys would take it orally solo, get shutdown and have no test (or thereby much estro either) and still be able to get gyno often.

Or guys who get gyno from Tren even on a barebones amount of test.

Be candid with your doc, tell him your suspicions and ask for your prolactin and estrogen checked.

I fully intend too, and always have. He's honest with me and I'm honest with him. Normally he only checks FT, and red blood cells, (make sure theirs no thickening) every 3 mos. This time I'm gonna ask him for estradiol and prolactin.

I guess I'm more concerned with why prolactin stayed high after DC'd use of both trest and msten, at the time of symptoms?

 

[Brick Tannen]

Is there such a thing as Prolactin rebound? Last time this happened my e2, was elevated but not flagged, or "out of normal".... But symptoms were the same and never checked prolactin levels. I guess u could also say I'm living proof that inhibit P works! I started it as soon as discharge and pain started. Completely went away, until 30 days later when I ran out of inhibit P. Will this eventually go away, or will I have to remain on inhibit P forever?

 

[Kiwigear]

No, not an e-control product. It inhibits prolactin and cortisol, and increases dopamine. It's a solid product, as with most of that companies ancillaries. I haven't found a true, good, otc AI for estrogen yet!

Yea I would never use OTC anti e or anti prolactins. Not even research chem crap.. Only tried a s true pharma grade ancillary products

 

[Hyde]

Is there such a thing as Prolactin rebound? Last time this happened my e2, was elevated but not flagged, or "out of normal".... But symptoms were the same and never checked prolactin levels. I guess u could also say I'm living proof that inhibit P works! I started it as soon as discharge and pain started. Completely went away, until 30 days later when I ran out of inhibit P. Will this eventually go away, or will I have to remain on inhibit P forever?

The prolactin rebound theory I can't speak with any confidence on, but I will point out that L-dopa's ability to lower prolactin levels isn't nearly as potent as Prami or Caber. Using a stronger dopamine agonist will obviously affect prolactin to a greater degree.

And remember gyno surgery is always an option for about $6k average out of pocket (it's rarely covered by insurance as its a cosmetic surgery). So no, certainly not forever lol

 

[Brick Tannen]

The prolactin rebound theory I can't speak with any confidence on, but I will point out that L-dopa's ability to lower prolactin levels isn't nearly as potent as Prami or Caber. Using a stronger dopamine agonist will obviously affect prolactin to a greater degree.

And remember gyno surgery is always an option for about $6k average out of pocket (it's rarely covered by insurance as its a cosmetic surgery). So no, certainly not forever lol

I get surgery is an option, but if the imbalance doesn't fix itself, or can't be returned to homeostasis levels, what prevents it from coming back after surgery? I also understand Dostinex is much more potent, but will it return it to normal? Or will it be the same result as l-dopa, after discontinuing, meaning it will just rebound?

 

[Hyde]

I don't know as far as rebound. Google would probably tell us in 2 minutes. But generally the levels it takes to produce a gland and the levels it takes to allow said gland to lactate are in fact 2 very different things. So surgery is a long term option failing all else.

 

[unreal89]

I believe most gyno surgerys they cut the protruded gland and leave the gland itself so your chest dont sink in thats how they get gyno agian i would go in and have it all removed.

 

[Brick Tannen]

It's actually subsided substantially, since Monday when it came on. I'm guessing prolactin rebound. I can tell my estrogen is still semi-high cuz my libido is still through the roof! But the soreness is mostly gone. Not touching them and not worrying is also helping huge. Gonna same the Dostinex and continue B6 and Inhibit P. Inhibit P has other positive benefits like mood and libido, and it's all natural. Crushing estrogen is almost if not worse than high E, pending no obvious gyno flare ups.

 

[Hyde]

It's actually subsided substantially, since Monday when it came on. I'm guessing prolactin rebound. I can tell my estrogen is still semi-high cuz my libido is still through the roof! But the soreness is mostly gone. Not touching them and not worrying is also helping huge. Gonna same the Dostinex and continue B6 and Inhibit P. Inhibit P has other positive benefits like mood and libido, and it's all natural. Crushing estrogen is almost if not worse than high E, pending no obvious gyno flare ups.

Neither Dostinex nor Tamoxifen will affect systemic estrogen levels. The former has all the benefits of a product like inhibit P (it's a much stronger dopamine agonist) and the latter would be blocking estrogen receptors at the chest only. Crushing estrogen would be an awful idea here indeed.

Glad you're feeling better.

 

[Hyde]

I believe most gyno surgerys they cut the protruded gland and leave the gland itself so your chest dont sink in thats how they get gyno agian i would go in and have it all removed.

Your heart is in the right place, but you're not fully informed. I've had surgery on both sides - that's why I now know as much as I do now about dealing with gyno lol. There is no "gland" inherently; if you get gyno (be it either fatty estrogenic tissue or true glandular masses) it can be removed or often only partially removed to provide a balanced looking contour (and that's when it's much easier to grow back like you stated). But having all of it taken out in no way ensures that you can't get new glandular growth if conditions ever become right for it.

