Critique my cycle of 1/4 andro

splatsc300

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Hey guys, first post, long time lurker.

I am 35yrs old 190lbs 5'10. Been lifting on and off for 3 years, but recently became serious with it.

I have tried 1 andro last year and really enjoyed it so I was thinking of stacking it with 4 andro. So hopefully my notes are right with what I have been reading. Trying to be simple.

So does this look okay?


Cycle:
1 andro 330/330/330/330/330/330/330/330
4 andro 330/330/330/330/330/330/330/330
Blockade all 8 weeks

PCT:
Clomid 20/20/10/10 (do I need to run this longer?)
BLR Viron
BSL Eradicate if needed
SNS Reduce XT for cortisol 0/0/3/3/3

Thanks
 

NewAgeMayan

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Did you use clomid following your 1andro run last year? Id personally dose it higher ie 50x2, 25x2
 

splatsc300

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No I did not, I ran a low dose of the 1 andro and just ran a otc pct.

I also read dosing at 50x2 and 25x2 can cause some emotional effects. I have not read deep into that yet, though.
 
pogue

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You need to run an AI with 4andro (4DHEA). It converts to estrogen more than it does testosterone.
 

splatsc300

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Need it or keep it on hand? I have read mixed opinions about actually needing an AI with 1/4 andro.

I have the eradicate which is an AI.
 
pogue

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Need it or keep it on hand? I have read mixed opinions about actually needing an AI with 1/4 andro.

I have the eradicate which is an AI.
You need a real RX AI on 4andro. I've read the studies, and they are not looking good for 4andro. It converts to androstenedione and androstenediol, and if you go through the data on it, it basically has no benefits unless you run a real AI with it (and even then I'm skeptical).

The Andro Project: physiological and hormonal influences of androstenedione supplementation in men 35 to 65 years old participating in a high-intensity resistance training program.
Broeder CE1, Quindry J, Brittingham K, Panton L, Thomson J, Appakondu S, Breuel K, Byrd R, Douglas J, Earnest C, Mitchell C, Olson M, Roy T, Yarlagadda C.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Since the passage of The Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act in 1994, there has been a flood of new "dietary" supplements promoting anti-aging benefits such as the enhancement of growth hormone or testosterone levels. Androstenediol and androstenedione are such products. This study's purpose was to elucidate the physiological and hormonal effects of 200 mg/d of oral androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation in men aged 35 to 65 years while participating in a 12-week high-intensity resistance training program.
METHODS:
Fifty men not consuming any androgenic-enhancing substances and with normal total testosterone levels, prostate-specific antigen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit, and with no sign of cardiovascular or metabolic diseases participated. Subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo, androstenediol (diol), or androstenedione (dione) group using a double-blind study design. Main outcomes included serum sex hormone profile, body composition assessment, muscular strength, and blood lipid profiles.
RESULTS:
During the 12 weeks of androstenedione or androstenediol use, a significant increase in the aromatization by-products estrone and estradiol was observed in both groups (P =.03). In the dione group, total testosterone levels significantly increased 16% after 1 month of use, but by the end of 12 weeks, they returned to pretreatment levels. This return to baseline levels resulted from increases in aromatization and down-regulation in endogenous testosterone synthesis based on the fact that luteinizing hormone was attenuated 18% to 33% during the treatment period. Neither androstenediol nor androstenedione enhanced the adaptations to resistance training compared with placebo for body composition or muscular strength. However, both androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation adversely affected high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels, coronary heart disease risk (representing a 6.5% increase), and each group's respective (low-density lipoprotein cholesterol [LDL-C]/HDL-C)/(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein B) lipid ratio (diol: +5.2%; dione: +10.5%; P =.05). In contrast, the placebo group's HDL-C levels increased 5.1%, with a 12.3% decline in the (LDL-C/HDL-C)/(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein B) lipid ratio. These negative and positive lipid effects occurred despite no significant alterations in body composition or dietary intakes in the supplemental groups or placebo group, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Testosterone precursors do not enhance adaptations to resistance training when consumed in dosages recommended by manufacturers. Testosterone precursor supplementation does result in significant increases in estrogen-related compounds, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate concentrations, down-regulation in testosterone synthesis, and unfavorable alterations in blood lipid and coronary heart disease risk profiles of men aged 35 to 65 years.
PMID: 11074738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
And that's just one of the problems with it.
 

