Using Epistane as AI

[lmaosuine]

Hey guys,

I'm about to start my first cycle - Test E 250mg 2x/week. I ordered adex for the AI. The only issue is, I don't think the amount of adex I ordered will be sufficient to last throughout my whole cycle (~10-12 weeks).

Recently, I came across an old bottle of epistane that I finished about 3/4 of. There are 16 pills left at 15 mg each. I was just looking for feedback on this plan, and whether or not it's a good idea.

Week 1 - test injections on tuesday and thursday(maybe friday)? No AI yet.
Week 2 - Begin taking one 15mg epistane pill every day to act as an AI.
However many weeks later it would be after the epistane runs out - use adex EOD for the remainder of the cycle.

1 week after last injection - start taking Clomid at whatever the suggested dosage is, I'll have to recheck that.

Feedback pls?

 

[SonnyAz]

Too close on injection times. I go Sunday Morning and then on Wednesday night. Everyone does it different but you want to try to split the week up to stabilize blood levels.

 

[lmaosuine]

Oh ok, thanks, that's relevant and helpful. I've seen lots of people say tues/ thurs, but sunday morning/wednesday night does seem to be more evenly spaced. I'm all for that - thank you for the suggestion! I'll definitely implement it into my cycle when I start.

 

[yates84]

Epistane is not an ai and I would not count on it as such. You are gonna need an ai to run past when you stop the test, it's effects will stick around for a few weeks after you stop the test. I would just suck it up and order more adex if you want to keep things legit.

 

[lmaosuine]

Oh so I'm going to want an AI for PCT as well? I did not realize that.

The bottle of epistane claims it's "anti estrogenic" but I guess that's not necessarily 1. true, and 2. the same as an aromatase inhibitor.

Thanks for the input, I had a feeling I was going to get an answer along the lines of "**** no", so thank you for taking the time to answer me.

I'll be ordering more adex then!

Final question: the only reason I ordered adex instead of asin in the first place was because my supplier only had adex. Would you recommend, if I'm having to buy more AIs anyways, that I should try to get aromasin this time?

 

[yates84]

Oh so I'm going to want an AI for PCT as well? I did not realize that.

The bottle of epistane claims it's "anti estrogenic" but I guess that's not necessarily 1. true, and 2. the same as an aromatase inhibitor.

Thanks for the input, I had a feeling I was going to get an answer along the lines of "**** no", so thank you for taking the time to answer me.

I'll be ordering more adex then!

Final question: the only reason I ordered adex instead of asin in the first place was because my supplier only had adex. Would you recommend, if I'm having to buy more AIs anyways, that I should try to get aromasin this time?

Exemestane (aromasin) is a suicidal ai where adex isn't and exemestane is also easier on lipids during long term use. I only use exemestane but adex is still a widely used and acceptable ai for on cycle and pct use.

 

[lmaosuine]

Thanks for the response. I'll have to do some research into what "suicidal ai" means and the differences between adex and asin. Instead of asking you guys like a retard, when the answers are probably readily available via a quick google search.

I just couldn't find anything on google about using epistane as an AI on cycle, so I asked the question. Thanks for not ripping my head off for being a noob everyone

 

[yates84]

Thanks for the response. I'll have to do some research into what "suicidal ai" means and the differences between adex and asin. Instead of asking you guys like a retard, when the answers are probably readily available via a quick google search.

I just couldn't find anything on google about using epistane as an AI on cycle, so I asked the question. Thanks for not ripping my head off for being a noob everyone

Suicidal ai binds to the aromatase enzyme, permanently stopping it's ability to take effect on testosterone where adex does not have a permanent bond to aromatase. Because of this adex has the possibility of rebound estrogen sides where exem really doesn't.

 

[lmaosuine]

Wow, thanks for explaining anyways. You da real MVP yates84 :shysmile:

 

[pogue]

Actually, Epiandro, being DHT based, might actually work to reduce some forms of estrogen in the body. This would be similar to the way Proviron works. They even convert via the same pathway to and from their active hormones via the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme. Not to mention their molecular structures are very similar.

Unfortunately, 15mg of epiandro just isn't going to cut it for what you're looking to do with it.

It's pretty late, and I'm exhausted, but shoot me a PM tomorrow and I'll see if I can find some data that supports epiandro acting to reduce estrogen in the body. I see a lot of websites that make this claim when I search Google, but they don't have any references to back this up. But, in theory, elevated levels of DHT should reduce estrogen in the body (through a mechanism I'm too tired to explain right now).

 

[lmaosuine]

Wow, thanks! I'll be sure to pm you.

 

[lmaosuine]

What if I made the Epistane twice a day, so 30mg/day - mainly just to kick start the cycle. Would that do the trick for the time it lasted?

 

[pogue]

What if I made the Epistane twice a day, so 30mg/day - mainly just to kick start the cycle. Would that do the trick for the time it lasted?

If you're just trying to get rid of the stuff, it couldn't hurt. But, to really get rid of the estrogenic sides with a DHT based substance you'd need like 200+mg/day most likely.

Are you really sensitive to estrogen? Because if not, estrogen provides some very positive benefits on cycle and it would be beneficial to leave them be unless you are predisposed to gyno or are trying to avoid bloat.

As William Llewellyn says in his Anabolics book

Avoid Aromatase Inhibitors. Aromatase-inhibiting drugs counter estrogenic side effects by preventing the production of estrogen in the body. While an effective practice, they also deprive the body of a hormone that is important to cardiovascular health. In particular, estrogen supports the production of good (HDL) cholesterol, which means that aromatase inhibitors may inadvertently increase the cardiovascular strain of a steroid cycle. If estrogenic side effects are apparent and a reduction or elimination of the offending steroid(s) is not considered an option, the SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) drug Nolvadex could be used instead. This drug offers partial estrogenic action in the liver, which may allow
it to counterer estrogenic side effects without the same negative shift in cholesterol.