 

[unreal89]

So it can all be taken away then? I would deff go that option

 

[unreal89]

Sorry smoking cant read i c now so after having removed still have to be careful

 

[Hyde]

Sorry smoking cant read i c now so after having removed still have to be careful

Correct to both. You're going to want to be a lower bodyfat if you're removing everything or you're going to have big divots/recesses areas.

 

[SweetLou321]

I've seen nothing to support prolactin rebound. I've used caber for high prolactin as well with no clear rebound physically but levels have yet to be checked.

Prolactin can be high if you have benign cost on the pituitary and thus it'll keep coming back unless you do proper therapy for it like caber to shrink it. Or it can be high bc e2 is high. E2 provides the proper signals for prolactin release.

It probably persistent bc pituitary tumor is growing due to aas or estrogen is high enough to allow it to be as well.

Aas can alter shbg and thus free e2 which is what is the major issue not bound e2, levels could still be clearing. T to e2 ratio is the biggest predictor to gyno.

Gyno needs estrogen to be formed or more accurately a skewed t to e2 ratio of 14 or less it seems.

 

[Hyde]

And this all goes back to my very first suggestion: go to your doc and ask for more comprehensive bloodwork so you aren't just blindly throwing things at this.

 

[Brick Tannen]

TRT & Estrogen

And this all goes back to my very first suggestion: go to your doc and ask for more comprehensive bloodwork so you aren't just blindly throwing things at this.

Already scheduled. Should be Tuesday. Free test, Total test, E2, sbhg, and whatever the doc recommends.

I'm just confused that this popped up almost two months after an msten run of only 4 weeks(which flared up from trest cycle months ago). This is also my first real experience with gyno ever. Caused by trest, only two weeks into it back in February/March, but that went away after discontinuing it. Had TRT test base, but no AI. I am on TRT everyday (AG1.6), and have been for about 5 years. I have never used anything stronger than trest or msten. Never used anything I couldn't currently pick up at any supplement store online. I'm also pretty cut. 160lbs, <10% body fat. Very active dude, play sports, etc.

 

[SweetLou321]

Already scheduled. Should be Tuesday. Free test, Total test, E2, sbhg, and whatever the doc recommends.

I'm just confused that this popped up almost two months after an msten run of only 4 weeks(which flared up from trest cycle months ago). This is also my first real experience with gyno ever. Caused by trest, only two weeks into it back in February/March, but that went away after discontinuing it. Had TRT test base, but no AI. I am on TRT everyday (AG1.6), and have been for about 5 years. I have never used anything stronger than trest or msten. Never used anything I couldn't currently pick up at any supplement store online. I'm also pretty cut. 160lbs, <10% body fat. Very active dude, play sports, etc.

Only blood work will tell. There is also gyno with no cause. This is proven in research time and time again. Usually a serm is used here and just waiting. Make sure to test prolactin and thyroid as well. Tsh, free t3 and free t4, hyper thyroid can cause gyno as well.

 

[Hyde]

Already scheduled. Should be Tuesday. Free test, Total test, E2, sbhg, and whatever the doc recommends.

I'm just confused that this popped up almost two months after an msten run of only 4 weeks(which flared up from trest cycle months ago). This is also my first real experience with gyno ever. Caused by trest, only two weeks into it back in February/March, but that went away after discontinuing it. Had TRT test base, but no AI. I am on TRT everyday (AG1.6), and have been for about 5 years. I have never used anything stronger than trest or msten. Never used anything I couldn't currently pick up at any supplement store online. I'm also pretty cut. 160lbs, <10% body fat. Very active dude, play sports, etc.

The fact that you have very low bodyfat and can normally take your androgel without an AI both suggest estrogen alone likely isn't the sole issue.

Also, those are 2 of some of the most potent steroids mg for mg that have ever been made as far as orals and transdermals go, respectively. Just because they were OTC doesn't imply safety. Superdrol is arguably one of the most potent orals ever and it was never made by pharma.

 

[Brick Tannen]

The fact that you have very low bodyfat and can normally take your androgel without an AI both suggest estrogen alone likely isn't the sole issue.

Also, those are 2 of some of the most potent steroids mg for mg that have ever been made as far as orals and transdermals go, respectively. Just because they were OTC doesn't imply safety. Superdrol is arguably one of the most potent orals ever and it was never made by pharma.

Yeah I don't disagree at all, to the strength of those two. However, I never ran either at full dose. Never needed too. Nor did I ever run any longer 4 weeks. I'm just wondering if the last msten run wasn't msten at all, but rather Superdrol. Getting labs tomorrow! We shall see.

 

[SweetLou321]

The fact that you have very low bodyfat and can normally take your androgel without an AI both suggest estrogen alone likely isn't the sole issue.

Also, those are 2 of some of the most potent steroids mg for mg that have ever been made as far as orals and transdermals go, respectively. Just because they were OTC doesn't imply safety. Superdrol is arguably one of the most potent orals ever and it was never made by pharma.

Don't forget the liver is what filters out excess estrogen. So using a super strong oral could effect liver and effect his normal clearance of estrogen. So check that as well op.