NewAgeMayan

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I think Id agree that, by itself, 4andro might prove of little benefit for most of us here. Wouldnt this change, though, with the introduction of 1andro and key parameters being altered as a result?
 
pogue

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I think Id agree that, by itself, 4andro might prove of little benefit for most of us here. Wouldnt this change, though, with the introduction of 1andro and key parameters being altered as a result?
Well, the other problem with running both "andros" together is they are competing for enzymes to make the conversion to their parent hormones. Both hormones take up 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to make the conversion to their dione and diol counterparts and those are finite resources that will become saturated and will stop converting to their parent hormones after a certain amount (what that amount is, we don't know exactly). Then when you stack both together, you're getting less of both testosterone and 1-testosterone overall. Unlike AAS where you can just keep upping the dosage and getting better results, prohormones don't have those properties.
 

NewAgeMayan

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Well, the other problem with running both "andros" together is they are competing for enzymes to make the conversion to their parent hormones. Both hormones take up 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to make the conversion to their dione and diol counterparts and those are finite resources that will become saturated and will stop converting to their parent hormones after a certain amount (what that amount is, we don't know exactly). Then when you stack both together, you're getting less of both testosterone and 1-testosterone overall. Unlike AAS where you can just keep upping the dosage and getting better results, prohormones don't have those properties.
For sure, and your post highlights just how much of an imbalance exists between specific/relevant data on the use of these compounds, and the greater proportion of conjecture and theory surrounding them. At that point we obviously have to just dose them as best we see fit and let empirical feedback mould theory. You a fan of Feynman? You strike me as someone who has a certain affinity with his "Shut up and calculate!"

Regarding the point about conversion resources being finite. Our recommendation (for other reasons, too) has always been to space doses. I think it logically plausible that, if conversion is a process that can involve saturation or an 'upper limit', by spacing doses we can minimise overwhelming this process and perhaps best allow for resources to replenish before being utilised again with a subsequent dose.

This tactic will not entirely overcome conversion limitations of course, but, it would seem a decent strategy for maximising conversion potential.
 
pogue

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You guys should run blood tests on testers of the DHEA derivatives. I've found several that will find the majority of the metabolites created by these compounds.

But there is 1 other serious problem with androstenedione that I'll post later this evening.
 

NewAgeMayan

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That is certainly something we have been looking into doing in conjunction with another business.
 
pogue

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Anyway, the second big problem with 4DHEA and it is a BIG one is that androstenedione (one of it's metabolites) has been shown to inhibit protein synthesis, which is the exact opposite of what you would want an anabolic steroid to do.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Jan;85(1):55-9.
Androstenedione does not stimulate muscle protein anabolism in young healthy men.
Rasmussen BB1, Volpi E, Gore DC, Wolfe RR.

Abstract

Androstenedione is the immediate precursor of testosterone. Androstenedione intake has been speculated to increase plasma testosterone levels and muscle anabolism. Thus, androstenedione supplements have become widely popular in the sport community to improve performance. This study was designed to determine whether 5 days of oral androstenedione (100 mg/day) supplementation increases skeletal muscle anabolism. Six healthy young men were studied before the treatment period and after 5 days of oral androstenedione supplementation. Muscle protein turnover parameters were compared to those of a control group studied twice as well and receiving no treatment. We measured muscle protein kinetics using a three-compartment model involving infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, blood sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies. Plasma testosterone, androstenedione, LH, and estradiol concentrations were determined by RIA. After ingestion of oral androstenedione, plasma testosterone and LH concentrations did not change from basal, whereas plasma androstenedione and estradiol concentrations were significantly increased (P<0.05). Compared to a control group, androstenedione did not affect muscle protein synthesis and breakdown, or phenylalanine net balance across the leg. We conclude that oral androstenedione does not increase plasma testosterone concentrations and has no anabolic effect on muscle protein metabolism in young eugonadal men.
PMID: 10634363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
From the full text of the article:

Although there was a trend for muscle protein synthesis to increase, no significant differences were found between androstenedione and control groups using two different methods (three-pool model and precursor-product approach). On the contrary, there was a trend for muscle protein breakdown to be elevated, which was entirely attributable to androstenedione intake. The trend for an increase in protein breakdown after androstenedione treatment may have been the consequence of the increase in estradiol. In fact, it has been reported that long term exposure to estrogens decreases muscle fiber size in rats (22). Overall, the trend for an increase in both protein breakdown and synthesis indicates that androstenedione tended to increase muscle protein turnover. However, the increased turnover did not lead to muscle protein anabolism, as the increase in protein breakdown exceeded the increase in protein synthesis. A similar situation takes place in catabolic states such as sepsis or burn injury, in which muscle protein breakdown is significantly elevated.
So, in the study, healthy young men with perfectly normal gonads and testosterone production who took 100mg of 4-androstenedione actually had impeded protein synthesis and were in a full catabolic, muscle wasting state.

