Sarm for PCT in Prohormone Cycle Question

[dnorris87]

Hey guys!

So I am about half-way through my 1-andro and 4-andro cycle. I wanted to throw in Ostarine to help solidify some of my gains from this cycle as I have definitely put on some mass. I was thinking of starting 4 weeks of Ostarine (25 mg ED) two weeks before my cycle ends so for two weeks into my PCT Ostarine will be in the mix. For PCT I am planning to run Nolva (40/40/30/20), Clomid (100/100/50/50), & Sup3r-PCT right after my last 1ad/4ad.

Is it okay to run ostarine with serms at the same time or does the anabolic nature of the ostarine defeat the serm's purpose?

What do you guys think of this PCT protocol?

 

[yates84]

No sarm in pct, sarms are suppressive and that would completely defeat the purpose of pct.

 

[Kiwigear]

Man I wouldn't even do 100mgs of clomid a day for the first two weeks of PCT for the cycle I'm on now.. And its nearly 4 grams of real gear lol..

 

[LeanEngineer]

No sarm in pct, sarms are suppressive and that would completely defeat the purpose of pct.

This. Rule of thumb don't run anything suppressive during pct. That's my opinion.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

SERMs are too high IMO. Either do the normal Nolva 20 & 10 and Clomid 50 & 25 tapers, or go low and loooooooong with 10N & 25C - especially for 2 Step 1 & 4 DHEA. No SARM

 

[Kiwigear]

SERMs are too high IMO. Either do the normal Nolva 20 & 10 and Clomid 50 & 25 tapers, or go low and loooooooong with 10N & 25C - especially for 2 Step 1 & 4 DHEA. No SARM

I agree.. 100mg of clomid is ridiculous

 

[dnorris87]

Cool thanks guys. I won't be dong 100mg of clomid. Appreciate the feedback

 

[Dragoninho]

No need to say anything about your Serm dosage again.
25 and 12,5 mg ED is in many cases enough... Don't go crazy on that stuff.

As (also) has been said before. Ostarine has showed supression even in small doses and that's a no go (in general...) for a PCT.
With that said. I've used low doses (25 mg it's not a low dose!) of Osta in some pct's. But that has been after longer injectable cycles and more in fact in the gap between the last injection and the weeks before the PCT starts when the longer esters clears the system so that's essentially not the PCT either.
Sometimes I have done some overlaping and kept the osta for a week or two in the PCT as well but I think that's not so smart...
And for a andro cycle I definately thinks it's a unsmart thing to do. Even if I do think that some people can get away with it. But that's just my own made up theorys.

 

[mikeymike85]

From what I remember, 2 years ago or so, everyone was running Osta in PCT. What changed? I just got off a run of IL Triumphalis, which is fn awesome...but I was going to run Osta in PCT, this week. I usually loose 40% of gains in PCT anyhow, never thought Osta was suppressive anyhow. Then again never got bloods.

 

[mikeymike85]

Would love to hear responses on this considering I'm in week one of pct and my Osta arrives tomorrow. LOL

 

[StanleyG]

No sarm in pct, sarms are suppressive and that would completely defeat the purpose of pct.

This is spot on !

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Spurfy Can you shed some light as to whether it'll hurt PCT that badly? Since you tore me apart with the Forme/Aromasin discussion, if the SERM's and aromasin used in PCT have a stronger positive effect on HPTA up-regulation will the down regulation caused by Osta stop HPTA function?

 

[heavylifter33]

Would love to hear responses on this considering I'm in week one of pct and my Osta arrives tomorrow. LOL

No clue why people would use and recommend using a suppressive compound during PCT. That is just stupid.

 

[Dragoninho]

When Osta first came out it claimed to be non supressant, especially in low dosages.

With time and blood works things changes... but as long as money are involved there always gonna be people that claim things which they can gain profit from.

 

[mikeymike85]

No clue why people would use and recommend using a suppressive compound during PCT. That is just stupid.

Youre acting like it is super suppressive. I loose at least 30% of gains within PCT. Logic behind it is to obviously keep gains. I'll probably run a low dose during PCT

 

[AntM1564]

Youre acting like it is super suppressive. I loose at least 30% of gains within PCT. Logic behind it is to obviously keep gains. I'll probably run a low dose during PCT

If you're losing that much during PCT, I think you need to address diet, training or even sleep. A solid PCT should help one hold into most of what they accomplished from their cycle. If you're talking about pure weight and a wet compound, then that is different, but most people on here do not see strength loss during or even post PCT. Even if they do, it is not that significant.