 

[Hyde]

Let us know the results when you get em brother!

 

[Brick Tannen]

Will do!

 

[Brick Tannen]

Guess it will be a few days for results. I was actually in the process of staying off any anabolic cycles for an extended period of time anyways. I was planning on running mk677 for joint relief and well being, among other positive benefits. But now I'm nervous as mk677 can stimulate the progesterone levels in ur body for a very short period of time.

 

[Hyde]

Guess it will be a few days for results. I was actually in the process of staying off any anabolic cycles for an extended period of time anyways. I was planning on running mk677 for joint relief and well being, among other positive benefits. But now I'm nervous as mk677 can stimulate the progesterone levels in ur body for a very short period of time.

My experience with mk is that it causes everything to grow, including glandular tissue like true gynocemastia. Rather than just increasing gh in the muscles like hgh injections, mk actually increases overall circulating levels - and that is a profound and relevant difference. If you have any mutations, cysts, tumors, anything prone to growth, it will accelerate it. I will never use it again.

 

[SweetLou321]

Stay off **** until you get back to base line. This is how you make a problem much worse.

 

[Brick Tannen]

Stay off **** until you get back to base line. This is how you make a problem much worse.

Couldn't agree more! No worries. But my baseline is only possible through exogenous TRT. I have had secondary hypogonadism since I was in high school 20 years ago. It was only 5 years ago I started making true gains, keepable gains, with the assistance of TRT. But I have yet to come across any PH or DS steroid that was truly great! Honestly the gains are almost never worth the sides. However that said, I have absolutely made gains with pro hormones, but nothing even close to saying Fck it I'm staying on regardless of consequence! When it comes down to it, if you can't keep the gains or make them without PED, than your putting your body through hell for short term gain! That's why I always preferred softer, longer, cycles. It's only very recent at 36 years old, I even tried msten!

 

[Brick Tannen]

My experience with mk is that it causes everything to grow, including glandular tissue like true gynocemastia. Rather than just increasing gh in the muscles like hgh injections, mk actually increases overall circulating levels - and that is a profound and relevant difference. If you have any mutations, cysts, tumors, anything prone to growth, it will accelerate it. I will never use it again.

Greatly appreciate the feedback!

 

[SweetLou321]

Couldn't agree more! No worries. But my baseline is only possible through exogenous TRT. I have had secondary hypogonadism since I was in high school 20 years ago. It was only 5 years ago I started making true gains, keepable gains, with the assistance of TRT. But I have yet to come across any PH or DS steroid that was truly great! Honestly the gains are almost never worth the sides. However that said, I have absolutely made gains with pro hormones, but nothing even close to saying Fck it I'm staying on regardless of consequence! When it comes down to it, if you can't keep the gains or make them without PED, than your putting your body through hell for short term gain! That's why I always preferred softer, longer, cycles. It's only very recent at 36 years old, I even tried msten!

I meant just stick to your prescribe trt until you know what is going on for now

 

[Brick Tannen]

Only thing that came back so far was Prolactin, and it was well within normal ranges. I'd bet my E2 will also come back normal, and my T levels will again be super low.

 

[SweetLou321]

Only thing that came back so far was Prolactin, and it was well within normal ranges. I'd bet my E2 will also come back normal, and my T levels will again be super low.

Total test to e2 ratio is what I'd look at.

 

[Hyde]

Total test to e2 ratio is what I'd look at.

Right, it wouldn't be the first story I've heard of poor absorption from the androgel

 

[SweetLou321]

Right, it wouldn't be the first story I've heard of poor absorption from the androgel

That and usually teens with gyno have normal test and estrogen but low t to e ratios.

 

[Hyde]

That and usually teens with gyno have normal test and estrogen but low t to e ratios.

Welcome to my life bro

 

[SweetLou321]

Welcome to my life bro

Mine too

 

[Brick Tannen]

Total test to e2 ratio is what I'd look at.

Yeah I agree. The rest of the panel will be back Monday I assume. 3 months ago my Free t was still below normal, so he upped my dose from 2 to 3 pumps a day to 5. I did tell him I didn't want to be taken a bath in the gel, and wanted to consider shots. He recommended that if we do that, we would start at 200mg shots every two weeks. I'll know more this week hopefully.

 

[Brick Tannen]

Ok, well I didn't get the hard copies but I did get a phone call. Everything came back low, but in normal ranges, except my free test. (Tested was e1,e2, ultra sensitive e, tt, ft, sbhg,). FT was super low at 3ng/ml (even on 4 pumps a day of TRT). Wtf?!? Weird thing is, I don't feel that bad. All the e-related sides are gone, and workouts have been good. Just wondering why the AG has become not effective at all?!? Any body with AG experience?

 

[Hyde]

I have no experience with AG, but worth making a separate thread in the male anti-aging. Some helpful guys in there.

Long Jack extract or stinging nettle are options you might explore on your own concerning helping raise free test. I'd try long Jack (tongkat ali) first if you decide to try incorporating a supp, but I'd first see what the doc thinks concerning all this.