If that isn't enough to make anyone say they wouldn't want to use 4DHEA I don't know what else to say. If you insist on using it, an RX AI like Aromasin or Arimidex daily or EOD would be required. The authors of the study theorize that because of the extremely poor oral bioavailability of androstenedione it's just converting straight to estrogen in the liver. So, a better delivery system might help -- and regardless of who claims to have the best delivery system for their oral 4DHEA products, I say put up or shut up. Let's see the test results from a study. Otherwise, go with an AI.

My recommendation would be to avoid 4DHEA altogether and instead if you wanted to stack another andro with 1DHEA, 1,4DHEA might be the better option. 1,4andro both dione and diol don't convert much to estrogen and if they do, it's a much milder form. It's very similar to testosterone, as it's based off it, and should have similar effects - plus a few added benefits like increased appetite which is great for bulking.
 

Hastur

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I would not recommend a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro, you would more than likely crash your Estrogen. There are essentially no reports of estrogenic side effects experienced from 4-Andro usage, real-life reports do not show issues such as sensitive nipples, gynecomastia, water retention or bloating. Theoretically these are possible, but judging by the logs this is not a real life issue. Also, we have anecdotal reports regarding the effectiveness of 4-Andro in increasing Testosterone levels:

"One SUP3R-4 customer was previously on TRT for 7 years, using 200mg Testosterone Cypionate once per week, which resulted in Total Testosterone levels typically ranging between 600-750 ng/dl (nanograms per decilitre) as shown by blood work. Then he used 3 capsules totaling 330mg daily of the oral Testosterone precursor SUP3R-4 enhanced with S-SEDDS. He spaced out the dosing with one capsule in the morning, one capsule in the afternoon and one capsule in the evening, and in just 4 weeks he actually exceeded the levels he had while on TRT by 115-275 ng/dl, achieving a jaw-dropping total Testosterone level of a 875 ng/dl as shown by blood work. Levels so high that his Doctor actually told him to reduce his dosage of Testosterone, under assumption the man was still on TRT, but the man hadn't been on Testosterone in 4 months."
Further more, on this study:

You need a real RX AI on 4andro. I've read the studies, and they are not going looking at 4andro. It converts to androstenedione and androstenediol, and if you go through the data on it, it basically has no benefits unless you run a real AI with it (and even then I'm skeptical).

The Andro Project: physiological and hormonal influences of androstenedione supplementation in men 35 to 65 years old participating in a high-intensity resistance training program.
Broeder CE1, Quindry J, Brittingham K, Panton L, Thomson J, Appakondu S, Breuel K, Byrd R, Douglas J, Earnest C, Mitchell C, Olson M, Roy T, Yarlagadda C.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Since the passage of The Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act in 1994, there has been a flood of new "dietary" supplements promoting anti-aging benefits such as the enhancement of growth hormone or testosterone levels. Androstenediol and androstenedione are such products. This study's purpose was to elucidate the physiological and hormonal effects of 200 mg/d of oral androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation in men aged 35 to 65 years while participating in a 12-week high-intensity resistance training program.
METHODS:
Fifty men not consuming any androgenic-enhancing substances and with normal total testosterone levels, prostate-specific antigen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit, and with no sign of cardiovascular or metabolic diseases participated. Subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo, androstenediol (diol), or androstenedione (dione) group using a double-blind study design. Main outcomes included serum sex hormone profile, body composition assessment, muscular strength, and blood lipid profiles.
RESULTS:
During the 12 weeks of androstenedione or androstenediol use, a significant increase in the aromatization by-products estrone and estradiol was observed in both groups (P =.03). In the dione group, total testosterone levels significantly increased 16% after 1 month of use, but by the end of 12 weeks, they returned to pretreatment levels. This return to baseline levels resulted from increases in aromatization and down-regulation in endogenous testosterone synthesis based on the fact that luteinizing hormone was attenuated 18% to 33% during the treatment period. Neither androstenediol nor androstenedione enhanced the adaptations to resistance training compared with placebo for body composition or muscular strength. However, both androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation adversely affected high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels, coronary heart disease risk (representing a 6.5% increase), and each group's respective (low-density lipoprotein cholesterol [LDL-C]/HDL-C)/(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein B) lipid ratio (diol: +5.2%; dione: +10.5%; P =.05). In contrast, the placebo group's HDL-C levels increased 5.1%, with a 12.3% decline in the (LDL-C/HDL-C)/(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein B) lipid ratio. These negative and positive lipid effects occurred despite no significant alterations in body composition or dietary intakes in the supplemental groups or placebo group, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Testosterone precursors do not enhance adaptations to resistance training when consumed in dosages recommended by manufacturers. Testosterone precursor supplementation does result in significant increases in estrogen-related compounds, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate concentrations, down-regulation in testosterone synthesis, and unfavorable alterations in blood lipid and coronary heart disease risk profiles of men aged 35 to 65 years.
PMID: 11074738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And that's just one of the problems with it.
This conclusion is a bit too 'absolute' in its terms. A 16% increase in Testosterone levels over baseline is significant. The fact that the body reaches homeostasis after 12-weeks is not surprising at all... Of course you'd have an increase in aromatization and down-regulation of the HPTA after 3 months (12-weeks). But people who use 4-Andro are using it as a Test base, so they are already going to be suppressed from the use of other compounds, and rarely do oral-only cycles reach 12-weeks in length. So this study does not justify the use of a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro.

