Test base for LGD

[The Express 42]

Just wondering what would be the best test base to keep libido up while on an 8-12 week cycle of LGD?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Dermacrine.

 

[The Express 42]

I have heard that using dermacrine as someone younger than about 30 will not be as effective, is there any truth to this?

 

[UncleSarm]

Is dermacrine suppressive?

 

[The Express 42]

From what I understand, it can be mildly suppressive but most likely none

 

[yates84]

I have heard that using dermacrine as someone younger than about 30 will not be as effective, is there any truth to this?

Not true. It will work for you young cats as well. Dermacrine is suppressive but is very very mild imo.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Not true. It will work for you young cats as well. Dermacrine is suppressive but is very very mild imo.

Mind explaining why it's suppressive? It's jsut DHEA and pregnenolone mixed with 2-3 AI's which should amp up your own production?

 

[dvw]

DHEA and pregenolone it contains are pro hormones

 

[The Express 42]

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

DHEA and progesterone it contains are pro hormones

They're the father and mother hormones yes, however is still endogenously producing the testosterone itself therefore the dhea would just cause your body to produce more of it's own testosterone, same way T-boosters work... and i would hardly call t-boosters prohormones.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

DHEA and progesterone it contains are pro hormones

Also it uses pregnenolone no progesterone.

 

[dvw]

I don't think Exogenous transdermal DHEA will increase body's own test production. And you are right pregnenolone, not progesterone

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I don't think Exogenous transdermal DHEA will increase body's own test production. And you are right pregnenolone, not progesterone

Well there you go, if it doesn't increase our tesosterone production how is it suppressive? DHEA and testosterone have an entirely different molecular structure so why would our body tell the HPTA to down regulate test when excess DHEA is present? Only down side i can see is the DHEA converting to estrogen and then Dermacrine has AI's in it so if anything it seems like it'd help the endrocrine system rather than disrupt, am i incorrect in thinking so?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Vitamin D can be considered a prohormone and isn't suppressive at all in fact it allows our body to create more endogenous test.

 

[dvw]

I think you just made my point, it's an Exogenous hormone that cause's down regulation of HPTA. The DHEA is said to covert to androstenedione/diol then to test

 

[dvw]

I don't think vitamin D is a pro hormone

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I think you just made my point, it's an Exogenous hormone that cause's down regulation of HPTA. The DHEA is said to covert to androstenedione/diol then to test

How does it cause down-regulation? It's the father hormone therefore your body uses it to makes its OWN hormones, Im not arguing simply trying to learn and appreciate any input.

 

[dvw]

I would just google exogenous hormone administration or something similar.

 

[Darlz]

Vitamin D is NOT a prohormone.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Vitamin D is NOT a prohormone.

I didn't say it IS one i said it can be CONSIDERED one.

 

[Darlz]

by who? Because everywhere else its considered a Vitamin.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

by who? Because everywhere else its considered a Vitamin.

It is not a prohormone but is synthesized into one,
Vitamin D is carried in the bloodstream to the liver, where it is converted into the prohormone calcidiol. Circulating calcidiol may then be converted into calcitriol, the biologically active form of vitamin D, in the kidneys. Following the final converting step in the kidney, calcitriol is released into the circulation. By binding to vitamin D-binding protein, a carrier protein in the plasma, calcitriol is transported to various target organs.[14] In addition to the kidneys, calcitriol is also synthesized by monocyte-macrophages in the immune system. When synthesized by monocyte-macrophages, calcitriol acts locally as a cytokine, defending the body against microbial invaders by stimulating the innate immune system.[113]

Whether it is made in the skin or ingested, cholecalciferol is hydroxylated in the liver at position 25 (upper right of the molecule) to form 25-hydroxycholecalciferol (calcidiol or 25(OH)D). This reaction is catalyzed by the microsomal enzyme vitamin D 25-hydroxylase,[114] which is produced by hepatocytes. Once made, the product is released into the plasma, where it is bound to an α-globulin, vitamin D-binding protein.[115]

