Are there any studies on Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione (the OTC AI)?

[pogue]

I see a lot of companies selling Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione in their PCT formulas and advertising it as an AI. But, I can't seem to find any data anywhere outside of review sites detailing it as an AI. Where does the information come that it inhibits aromatase? Is it just theoretical?

One article I found linked called "Identification of steroid derivatives that function as potent antiandrogens." supposedly mentions it, but in the context of an anti-androgen and I can't even find Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione listed in the article unless it's some vague nomenclature.

Any info would be appreciated!

 

[AnabolicGuru]

It's never done anything for me or anybody I know

 

[pogue]

I think I found it. In vitro study.

Synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogs as conformational and catalytic probes for the active site of aromatase.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8035427

 

[dave39]

Supplement companies can say their herbs and dirt make you put on 30lbs of muscle in one week if they want. The FDA doesn't regulate supplements so it's just a pool of misinformation and false promises. Supplement companies just need to make sure their products are "safe" to use. It's ALL about the Benjamins!!
There will be some reps on here who link some bs wonder studies for you though. Just give them time.

 

[Volvo140G]

Arimistane?

Have heard from some solid members here its done zero from an AI standpoint confirmed via bloods. I think one saw increase prolactin.

Ive ways avoided it, never saw any positive benefit from running it...

 

[pogue]

Supplement companies can say their herbs and dirt make you put on 30lbs of muscle in one week if they want. The FDA doesn't regulate supplements so it's just a pool of misinformation and false promises. Supplement companies just need to make sure their products are "safe" to use. It's ALL about the Benjamins!!
There will be some reps on here who link some bs wonder studies for you though. Just give them time.

Right, I understand that. But, this isn't exactly one of those compounds you can really categorize as a supplement, per se. People are marketing it as a true blue aromatase inhibitor that people are relying on for PCT to get their estrogen levels down and testosterone levels back up. Or running it along with highly estrogenic compounds thinking that it will stop or slow aromatization.

If there is no data on it, then people who are using it for that purpose should be made aware of that. I obviously can't say supplement companies are going to change their ways, but this is one of those circumstances while they're being highly deceitful if they know they're putting something in their PCT and cycle support supplements and it does nothing. People are going to end up with gyno and other feminizing effects if they're relying on it for that, and that's not okay.

Arimistane?

Have heard from some solid members here its done zero from an AI standpoint confirmed via bloods. I think one saw increase prolactin.

Ive ways avoided it, never saw any positive benefit from running it...

But, Nutriverse advertises and sells products that contain it in their store? Are you okay with that?

 

[linuxjon]

Right, I understand that. But, this isn't exactly one of those compounds you can really categorize as a supplement, per se. People are marketing it as a true blue aromatase inhibitor that people are relying on for PCT to get their estrogen levels down and testosterone levels back up. Or running it along with highly estrogenic compounds thinking that it will stop or slow aromatization.

If there is no data on it, then people who are using it for that purpose should be made aware of that. I obviously can't say supplement companies are going to change their ways, but this is one of those circumstances while they're being highly deceitful if they know they're putting something in their PCT and cycle support supplements and it does nothing. People are going to end up with gyno and other feminizing effects if they're relying on it for that, and that's not okay.



But, Nutriverse advertises and sells products that contain it in their store? Are you okay with that?

You need to get the idea out of your head that ethics are involved in marketing this stuff- even from the best companies.

Even when the hardcore PH/DH stuff was still on the open market, companies were selling them and advertising their OTC PCT and cycle support alongside them as a "complete stack" for what you'd need.

I get that it's a sticky situation. If your PH/DS is somehow technically legal, but there is no legal substance that's an effective PCT for your product... What do you do? Tell your customers to go illegally purchase an RX?

 

[pogue]

You need to get the idea out of your head that ethics are involved in marketing this stuff- even from the best companies.

Even when the hardcore PH/DH stuff was still on the open market, companies were selling them and advertising their OTC PCT and cycle support alongside them as a "complete stack" for what you'd need.

I get that it's a sticky situation. If your PH/DS is somehow technically legal, but there is no legal substance that's an effective PCT for your product... What do you do? Tell your customers to go illegally purchase an RX?

Pretty shoddy excuse, IMO.

In my experience, all the gray area supplement sales typically work the same way. Look at a bottle of PHs and what does it normally say on the bottle? Nothing but a long legal disclaimer and vague directions to take 1-2 tablets per day. They don't make any claims or anything like that. They essentially can't advertise because that's just how the the supplement industry works with compounds that technically shouldn't be legal under the DSHEA.

So, that's why forums exist and people who are unaffiliated with the companies can write articles for websites/magazines explaining what the compound is and what you're "really" supposed to do when running a cycle.

Selling people false hope and making claims that a product will block estrogen when it doesn't -- and potentially worse according to what other people are saying in this thread is morally bankrupt. This isn't something on the same level of Cell Tech ads you used to see with guys who have obviously been using gear for years and claiming you can gain 30lbs of muscle and bull**** like that. Probably everyone when they first get started falls for these ads, wastes $50, doesn't see results and learns their lesson they can't trust ads in muscle magazines.

