Am i Missing anything Test E Cycle

[juselliott]

Doing 500mg a week x12 wks,Have my Joint and Liver Complex Supps
My PCT Supps ,but just OTC Stuff...Reccommend Cloma and Nolvadex from what i've read correct?
How important is an Anastrazole and HCG while running this?
Are these just for safe measures to have on hand?

Sorry for the noob questions i dont want in the end to lose all the gains just to have to try again...

Thanks Ahead!

 

[criticalbench]

1. 500mg for 12 weeks: PERFECT!!!! Solid research, props for doing it right

2. Joint Supplements and Liver supplements are not needed with just test. Test is not hard on the joints or liver.

3. Invest instead, in cardiac support. Terminalia Arjuna, L-Theanine, Heart Help for cholesterol, etc. Dandelion Root as an OTC diuretic for water retention. You will thank me.

4. You don't need OTC PCT Stuff, clomid or nolva is fine.

5. You def want an AI, I prefer Aromasin. 6.25mg ED.

6. HCG is not needed but makes PCT much easier.

7. Anything that frees up bound inactive testosterone is the best addition to test. When you take test, you increase total test. Increasing your free test levels makes it all even better. Most people accomplish this with proviron. It can also be done although with 3,4 divinil which is found in testabolan.. Proviron stronger but most likely more expensive.

 

[linuxjon]

Length and dose of test are great. Joint supps are always good too. Liver isn't so important for an injectible only cycle.

You need either Nolva, Clomid or both. OTC PCT stuff can be a nice addition, but is 100% NOT effective as your primary PCT.

HCG is helpful in recovery for sure, but lots of people don't use it and recover fine on just a SERM like Nolva or Clomid. I'd use it, but it's less important than your SERM and AI.

Speaking of which... Yes, either Arimidex or Exemestane are mandatory to have on hand. Have at least enough arimidex to dose .5mg daily for the full cycle, or 12.5mg Exemestane daily for the full cycle. You MAY not need it. You'll probably need it in a smaller dose than that. But you definitely don't want to start seeing high estrogen issues and not have enough of it immediately available.

 

[juselliott]

Thanks guys! I will grab the few things mentioned above, and do an update thread soon of how it'sit's going.

 

[pogue]

I agree with criticalbench, except on the following points

3. Invest instead, in cardiac support. Terminalia Arjuna, L-Theanine, Heart Help for cholesterol, etc. Dandelion Root as an OTC diuretic for water retention. You will thank me.

Terminalia Arjuna is supposed to be really good stuff for blood pressure, but it may have some contraindications. Read up on it first before you buy it.
https://examine.com/supplements/terminalia-arjuna/

I’ve never heard of using theanine for heart health. It may be good for general stress and falling asleep, but not for cardioprotective benefits.

Notes for this study:
200mg of Theanine failed to influence state anxiety any differently than placebo nor did the heart rate changes during an attention task differ.

It would be okay to take, but I wouldn’t rely on it for heart health https://examine.com/supplements/Theanine/#summary5

But read up on my post on cardiovascular health on cycle. I recommend buying a BP monitor, using garlic, potassium and magnesium and a few other things:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281497-cycle-heart-support.html#post5370240

I’m not so sure about the dandelion root either. It can have some contraindications as well, and if you did decide to use is as a diuretic you would want to use plenty of electrolytes. I don’t see many people recommending pre-contest diuretics during a bulking cycle, that’s kind of a strange suggestion, IMO.

You don't need OTC PCT Stuff, clomid or nolva is fine.

Agree, no OTC stuff, but here’s a good article on Clomid vs Nolva:

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/clomid-nolvadex-and-testosterone-stimulation/

5. You def want an AI, I prefer Aromasin. 6.25mg ED. .

I disagree with running an AI throughout the course of an entire cycle unless you are estrogen sensitive for the following reasons:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281701-running-ai-during.html#post5374956
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281701-running-ai-during.html#post5374964

6. HCG is not needed but makes PCT much easier.

Back when I came on the scene, hCG was considered an essential part of any PCT cycle - absolutely mandatory - and some even ran it 250iu EOD throughout the course of an entire cycle to prevent your natural testosterone production from stopping (which is a legitimate method still encouraged by some TRT doctors). However, it’s kind of fallen out of favor lately for some reason. The only way to know if you will need hCG once you’re about 6 weeks out from your PCT is getting full blood work with estrogen, testosterone, etc and determining if your levels are where they should be otherwise, hCG would be highly recommended.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060221154317/http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm
https://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/hcg/
Q: “How should HCG be used in post-cycle therapy (PCT)?”
The Use of HCG Between Steroid Cycles
Case study: hCG restores testosterone production after steroids use

And there’s many more articles I could post.