It does not matter how suppressive a compound is. If it can surpress, it should not be used during PCT and suggesting it should or could be is not responsible.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Youre acting like it is super suppressive. I loose at least 30% of gains within PCT. Logic behind it is to obviously keep gains. I'll probably run a low dose during PCT

UncleSarm 's blood work. Yeah, N=1, but good enough for me not to take it in PCT.

557 to 124... uh, no thanks

 

[AntM1564]

UncleSarm 's blood work. Yeah, N=1, but good enough for me not to take it in PCT.

557 to 124... uh, no thanks

But bro, I used it during PCT and felt fine :thumbsup:

 

[UncleSarm]

UncleSarm 's blood work. Yeah, N=1, but good enough for me not to take it in PCT.

557 to 124... uh, no thanks

But bro, I used it during PCT and felt fine :thumbsup:

But if you remember we were also using HCGenerate in PCT for that cycle! Dat was da bomb!

Ironically, I felt fine with T at 124, probably due to low SHBG, but my T was still in the clinical deficiency range.

 

[dnorris87]

You guys have helped me out tremendously. I cancelled my shipment of ostarine and will go ahead and just run the nolva, clomid, and sup3r-pct.

I do like Ostarine and experienced some great mass and strength gain with it but in retrospect it was definitely suppressive for me. I will probably just include a sarm with my next cycle in about 6 months (On cycle, not PCT).

Thanks fellas!

 

[Spurfy]

Spurfy Can you shed some light as to whether it'll hurt PCT that badly? Since you tore me apart with the Forme/Aromasin discussion, if the SERM's and aromasin used in PCT have a stronger positive effect on HPTA up-regulation will the down regulation caused by Osta stop HPTA function?

There are two keys to avoiding or minimizing shutdown:

1. E2 control (most important)
2. Keeping free T levels below supraphysiologic

With proper clomid dosage and appropriate use of an AI, we're generally going to see T levels right up near the top of normal range, so throwing a SARM in there makes very little sense. Nevertheless, since SARM-related elevations in T are self-limiting, I don't see any real harm in doing this so long as the SARM is tapered well before the clomid is tapered. As always, AI use (exemestane/Aromasin is preferred) well after stopping clomid is going to really be the key in preventing shutdown, since E2 is the most HPG-axis suppressive compound.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

There are two keys to avoiding or minimizing shutdown:

1. E2 control (most important)
2. Keeping free T levels below supraphysiologic

With proper clomid dosage and appropriate use of an AI, we're generally going to see T levels right up near the top of normal range, so throwing a SARM in there makes very little sense. Nevertheless, since SARM-related elevations in T are self-limiting, I don't see any real harm in doing this so long as the SARM is tapered well before the clomid is tapered. As always, AI use (exemestane/Aromasin is preferred) well after stopping clomid is going to really be the key in preventing shutdown, since E2 is the most HPG-axis suppressive compound.

SO here's a protocol for a 6 week PCT i may try for my upcoming PCT-
Weeks 1-6 of PCT
Clomid- 25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5
Nolva- 20/20/20/10/10/10
Weeks 1-3
Ostarine 5/5/5
Weeks 4-8
Exemestane 12.5mg ed (2 weeks overlap with SERM's and extended 2 weeks past SERM cessation.

How does this look to you? Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[rtmilburn]

SO here's a protocol for a 6 week PCT i may try for my upcoming PCT-
Weeks 1-6 of PCT
Clomid- 25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5
Nolva- 20/20/20/10/10/10
Weeks 1-3
Ostarine 5/5/5
Weeks 4-8
Exemestane 12.5mg ed (2 weeks overlap with SERM's and extended 2 weeks past SERM cessation.

How does this look to you? Thanks for taking the time to reply.

See to me even if ostrine doesnt manage to prevent hpta restoration during pct, i still thinks it's worhtless in pct. As it takes about 3 weeks to kick in anyways.

I wouldnt run 6 weeks of nolva. Go for 4 nolva and 6 clomid. Drop osta then that looks great

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

See to me even if ostrine doesnt manage to prevent hpta restoration during pct, i still thinks it's worhtless in pct. As it takes about 3 weeks to kick in anyways.