Source: Anabolics E-Book Edition by William Llewellyn 2011

Estrogen also has other positive benefits such as increased GH/IGF and promoting glycogen storage

Although estrogen is treated as the arch enemy of the bodybuilder, estrogen imparts positive effects in the form of increased growth hormone and IGF-1 release,[6] as well as improved glycogen storage and glucose uptake into the muscles – allowing for more stamina in the gym and better recovery.[7]

https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/19-nor-dhea

 

[yates84]

Actually, Epiandro, being DHT based, might actually work to reduce some forms of estrogen in the body. This would be similar to the way Proviron works. They even convert via the same pathway to and from their active hormones via the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme. Not to mention their molecular structures are very similar.

Unfortunately, 15mg of epiandro just isn't going to cut it for what you're looking to do with it.

It's pretty late, and I'm exhausted, but shoot me a PM tomorrow and I'll see if I can find some data that supports epiandro acting to reduce estrogen in the body. I see a lot of websites that make this claim when I search Google, but they don't have any references to back this up. But, in theory, elevated levels of DHT should reduce estrogen in the body (through a mechanism I'm too tired to explain right now).

Yeah, dht competes with estrogen at the receptor but you shouldn't count on it as your sole ai, especially with something like testosterone. Having not enough actual ai and trying to count on epistane is not a smart idea, I'm sure you agree.

 

[yates84]

Wow, thanks! I'll be sure to pm you.

Dude is a book of knowledge, I would definitely take him up on his offer.

 

[heavylifter33]

Hey guys,

I'm about to start my first cycle - Test E 250mg 2x/week. I ordered adex for the AI. The only issue is, I don't think the amount of adex I ordered will be sufficient to last throughout my whole cycle (~10-12 weeks).

Recently, I came across an old bottle of epistane that I finished about 3/4 of. There are 16 pills left at 15 mg each. I was just looking for feedback on this plan, and whether or not it's a good idea.

Week 1 - test injections on tuesday and thursday(maybe friday)? No AI yet.
Week 2 - Begin taking one 15mg epistane pill every day to act as an AI.
However many weeks later it would be after the epistane runs out - use adex EOD for the remainder of the cycle.

1 week after last injection - start taking Clomid at whatever the suggested dosage is, I'll have to recheck that.

Feedback pls?

If you're going to inject anabolics, do it right. Don't just order 1 bottle of AI and then throw a PH in because you don't want to order another AI. Order enough Aromasin or Arimidex to last your cycle or don't cycle. EPI =/= an AI.

I'll echo a bit of what Pogue said, and add a tick more.

Our goal is not to crush estrogen, that's not good, as estrogen (in proper amounts) is good for the body and good for muscle building. Simply because you decide to pin 500mg of test a week doesn't mean it's time to crush AIs ED or EOD. The protocol for AI use is: use when needed. I'm in the camp that says: AI use on cycle when necessary, SERM use on cycle when chit hits the fan and maybe gyno is incoming. SERM use on cycle, to me, is kind of a last resort. Now, i could look in to things again as it's been a while since i've looked at AI and SERM mechanisms and there could be things i missed.

 

[Woody]

If you're just trying to get rid of the stuff, it couldn't hurt. But, to really get rid of the estrogenic sides with a DHT based substance you'd need like 200+mg/day most likely.

Epistane not EpiAndro. 200mg of Epistane will probably destroy someone's liver.

 

[delsolrob]

Actually, Epiandro, being DHT based, might actually work to reduce some forms of estrogen in the body. This would be similar to the way Proviron works. They even convert via the same pathway to and from their active hormones via the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme. Not to mention their molecular structures are very similar.

Unfortunately, 15mg of epiandro just isn't going to cut it for what you're looking to do with it.

It's pretty late, and I'm exhausted, but shoot me a PM tomorrow and I'll see if I can find some data that supports epiandro acting to reduce estrogen in the body. I see a lot of websites that make this claim when I search Google, but they don't have any references to back this up. But, in theory, elevated levels of DHT should reduce estrogen in the body (through a mechanism I'm too tired to explain right now).

I think there's some confusion here between epistane and epiandrosterone.

Epistane, while 5a reduced, does not convert to actual DHT...despite some myths, it does not help manage estrogen.

Epiandrosterone does convert to DHT and is known to help mitigate some estrogenic sides...it's also pretty darn cheap! but, most users run it in the 500+mg/day.

 

[yates84]

If you're going to inject anabolics, do it right. Don't just order 1 bottle of AI and then throw a PH in because you don't want to order another AI. Order enough Aromasin or Arimidex to last your cycle or don't cycle. EPI =/= an AI.

I'll echo a bit of what Pogue said, and add a tick more.

Our goal is not to crush estrogen, that's not good, as estrogen (in proper amounts) is good for the body and good for muscle building. Simply because you decide to pin 500mg of test a week doesn't mean it's time to crush AIs ED or EOD. The protocol for AI use is: use when needed. I'm in the camp that says: AI use on cycle when necessary, SERM use on cycle when chit hits the fan and maybe gyno is incoming. SERM use on cycle, to me, is kind of a last resort. Now, i could look in to things again as it's been a while since i've looked at AI and SERM mechanisms and there could be things i missed.

That's how I roll, ai as needed and nolva when things are going down hill fast. 10mg of nolva eod seems to manage any potential gyno for me.

 

[pogue]

Oh, my mistake. I thought he was talking about Epiandrosterone.