Well, the other problem with running both "andros" together is they are competing for enzymes to make the conversion to their parent hormones. Both hormones take up 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase to make the conversion to their dione and diol counterparts and those are finite resources that will become saturated and will stop converting to their parent hormones after a certain amount (what that amount is, we don't know exactly). Then when you stack both together, you're getting less of both testosterone and 1-testosterone overall. Unlike AAS where you can just keep upping the dosage and getting better results, prohormones don't have those properties.
This is similar to when people say that you can over-saturate the Androgen Receptor. It's hypothetical, and extremely unlikely. There is zero proof that using several precursors which require conversion will use all available enzymes and leave you with less of the target hormone due to competition. Again, real world results run counter to this hypothesis, because we have seen multiple people get results from stacking multiple prohormones that require conversion. So we have to step back yet again and ask, even if this does occur on some level, does it have a real world impact?

I'd like to see blood work with these compounds alone, not in conjunction with other steroids. It's relatively cheap to pay for and would take away a lot of doubts surrounding these DHEA derivatives and how much they convert to estrogen, test, nandrolone, boldenone and 1-testosterone.
I would too, but it is not cheap to test for Nandrolone, Boldenone or '1-Testosterone' (Dihydroboldenone). Obviously Testosterone and Estrogen can be tested for rather cost effectively, but the others are not tested for in blood work outside of studies that have been done specifically on these compounds.

Anyway, the second big problem with 4DHEA and it is a BIG one is that androstenedione (one of it's metabolites) has been shown to inhibit protein synthesis, which is the exact opposite of what you would want an anabolic steroid to do.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Jan;85(1):55-9.
Androstenedione does not stimulate muscle protein anabolism in young healthy men.
Rasmussen BB1, Volpi E, Gore DC, Wolfe RR.

Abstract

Androstenedione is the immediate precursor of testosterone. Androstenedione intake has been speculated to increase plasma testosterone levels and muscle anabolism. Thus, androstenedione supplements have become widely popular in the sport community to improve performance. This study was designed to determine whether 5 days of oral androstenedione (100 mg/day) supplementation increases skeletal muscle anabolism. Six healthy young men were studied before the treatment period and after 5 days of oral androstenedione supplementation. Muscle protein turnover parameters were compared to those of a control group studied twice as well and receiving no treatment. We measured muscle protein kinetics using a three-compartment model involving infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, blood sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies. Plasma testosterone, androstenedione, LH, and estradiol concentrations were determined by RIA. After ingestion of oral androstenedione, plasma testosterone and LH concentrations did not change from basal, whereas plasma androstenedione and estradiol concentrations were significantly increased (P<0.05). Compared to a control group, androstenedione did not affect muscle protein synthesis and breakdown, or phenylalanine net balance across the leg. We conclude that oral androstenedione does not increase plasma testosterone concentrations and has no anabolic effect on muscle protein metabolism in young eugonadal men.
PMID: 10634363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

From the full text of the article:

Although there was a trend for muscle protein synthesis to increase, no significant differences were found between androstenedione and control groups using two different methods (three-pool model and precursor-product approach). On the contrary, there was a trend for muscle protein breakdown to be elevated, which was entirely attributable to androstenedione intake. The trend for an increase in protein breakdown after androstenedione treatment may have been the consequence of the increase in estradiol. In fact, it has been reported that long term exposure to estrogens decreases muscle fiber size in rats (22). Overall, the trend for an increase in both protein breakdown and synthesis indicates that androstenedione tended to increase muscle protein turnover. However, the increased turnover did not lead to muscle protein anabolism, as the increase in protein breakdown exceeded the increase in protein synthesis. A similar situation takes place in catabolic states such as sepsis or burn injury, in which muscle protein breakdown is significantly elevated.

So, in the study, healthy young men with perfectly normal gonads and testosterone production who took 100mg of 4-androstenedione actually had impeded protein synthesis and were in a full catabolic, muscle wasting state.