I wouldnt run 6 weeks of nolva. Go for 4 nolva and 6 clomid. Drop osta then that looks great

First off let me say I AM NOT ADVOCATING SARMS IN PCT.

In all of my 7 PCT's thus far I have never used a SARM in PCT

This is being done solely to experiment, and i'm not even sure if i will pursue this experiment.

I only thought about it due to a discussion Spurfy and I had on a previous post in regards to-

If compounds being used in PCT have a stronger ability to up-regulate the HPTA's natural production then any compounds that would down regulate it would have their down regulation effects negated if and only if the compounds being used to restore the HPTA had a stronger effect.

In regards to your post- for PCT were not looking for those muscle gaining effects, the point to PCT is just retention of gains made on cycle. Ostarine has studies showing that even at just 3mg it has positive effects on muscle wasting. It went to stage 2 clinical trials because of it's effectiveness in that regard. What we look for in an Osta cycle vs it's place in PCT is entirely different. Also, I agree on the nolva due to it's ability to decrease IGF-1 and increase SHBG. Was just a mock on the fly write-up.

 

[rtmilburn]

.

In regards to your post- for PCT were not looking for those muscle gaining effects, the point to PCT is just retention of gains made on cycle. Ostarine has studies showing that even at just 3mg it has positive effects on muscle wasting. It went to stage 2 clinical trials because of it's effectiveness in that regard. What we look for in an Osta cycle vs it's place in PCT is entirely different.

I understand that. Just becuase something is effective at low dose doesnt mean it doesnt take awhile to kick in. It has shown to take about 3 weeks to kick in. So im not really sure what your point is there?

 

[Spurfy]

SO here's a protocol for a 6 week PCT i may try for my upcoming PCT-
Weeks 1-6 of PCT
Clomid- 25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5
Nolva- 20/20/20/10/10/10
Weeks 1-3
Ostarine 5/5/5
Weeks 4-8
Exemestane 12.5mg ed (2 weeks overlap with SERM's and extended 2 weeks past SERM cessation.

How does this look to you? Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Everything looks good to me, except that I would extend the exemestane out at least 4 weeks (preferably 6 weeks) after the last dose of SERM, since it takes a full month to clear a single dose of either nolva or clomid.

I honestly don't think that 3 weeks of Ostarine will significantly impair HPG-axis recovery, and even if it does, everything will work itself out by week 6 anyway once the ostarine is out of your system. SERMs are very, very powerful.

Props on the low dose clomid. You could even drop the nolva down to 5-10 mg, since it's about 8 times as potent (dose-for-dose) as clomid.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I understand that. Just becuase something is effective at low dose doesnt mean it doesnt take awhile to kick in. It has shown to take about 3 weeks to kick in. So im not really sure what your point is there?

It has shown to kick in in terms of how we "feel" in 3 weeks? Or do you have a study/article showing it takes that long? I don't have a study stating it kicks in sooner. As I said before, this is purely for experimentation. Just because we don't feel or see something working, does that mean it's not expressing any effect biologically? All of this is speculation. SO my point is, unless you have scientific studies saying ostarine needs 3 weeks to have any biological function, then how do we know it won't have muscle sparing effects from first administration. As I said in both posts this is purely EXPERIMENTATION.

 

[rtmilburn]

Everything looks good to me, except that I would extend the exemestane out at least 4 weeks (preferably 6 weeks) after the last dose of SERM, since it takes a full month to clear a single dose of either nolva or clomid.

I honestly don't think that 3 weeks of Ostarine will significantly impair HPG-axis recovery, and even if it does, everything will work itself out by week 6 anyway once the ostarine is out of your system. SERMs are very, very powerful.

Props on the low dose clomid. You could even drop the nolva down to 5-10 mg, since it's about 8 times as potent (dose-for-dose) as clomid.

Wow. Thats all i have to say

 

[Spurfy]

I understand that. Just becuase something is effective at low dose doesnt mean it doesnt take awhile to kick in. It has shown to take about 3 weeks to kick in. So im not really sure what your point is there?

"Kick in time" is a mostly made-up concept. If we're discussing "time to steady state concentrations" then it becomes a little more relevant, but in this case it's essentially meaningless.