7. Anything that frees up bound inactive testosterone is the best addition to test. When you take test, you increase total test. Increasing your free test levels makes it all even better. Most people accomplish this with proviron. It can also be done although with 3,4 divinil which is found in testabolan.. Proviron stronger but most likely more expensive.

I haven’t heard of anyone ever refer to Urtica dioica as 3,4 divinil, but apparently, it is a constituent of it, Urtica dioica is Nettle Root and will help prevent testosterone from binding to SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). But, there are plenty of studies showing it helps and it’s a fairly cheap supplement to find and buy on it’s own.

L-carnitine L-tartrate at 2g per day will also prevent androgen receptor downregulation and is also a helpful supplement on cycle.

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.

 

[Smont]

1. 500mg for 12 weeks: PERFECT!!!! Solid research, props for doing it right

2. Joint Supplements and Liver supplements are not needed with just test. Test is not hard on the joints or liver.

3. Invest instead, in cardiac support. Terminalia Arjuna, L-Theanine, Heart Help for cholesterol, etc. Dandelion Root as an OTC diuretic for water retention. You will thank me.

4. You don't need OTC PCT Stuff, clomid or nolva is fine.

5. You def want an AI, I prefer Aromasin. 6.25mg ED.

6. HCG is not needed but makes PCT much easier.

7. Anything that frees up bound inactive testosterone is the best addition to test. When you take test, you increase total test. Increasing your free test levels makes it all even better. Most people accomplish this with proviron. It can also be done although with 3,4 divinil which is found in testabolan.. Proviron stronger but most likely more expensive.

All of this is good advice. My only suggestion is that you don't use an ai until it is needed.

 

[uprightrows]

1. 500mg for 12 weeks: PERFECT!!!! Solid research, props for doing it right

2. Joint Supplements and Liver supplements are not needed with just test. Test is not hard on the joints or liver.

3. Invest instead, in cardiac support. Terminalia Arjuna, L-Theanine, Heart Help for cholesterol, etc. Dandelion Root as an OTC diuretic for water retention. You will thank me.

4. You don't need OTC PCT Stuff, clomid or nolva is fine.

5. You def want an AI, I prefer Aromasin. 6.25mg ED.

6. HCG is not needed but makes PCT much easier.

7. Anything that frees up bound inactive testosterone is the best addition to test. When you take test, you increase total test. Increasing your free test levels makes it all even better. Most people accomplish this with proviron. It can also be done although with 3,4 divinil which is found in testabolan.. Proviron stronger but most likely more expensive.

Great advice. Only thing I would add is if you can afford it and have access, definitely use HCG low dose (~200-250 IU 2/wk) your entire cycle, or just wk 2-12. If you need bp support get metoprolol. And if you want to lower SHBG, proviron is great like critical said, but even better is any short ester mast if you can get it, either of those will probably help a little with the estrogen as well, but you still want a proper AI.

 

[uprightrows]

Wow sorry, I need to read the entire thread more carefully, this is probably your first cycle. Forget what I said about the mast, stick with just test and maybe that divinil whatever. You are fine with either anastrozole or exemestane (aromasin, which is probably slightly better) as your AI.

I disagree a little with Smont, I would run the AI starting at a low dose from the beginning of your cycle. The reasoning behind this is it is much easier to stop estrogen related problems before they arise than to treat them once you realize you have them. It is totally possible to have elevated estrogen levels (and quite likely if you're adding an extra 500mg of test a week) and not notice any immediate symptoms and then suddenly... you have gyno or your d*** doesn't work, adding in an AI like arimidex or aromasin at this point probably won't do much, at least for a while because you have a glut of circulating estrogen, and stopping conversion won't change that. Conversely, if you have extremely low estrogen symptoms, it is much easier to back off on the AI dose and know you are still protected from excess aromitization.

 

[criticalbench]

I agree with criticalbench, except on the following points



Terminalia Arjuna is supposed to be really good stuff for blood pressure, but it may have some contraindications. Read up on it first before you buy it.
https://examine.com/supplements/terminalia-arjuna/

I’ve never heard of using theanine for heart health. It may be good for general stress and falling asleep, but not for cardioprotective benefits.