If that isn't enough to make anyone say they wouldn't want to use 4DHEA I don't know what else to say. If you insist on using it, an RX AI like Aromasin or Arimidex daily or EOD would be required. The authors of the study theorize that because of the extremely poor oral bioavailability of androstenedione it's just converting straight to estrogen in the liver. So, a better delivery system might help -- and regardless of who claims to have the best delivery system for their oral 4DHEA products, I say put up or shut up. Let's see the test results from a study. Otherwise, go with an AI.

My recommendation would be to avoid 4DHEA altogether and instead if you wanted to stack another andro with 1DHEA, 1,4DHEA might be the better option. 1,4andro both dione and diol don't convert much to estrogen and if they do, it's a much milder form. It's very similar to testosterone, as it's based off it, and should have similar effects - plus a few added benefits like increased appetite which is great for bulking.
5 days of supplementation of just 100mg? It's hard to believe the scientists even thought a conclusion could be drawn from such a short duration and such a low dosage... I wouldn't say they "were in a full catabolic, muscle wasting state" which implies that taking 4-Andro at just 100mg for 5 days led to massive muscle loss. Very misleading. You emphasize one segment, but ignore their conclusion: "Compared to a control group, androstenedione did not affect muscle protein synthesis and breakdown, or phenylalanine net balance across the leg. We conclude that oral androstenedione does not increase plasma testosterone concentrations and has no anabolic effect on muscle protein metabolism in young eugonadal men."

So 100mg of 4-Andro taken for 5 days in men who are not suppressed didn't lead to results. These results don't apply to men who ARE suppressed, using 330mg daily which is over 3x the dosage, for 4-8 weeks which is 5-11x the duration, nor does it apply to lymphatic delivery which would result in higher blood levels. There are many variables to account for here, of which I don't have time to go into at the moment. But once more I'll say this, consider real world relevance. We have many men using over 3x this dosage for a much much longer duration and none of them are complaining about rapid muscle loss. Nor are they getting gyno and wishing they had a pharma AI.
 
pogue

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I would not recommend a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro, you would more than likely crash your Estrogen.
"Crash" your estrogen?

There are essentially no reports of estrogenic side effects experienced from 4-Andro usage, real-life reports do not show issues such as sensitive nipples, gynecomastia, water retention or bloating. Theoretically these are possible, but judging by the logs this is not a real life issue. Also, we have anecdotal reports regarding the effectiveness of 4-Andro in increasing Testosterone levels:
Scientific studies > anecdotal feedback 100% of the time. I have found countless studies showing both 4androstenedione and 4androstenedione to convert to estrogen at very high rates. There were very moderate reports of testosterone increase, but the estrogen levels were far higher than the testosterone levels, making it a mute point. Further, since there are zero studies on 4DHEA, we have no way of knowing what other metabolites it's converting in to.

I would also question the dosage used in the 4DHEA products and ask if that could account for the results you're seeing. The standard oral dosages of the original 4androstenediol products was in the 300-600mg range, while these new 4DHEA products are extremely low, around 75-100mg.

This conclusion is a bit too 'absolute' in its terms. A 16% increase in Testosterone levels over baseline is significant.
Keep in mind that you're just looking at the abstract for this study. So, even though there was a 16% increase in testosterone conversion, the conversion from androstenedione to estradiol was as high as 92.1%, while the androstenediol conversion to estradiol was 57.4% as quoted in the full text of the article.

The fact that the body reaches homeostasis after 12-weeks is not surprising at all... Of course you'd have an increase in aromatization and down-regulation of the HPTA after 3 months (12-weeks). But people who use 4-Andro are using it as a Test base, so they are already going to be suppressed from the use of other compounds, and rarely do oral-only cycles reach 12-weeks in length. So this study does not justify the use of a pharmaceutical Aromatase Inhibitor while using 4-Andro.
If the conversion rates to estrogen via androstenedione and diol didn't convince you that you need an AI using 4DHEA, consider the other data from the Andro Project study.

The diol group’s androstenedione levels increased 62% from its pretreatment value. No significant change was observed in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in total testosterone, free testosterone, and serum hormone- binding globulin. However, estrone, estradiol, and DHEAS levels significantly increased in both the dione and diol groups. In addition, both the diol and dione groups’ estrone and estradiol levels were significantly greater than the placebo group following the intervention period. In slight contrast, the diol treatment produced the most significant increase in DHEAS levels (diol, 218%; dione, 61%)
Not to mention this (which was theorized to be caused by the extremely high estrogen conversion)
In fact, the androstenedione group showed an increase of body fat on average of 3.6kg [~8lbs].
This is similar to when people say that you can over-saturate the Androgen Receptor. It's hypothetical, and extremely unlikely. There is zero proof that using several precursors which require conversion will use all available enzymes and leave you with less of the target hormone due to competition. Again, real world results run counter to this hypothesis, because we have seen multiple people get results from stacking multiple prohormones that require conversion. So we have to step back yet again and ask, even if this does occur on some level, does it have a real world impact?
This is a completely different argument than over saturating the AR. The 3b-HSD and 17-beta-HSD are a finite resource and can only convert so much prohormone before it can convert no more. This is why you can't, for example, take 2 or three grams of a prohormone and get the same results as you would if you took 2 or three grams of testosterone. Testosterone doesn't need to convert to anything via enzyme pathways to conversion to bind to the AR. If you were to take large amounts of prohormones, it would not have the same effects. We demonstrated this years ago before the prohormone ban came into effect.