Calcidiol is transported to the proximal tubules of the kidneys, where it is hydroxylated at the 1-α position (lower right of the molecule) to form calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol and abbreviated to 1,25(OH)2D). This product is a potent ligand of the vitamin D receptor, which mediates most of the physiological actions of the vitamin. The conversion of calcidiol to calcitriol is catalyzed by the enzyme 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 1-alpha-hydroxylase, the levels of which are increased by parathyroid hormone (and additionally by low calcium or phosphate)

 

[Darlz]

What is Vitamin D?: Untangling the Confusions
Although some carelessly worded studies and official nutrition committee reports in both the US and Europe casually claim that Vitamin D is more of a hormone than a nutrient, this is in error and regrettably an all too common misconception, and stems from failure to differentiate the nature and function of various Vitamin D-related compounds like ergocalciferol, cholecalciferol, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, 25-hydroxy-VitaminD, and the shorthand terms calcitriol and calcidiol (distinguished below).

The preeminent Vitamin D researcher and expert Ronald Vieth, one of the "fathers" of modern Vitamin D theory, at the University of Toronto, critically shed light on these issues in his now landmark paper "Why "Vitamin D" is Not a Hormone"1, and I have extended and adopted his distinctions below for the sake of accessibility and clarity. However definite his analysis is, I will nonetheless before closing this discussion introduce one non-trivial point of disagreement that I think deserves mention as a compromise perspective that more fully and clinically realistically captures the current sense of Vitamin D..

The Facts
First we have Vitamin D which is referent to either Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) or Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol). Vitamin D is the structural raw material that one or more hormones or prehormones (not prohormones) are made from, and meets the strict definition of a vitamin, namely an organic substance present in minute amounts in the natural diet (foodstuffs, not supplements) that is essential to normal metabolism, and insufficient amounts of which in the diet may cause deficiency diseases. Vitamin D itself (whether D3 or D2) is not a hormone which is strictly defined as a substance formed in one organ but transported in the blood to another organ and capable of altering the functional activity of that target organ1. In addition, the set of compounds derived from the cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3) molecule are known as secosteroids.

This excerpt is from Dr. Constantine Kaniklidis, Whom is currently a director of Medical Research for the No Surrender Breast cancer foundation ..

 

[Darlz]

The Vitamin D process involves roughly that:
(1) the liver readily hydroxylates vitamin D – using cytochrome P450 enzymes –in to 25(OH)D, the primary circulating form of vitamin D,
(2) then the kidney further hydroxylates 25(OH)D into the active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D which is also referred to as 1,25(OH)2D, which then acts to maintain serum calcium through sequential direct effects on calcium absorption and excretion, and through a complex series of inter-relationships with serum phosphate and parathyroid hormone.

But there are two hormonally-active substances, known as (fat-soluble) secosteroids, derived - and distinct - from Vitamin D (either D2 or D3), these being:

(1) 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) which is a calcium-regulating hormone, an adaptive hormone produced in response to calcium deficiency, it functions the same way as other steroid hormones, namely by interacting with its cognate vitamin D receptor (VDR);
(2) 25-hydroxy-VitaminD which is a prehormone (not a prohormone), a glandular secretory product, having minimal or no inherent biologic potency, that is converted peripherally to an active hormone.

However, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) which is the metabolic product of vitamin D, is itself a potent, pleiotropic repair and maintenance secosteroid hormone acting as a a molecular switch targeting over two hundred known human genes across a wide variety of tissues2, and functions as an adaptive hormone (being produced in response to calcium deficiency).

The actions of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) are mediated by the Vitamin D receptor (VDR), a ligand-activated transcription factor that functions to control gene expression, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) thus serving as a transcriptional regulator of various genes2. Indeed, recent data shows that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (aka, 1,25(OH)2D)-activated VDR modulates the expression of genes at both single gene loci and also at the level of gene networks3,4,5.

Given, as I have demonstrated above, that:
(1) Vitamin D is a vitamin, with
(2) 25-hydroxy-VitaminD being a prehormone (a glandular secretory product converted peripherally to an active hormone, namely 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol); while
(3) 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) is a secosteroid hormone functioning as a a molecular switch which is known to target over two hundred known human genes, and thus serves as a transcriptional gene regulator,

then I would argue that we need to construe Vitamin D itself as something more than a vitamin but less than a strict hormone (that function being reserved for 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol)), in order to reflect and accommodate its gene transcriptional regulator functions, and so it would be more clarifying to speak of Vitamin D as not a simple vitamin, but rather as a biomodulator vitamin, a vitamin which exerts transcriptional regulation of genes at the molecular pathway level.