For example, test E doesn't take "a month to start working" it takes a month to reach steady state concentrations and even this is irrelevent since the first dose is going to push T levels into supraphysiologic range. Test E (or any ester) "starts working" from the moment the first T molecule is cleaved from the ester -- about 20 minutes.

 

[Spurfy]

Just because we don't feel or see something working, does that mean it's not expressing any effect biologically?

This x 10,000,000

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

"Kick in time" is a mostly made-up concept. If we're discussing "time to steady state concentrations" then it becomes a little more relevant, but in this case it's essentially meaningless.

For example, test E doesn't take "a month to start working" it takes a month to reach steady state concentrations and even this is irrelevent since the first dose is going to push T levels into supraphysiologic range. Test E (or any ester) it "starts working" from the moment the first T molecule is cleaved from the ester -- about 20 minutes.

Exactly my point, just because it takes a while to "FEEL" the effects which is subjective from the get go, doesn't mean a compounds biological effects don't express themselves from first administration.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Everything looks good to me, except that I would extend the exemestane out at least 4 weeks (preferably 6 weeks) after the last dose of SERM, since it takes a full month to clear a single dose of either nolva or clomid.

I honestly don't think that 3 weeks of Ostarine will significantly impair HPG-axis recovery, and even if it does, everything will work itself out by week 6 anyway once the ostarine is out of your system. SERMs are very, very powerful.

Props on the low dose clomid. You could even drop the nolva down to 5-10 mg, since it's about 8 times as potent (dose-for-dose) as clomid.

Ever since our debate (well more-so your Crucifixion of me) i've gone on to read many studies on Enclomiphene Citrate and it's a remarkably powerful drug in terms of HPTA restoration. Hence why im opting to test low dose (along with the fact that the sides are excruciating even at 50mg for me). I'm willing to bet the reason people have failed restarts is because they don't use an AI to clear aromatised estrogens from SERM administration, once our T tops off at close to supra-physiological levels our body will inevitably start to aromatise the large amount of test. E2 then rises and stays high unless that circulating estrogen is cleared. I feel as though exemestane is one of-if not the most important part of PCT. We need to prevent estrogen from staying high. Since that day I read for many hours thanks to you and am in your debt as i've learned many things since.

 

[Spurfy]

Ever since our debate (well more-so your Crucifixion of me) i've gone on to read many studies on Enclomiphene Citrate and it's a remarkably powerful drug in terms of HPTA restoration.

Indeed. If I had a reliable source for this, I would take it every day for the rest of my life.

I'm willing to bet the reason people have failed restarts is because they don't use an AI to clear aromatised estrogens from SERM administration, once our T tops off at close to supra-physiological levels our body will inevitably start to aromatise the large amount of test. E2 then rises and stays high unless that circulating estrogen is cleared. I feel as though exemestane is one of-if not the most important part of PCT. We need to prevent estrogen from staying high.

This, especially the bolded, is exactly correct.

 

[AllTheGainz]

Youre acting like it is super suppressive. I loose at least 30% of gains within PCT. Logic behind it is to obviously keep gains. I'll probably run a low dose during PCT

Jesus 30% I've never lost more than 10% after a cycle and I thought that was a lot....

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So some other really smart dudes say an AI during PCT is not what you want. PCT is about Homeostasis. The thinking is - the Tamoxifen during PCT is protecting the breast tissue from any *possible* (not guaranteed) elevation of Estrogen, while the the bodies' CYP Enzymatic System is clearing the excess Estrogen way faster than any damage could be done (and you have the Nolva blocking anyway). AI on cycle, SERM in PCT. What say ye?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

So some other really smart dudes say an AI during PCT is not what you want. PCT is about Homeostasis. The thinking is - the Tamoxifen during PCT is protecting the breast tissue from any *possible* (not guaranteed) elevation of Estrogen, while the the bodies' CYP Enzymatic System is clearing the excess Estrogen way faster than any damage could be done (and you have the Nolva blocking anyway). AI on cycle, SERM in PCT. What say ye?