But, with the majority of these compounds, like I've mentioned in my articles is that there is almost no data on them (sorry, anecdotal feedback doesn't count). How much of 4DHEA is converting to androstenedione and how much to androstenediol? Without proper studies, we have no idea. Here is a quote from Patrick Arnold from 1999 regarding the subject (and bear in mind this has to do with the dione and diol versions that were legal at the time, not the 4DHEA compound we're talking about now).

How much prohormone can one enzymatic pathway handle before the enzyme is used up and the excess prohormone becomes wasted? Also, how long before the enzymes are back to normal levels in the liver? In other words, how much 4-AD can be taken at one time and how often throughout the day should it be taken?

Unfortunately we still do not know at what dosage a saturation of receptors is reached with any of the prohormones. It certainly seems that the threshold is much higher with 3beta-HSD (transforms the 4-diols) than with 17beta-HSD (transforms the 4-diones). I have heard of dose dependent increases in effects up to a few grams a day with the diols, so it may be that either a saturation is not being reached OR unchanged diol is exerting a direct anabolic/androgenic effect.
Source: https://thinksteroids.com/articles/ask-patrick-arnold-15/

I would too, but it is not cheap to test for Nandrolone, Boldenone or '1-Testosterone' (Dihydroboldenone). Obviously Testosterone and Estrogen can be tested for rather cost effectively, but the others are not tested for in blood work outside of studies that have been done specifically on these compounds.
You're telling me Olympus Labs doesn't have the money to spare to actually test 4DHEA to see how much it's conversion to estrogen, andro dione and diol is? We're not talking about 1-test and boldenone here, just testosterone. That tells me you're not very confident in your product if you aren't willing to pony up the money to run actual blood tests on 4DHEA.

But, today is your lucky today, because I know of two people who are willing to pay for these tests for you.

Both Will Brink: http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-facts-on-testosterone-boosting-supplements/
And Price Plow: https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/blood-testing

Have offered, completely free of charge, to run blood tests on testers of these products, so Olympus Labs wouldn't have to spend a penny on it (other than maybe providing some sample bottles of the products)

5 days of supplementation of just 100mg? It's hard to believe the scientists even thought a conclusion could be drawn from such a short duration and such a low dosage... I wouldn't say they "were in a full catabolic, muscle wasting state" which implies that taking 4-Andro at just 100mg for 5 days led to massive muscle loss. Very misleading. You emphasize one segment, but ignore their conclusion: "Compared to a control group, androstenedione did not affect muscle protein synthesis and breakdown, or phenylalanine net balance across the leg. We conclude that oral androstenedione does not increase plasma testosterone concentrations and has no anabolic effect on muscle protein metabolism in young eugonadal men."
Maybe it's just me, but if I saw a peer reviewed scientific study that showed a product that inhibited protein synthesis, which was advertised to have to anabolic properties of testosterone, I would have to seriously think twice about putting that compound in my body if my goal was to gain lean muscle mass. Not to mention, my quote up above from the Andro Project study showing that test subjects increased fat mass and not muscle.

So 100mg of 4-Andro taken for 5 days in men who are not suppressed didn't lead to results. These results don't apply to men who ARE suppressed, using 330mg daily which is over 3x the dosage
You're making a false comparison. How much of that 330mg of 4DHEA converts to androstenedione? The answer is we have no idea, so it could be very high, it could be very low, or it could be variable depending on the person.


for 4-8 weeks which is 5-11x the duration, nor does it apply to lymphatic delivery which would result in higher blood levels.
Has this lymphatic delivery system being tested in a peer reviewed scientific journal?

There are many variables to account for here, of which I don't have time to go into at the moment. But once more I'll say this, consider real world relevance. We have many men using over 3x this dosage for a much much longer duration and none of them are complaining about rapid muscle loss. Nor are they getting gyno and wishing they had a pharma AI.
And I'll say again, real world results will NEVER be a match for controlled experiments by trained scientists who can control variables, look at exercise routines, look at the diet, look at blood results on a daily basis, make sure the subjects aren't supplementing with anything else that could skew the results, and on and on.