It would be okay to take, but I wouldn’t rely on it for heart health https://examine.com/supplements/Theanine/#summary5

But read up on my post on cardiovascular health on cycle. I recommend buying a BP monitor, using garlic, potassium and magnesium and a few other things:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281497-cycle-heart-support.html#post5370240

I’m not so sure about the dandelion root either. It can have some contraindications as well, and if you did decide to use is as a diuretic you would want to use plenty of electrolytes. I don’t see many people recommending pre-contest diuretics during a bulking cycle, that’s kind of a strange suggestion, IMO.



Agree, no OTC stuff, but here’s a good article on Clomid vs Nolva:

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/clomid-nolvadex-and-testosterone-stimulation/



I disagree with running an AI throughout the course of an entire cycle unless you are estrogen sensitive for the following reasons:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281701-running-ai-during.html#post5374956
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281701-running-ai-during.html#post5374964



Back when I came on the scene, hCG was considered an essential part of any PCT cycle - absolutely mandatory - and some even ran it 250iu EOD throughout the course of an entire cycle to prevent your natural testosterone production from stopping (which is a legitimate method still encouraged by some TRT doctors). However, it’s kind of fallen out of favor lately for some reason. The only way to know if you will need hCG once you’re about 6 weeks out from your PCT is getting full blood work with estrogen, testosterone, etc and determining if your levels are where they should be otherwise, hCG would be highly recommended.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060221154317/http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm
https://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/hcg/
Q: “How should HCG be used in post-cycle therapy (PCT)?”
The Use of HCG Between Steroid Cycles
Case study: hCG restores testosterone production after steroids use

And there’s many more articles I could post.




I haven’t heard of anyone ever refer to Urtica dioica as 3,4 divinil, but apparently, it is a constituent of it, Urtica dioica is Nettle Root and will help prevent testosterone from binding to SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). But, there are plenty of studies showing it helps and it’s a fairly cheap supplement to find and buy on it’s own.

L-carnitine L-tartrate at 2g per day will also prevent androgen receptor downregulation and is also a helpful supplement on cycle.

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.

1. Terminalia Arjuna is an awesome protective measure for the left ventricle to help reduce the possibility of LVH commonly associated with steroid use. Not aware of any serious contraindications that you are speaking about in regards to anything the OP is taking.

2. Anything that reduces blood pressure is cardio protective when on steroids to prevent lvh. L-Theanine does great at reducing stress thus reducing arterial pressures resulting in a decreased workload on the left ventricular preventing remodeling issues.

3. Testosterone causes water retention, we all no that. That is common. Dandelion root is not a diuretic like hctz and is potassium sparing in the sense that it contains very high amounts of potassium which is why it is contraindicated in ace inhibitors and aldactone use. You should not have to supplement with excess minerals. Again, reducing fluid retention will not only assist in a better physique, but will enhance blood pressure control. Most heavy steroid users on all the forums I am on are using an ACE or an ARB at all times in addition to hctz which is significantly stronger than dandelion root. I'd highly suggest looking into it. A low dose like 12.5mg hctz is a wonder drug on AAS. That dose alone should not pose any direct nephrotoxic effects. Increased uric acid levels may show up on blood work, but easily self resolves. Hctz requires initial potassium monitoring though so it is a tad more tricky unlike a far weaker dandelion root.

4. Aromasin I would highly suggest starting from the beginning at a very low dose. It is much much much easier to prevent rather than treat. Treating flare ups typically require much higher doses. I could easily prevent with 6.25mg ED but if I have to treat a flare up, its going to take 25mg min and a long while.

5. The direct purpose of testabolan is to help free up bound inactive testosterone.

 

[criticalbench]

Great advice. Only thing I would add is if you can afford it and have access, definitely use HCG low dose (~200-250 IU 2/wk) your entire cycle, or just wk 2-12. If you need bp support get metoprolol. And if you want to lower SHBG, proviron is great like critical said, but even better is any short ester mast if you can get it, either of those will probably help a little with the estrogen as well, but you still want a proper AI.

I would not suggest a beta blocker like metoprolol for blood pressure control. Arbs are significantly more valuable in steroid use. Beta blockers have to be tapered up and down and pose more of a risk than most other classes. Ace and arbs provide many other positives for steroid users than beta blockers and do a significantly better job when preventing lvh. The only beta blocker I'd suggest would be Coreg because of its additional alpha blocking properties, calcium channel blocking properties, anti-oxidant effects and its ability to directly dilate the aorta.