I've never understood the "PCT is about homeostasis" argument. If you're truly aiming for homeostasis, then don't use a drug in PCT at all.. Anybody that says the "pct is about homeostasis so don't use an AI" line is contradicting themselves... Also. Nolvadex is BLOCKING the estrogen. You said it yourself, it blocks the estrogen from exerting its effects. So what happens when nolvadex administration is ceased and there's nothing to prevent the circulating estrogen from exerting its effects. Also if our bodies CYP enzymatic system is that efficient where it can prevent aromatization from a SERM that's pushing our T to close to supra physiological levels, then how come men who've never touched anything AA's related or any natural hormonal even, have estrogen problems? If our body could handle estrogen that easily especially with SERMs pushing your testosterone even higher than it was prior, then how do we describe the failed restarts and the rising estrogen problems with men? An AI after serm Cessation is IMPERATIVE to the success of PCT, and as spurfy stated multiple times E2 is the most HPTA suppressive chemical in the entire body. Using an AI past SERM cessation will do nothing but help if you actually dial in dosage and don't use irresponsibly.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'll hit this point by point (hopefully) as I can counter every one (not saying I'm right/your wrong - just points to think about) at a later time - in the gym right now. However, I never use an AI in PCT and have always had great success. BRB!

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I'll hit this point by point (hopefully) as I can counter every one (not saying I'm right/your wrong - just points to think about) at a later time - in the gym right now. However, I never use an AI in PCT and have always had great success. BRB!

Always up to learn! So please whatever you have let me know as I love learning. Much appreciated enjoy your workout.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Always up to learn! So please whatever you have let me know as I love learning. Much appreciated enjoy your workout.

I don't know sh&t I'll just be regurgitating what smarter people say Too much to type, but there are a few good threads I'll have to track down and link :thumbsup:

 

[Spurfy]

I've never understood the "PCT is about homeostasis" argument. If you're truly aiming for homeostasis, then don't use a drug in PCT at all.. Anybody that says the "pct is about homeostasis so don't use an AI" line is contradicting themselves... Also. Nolvadex is BLOCKING the estrogen. You said it yourself, it blocks the estrogen from exerting its effects. So what happens when nolvadex administration is ceased and there's nothing to prevent the circulating estrogen from exerting its effects. Also if our bodies CYP enzymatic system is that efficient where it can prevent aromatization from a SERM that's pushing our T to close to supra physiological levels, then how come men who've never touched anything AA's related or any natural hormonal even, have estrogen problems? If our body could handle estrogen that easily especially with SERMs pushing your testosterone even higher than it was prior, then how do we describe the failed restarts and the rising estrogen problems with men? An AI after serm Cessation is IMPERATIVE to the success of PCT, and as spurfy stated multiple times E2 is the most HPTA suppressive chemical in the entire body. Using an AI past SERM cessation will do nothing but help if you actually dial in dosage and don't use irresponsibly.

This.

1. SERMs elevate E2, we know this for a fact.
2. E2 is extremely suppressive
3. The presence of the SERM prevents this suppression.
4. Unless the clearance rate for E2 is exactly the same or faster than the clearance rate for the SERM *AND* E2 synthesis is simultaneously suppressed, the end result is that during the taper there are elevated levels of E2 no longer being blocked by the SERM.
5. E2 is extremely suppressive.
6. Failed PCT.
7. E2 is extremely suppressive.

The whole reason SERMs elevate testosterone and restart the HPG-axis is because they block the binding of E2 at the hypothalamus and/or pituitary. Think about this for a second... E2 is so suppressive, that a drug that blocks its binding can elevate T levels into near supraphysiologic range. Now think about the opposite occurring, where E2 is flooding H/P receptors. Now, someone tell me an AI isn't a really, really good idea in PCT.

 

[irishiron300]

Not to hijack the thread but I wanted to respond to the OP throwing in Osta while on cycle (cuz we already covered it in PCT).

My thought is that it seems redundant to use a SARM with any other hormonal that is not selective as it defeats the purpose of a SARM. That said I have been seeing it more often. Anyone else use a SARM on cycle? Results? Waste?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Not to hijack the thread but I wanted to respond to the OP throwing in Osta while on cycle (cuz we already covered it in PCT).

My thought is that it seems redundant to use a SARM with any other hormonal that is not selective as it defeats the purpose of a SARM. That said I have been seeing it more often. Anyone else use a SARM on cycle? Results? Waste?

That's only relative to those who aren't worried about the selectivity. SARMs themselves have a host of benefits to the cycle, they prime receptors for other androgens, they help with glucose utilization and much more. It's only redundant for those only choosing SARMs to avoid androgenic sides, otherwise for people who use SARMs just because they're a good PED it doesn't matter. I've used SARMs on cycle many times, namely only LGD though as my body chemistry likes LGD.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

This.