Not to mention, I have plenty of other studies showing very similar results with 4 androstenedione and diol converting to high rates of estrogen, being extremely poorly bioavailable orally, and not responding to common products like the "On Cycle Therapy" products meant to reduce estrogen, keep HDL/LDL in check, make sure DHT doesn't skyrocket, and etc. All of which I'd be happy to post if you'd like to take a look at them.
 

Hastur

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As much as I would enjoy discussing this further with you, I simply do not have the time right due to other obligations. And with the aggressive undertones I see, the time invested in discussion would be wasted, as it would likely continue back and forth ad infinitum. Cherry-picked data and re-framed quotations do not make for productive discussion. I made my points, you are of a differing opinion.
 
pogue

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As much as I would enjoy discussing this further with you, I simply do not have the time right due to other obligations. And with the aggressive undertones I see, the time invested in discussion would be wasted, as it would likely continue back and forth ad infinitum. Cherry-picked data and re-framed quotations do not make for productive discussion. I made my points, you are of a differing opinion.
It's okay. Copping out of a scientific discussion just shows how little faith you have in your own products. But, the offer still stands -- if you think 4DHEA is a worthwhile test booster, have it tested. This goes for all vendors who sell 4DHEA. You really have nothing to lose, unless the product truly converts to estrogen more than it does testosterone, which is what I suspect.

I'd also be glad to send you the full text of the studies I have so you can review the yourself. Since you accused me of cherry picking, you can see the results for yourself. It's not like I picked out the worst parts of these studies just to show 4DHEA is bad. But I couldn't find a single study that justified using a 4andro dione/diol product. Just email me (it's in my signature) and I'll send them to you. Believe me, I used to think 4 androstenediol was a good product, but after being able to go through the full studies and not just the abstracts, my opinion has changed.

One last quotation I'd like to include is from Julius Vida's famous tome Androgens and Anabolic Agents to bolster my opinion on the matter.

vida.png


But, I'll even extend the offer to the OP. splatsc300 would you be willing to have free before and after blood test results on the cycle you proposed paid for by PricePlow?
 

Hastur

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It's okay. Copping out of a scientific discussion just shows how little faith you have in your own products.
Again, the aggressive tone does not encourage me to engage in discussion.
 

NewAgeMayan

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Maybe, with the introduction of 1dhea and subsequent suppression of the HPTA, the conversion ratio of estro:test noted in the latter study changes significantly in favour of test.
 
pogue

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Again, the aggressive tone does not encourage me to engage in discussion.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I'm calling out your claims on studies of a product a company represents sells. If you don't want to engage, or try and refute the data, that's your prerogative I guess.

Maybe, with the introduction of 1dhea and subsequent suppression of the HPTA, the conversion ratio of estro:test noted in the latter study changes significantly in favour of test.
That's an interesting theory, but, without any blood work or studies, it's just that - a theory. In another study, the authors theorized:

It therefore appears that, while androstenediol can be converted to testosterone, the process of digestion and hepatic catabolism destroy much of the ingested androstenediol.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11601567

So, it's also possible that if the delivery system was better formulated, then that might help solve -- or at least reduce some of the estrogen conversion. I know that OL and HT both have delivery systems they claim are superior to past ones. HT using one called Cyclosome/Phytosome and OL using one called SEDDS. But, AFAIK, and correct me if I'm wrong, there are absolutely no studies on either of these delivery systems on the oral bioavailability of androgens either. There appears to be one on SEDDS showing a 9x better absorption rate on progesterone in animal models, but nothing on humans.

All the details are laid out in a well put together article here: https://blog.priceplow.com/supplement-news/cyclosome-liposome-cyclodextrin

So, again, if the companies that are utilizing these delivery systems believe that they are superior than their competitors, they should test them - either with a clinical double blind test at a university, or if nothing else with a few testers running blood tests before and after.
 

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On paper, yes, we are both conjecturing to some degree here. It seems that you agree to the possibility, at least, that the introduction of 1dhea into the biological environment could significantly alter the conversion ratios of 4dhea and therefore its apparently catabolic nature, such that it now promotes anabolism, or at the least is no longer muscle wasting.

It would seem that the experiences of those who use these two compounds in conjunction with one another would bear this theory out.
 
pogue

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On paper, yes, we are both conjecturing to some degree here. It seems that you agree to the possibility, at least, that the introduction of 1dhea into the biological environment could significantly alter the conversion ratios of 4dhea and therefore its apparently catabolic nature, such that it now promotes anabolism, or at the least is no longer muscle wasting.