This is different. If this stuff doesn't truly work as an AI in the slightest, it is flagrantly misleading and deceptive to take advantage of ignorant and naive people and is going to end up giving people truly negative results that might be permanent, like gynecomastia and all the other negative effects from not using a proper PCT or running highly estrogenic substances without anything that's going to prevent that conversion to estrogen.

I take a libertarian viewpoint that people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, but if the substance isn't what it says it is or doesn't work as advertised then people need to know about that. If companies aren't going to be honest about what they're selling, then the community should put the word out that it doesn't work and they need to avoid it and use a real PCT.

 

[dave39]

Pretty shoddy excuse, IMO.

In my experience, all the gray area supplement sales typically work the same way. Look at a bottle of PHs and what does it normally say on the bottle? Nothing but a long legal disclaimer and vague directions to take 1-2 tablets per day. They don't make any claims or anything like that. They essentially can't advertise because that's just how the the supplement industry works with compounds that technically shouldn't be legal under the DSHEA.

So, that's why forums exist and people who are unaffiliated with the companies can write articles for websites/magazines explaining what the compound is and what you're "really" supposed to do when running a cycle.

Selling people false hope and making claims that a product will block estrogen when it doesn't -- and potentially worse according to what other people are saying in this thread is morally bankrupt. This isn't something on the same level of Cell Tech ads you used to see with guys who have obviously been using gear for years and claiming you can gain 30lbs of muscle and bull**** like that. Probably everyone when they first get started falls for these ads, wastes $50, doesn't see results and learns their lesson they can't trust ads in muscle magazines.

This is different. If this stuff doesn't truly work as an AI in the slightest, it is flagrantly misleading and deceptive to take advantage of ignorant and naive people and is going to end up giving people truly negative results that might be permanent, like gynecomastia and all the other negative effects from not using a proper PCT or running highly estrogenic substances without anything that's going to prevent that conversion to estrogen.

I take a libertarian viewpoint that people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, but if the substance isn't what it says it is or doesn't work as advertised then people need to know about that. If companies aren't going to be honest about what they're selling, then the community should put the word out that it doesn't work and they need to avoid it and use a real PCT.

The supplement industry is morally bankrupt, that won't change.
It's up to the consumer to do their research because the only research you'll find from supplement companies is stuff that backs their product claims and leads to increased sales.
Apparently some people have success using this compound as an AI, but they probably don't have anything other than "feelings" to support their success.

 

[Danes]

Supplement companies can say their herbs and dirt make you put on 30lbs of muscle in one week if they want. The FDA doesn't regulate supplements so it's just a pool of misinformation and false promises. Supplement companies just need to make sure their products are "safe" to use. It's ALL about the Benjamins!!
There will be some reps on here who link some bs wonder studies for you though. Just give them time.

"Supplement companies just need to make sure their products are "safe" to use."

Even this is not needed. Some companies does not care about safety at all

 

[pogue]

The supplement industry is morally bankrupt, that won't change.
It's up to the consumer to do their research because the only research you'll find from supplement companies is stuff that backs their product claims and leads to increased sales.
Apparently some people have success using this compound as an AI, but they probably don't have anything other than "feelings" to support their success.

And that's why the FDA keeps taking away all our good products. Companies are just out for their own interests.

 

[Dma378]

I've also seen Arimistane marketed as cortisol control. Can't find a single study on that either.

 

[linuxjon]

And that's why the FDA keeps taking away all our good products. Companies are just out for their own interests.

To be fair, I *sort of* get why the FDA does what it does. If you could walk into a local vitamin store and buy Superdrol, which is certainly "good stuff", you'll end up with tons of uninformed consumers doing serious damage to themselves. That's not the supplement company's fault. That's the reality when you're selling an extremely powerful compounds over the counter to people who may or may not know how to properly use them.

I actually think what the supplement companies did with preworkouts is a far better example of being reckless with consumer health than anything on the AAS side.

 

[pogue]

To be fair, I *sort of* get why the FDA does what it does. If you could walk into a local vitamin store and buy Superdrol, which is certainly "good stuff", you'll end up with tons of uninformed consumers doing serious damage to themselves. That's not the supplement company's fault. That's the reality when you're selling an extremely powerful compounds over the counter to people who may or may not know how to properly use them.

I actually think what the supplement companies did with preworkouts is a far better example of being reckless with consumer health than anything on the AAS side.

I think that's probably a fair argument also. Although I must admit I love all the amphetamine analogues in preworkouts, they are not safe for the general public -- or at least some of them aren't. But, this is all just another side effect of FDA regulation of ephedrine in the first place. If they hadn't banned one of the safer and reliable thermogenics - ephedra/ephedrine, then none of the crazy amphetamine like compounds would have ended up in preworkouts in the first place, more than likely.

https://storify.com/pogue/amphetamine-analogues-in-preworkouts