Search function is down, but Google Site Search to the rescue!. I found the two threads that talk about this, and what I decided to implement, that has been successful so far (Dual SERM, no AI in PCT):

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/268917-pct-dosing.html#post4953760

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/269131-does-anybody-not.html#post4959340

 

[Spurfy]

Search function is down, but Google Site Search to the rescue!. I found the two threads that talk about this, and what I decided to implement, that has been successful so far (Dual SERM, no AI in PCT):

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/268917-pct-dosing.html#post4953760

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/269131-does-anybody-not.html#post4959340

First off, in these threads I saw a lot of speculation and claims with little to no evidence other than "I use" or "I've heard" or "so-and-so says." Secondly, it's painfully obvious that very few BBers understand SERMs, at all. SERMs elevate testosterone, and where T goes, E2 follows. Moreover, due to their potent action on LH, SERMs significantly elevate intratesticular testosterone (ITT), which cannot be controlled even with an AI. Saying, "Androgen levels will be very low after a cycle" is absolutely false *IF* one is running any SERM in PCT and if Leydig cell function is even remotely intact. SERMs immediately elevate testosterone. Immediately, starting from the first dose. Within 5 days, time to peak plasma concentration of any SERM, T levels will be significantly elevated, especially ITT levels, which causes a significant elevation in E2. Saying, "Don't use an AI in PCT because you have no E2." is nonsensical and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the mechanism of action of SERMs.

The problem is that a lot of BBers confuse "keeping gainz', bro!" with HPG-axis recovery. In reality, the two have nothing to do with each other except perhaps in the very long-term. So, my questions to you are: How do you know that you recover from PCT? Do you have blood test results, before and after?

 

[yates84]

To say you have to have an ai in pct is just as dumb as saying you don't need one. I agree serms raise e2 and e2 negatively effects the hpta but how do you know if your e2 is high enough to require an ai without blood tests? An ai in pct is user dependant and blood tests are required to truly know wether or not an ai is needed.

 

[Spurfy]

To say you have to have an ai in pct is just as dumb as saying you don't need one. I agree serms raise e2 and e2 negatively effects the hpta but how do you know if your e2 is high enough to require an ai without blood tests? An ai in pct is user dependant and blood tests are required to truly know wether or not an ai is needed.

The risk-reward ratio says "Use an AI in PCT."

Risks of AI use: Driving E2 too low, in which case dose is reduced until symptoms are gone
Risks of no AI use: Long-term HPG-axis suppression due to elevated E2 after cessation/taper of SERM(s)

Rewards of AI use: Robust HPG-axis recovery after cessation/taper of SERM(s)
Rewards of no AI use: Save a few dollars

 

[AllTheGainz]

To say you have to have an ai in pct is just as dumb as saying you don't need one. I agree serms raise e2 and e2 negatively effects the hpta but how do you know if your e2 is high enough to require an ai without blood tests? An ai in pct is user dependant and blood tests are required to truly know wether or not an ai is needed.

Would it not be safer to have someone run one if they are unsure if they need it or not? I agree it's not always needed but if they've never cycled before wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry or am I missing some key fact?

 

[yates84]

The risk-reward ratio says "Use an AI in PCT."

Risks of AI use: Driving E2 too low, in which case dose is reduced until symptoms are gone
Risks of no AI use: Long-term HPG-axis suppression due to elevated E2 after cessation/taper of SERM(s)

Rewards of AI use: Robust HPG-axis recovery after cessation/taper of SERM(s)
Rewards of no AI use: Save a few dollars

Sure, if you're not smart enough to get blood work. Throwing drugs into pct without necessity retards finding homeostasis.

 

[yates84]

Would it not be safer to have someone run one if they are unsure if they need it or not? I agree it's not always needed but if they've never cycled before wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry or am I missing some key fact?

The key factor you're missing is go grab some cheap bloodwork. It's cheaper than that bottle of exemestane you would run "just because"

 

[Spurfy]

Sure, if you're not smart enough to get blood work. Throwing drugs into pct without necessity retards finding homeostasis.

Homeostasis? Are you joking?

Don't inject illegal drugs in an attempt to go beyond your genetic capacity to build muscle if you're looking for homeostasis. Eat right, sleep enough, train moderately, don't use drugs. There's homeostasis for you...