With a beta blocker you have to watch blood pressure but more importantly heart rate. I take coreg and it lowers my resting heart rate from 74 to 58ish.

 

[pogue]

I would not suggest a beta blocker like metoprolol for blood pressure control. Arbs are significantly more valuable in steroid use. Beta blockers have to be tapered up and down and pose more of a risk than most other classes. Ace and arbs provide many other positives for steroid users than beta blockers and do a significantly better job when preventing lvh. The only beta blocker I'd suggest would be Coreg because of its additional alpha blocking properties, calcium channel blocking properties, anti-oxidant effects and its ability to directly dilate the aorta.

With a beta blocker you have to watch blood pressure but more importantly heart rate. I take coreg and it lowers my resting heart rate from 74 to 58ish.

Did you get Carvedilol as a prescription or are you just taking it from an online pharmacy or whatever?

 

[DonnieM]

Good info in here!

 

[pogue]

1. Terminalia Arjuna is an awesome protective measure for the left ventricle to help reduce the possibility of LVH commonly associated with steroid use. Not aware of any serious contraindications that you are speaking about in regards to anything the OP is taking.

Like all herbs it can be extracted in a variety of different methods and have varying degrees of quality that can cause the substance to act differently in the body. Check the examine.com article on it and make sure you're getting the higest quality extract you can if you decide to use it.

http://examine.com/supplements/Terminalia+arjuna/

Incidentally, I just posted this: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281864-wow-terminalia-arjuna.html

2. Anything that reduces blood pressure is cardio protective when on steroids to prevent lvh. L-Theanine does great at reducing stress thus reducing arterial pressures resulting in a decreased workload on the left ventricular preventing remodeling issues.

I wouldn't say that's true in any sense of the word. There are many benzodiazepines that can relax you but also be cardiotoxic. As far as I am seeing, theanine has very little data on any cardioprotective benefits.
http://examine.com/supplements/Theanine/

3. Testosterone causes water retention, we all no that. That is common. Dandelion root is not a diuretic like hctz and is potassium sparing in the sense that it contains very high amounts of potassium which is why it is contraindicated in ace inhibitors and aldactone use. You should not have to supplement with excess minerals. Again, reducing fluid retention will not only assist in a better physique, but will enhance blood pressure control. Most heavy steroid users on all the forums I am on are using an ACE or an ARB at all times in addition to hctz which is significantly stronger than dandelion root. I'd highly suggest looking into it. A low dose like 12.5mg hctz is a wonder drug on AAS. That dose alone should not pose any direct nephrotoxic effects. Increased uric acid levels may show up on blood work, but easily self resolves. Hctz requires initial potassium monitoring though so it is a tad more tricky unlike a far weaker dandelion root.

Show me the studies confirming this and I'll agree with you. If you're doing a heavy cycle of estrogenic androgens, you should expect to be bloated. No need for diuretics, herbal or medicinal during a steroid cycle unless you're pre-contest.

4. Aromasin I would highly suggest starting from the beginning at a very low dose. It is much much much easier to prevent rather than treat. Treating flare ups typically require much higher doses. I could easily prevent with 6.25mg ED but if I have to treat a flare up, its going to take 25mg min and a long while.

Are you arguing that AIs should be used throughout the entire cycle or what here? If you look at my last quote, I entirely disagree with that position if that's what you're trying to say.

5. The direct purpose of testabolan is to help free up bound inactive testosterone.

Oh, testobolan is a supplement. The study showing carnitine prevented AR receptor downregulation used L-Carnitine L-Tartrate at a rate of 2g a day. So you would need to double the dose for that, and ALCAR might not work for that regard.

http://examine.com/supplements/L-Carnitine/#summary9-0

I honestly thought the data on Stinging Nettle/Urtica dioica/3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran was better than what we have, but apparently it's vey poorly documented. Still, it can probably reduce SHBG to testosterone and increase more free testosterone. One quote I saw said 3,4 divanil in a dosage of 1200-1500mg/day, but had no references.

I did a search for LCLT and Urtica dioica but couldn't come up with anything. Maybe that's a good idea for a supplement company to make a better on cycle support to improve the performance of the androgens being used with only a few capsules.

http://examine.com/supplements/Stinging+Nettle/#summary2-0

I'll have to look more into the studies on this, because I'm quite sure there are better studies showing better effects, although I don't know at what dosages.