Summary
- Vitamin D itself - neither cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3) nor ergocalciferol (Vitamin D2) - is not a hormone, but rather a biomodulator vitamin (capable of gene regulation);
- the primary active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) is a calcium-regulating hormone;
- the primary circulating non-active form 25-hydroxy-VitaminD is a prehormone, converted peripherally to the active hormone 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol).

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

The Vitamin D process involves roughly that:
(1) the liver readily hydroxylates vitamin D – using cytochrome P450 enzymes –in to 25(OH)D, the primary circulating form of vitamin D,
(2) then the kidney further hydroxylates 25(OH)D into the active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D which is also referred to as 1,25(OH)2D, which then acts to maintain serum calcium through sequential direct effects on calcium absorption and excretion, and through a complex series of inter-relationships with serum phosphate and parathyroid hormone.

But there are two hormonally-active substances, known as (fat-soluble) secosteroids, derived - and distinct - from Vitamin D (either D2 or D3), these being:

(1) 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) which is a calcium-regulating hormone, an adaptive hormone produced in response to calcium deficiency, it functions the same way as other steroid hormones, namely by interacting with its cognate vitamin D receptor (VDR);
(2) 25-hydroxy-VitaminD which is a prehormone (not a prohormone), a glandular secretory product, having minimal or no inherent biologic potency, that is converted peripherally to an active hormone.

However, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) which is the metabolic product of vitamin D, is itself a potent, pleiotropic repair and maintenance secosteroid hormone acting as a a molecular switch targeting over two hundred known human genes across a wide variety of tissues2, and functions as an adaptive hormone (being produced in response to calcium deficiency).

The actions of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) are mediated by the Vitamin D receptor (VDR), a ligand-activated transcription factor that functions to control gene expression, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) thus serving as a transcriptional regulator of various genes2. Indeed, recent data shows that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (aka, 1,25(OH)2D)-activated VDR modulates the expression of genes at both single gene loci and also at the level of gene networks3,4,5.

Given, as I have demonstrated above, that:
(1) Vitamin D is a vitamin, with
(2) 25-hydroxy-VitaminD being a prehormone (a glandular secretory product converted peripherally to an active hormone, namely 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol); while
(3) 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) is a secosteroid hormone functioning as a a molecular switch which is known to target over two hundred known human genes, and thus serves as a transcriptional gene regulator,

then I would argue that we need to construe Vitamin D itself as something more than a vitamin but less than a strict hormone (that function being reserved for 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol)), in order to reflect and accommodate its gene transcriptional regulator functions, and so it would be more clarifying to speak of Vitamin D as not a simple vitamin, but rather as a biomodulator vitamin, a vitamin which exerts transcriptional regulation of genes at the molecular pathway level.

Summary
- Vitamin D itself - neither cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3) nor ergocalciferol (Vitamin D2) - is not a hormone, but rather a biomodulator vitamin (capable of gene regulation);
- the primary active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol) is a calcium-regulating hormone;
- the primary circulating non-active form 25-hydroxy-VitaminD is a prehormone, converted peripherally to the active hormone 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (calcitriol).

So in Essence my initial statement of it being "Like/Considered" a pro-hormone has some true holding, as does your statement that it's a vitamin. However both of our initial statements are incorrect as you've stated it's more than a vitamin, less than a hormone and in fact is a "Biomodulator Vitamin." Thank you for the read, I always enjoy expanding i'm aware this has actually been a controversial topic. More excerpts to add to my log. Reps.

 

[Darlz]

Same here. Ive actually heard Vitamin D referred to as a prohormone before because of the conversion to calicdiol and then to calictriol.. After the convo, I was curious myself and came across this study. So technically we are both wrong... sort of ... But Im here simply to learn and share what Ive learned from others. Cheers.

 

[UncleSarm]

Wow, thanks YoungBodyBuil & Darlz for sharing this info. I had read that Vitamin D helped increase T levels, but this was a great read. Reps to both.