It would seem that the use of these two compounds in conjunction with one another and the experiences of users like us would bear this theory out.
I don't agree with that at all, in fact I strongly disagree. I don't see how 1DHEA would have any effect on the conversion ratios of 4DHEA into testosterone, and once you combine the two, you have two enzymes competing for conversion to their parent hormones (1-test or testosterone) so you're quite possibility getting the enzymes saturated and getting less of the active hormone than you think you are.

However, if you are dead set on running 4DHEA, an rx AI I would consider absolutely mandatory because of it's almost inevitable conversion to estrogen. The only other times I can see 4DHEA being an advantage is prior to sex to bring back your libido from 1DHEA. I'm testing HT's 1-testosterone right now, and it has absolutely killed my libido, so 4DHEA maybe 30-60 minutes prior to sexual activity might give you a small boost of testosterone (in men or women) enough to enhance the libido.

Secondly, the original usage for androstenedione was by the GDR (East Germany) as a nasal spray prior to an event to boost testosterone levels and hence performance for around 60-120 minutes and be cleared out of the system so it wouldn't show up in a doping test. You can read more about that in Faust's Gold by Steven Ungerleider which is a fascinating read about the GDR's doping scheme -- which, incidentally, looks to have been taken up by the Russian's at the Sochi Olympics.

https://twitter.com/pogue25/status/730865553028452353

So, taking 1 serving prior to the gym might enhance your test levels and performance, but that's a big maybe.

4DHEA might also make for an awesome transdermal. But I can't talk about that here, as I got in trouble the last time I mentioned that delivery system.

But other than that, running 4DHEA daily for weeks and weeks is something I would not recommend anyone to do, unless they're trying to become a male to female transgender.
 
raul87

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Wow very interesting indeed I'm intrigued as I currently have a 4 andro hiding in my drawer. Subbing for more info and hopefully more people come in here and have a good discussion
 

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Based on my experience with only taking 1 & 4 DHEA for four days - I would believe Pogue to be providing fairly, if not 100% accurate information. Sorry but if my face is puffy and swollen while on A low sodium keto diet, an my BP is way up ... It's converting to estrogen. I didn't have any visable or discernible side effects for the duration of my time running pharmaceutical grade testosterone at 400mgs weekly for months on end... But very obvious and apparent estrogen side effects within four days taking 4-Andro... Some people may have a different reaction and everyone bodies react differently. That said, going into the unknown, since their is no real solid scientific proof of the actual conversion rate, 4-Andro without a pharmaceutical grade AI/Anti Estrogen seems like playing with fire. Thank god I have two doctors appointments tomorrow.
 
Vikingbro

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Subbed for info too. Can anyone else chime in on this with facts/blood work post 1/4 andro cycle for this discussion
 

Canes325

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In for you smart people to continue arguing and educating...
 
pogue

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As I mentioned, I would be happy to provide the studies I used to base my data on. I was honestly shocked to read the studies, because back in the early 2000s, the andro class of compounds were considered fairly safe and good mass builders - 4 androstenediol especially. So, when I see these studies that are just showing horrendous results in trial subjects, I couldn't believe it. I kept digging for anything that would show androstenedione and androstenediol in a positive light that might have some benefits on something, but I could not find a thing.

If a group of maybe 6-10 people ran 4DHEA for a period of 4 weeks for example and got blood testing, like the kind Priceplow is offering to do for free. Before the cycle, during the cycle, and after the cycle we could see the actual percentage of how much the compound is converting to estrogen and testosterone. IMO, the companies making these products should be doing these exact kind of trials. But, the fact that they aren't is a bit telling to me.

1DHEA and 1,4DHEA I could see as potentially beneficial substances. 19-nor-DHEA, which I also wrote an article about and found only 2 studies showing no benefits on 19-nor-androstenedione and 19-nor-androstenediol also leads me to believe that this compound isn't worth it either, at least not at the price it's being sold at.

So, as I said in my 19nor article: I call on the companies to back up your claims. If you are confident in your delivery systems, test them. If you are confident your compounds are converting to what you say they are, let's get blood tests on them. And if you are confident that they are useful for building lean muscle mass and losing fat, run a clinical study.

Until then, we are all guinea pigs for these compounds that we have absolutely no idea what they're doing in the human body. Beyond 1 study on 1DHEA showing it improved muscle mass at the cost of the health of the testers, and another German study showing all the metabolites of 1DHEA, there is ZERO data on these compounds. And again I say, no, logging doesn't count.
 
raul87

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This should probably be a thread on its own I'm sure a lot of guys see the title and don't bother coming in since it's been asked many times
 

Dubc1231

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Nothing else on this subject after 2 years? I’m currently on a 1/4 Andro liquid stack by ams. 2.5 weeks in..
 

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