Naringin is an extract of citrus/grapefruit which would help improve oral bioavailability of oral steroids. Since juselliott is only using an injectable, this wouldn't benefit him much.

Not trying to dick ride SANN, but their MyoTest product also looks pretty good for that purpose. I was using Estrodex (reduced estrogen, less SHBG, and Calcium-D-Glucarate which is an interesting compound I'm trying to learn more about. and just double dosing Betancourt Nutrition L-Carnitine L-Tartrate for both those purposes.

I'm not trying to discredit all your suggestions, criticalbench, but I just disagree with you on some things. I especially think the dandelion root is a weird suggestion and I've never heard that one to anyone on cycle before. Unfortunately, examine.com doesn't have anthing on dandelion root, so if you wanted to continue the debate, I'd have to dig through the research myself. But if you know of something showing advantages of dandelion on cycle, feel free to share. IMO, the water bloat and excess weight is helping to carry extra nutrients to the muscle tissue , the same way creatine and NO products pump you up in the gym, it's sending all that extra protein/BCAAs into the muscle tissue where it can be utilized.

 

[uprightrows]

I would not suggest a beta blocker like metoprolol for blood pressure control. Arbs are significantly more valuable in steroid use. Beta blockers have to be tapered up and down and pose more of a risk than most other classes. Ace and arbs provide many other positives for steroid users than beta blockers and do a significantly better job when preventing lvh. The only beta blocker I'd suggest would be Coreg because of its additional alpha blocking properties, calcium channel blocking properties, anti-oxidant effects and its ability to directly dilate the aorta.

With a beta blocker you have to watch blood pressure but more importantly heart rate. I take coreg and it lowers my resting heart rate from 74 to 58ish.

All of this is true, you need to be careful if you go the beta blocker route for bp control, but it is extremely effective. I get the same heart rate drop, I have a pretty fast resting heart rate ~80-85 and it brings me to 60 when taking 50mg of metoprolol. And you are totally right about the tapering down, especially if you're on them for several weeks. Only problem with ACE inhibitors and especially lisinopril (the most common one) is that it pretty drastically lowers free T
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9877521
This is true of all ACE inhibitors to differing degrees, and to my understanding from articles I've read, most pharmaceutical drugs that directly effect angiotensin or its conversion. There are also a lot of questions regarding whether or not these drugs (ace inhibitors, specifically lisinopril) are renal protective or actually renal toxic when coadministered with anabolics.

In any case, I think I was a bit ahead of myself recommending a prescription drug for BP management if its his first cycle and he doesn't even necessarily have high bp issues. OP, you should probably just stick to OTC stuff for bp and monitor your hct if you can.

 

[juselliott]

Tons of great info much much appreciated hitting me with all this knowledge... so im in week 3 heres a small realistic live update...
Nothing noticeably growing yet as i know its early, but my strength is going ham, went from 90 lb dumbells inclining chest to knocking out the 120s today for reps i feel great pinning going well as i alternate quads,i went to med school so thats the easy part, eating like a beast everyday and clean,have on hand aromasin,not taken any yet, taking L-carnitine, CLA, Tribulus with my meals no side effects thus far, have nolvadex on hand and a otc pct supp for in the end...BP and everything health wise is also great

My thoughts are maybe combining some EQ on week 8 of the 12...has anyone got some good results from this..because im looking to lean hard when i come off..or any better suggestions maybe to stack with in the end to help with my leaning?

You guys are awesome ahead of time!! Thank You!

 

[criticalbench]

Be careful, injuries happen went your strength drastically increases!!! Your muscles get stronger fast, but tendons and ligaments do not.

 

[Smont]

I don't see any point in 4 weeks of eq, if your gonna throw that in extend the cycle a lil longer.

 

[criticalbench]

I don't see any point in 4 weeks of eq, if your gonna throw that in extend the cycle a lil longer.

Significantly longer. Eq needs 16+ weeks min

 

[juselliott]

Hmmm or any other suggestions in the end to maybe help lean me more?

 

[pogue]

Significantly longer. Eq needs 16+ weeks min

16 weeks of EQ? No, 8-10 weeks is perfectly fine.

 

[pogue]

Hmmm or any other suggestions in the end to maybe help lean me more?

Buy a copy of William Llewellyn's Anabolics e-Book for $10. It's going to teach you everything you need to know about AAS.

Anabolics E-Book Edition by William Llewellyn 2011